New 6th Edition Shadowrun has been announced. Lets talk about it

[Akisa]

So lets talk about 6th edition
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WtcHfpf5SQU

and Twitch of the announcement done by freelancers who done work for Shadowrun.

https://www.twitch.tv/shadowcastersnetwork

edit pasted wrong link

Edit 2:
Podcast for Shadowrun 6th Edition (https://arcologypodcast.shadowcasters.network/2019/04/30/special-episode-shadowrun-sixth-world-edition/?platform=hootsuite)

Edit 3 1May19
New AMA for Shadowrun 6th Ed by Shadow Caster Network (https://www.twitch.tv/shadowcastersnetwork)

[Particle_Man]

The first link seems to indicate that it is an April Fool’s joke. Do you want us to talk about the joke, or about a possible 6th edition of the game?

[John Campbell]

Unless it returns to the variable-TN dice pool mechanic, I'm not interested.

[Akisa]

The first link seems to indicate that it is an April Fool’s joke. Do you want us to talk about the joke, or about a possible 6th edition of the game?

I posted wrong link by mistake, and I placed a correction. The announcement was made by people who write for Catalyst labs, so take it for what's wroth. But It's more to talk about the 6th edition that was announced with rules book coming out around Gencon.

[Ignimortis]

Here's my short list of what I gleaned from the video:

No limits
No Force - you just decide on parameters (damage, radius, etc.) of your spell before casting it
Edge is reset each scene, has new effects, gained by assuming a superior position over opponents
Situational modifiers are gone - I have a feeling that CGL tied that into edge and almost everything that used to give clear-cut advantages in various situations will now award edge
Matrix is different again, no marks - you just see the device and hack it Recoil is basically integrated now, bursts deal more damage but are harder to hit
No Drain Resist - you take the difference between Drain Value, modified by whatever you decided to do to your spell, and subtract your Spellcasting hits from that. Take what remains (if anything) as drain. Depending on drain codes, this will either be a full Magicrun edition or a game where a mage can't really cast more than 5-6 spells per run
Counterspelling is passive and is based off Spellcasting with no special skill
Healing is limited to 3 per day per category: Magical, First Aid, Medkit. Can be applied in any order, too
Vehicle rules changed again - since there are no limits, there's no need for dumb 5e vehicle stats


Funny thing is...all the good stuff was basically already in 4e, I think? And all the ambiguous stuff is...ambiguous, and doesn't really seem too good.

[Corsair14]

I heard they are including an Abacus to help keep track of dice pools. Instructions on how to use it in Mandarin.

[LibraryOgre]

https://www.shadowrunsixthworld.com/

The webpage

[Delta]

Funny thing is...all the good stuff was basically already in 4e, I think? And all the ambiguous stuff is...ambiguous, and doesn't really seem too good.

Yeah a lot of it looks a bit like a rollback.

Mostly interested in seeing how the new Edge mechanic works now, that could be a huge gamechanger to the "feel" of the game, as far as combat is concerned.

[Morty]

This could possibly be an edition of Shadowrun that lets me play in its setting without giving me a headache when I try to create a character. I guess I'll keep an eye on it.

[Akisa]

From Shadow Caster Network discord:


Ozz (Join the Anarchy)Today at 12:26 PM
@everyone Tonight is a big night for Shadowrun 6E!

8pm EST: Line developer Jason Hardy will be interviewed LIVE - get an opportunity to ask your questions and discuss in chat!

THEN

9:30pm EST: A LIVE Actual Play of Shadowrun 6E! GM Mr. Johnson (Arcology Podcast) runs Shadowrun allstars Bobby (Complex Action), Opti (Neo-Anarchist Podcast), Austin Rusk (GM of Crit Squad), and Sarah Krause (producer of Rem Alternis) through a multi-episode campaign series that will carry us up to the CRB's release at GenCon!

Watch live on our Twitch - ShadowcastersNetwork

[Delta]

This could possibly be an edition of Shadowrun that lets me play in its setting without giving me a headache when I try to create a character. I guess I'll keep an eye on it.

Depending on what exactly causes you headaches, don't bet on it. It's still Shadowrun, throughout 6 editions, the rules have been exceedingly complex and complicated for 30 years now, and judging from the video, 6 won't reinvent the wheel, it will build on the same core used by 4 and 5 with some modifications.

[Morty]

Depending on what exactly causes you headaches, don't bet on it. It's still Shadowrun, throughout 6 editions, the rules have been exceedingly complex and complicated for 30 years now, and judging from the video, 6 won't reinvent the wheel, it will build on the same core used by 4 and 5 with some modifications.

Could be, but it doesn't cost me much to see if it's true.

[CharonsHelper]

It might actually make me interested in the system?

Shadowrun always seemed to be a system that was very much style>substance. I always loved its vibe - but its mechanics are mediocre.

The biggest thing that they really need to fix, which has been endemic in every edition - is that there are too many times when one character takes the spotlight and all of the other players are stuck twiddling their thumbs for 20-30 minutes. Like whenever 1-2 characters start decking.

If something is going on at the table, 99% of the time it should either be very quick and/or include everyone to some degree. Not everyone has to be equally potent in every scene, but waiting around as a mage, adept, or street samurai while the decker does his schtick gets old fast. When combat breaks out the decker is sub-par, but at least he can contribute.

Maybe something where the decker can bring tag-alongs on his decking adventures who get lesser abilities? I don't have an easy fix - but that doesn't make it any less of an issue.

But I have always loved the Shadowrun vibe. I'll be hoping that it's able to keep the vibe and finally fix the crunch.

[Delta]

I don't want to sound too pessimistic, but I feel I can pretty much guarantee 6e will fix exactly none of those problems. Maybe matrix stuff will be a bit faster, maybe combat a bit less convoluted, sure, but it will still be an extremely crunch-heavy game with a billion moving parts and options, because that's what Shadowrun is, and from what (little, admittedly) has been known so far, this won't change the essence of that.

If you want a more rules-light alternative, maybe take a look at Shadowrun: Anarchy?

[CharonsHelper]

I don't want to sound too pessimistic, but I feel I can pretty much guarantee 6e will fix exactly none of those problems. Maybe matrix stuff will be a bit faster, maybe combat a bit less convoluted, sure, but it will still be an extremely crunch-heavy game with a billion moving parts and options, because that's what Shadowrun is, and from what (little, admittedly) has been known so far, this won't change the essence of that.

If you want a more rules-light alternative, maybe take a look at Shadowrun: Anarchy?

If you were talking to me - I don't need rules light. Crunchier systems are fine - it's just the extended solo play that bothers me.

Maybe (off the top of my head) the decker's buddies could run his viral programs more efficiently than if they were automated? Something like that - just to keep them engaged.

[Delta]

Problem is that the very basic design choices of Shadowrun prevent them from doing something like that.

A non-magical character will not accompany the mage on an astral scouting trip. A non-techie will never help the decker in any way while he hacks the mainframe. The troll sammy will always stay behind when the infiltration adept wallruns, jumps, crawls past the high security gizmos and so on.

All of that is stuff you can somewhat alleviate by clever adventure design to a certain point, but in the end, Shadowrun is a game of highly specialized characters working in a team, so when it comes down to it, a lot of the time, the specialists will always be on their own when their number is called. And since the rules will always be amazingly complex, it will take a while until they've finished whatever they're doing.

[Delta]

Having watched the AMA on the Shadowcasters Network, yeah, this is still very much Shadowrun-y as known from 5.

It seems like a bit of a partial rollback, new Matrix sounds like a mix of 4 and 5 (no more marks, a proper hack takes a lot of time, but you can still brute force your way in, sounds exactly like 4, but with grids, GODs, Overwatch score etc.), massively reduced skill list sounds a lot like good old SR2 (most of the things that were skill groups in 4/5 are now reduced to being one skill), biggest change seems to be combat, where Edge plays a large role as a "back and forth" kind of resource, replacing all situational modifiers (no more "Oh, he has cover, so that's a -2, or was it -3?" now it's "He has cover, so he gets an Edge" or smth similar), weapons now have an "attack score" and armor gives a bonus to "defense score", and if there's a significant difference of attack vs. defense, the better one gets an Edge.

So yeah, if you didn't like "Jason Hardy's Shadowrun" so far, chances are you won't like this either.

[Akisa]

This line from discord today has me worried.

Mr. JohnsonToday at 1:34 PM
A Katana does exactly the same damage in the hands of a Str 1 character as it does in the hands of Str 10

[Cluedrew]

I don't play ShadowRun, but that doesn't strike me as a particular problem. Why is weapon damage not scaling with strength an issue? Especially since it seems to be a slashing weapon which would benefit less from it in reality.

Otherwise, I think ShadowRun needs to do something about the down time of off beat characters for me to get excited about it. I might look at the base rules for ideas, my home-brew system also used d6 dice pools.

[Akisa]

Some docs recording what been compiled
(https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ZPN1-6xfGD9SV6xD85eaJIWoNq0NcsBdE3CQI8s5rJU/edit#heading=h.h701ncsxs7zi)

[Ignimortis]

Some docs recording what been compiled
(https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ZPN1-6xfGD9SV6xD85eaJIWoNq0NcsBdE3CQI8s5rJU/edit#heading=h.h701ncsxs7zi)

And from what it says, 6e is a trash fire. CGL exceeded my expectations...in that I couldn't believe they would mess up even more. Most of these changes are ridiculous. Combat specialists are now a dead role - you don't need anything but BOD to soak well, and you don't get enough actions to warrant investing into initiative bonuses. Might as well be a full mage, sustain Increase Reflexes (Focused Concentration seems to be even more broken for what it's worth), spam spirits and win the game.

[Delta]

Well it's Shadowrun. Creating two new, bigger problems for every single one you're trying to solve is a time honored tradition.

Skill system sounds more and more like good old SR2, short skill list (one "Firearm" skill to rule them all), with both Specialisations and "Expertises" as an even more focused version.

[Delta]

I don't play ShadowRun, but that doesn't strike me as a particular problem. Why is weapon damage not scaling with strength an issue? Especially since it seems to be a slashing weapon which would benefit less from it in reality.

Well it becomes a problem when unarmed combat damage is still based on strength and it leads to stuff like an 8 to 9 foot tall troll doing more damage with his fist than with a two-handed hammer, that's just dumb.

[Cluedrew]

Troll: "The hammer the doctor uses to check my knees is bigger than this."

[DigoDragon]

All of that is stuff you can somewhat alleviate by clever adventure design to a certain point, but in the end, Shadowrun is a game of highly specialized characters working in a team, so when it comes down to it, a lot of the time, the specialists will always be on their own when their number is called. And since the rules will always be amazingly complex, it will take a while until they've finished whatever they're doing.

I agree with this. Having run many adventures, there's only so much you can do to design an adventure for everyone to participate in together. Often the team breaks up into subgroups or individuals to work their specialties so someone is going to be sitting there waiting their turn. Experience be told, my best groups were ones where the team wasn't so specialized--they would cross-class into each other's skills so that they had the ability to stay together more often, or at least work in bigger subgroups. Downside is they were overall weaker than specialists, but I found it easier to adjust the enemy's skill level than worry if the street sam had something to do while the hacker was spending the next 40 minutes breaking into a corp node.

[druid91]

Which is largely why I like 4e hacking. It's a skill roll. That's it.

Honestly, I doubt this will be able to pull me away from 4e shadowrun.

[Fable Wright]

Problem is that the very basic design choices of Shadowrun prevent them from doing something like that.

A non-magical character will not accompany the mage on an astral scouting trip. A non-techie will never help the decker in any way while he hacks the mainframe. The troll sammy will always stay behind when the infiltration adept wallruns, jumps, crawls past the high security gizmos and so on.

All of that is stuff you can somewhat alleviate by clever adventure design to a certain point, but in the end, Shadowrun is a game of highly specialized characters working in a team, so when it comes down to it, a lot of the time, the specialists will always be on their own when their number is called. And since the rules will always be amazingly complex, it will take a while until they've finished whatever they're doing.

Actually, you know what? There have been systems designed to make extended solo missions (a) not take forever and (b) relevant to character building. The Mind's Eye Theater Werewolf game had a good mechanic for this: you had a certain number of downtime actions, and they could be used to do various things like acquire gear, deals, or go on an extended solo quest. Because it was designed for a LARP, the mechanics were streamlined, and the results were determined by chop of rock paper scissors and then you would tell if you got a consequence and/or succeeded in your objective. Players could leverage abilities to decrease the difficulties.

You could provide rules to put the hacking and astral projection sequences in as one roll with various modifiers, no retries, and when that's done it's time for the next infiltration action. No endless foot dragging for endless sequences, you get the results and craft the narrative around it, and it's simple and workable and doesn't bog things down more than D&D initiative. It could work. It could be streamlined.

It just takes a good design team, and Catalyst isn't that

[DigoDragon]

Which is largely why I like 4e hacking. It's a skill roll. That's it.

Honestly, I doubt this will be able to pull me away from 4e shadowrun.

Yes, everyone on the team could technically have the hacking skill. No, no one is going to be anywhere near as good as the actual team hacker. However, a party could take a page from the movie Hackers and all log in at once like a DDoS attack. Matrix security is gonna boot off the party in short order, but every action it spends attacking personas/avatars from the general party is an action it isn't spending on your actual hacker to get in and do some real damage.

It gives everyone something to do, and what runner doesn't enjoy being an annoyance to The Man? :smalltongue:

[Cluedrew]

It just takes a good design team, and Catalyst isn't thatAlso after a certain amount of editions I think the urge to make an serious changes goes down. I mean you might make changes that bring in new players or you might loose the old players or you might put in tons of work for no effect. The biggest system overhaul I can think of is D&D 4e and that is not inspiring confidence. ... I still wish more people would.

Because yeah, even if the star of the show changed each time as long as the other players can contribute enough that you can tell they are contributing that's fine. It keeps everyone involved and give a bit more space for everyone to work together.

[Delta]

It just takes a good design team, and Catalyst isn't that

Not only that, it would take a team willing to make a game that's totally and completely different from anything Shadowrun has been for three decades. I can understand they do not want to do that.

(for the record, I do not disagree with your statement at all, Shadowrun has always been plagued by a lot of problem and the last time I think the game overall took a step in the right direction was the early days of 4, I was pretty unimpressed by 5 and don't think what I've seen from 6 that it will impress me any more)

[Florian]

I don't play ShadowRun, but that doesn't strike me as a particular problem. Why is weapon damage not scaling with strength an issue? Especially since it seems to be a slashing weapon which would benefit less from it in reality.

Because in a sense, SR went full reverse in the arms race. The archetypes of Street Samurai or Razorgirl became a thing because a fully cybered/adepted meta-human could go toe-to-toe with the finest high tech weaponry mankind had to offer while chrome/magic worked best at expressing raw power in the form of blades, tomahawks and bows.

As for the overall topic, cannot say that I'm too excited. Been playing SR sind 1st edition and rules got more complex since then, I feel that in-between 4th, 5th and the upcoming 6th, they try to balance out the whole inconsistencies the system accrued without wanting to reduce the complexity level. Had high hopes for Anarchy, but alas....

[Delta]

To be honest, having watched the 2nd session of the actual play on Shadowcasters, I'm not particularly impressed.

I mean, considering on what a short timeframe this was announced (even catching quite a few people involved in the game by surprise) it's not too shocking the realize this wasn't really tested in-depth, but if you're already discussing how you might want to houserule damage ratings and armor only two sessions in isn't making a great impression, a lot of stuff seems to be all over the place (not that older editions were incredibly well-balanced, to be fair)

[DigoDragon]

Also after a certain amount of editions I think the urge to make an serious changes goes down. I mean you might make changes that bring in new players or you might loose the old players or you might put in tons of work for no effect. The biggest system overhaul I can think of is D&D 4e and that is not inspiring confidence. ... I still wish more people would.

What if they rip out a lot of the mechanics and streamline it like D&D did in 5e? I feel that SR could use a similar rules treatment.

[Delta]

What if they rip out a lot of the mechanics and streamline it like D&D did in 5e? I feel that SR could use a similar rules treatment.

Yeah I'd buy that in a heartbeat. I had hoped Anarchy to be something like that but never really liked it as much as I hoped.

[Ignimortis]

What if they rip out a lot of the mechanics and streamline it like D&D did in 5e? I feel that SR could use a similar rules treatment.

While they seem to advertise SR 6e to 5e as "what 5e was to 3.5 D&D", I remain very sceptical. Shutting down whole concepts (it's official, Hardy himself said that tanks are no longer supported as character concept) and not fixing the internal problems with the system and the underlying problems with the setting which beget the mechanical problems isn't advancement. Then again, I don't like D&D 5e either, because it doesn't do what 3.5 did when you locked all the cheesy wizards and useless fighters in the cellar and just played the good middle-of-the-road classes instead.

[Delta]

While they seem to advertise SR 6e to 5e as "what 5e was to 3.5 D&D", I remain very sceptical.

Yeah, that's along the lines they like to use, but honestly, if you watch any of the stuff that's already out there, it just... isn't. Whether it's combat, magic or matrix, a simple, quick, beginner-friendly system SR6 is not. It's still an amazingly complicated game with convoluted subsystems, and even worse, now it's convoluted subsystems some of which are really based around a new concept of back and forth of Edge replacing modifiers and stuff, while others are still clearly designed without giving that a second thought and using Edge like it has been in SR4 and 5, so now the spending of Edge has been designed around the idea of a constant flow of Edge so everything is much more expensive, while only very specific parts of the game have been actually designed around giving you a way to actually gain Edge that way.

It just seems like they had this whole idea of a more abstract, Edge-centric, conflict-driven system which does indeed sound promising but at some point just stopped and bolted the rest of the system onto that which is just SR4/5 with some minor tweaks.

[DigoDragon]

Yeah I'd buy that in a heartbeat. I had hoped Anarchy to be something like that but never really liked it as much as I hoped.

I looked at Anarchy and it felt to me like it wanted to be rules-lite, but halfway through it got nervous and backed off that goal.



While they seem to advertise SR 6e to 5e as "what 5e was to 3.5 D&D", I remain very sceptical. Shutting down whole concepts (it's official, Hardy himself said that tanks are no longer supported as character concept) and not fixing the internal problems with the system and the underlying problems with the setting which beget the mechanical problems isn't advancement. Then again, I don't like D&D 5e either, because it doesn't do what 3.5 did when you locked all the cheesy wizards and useless fighters in the cellar and just played the good middle-of-the-road classes instead.

What I like about 5e is the fewer situational bonuses and penalties you have to deal with. Advantage/Disadvantage covers a lot of those. Some friends of mine complain that 5e feels less powerful and that's a fair criticism since you have this "bounded accuracy" concept that limits the upper ends of stats and DCs. But I like that it's easier to put together a group of PCs, get into the game quickly, and be able to fight reasonable challenges at most levels without needing to specialize hard in something.

That's what I'd hope for a new edition of SR to do. Building characters takes a while, and there's always those odd-duck builds that give a huge dice pool to potentially one-shot most targets on either side. In some SR editions, like 4e, you really had to specialize those dice pools to survive.

[The Glyphstone]

This sounds like they took Shadowrun and tried to bolt the FATE engine's system of Fate Points onto it, renaming them Edge.

[Man_Over_Game]

It might actually make me interested in the system?

Shadowrun always seemed to be a system that was very much style>substance. I always loved its vibe - but its mechanics are mediocre.

The biggest thing that they really need to fix, which has been endemic in every edition - is that there are too many times when one character takes the spotlight and all of the other players are stuck twiddling their thumbs for 20-30 minutes. Like whenever 1-2 characters start decking.

If something is going on at the table, 99% of the time it should either be very quick and/or include everyone to some degree. Not everyone has to be equally potent in every scene, but waiting around as a mage, adept, or street samurai while the decker does his schtick gets old fast. When combat breaks out the decker is sub-par, but at least he can contribute.

Maybe something where the decker can bring tag-alongs on his decking adventures who get lesser abilities? I don't have an easy fix - but that doesn't make it any less of an issue.

But I have always loved the Shadowrun vibe. I'll be hoping that it's able to keep the vibe and finally fix the crunch.

For Decking/Astral Traveling, It'd probably be best to simplify both systems to have the results be near-instant (most scenarios where they're relevant, they're practically near-instant in universe-time anyway), and then provide some kind of long-term, real-life benefit for maintaining their connection to the other side.

Make it so that Decking is dramatically shortened to a few short rolls to determine what things he can interact with, and then he provides benefits for each real-life round. For example, he determines his level of access upon initially Decking, and then he can modify a number of things in real life based on his level of access, whether that be alarms, turrets, communications systems, whatever. If he needs to gain more access, or if he wants to try and brute force a solution for more access at the cost of higher risks, he can do that. So he initiates by hacking the system, gets an Access level of 4 and a Risk level of 3, uses his access to start controlling turrets (Cost 3) and sensors (Cost 1) for his team that's moving past the access point. He plays in real-time like everyone else, and manages Access vs. Risk on his own turns.

But they really need to shift away from having different speed levels. Have everything be based around real-time, keep the specifics of the weird stuff really simple, and allow them to add benefits that apply to the real-world. This ensures that nobody is hogging the spotlight, and everyone's relevant in the same time-zone.

The problem is, this dramatically simplifies how Decking and Astral Travelling works, but...that's the cost of making the game work, right? Shadowrun's starting to become kinda obscure, and they gotta find a way to fix the problems they keep repeating.

[Particle_Man]

More a setting question than a system one: Are Obsidimen (from Earthdawn) likely to show up?

[Delta]

More a setting question than a system one: Are Obsidimen (from Earthdawn) likely to show up?

I'd be shocked if they ever showed up as PCs or anything.

I know that T'Skrang-like creatures have been mentioned (as "Chupacabras") in the jungles of Madagascar, and I could imagine that at some point a similarly obscure reference to Obisidmen shows up somewhere (or maybe even has, I can't claim to know every sourcebook released in the last decade or so by heart), but probably not ever as a relevant thing in the setting.

[SaurOps]

I'd be shocked if they ever showed up as PCs or anything.

I know that T'Skrang-like creatures have been mentioned (as "Chupacabras") in the jungles of Madagascar, and I could imagine that at some point a similarly obscure reference to Obisidmen shows up somewhere (or maybe even has, I can't claim to know every sourcebook released in the last decade or so by heart), but probably not ever as a relevant thing in the setting.

Given the description in Cyberpriates of chupacabras as HMHVV-infected lemurs, I never considered that the critters were supposed to be t'skrang. Which, in all likelihood, will not show up either, as the Earthdawn IP, being under the auspices of a resurrected FASA, has had to pull hard away from Topps-owned Shadowrun.

(Also, according to post-Earthdawn Shadowrun replacement 1879, the t'skrang were from another planet but managed to migrate to Earth via a cyclical magical portal. All t'skrang on Earth died by the end of the Age of Legends, but 1879 deals with finding another connection with their world, which Victorian Britons are attempting to ruthlessly exploit with steamtech.)

[CharonsHelper]

For Decking/Astral Traveling, It'd probably be best to simplify both systems to have the results be near-instant (most scenarios where they're relevant, they're practically near-instant in universe-time anyway), and then provide some kind of long-term, real-life benefit for maintaining their connection to the other side.

...

The problem is, this dramatically simplifies how Decking and Astral Travelling works, but...that's the cost of making the game work, right? Shadowrun's starting to become kinda obscure, and they gotta find a way to fix the problems they keep repeating.

Well yeah, the two ways to make spotlighting sub-systems work are:

1. Have everyone else be able to contribute even in sub-par ways. (Shadowrun's combat does this pretty well, with the decker being able to shoot of gun for some effect but pale in comparison to what the street samurai does.)

2. Have the sub-system be fast. (A max of 2-3 minutes - and that's pushing it.)

I agree that #2 could certainly work, but it's possible that the decker might get grumpier about being so sub-par in combat if he doesn't get to hog the spotlight as much. (Pure speculation.) Maybe it'd work better if it was easier to overlap decking & rigging drones in combat so that the character would have stuff to do there?

#2 is actually the way I went with the system I'm working on for hacking & piloting etc. But they aren't things that a character has to be fully dedicated to, leaving them sub-par in fighting monstrous aliens or space pirates.

[Telwar]

Given the description in Cyberpriates of chupacabras as HMHVV-infected lemurs, I never considered that the critters were supposed to be t'skrang. Which, in all likelihood, will not show up either, as the Earthdawn IP, being under the auspices of a resurrected FASA, has had to pull hard away from Topps-owned Shadowrun.

(Also, according to post-Earthdawn Shadowrun replacement 1879, the t'skrang were from another planet but managed to migrate to Earth via a cyclical magical portal. All t'skrang on Earth died by the end of the Age of Legends, but 1879 deals with finding another connection with their world, which Victorian Britons are attempting to ruthlessly exploit with steamtech.)

I always figured that the precursors of the t'skrang were the afanc, from Paranormal Animals of Europe. That critter book had windlings, and the afanc had a suspcious range of Wales and the entire Ukraine.

I know that some of the 4e and 5e books had rumors of "stone trolls" associated with dragon lairs (and roundly derided as an urban legend), but I can't remember for the life of me which ones they were.

[SaurOps]

I always figured that the precursors of the t'skrang were the afanc, from Paranormal Animals of Europe. That critter book had windlings, and the afanc had a suspcious range of Wales and the entire Ukraine.

I'm not seeing how those go together. The t'skrang are humanoid reptiles with a wide range of clashing features (riverine preferences, beaks with teeth, flexible tails). An afanc is a crocodilian, and not even humanoid in the slightest. The habitation range doesn't even enter into it at that point.



I know that some of the 4e and 5e books had rumors of "stone trolls" associated with dragon lairs (and roundly derided as an urban legend), but I can't remember for the life of me which ones they were.

Obsidimen are a good deal shorter than trolls, though, and don't have horns or tusks. Their natural armor is also shaped very differently. It's doubtful that anyone would mistake them for trolls. On the other hand, we already have plenty of rules for spirit inhabitation of objects, such as statues, used for homunculi.

[Telwar]

I'm not seeing how those go together. The t'skrang are humanoid reptiles with a wide range of clashing features (riverine preferences, beaks with teeth, flexible tails). An afanc is a crocodilian, and not even humanoid in the slightest. The habitation range doesn't even enter into it at that point.

Like I said, *awakened* Afanc...which are of course already awakened crocs. So the idea is it's an intermediate stage.

But the range was the main thing. I've never been aware of a tradition of crocodilians in Ukraine, and to have them show up there in addition to Wales seemed rather suspicious to me.

Of course, I realize that this was unlikely. But that was an *awfully* suspicious range...




Obsidimen are a good deal shorter than trolls, though, and don't have horns or tusks. Their natural armor is also shaped very differently. It's doubtful that anyone would mistake them for trolls. On the other hand, we already have plenty of rules for spirit inhabitation of objects, such as statues, used for homunculi.

On the other hand, the people in setting reporting that they see these "stone trolls" aren't necessarily going to default to "it's a possessed object." And since nobody really sees sasquatches that often, a weird thing that you see walking around on its own accord that looks like it's made of rock, you're going to default to a troll, since that's relatively common and I don't think they'd think of orks.

[SaurOps]

Like I said, *awakened* Afanc...which are of course already awakened crocs. So the idea is it's an intermediate stage.

But the range was the main thing. I've never been aware of a tradition of crocodilians in Ukraine, and to have them show up there in addition to Wales seemed rather suspicious to me.

Of course, I realize that this was unlikely. But that was an *awfully* suspicious range...


Edit: Dropping it.



On the other hand, the people in setting reporting that they see these "stone trolls" aren't necessarily going to default to "it's a possessed object."

Well, most people would probably skip the "inhabiting an object" part of "spirit inhabiting an object" when something weird of that sort showed up. Or possibly that they're looking at a gargoyle.



And since nobody really sees sasquatches that often, a weird thing that you see walking around on its own accord that looks like it's made of rock, you're going to default to a troll, since that's relatively common and I don't think they'd think of orks.

Since when were trolls made of rock, or even vaguely in the vicinity of appearing to be made of rock? And why did you bring sasquatches into it?

[Delta]

So they had this huge countdown up with ended last night and then... nothing happened, for several hours the countdown was just looping back for the last 13 seconds, and a couple hours later suddenly a ridiculously small window popped up where you can read shadowtalk, a line at a time, about some kind of weird matrix blackout hitting big cities all across UCAS. This smells of "Oh no we completely forgot about that thing we wanted to do for our big countdown, let's just throw up a few lines of text and pretend this was the plan all along!"... I'm sorry, I really want to feel confident for this new edition but they're not making it easy :(

[Ignimortis]

So they had this huge countdown up with ended last night and then... nothing happened, for several hours the countdown was just looping back for the last 13 seconds, and a couple hours later suddenly a ridiculously small window popped up where you can read shadowtalk, a line at a time, about some kind of weird matrix blackout hitting big cities all across UCAS. This smells of "Oh no we completely forgot about that thing we wanted to do for our big countdown, let's just throw up a few lines of text and pretend this was the plan all along!"... I'm sorry, I really want to feel confident for this new edition but they're not making it easy :(

It's CGL. The best advice that can be given at this point is this: use the base rules if you're crunch-friendly enough, or any conversion if you don't want to fix the myriad problems present in every edition since the inception. Look through older lore sourcebooks like Sixth World Almanac (the new Neo-Anarchist Streetpedia is bad), and, I guess, just run whatever you want from Shadowrun without actually touching current Shadowrun.

[ErdrickOfAliaha]

Decking and keeping the party together.
Something to chew in: let deckers 'summon' ICE style minions, who are played by the other PC's, you could even have a set if archtypical independent AIs which mirrored the range of PCs, so either the street sam can be the street sam in the virtual world, or everyone could switch roles to make the RP feel/dynamic of the virtual scenes be more drastic.

This is admittedly a second place suggestion to making it instantaneous, but I think getting everyone involved is more of a priority.

Also, I haven't played SR for 20 of the 30 years since 1e was released, so if this is too out of touch and fantasy-like...well sorry.

[Delta]

Well we already know nothing like this is ever going to happen in Shadowrun 6, so not sure whether this discussion wouldn't be better suited to the general discussion thread.

I see this approach massively clashing with the general approach to how the Matrix works in Shadowrun. Sure, if your Matrix expert PC is a technoshaman who constantly throws around half a dozen sprites to do their bidding, this might work, but even then, I'd argue it'd need a massive rework of their abilities to make this even remotely interesting. And for a lot of Matrix stuff, you don't need half a dozen sprites/agents/whatever, I feel like the only way to pull this off is to make it a "very special episode" kind of thing where everyone is involved (which you in theory can already do with Ultraviolet hosts, foundation hacks and so on, if you have a group so inclined) or to make it feel very forced if you have to create every Matrix task around needing multiple characters to complete.

And from the point of view of a player simply not interested in Matrix stuff, you've actually made the problem much worse, not only making the Matrix side of thing take a lot more time than it already did but forcing them to engage in stuff they're not interested in, with very limited agency to boot.

[Glimbur]

Go completely backward of the last suggestion and let the hacker force stuff to manifest in meatspace so you can shoot it (or talk to it I guess). Would require a lot of work to make it distinctive and interesting, plus it is very jarring with the setting. But it's an idea.

[Delta]

The matrix/electronics user that uses his skills to affect technology in a way to directly and physically affect meatspace is already a thing, it's called a rigger.

[druid91]

Because in a sense, SR went full reverse in the arms race. The archetypes of Street Samurai or Razorgirl became a thing because a fully cybered/adepted meta-human could go toe-to-toe with the finest high tech weaponry mankind had to offer while chrome/magic worked best at expressing raw power in the form of blades, tomahawks and bows.

As for the overall topic, cannot say that I'm too excited. Been playing SR sind 1st edition and rules got more complex since then, I feel that in-between 4th, 5th and the upcoming 6th, they try to balance out the whole inconsistencies the system accrued without wanting to reduce the complexity level. Had high hopes for Anarchy, but alas....

Honestly, I disagree with that. While effective, melee is nowhere near the king of the battlefield in Shadowrun.

The thing is, you're not on a battlefield. You're stealth operatives and the silence of a melee weapon helps be stealthy.

[LibraryOgre]

Melee becomes effective when your strength gets high enough to be a bigger power than comparable weapons. The infamous troll with a dikoted ax, who chops Panzers out of the sky.

[druid91]

I wish them good luck with that one. Just hitting the Panzer is basically impossible. And certainly doesn't hold up against the firepower the Panzer can dish back out in return.

[Ignimortis]

I wish them good luck with that one. Just hitting the Panzer is basically impossible. And certainly doesn't hold up against the firepower the Panzer can dish back out in return.

Oh, but it does. While hitting something flying is really hard with melee (duh), if you actually hit something as a loltroll with a combat axe, phooey, this thing is going down. Let's just say that 18 BOD/18 Armor T-bird is gonna have a lot of trouble soaking all that damage, which starts at 20P and -4 AP. You can chop a car in half with that with ease.

But closer to the topic - I got my hands on the Beginner's Box, and, well, it's hilarious. All the bad things that were expected of 6e are true: mundanes are nerfed (again), mages are buffed (again), and in fact, there are very few niches left for non-magic characters now. If Technomancers prove to be not awful in the CRB, you should just probably have a non-mundane team of MysAd, Full mage, Techno and another Mysad or fullmage. Don't know if they all should be trolls, though - the quickstart seemed very weird in that none of the pregens have any stat above 6.

[DigoDragon]

All the bad things that were expected of 6e are true: mundanes are nerfed (again), mages are buffed (again), and in fact, there are very few niches left for non-magic characters now.

Well that's not very encouraging.

Any changes to the Initiative Pass system?

[Morvram]

Now, this is coming from somebody who's just starting to play 5th edition Shadowrun, so perhaps I have no room to talk here. But it seems to me that the problem with 5th edition Shadowrun isn't that it's too complicated and crunchy; it's that the book is quite possibly the most poorly edited thing I've ever encountered. If 6th edition is published by the same people and they don't hire more editors, it isn't going to matter how streamlined the actual game system is.

[Ignimortis]

Now, this is coming from somebody who's just starting to play 5th edition Shadowrun, so perhaps I have no room to talk here. But it seems to me that the problem with 5th edition Shadowrun isn't that it's too complicated and crunchy; it's that the book is quite possibly the most poorly edited thing I've ever encountered. If 6th edition is published by the same people and they don't hire more editors, it isn't going to matter how streamlined the actual game system is.

Absolutely. Better editing and layout would've solved 70% of Shadowrun 5e's jankiness.


Well that's not very encouraging.

Any changes to the Initiative Pass system?

Initiative is now D&D. You roll once per combat, that's the initiative order You get 1 major action and 2 minor actions as a base, each +1d6 of initiative also grants you +1 minor actions. You can trade 4 minor actions for a major. Attacking/spellcasting is a major action, obviously. Movement is now a minor action, as is full defense. You can't get more than 2 major actions and 1 minor due to how augmentations to initiative are supposed to work. So this basically means that a samurai attacks twice...or they have to both move and call full defense, which means they attack once. Like everyone else.

I wasn't kidding when I said mundanes were nerfed. We still don't know anything about adepts, but combat characters, in general, are nerfed severely. The days of dropping in and popping four people on your way out in 3 seconds are gone. The best you can do is two, and if you're lucky and also in possession of a burst-fire weapon while two people are close by, you can drop three...by splitting the dicepool which is obviously a bad idea, because 60%+ of your damage comes from net hits now.

[John Campbell]

Go completely backward of the last suggestion and let the hacker force stuff to manifest in meatspace so you can shoot it (or talk to it I guess). Would require a lot of work to make it distinctive and interesting, plus it is very jarring with the setting. But it's an idea.

One of the editions of Cyberpunk did that, with ice manifesting in meatspace as monsters made of nanobots, so that the netrunner's meatspace buddies could help fight it. It was very silly.


The basic problem with recent Shadowrun editions has been that, with 4E, they decided that Shadowrun was too complicated (and they kind of had a point) and needed to be simplified. Except instead of addressing the root cause of the complexity - the multitude of different, inconsistent, just-similar-enough-to-be-misleading systems, ad hoc rules for different bits of kit and magic, and complex interactions between these - they left all of that in place and "simplified" it by kneecapping the core dice mechanic. And then, in order to cover up the fact that the dice mechanic no longer worked at all outside a narrow band, they instituted a bunch of draconian hard caps and restrictions to prevent characters from ever getting outside that band - which both made it impossible for PCs to meaningfully advance, and didn't actually prevent a cunning player from getting outside the band where the dice mechanic kind of pretends to work.

Everything they've done to Shadowrun since then has been in the way of rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.

Or, if the above descriptions are accurate, going, "If we ram that iceberg again, I bet we can get through it this time!"

I'm still playing (currently running) SR3, and will be for the foreseeable future.

[Ignimortis]

One of the editions of Cyberpunk did that, with ice manifesting in meatspace as monsters made of nanobots, so that the netrunner's meatspace buddies could help fight it. It was very silly.


The basic problem with recent Shadowrun editions has been that, with 4E, they decided that Shadowrun was too complicated (and they kind of had a point) and needed to be simplified. Except instead of addressing the root cause of the complexity - the multitude of different, inconsistent, just-similar-enough-to-be-misleading systems, ad hoc rules for different bits of kit and magic, and complex interactions between these - they left all of that in place and "simplified" it by kneecapping the core dice mechanic. And then, in order to cover up the fact that the dice mechanic no longer worked at all outside a narrow band, they instituted a bunch of draconian hard caps and restrictions to prevent characters from ever getting outside that band - which both made it impossible for PCs to meaningfully advance, and didn't actually prevent a cunning player from getting outside the band where the dice mechanic kind of pretends to work.

Everything they've done to Shadowrun since then has been in the way of rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.

Or, if the above descriptions are accurate, going, "If we ram that iceberg again, I bet we can get through it this time!"

I'm still playing (currently running) SR3, and will be for the foreseeable future.

I have no idea what you're talking about. Variable TNs and dicepools for 3e and before seem way too complicated for me, and I've read the 3e corebook a few times.

The basic 4e-5e dice work just fine, and unless you go out of your way, you're not breaking anything. So what if you have 25 dice for guns? That just means you're one of the best people on Earth to shoot a gun. It doesn't make you autowin the game. Dicepool maths are actually pretty flexible, because they can represent both the lows (gangers, mallcops, civilians) and the highs (Red Samurai, special forces prime shadowrunners) well enough to make them believable.

The problem isn't that dice don't work. The problem is that CGL has, for two editions now, tried to fix things that weren't broken to begin with, or touched broken things and made them worse. Combat was mostly fine in 4e, and it got better in 5e...except for initiative passes. Matrix was kinda bad in 4e, and it got way worse in 5e. Augmentation was fine in 4e, got way worse in 5e. Magic was alright in 4e, except for Direct combat spells, and it got worse in 5e except for Direct combat spells.

[Silva]

The basic problem with recent Shadowrun editions has been that, with 4E, they decided that Shadowrun was too complicated (and they kind of had a point) and needed to be simplified. Except instead of addressing the root cause of the complexity - the multitude of different, inconsistent, just-similar-enough-to-be-misleading systems, ad hoc rules for different bits of kit and magic, and complex interactions between these - they left all of that in place and "simplified" it by kneecapping the core dice mechanic. And then, in order to cover up the fact that the dice mechanic no longer worked at all outside a narrow band, they instituted a bunch of draconian hard caps and restrictions to prevent characters from ever getting outside that band - which both made it impossible for PCs to meaningfully advance, and didn't actually prevent a cunning player from getting outside the band where the dice mechanic kind of pretends to work.
This reflects my experiences, yes. The variable target number issue was a minor one, compared to the bazillion exception-based little rules and subsystems that were unplayable or took hours to realistically resolve. It's like they had a super-heavy airplane losing altitude fast, and it was obvious they should have jettisoned the fuel or bombs to make it lighter, but instead they threw the crew away. :smalleek:

[Delta]

The basic problem with recent Shadowrun editions has been that, with 4E, they decided that Shadowrun was too complicated (and they kind of had a point) and needed to be simplified. Except instead of addressing the root cause of the complexity - the multitude of different, inconsistent, just-similar-enough-to-be-misleading systems, ad hoc rules for different bits of kit and magic, and complex interactions between these - they left all of that in place and "simplified" it by kneecapping the core dice mechanic. And then, in order to cover up the fact that the dice mechanic no longer worked at all outside a narrow band, they instituted a bunch of draconian hard caps and restrictions to prevent characters from ever getting outside that band - which both made it impossible for PCs to meaningfully advance, and didn't actually prevent a cunning player from getting outside the band where the dice mechanic kind of pretends to work.

Now while I agree in principle that they missed a lot of the underlying problems that have troubled Shadowrun throughout all editions, but, and I'm saying that as someone who has run SR2 and 3 almost exclusively for over a decade, but to claim that the variable TN dice mechanic of SR1-3 is in any way more practicable than the fixed TN of 4+ doesn't hold any water.

I will always love good old Shadowrun, but the variable TN was a nightmare of unpredictable, unfair and clunky mechanics that constantly led to ridiculous situations (you have a crunchy bit that can lower a TN by 2? If your original TN is 4 or 6, damn that's useful. 8? Not useful at all. 9-12? Oh hey it's useful again...) while stuff like open tests were so utterly random that even the best prepared super stealthed ninja could never reliably sneak by anyone because even your regular run of the mill guard always had a reasonable chance of beating him, while a properly optimized decker (especially an otaku) was for all intents and purposes almost completely undetectable by even the most advanced matrix security.

There's lots of SR4 and later not to like (and they did add a whole host of new mechanical problems, I'll never claim otherwise), and lots about SR3 and before to like, but to claim that the base dice roll mechanic was in any way more sound is just wrong.

[druid91]

Oh, but it does. While hitting something flying is really hard with melee (duh), if you actually hit something as a loltroll with a combat axe, phooey, this thing is going down. Let's just say that 18 BOD/18 Armor T-bird is gonna have a lot of trouble soaking all that damage, which starts at 20P and -4 AP. You can chop a car in half with that with ease.

But closer to the topic - I got my hands on the Beginner's Box, and, well, it's hilarious. All the bad things that were expected of 6e are true: mundanes are nerfed (again), mages are buffed (again), and in fact, there are very few niches left for non-magic characters now. If Technomancers prove to be not awful in the CRB, you should just probably have a non-mundane team of MysAd, Full mage, Techno and another Mysad or fullmage. Don't know if they all should be trolls, though - the quickstart seemed very weird in that none of the pregens have any stat above 6.

Except the part where a Melee weapon does half damage against vehicles and structures...

[Ignimortis]

Except the part where a Melee weapon does half damage against vehicles and structures...

Not sure where that rules comes from. Never found something like it, and I've read the 5e corebook more times than I'd care to count.

[DigoDragon]

Except the part where a Melee weapon does half damage against vehicles and structures...

Where do I get a car like that? :o

[druid91]

Not sure where that rules comes from. Never found something like it, and I've read the 5e corebook more times than I'd care to count.

Huh. They dropped damage rates against objects in 5e? It's from 4e. I wanna say Arsenal.

[Ignimortis]

Huh. They dropped damage rates against objects in 5e? It's from 4e. I wanna say Arsenal.

Seems so. In fact, there is no change to melee damage when attacking objects.

[DigoDragon]

Seems so. In fact, there is no change to melee damage when attacking objects.

I guess I missed that part in Arsenal, cause I always ran it as straight damage. Not like melee gets much love to begin with.

[Kyrell1978]

So, Did anyone get a hold of the core rules yet at GenCon? I'm still in the wait and see phase.

[Akisa]

So, Did anyone get a hold of the core rules yet at GenCon? I'm still in the wait and see phase.

I haven't nor got a look at the pdf upload/leak yet.

[Ignimortis]

So, Did anyone get a hold of the core rules yet at GenCon? I'm still in the wait and see phase.

Well...it's garbage, really. The corebook lacks crucial rules that you'd only know if you played 5e. All of presumptions from the leaks were actually correct, aside from the Armor spell stacking soak dice. Still, it's Magicrun all the way, which is also ruined by most non-mage being tied into the Edge system, which is...underwhelming and broken at the same time. That is to say, 4-point and 5-point Edge boosts are too powerful, but outside of them, Edge feels lame, and since you can't generate more than 2 per turn...

I've written up a comparison, anyway. It's a bit long, so I'll spoiler it.

I've been reading the book for two days and mostly comparing both to 5e RAW and to my group's houserules to it. Can't say it was a good use of my weekend, but at least I can pass it on.

Long version (TL;DR at the end):

Chargen - absolutely worse. The only reasonable decision was getting trolls out from priority gating, and even that was done crudely enough to not be worth porting over. Starting characters will be worse narratively, unless they're spellcasters, and even spellcaster will lose out on some non-magic versatility. Some Priority values are outright unplayable (Attributes E/D/possibly C, Skills E).

Skills - better than 5e RAW, worse than any reasonable houserule. Sure, Diving and 5 kinds of Mechanic needed to go. But you could keep about 40-50 skills, the game would be playable, it would have reasonable granularity, skill groups could stay for people who want them, and you could actually have a face that knows their way around handguns, but can't really operate an assault cannon. That's meaningful enough that it should've stayed, IMO.

Combat - ridiculously worse. Initiative passes and combat specialists going four (or even five) times per turn and killing someone each time are gone. Not sure why you would make a combat character who's not a grenadier or spirit summoner now, outside of pure style reasons. Maybe burnout punch adept still works, troll fist meta still strong for some reason. AK-97 on autofire doing more damage that any other gun in the game is ridiculous. Autofire giving defense penalties instead of damage was one of the best things in 5e, and it actually let people play with SS/SA weapons without everything being about "how many bullets can you throw at them".

The general motto of "weapons don't do much damage, but if you're hit, you're probably taking damage anyway" is bad. It's D&D-like hitting people with cardboard swords. Grenades are on the other extreme and pulverise everything that they touch at GZ/Close range, which, while realistic, isn't fun for anyone.

Edge-farming for killmoves (which are pretty broken, actually) is lame. I would like to be competent all the time, instead of waiting for metaphysical luck points to do their work. Full-auto weapons work better with Edge, as well.

Magic - got better (obviously, lol, it's Hardy's ShadowMagicrun we're talking about). Mystic Adepts seem to have gotten slightly worse than in 5e (if I'm interpreting errata right?), but pure Magicians are just fine. Spirits are even more broken, because autosoaking 6+ damage means you win at combat by default. If you can get a drain resist value that soaks 6 Drain reliably, you can cast everything just fine. Outliers are to spend Edge on, but most spells don't need more than 6 DV after amps/net hits to be at max effectiveness.

Adepts not getting 6 PP at chargen (might be a rules conflict, but the CRB or errata don't do anything about it) is dumb, as is considering Adepts to be as important as mages for pricing. Then again, RAW rules don't have them losing PP from losing MAG, so you can just 5 ESS burnout and then get cheap points through Initiations.

Matrix - 5e Matrix, a bit better, but still crap. Some reference to hosts sometimes being physical is appreciated, but I'll hate the idea of Foundation and non-physical hosts still, thanks. No point in going into detail, it's still bad and I'll keep thinking how to make a new set of Matrix rules. Technomancers are a bit more on even footing with Deckers, I think, but still worse at the moment.

Riggers - just...oof. Got hit hard and got nothing in return. Even worse than street samurai. Meatspace specialist drivers are better than riggers. Wired Reflexes 3 are better than a Control Rig 3 for vehicles. Improved Reflexes 3 and some Improved Ability (Piloting) are better than both.

Gear - Chameleon Suit got dunked on once again. +Edge while sneaking basically means it's barely better than being in the nude and sneaking. Cyberdecks got cheaper because half the price is in cyberjacks, and they're still cheaper combined than in 5e. That's good for deckers, I guess.

Augmentations....hoo boy, where do I start? Ah, yes, with the improvements. Wired Reflexes got a well-deserved ESS cost buff and a not-so-well-deserved fourth rank. Muscle Replacements got a buff, too. Most augmentations have a fixed availability rating, so you can get almost everything you want at chargen. That's it, that's the good part gone, bye.

Bad parts. Cyberjacks are awful, because CGL don't understand how investment and role protection works. The idea of a professional augmentation for hacking is GOOD. The end result is BAD. The prime example of a good specialist augmentation is 4e initiative boosters or 5e Control Rig. You can do stuff without them, but when you have those, you become a demigod compared to normal people in those areas. A good cyberjack wouldn't be for stats, it would dramatically change how you go about the Matrix. Quicker actions, easier hacks, that sort of thing.

Most augmentations are worse than before. You can't get a +4 to BOD through augmentations, either - at best it's Bone Lacing (Titanium)+Suprathyroid Gland for +3. Bone Density 4 is +4 to BOD for damage resistance, but that's it. Yes, you read that right, a troll mage with Focused Concentration and Improve Attribute used for +4 BOD beats a non-troll samurai for tankiness from chargen, and keeps pace with any troll sam. Forever. Synaptic Booster got a useless addendum about users being in slow motion forever. Just why? To dunk on people who picked SB instead of wires? It didn't get a 4th rank, either, so it's pretty much worse than WR now - and it was done in the worst possible way.

Cyberlimbs are terrible, and they got even worse compared to Muscle Replacements. You can either get Used MR 4 for 60k and 3.08 Essence, or 5 cyberlimbs at 2/2/2/2 (yes, you read that right, they have BOD and REA by RAW, and those stats can't be increased) for 80k and 5.5 Essence before any mods to make them useful. Making them 6/6 AGI/STR would cost you another 200k. Cyberlimb builds are dead, because they don't do anything better than Bone Lacing+Muscle Replacements. Armor is +DR, which is both plentiful enough for a troll sam to have 15 out of chargen (which is more than any gun out there), and absolutely useless.

Advancement - when you're done with chargen, it's where you stay. Forever. Advancement rules are bad. Training times mean that you're gonna be playing in 21XX before long, if you actually want to train. But you aren't, because the recommended payouts are worse than 5e in a way (instead of forgetting that high levels of play exist and are supposed to pay LOTS of cash, they just don't even give low-level examples), and you can't sustain your lifestyle without running at least once a month (because you're street-level, and street-level runners don't get six-figure or even higher five-figure gigs). Advancement costs mean that improving anything important at all will cost you several runs' worth of karma.

Other Stuff - why are PR10 special forces wearing armor jackets instead of FBA? It's in the book, you know. Why are there minor mechanics that exist only to waste time and make useless rolls (bullet trackers, wireless functionality)?



TL;DR - Mages got buffed, Matrix is 10% better, everything else sucks hard. Go play your preferred edition, this garbage fire isn't worth picking up, much less fixing.

[Kyrell1978]

Well...it's garbage, really. The corebook lacks crucial rules that you'd only know if you played 5e. All of presumptions from the leaks were actually correct, aside from the Armor spell stacking soak dice. Still, it's Magicrun all the way, which is also ruined by most non-mage being tied into the Edge system, which is...underwhelming and broken at the same time. That is to say, 4-point and 5-point Edge boosts are too powerful, but outside of them, Edge feels lame, and since you can't generate more than 2 per turn...

I've written up a comparison, anyway. It's a bit long, so I'll spoiler it.

I've been reading the book for two days and mostly comparing both to 5e RAW and to my group's houserules to it. Can't say it was a good use of my weekend, but at least I can pass it on.

Long version (TL;DR at the end):

Chargen - absolutely worse. The only reasonable decision was getting trolls out from priority gating, and even that was done crudely enough to not be worth porting over. Starting characters will be worse narratively, unless they're spellcasters, and even spellcaster will lose out on some non-magic versatility. Some Priority values are outright unplayable (Attributes E/D/possibly C, Skills E).

Skills - better than 5e RAW, worse than any reasonable houserule. Sure, Diving and 5 kinds of Mechanic needed to go. But you could keep about 40-50 skills, the game would be playable, it would have reasonable granularity, skill groups could stay for people who want them, and you could actually have a face that knows their way around handguns, but can't really operate an assault cannon. That's meaningful enough that it should've stayed, IMO.

Combat - ridiculously worse. Initiative passes and combat specialists going four (or even five) times per turn and killing someone each time are gone. Not sure why you would make a combat character who's not a grenadier or spirit summoner now, outside of pure style reasons. Maybe burnout punch adept still works, troll fist meta still strong for some reason. AK-97 on autofire doing more damage that any other gun in the game is ridiculous. Autofire giving defense penalties instead of damage was one of the best things in 5e, and it actually let people play with SS/SA weapons without everything being about "how many bullets can you throw at them".

The general motto of "weapons don't do much damage, but if you're hit, you're probably taking damage anyway" is bad. It's D&D-like hitting people with cardboard swords. Grenades are on the other extreme and pulverise everything that they touch at GZ/Close range, which, while realistic, isn't fun for anyone.

Edge-farming for killmoves (which are pretty broken, actually) is lame. I would like to be competent all the time, instead of waiting for metaphysical luck points to do their work. Full-auto weapons work better with Edge, as well.

Magic - got better (obviously, lol, it's Hardy's ShadowMagicrun we're talking about). Mystic Adepts seem to have gotten slightly worse than in 5e (if I'm interpreting errata right?), but pure Magicians are just fine. Spirits are even more broken, because autosoaking 6+ damage means you win at combat by default. If you can get a drain resist value that soaks 6 Drain reliably, you can cast everything just fine. Outliers are to spend Edge on, but most spells don't need more than 6 DV after amps/net hits to be at max effectiveness.

Adepts not getting 6 PP at chargen (might be a rules conflict, but the CRB or errata don't do anything about it) is dumb, as is considering Adepts to be as important as mages for pricing. Then again, RAW rules don't have them losing PP from losing MAG, so you can just 5 ESS burnout and then get cheap points through Initiations.

Matrix - 5e Matrix, a bit better, but still crap. Some reference to hosts sometimes being physical is appreciated, but I'll hate the idea of Foundation and non-physical hosts still, thanks. No point in going into detail, it's still bad and I'll keep thinking how to make a new set of Matrix rules. Technomancers are a bit more on even footing with Deckers, I think, but still worse at the moment.

Riggers - just...oof. Got hit hard and got nothing in return. Even worse than street samurai. Meatspace specialist drivers are better than riggers. Wired Reflexes 3 are better than a Control Rig 3 for vehicles. Improved Reflexes 3 and some Improved Ability (Piloting) are better than both.

Gear - Chameleon Suit got dunked on once again. +Edge while sneaking basically means it's barely better than being in the nude and sneaking. Cyberdecks got cheaper because half the price is in cyberjacks, and they're still cheaper combined than in 5e. That's good for deckers, I guess.

Augmentations....hoo boy, where do I start? Ah, yes, with the improvements. Wired Reflexes got a well-deserved ESS cost buff and a not-so-well-deserved fourth rank. Muscle Replacements got a buff, too. Most augmentations have a fixed availability rating, so you can get almost everything you want at chargen. That's it, that's the good part gone, bye.

Bad parts. Cyberjacks are awful, because CGL don't understand how investment and role protection works. The idea of a professional augmentation for hacking is GOOD. The end result is BAD. The prime example of a good specialist augmentation is 4e initiative boosters or 5e Control Rig. You can do stuff without them, but when you have those, you become a demigod compared to normal people in those areas. A good cyberjack wouldn't be for stats, it would dramatically change how you go about the Matrix. Quicker actions, easier hacks, that sort of thing.

Most augmentations are worse than before. You can't get a +4 to BOD through augmentations, either - at best it's Bone Lacing (Titanium)+Suprathyroid Gland for +3. Bone Density 4 is +4 to BOD for damage resistance, but that's it. Yes, you read that right, a troll mage with Focused Concentration and Improve Attribute used for +4 BOD beats a non-troll samurai for tankiness from chargen, and keeps pace with any troll sam. Forever. Synaptic Booster got a useless addendum about users being in slow motion forever. Just why? To dunk on people who picked SB instead of wires? It didn't get a 4th rank, either, so it's pretty much worse than WR now - and it was done in the worst possible way.

Cyberlimbs are terrible, and they got even worse compared to Muscle Replacements. You can either get Used MR 4 for 60k and 3.08 Essence, or 5 cyberlimbs at 2/2/2/2 (yes, you read that right, they have BOD and REA by RAW, and those stats can't be increased) for 80k and 5.5 Essence before any mods to make them useful. Making them 6/6 AGI/STR would cost you another 200k. Cyberlimb builds are dead, because they don't do anything better than Bone Lacing+Muscle Replacements. Armor is +DR, which is both plentiful enough for a troll sam to have 15 out of chargen (which is more than any gun out there), and absolutely useless.

Advancement - when you're done with chargen, it's where you stay. Forever. Advancement rules are bad. Training times mean that you're gonna be playing in 21XX before long, if you actually want to train. But you aren't, because the recommended payouts are worse than 5e in a way (instead of forgetting that high levels of play exist and are supposed to pay LOTS of cash, they just don't even give low-level examples), and you can't sustain your lifestyle without running at least once a month (because you're street-level, and street-level runners don't get six-figure or even higher five-figure gigs). Advancement costs mean that improving anything important at all will cost you several runs' worth of karma.

Other Stuff - why are PR10 special forces wearing armor jackets instead of FBA? It's in the book, you know. Why are there minor mechanics that exist only to waste time and make useless rolls (bullet trackers, wireless functionality)?



TL;DR - Mages got buffed, Matrix is 10% better, everything else sucks hard. Go play your preferred edition, this garbage fire isn't worth picking up, much less fixing.

Well, that sucks. Pretty much expected though.

[LibraryOgre]

I think I need to buckle down and write a SW conversion to make myself happy.

[Rhedyn]

I think I need to buckle down and write a SW conversion to make myself happy.
https://wrathofzombie.files.wordpress.com › ...PDF
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Savage Worlds of Shadowrun - Wrathofzombie's Blog - WordPress.com

Or Google "Savage Shadowrun" there have been a few fan conversions.


I'm disappointed that 6e didn't fix SR problems.

[Ignimortis]

I'm disappointed that 6e didn't fix SR problems.

As someone who's basically been living on Shadowrun (and Final Fantasy but that's beside the point) for a year now, I'm disappointed but not surprised. CGL have shown a remarkable LACK of interest in their Shadowrun license. Most of 5e was reprints of 4e stuff, and the embezzlement scandal never got better, seeing as the perp stayed in the company and the victims had to leave. 6e is just more of the same - an incredible amount of neglect and shoddy work.

[The Glyphstone]

Has any edition ever fixed SR's problems? It seems like everyone has their 'sweet spot' where X edition is the best - not perfect, but better than all the rest.

[Ignimortis]

Has any edition ever fixed SR's problems? It seems like everyone has their 'sweet spot' where X edition is the best - not perfect, but better than all the rest.

Frankly, after reading all editions' corebooks I got the feeling...
2e - fixed perceived 1e problems, left some intact.
3e - fixed perceived 2e problems, introduced more.
4e - rewrote the base, fixed a lot of problems through that, introduced a lot of minor ones and really divided the fanbase by modernizing the setting.
5e - took 4e, smeared it with some paint, smeared it with some dirt in other places, basically a cash-grab edition with a solid base sorta dented by neglect.
6e - took 5e, ripped out the good parts, shoved some straw in, threw it at the audience saying it's as good as new, despite being a mangled broken mess.

I figure all editions before 5th tried to actually fix the problems that the previous editions had, with varied results. 5th tried to push the nostalgia angle and had nothing beyond that. 6e tries to push the streamlining angle and has nothing beyond that, and it's not even streamlined.

[Delta]

That list seems spot on. Personally, I liked 4 very much, and it was the last edition where I could look at it and see "Okay, they had a plan what they wanted to do with this" to a certain degree, something which both 5 and 6 totally seem to lack.

I could not for the life of me figure out what the plan for 6 was. Streamline the game and make it faster? It just... doesn't do that, in any way. If you look at the edge mechanic, there's a core of a more abstract, conflict-driven resolution mechanism in there that might be somewhat interesting but then... yup, it's dropped right into the middle of a mostly unchanged, still completely simulationist mess of convoluted rules. The whole armor/damage/soak resolution just feels weird and wrong, and I'm definitely not the only one to think that. Mind you, I think that nerfing soaktanks is a good thing, but did people really playtest these rules and afterwards say "Yeah, this feels good, this makes sense!", I kind of have a hard time believing that (and again, not the only one, watch the very first Actual Play session on Shadowcasters, they were barely through their first combat encounter when they started discussing how armor, damage and so on might have to be houseruled)

And on top of that, from what I've seen, it's just a bad book. The layout is terrible, a lot of the sections were clearly written for an audience of people with years of experience playing Shadowrun, which is not what a new edition core book should aim for.

I really, really want to be excited for new Shadowrun stuff, and I will try and run a few more games with the new rules, hoping to maybe be positively surprised. But yeah, even by the low standards I apply to new Shadowrun editions, this one feels bad.

[Pendragonx]

Now, this is coming from somebody who's just starting to play 5th edition Shadowrun, so perhaps I have no room to talk here. But it seems to me that the problem with 5th edition Shadowrun isn't that it's too complicated and crunchy; it's that the book is quite possibly the most poorly edited thing I've ever encountered. If 6th edition is published by the same people and they don't hire more editors, it isn't going to matter how streamlined the actual game system is.

So. Much. This.
I've tried to get my head around the rules, but the layout is so bad I gave up at some point

[HappyDaze]

So. Much. This.
I've tried to get my head around the rules, but the layout is so bad I gave up at some point

I'm in my 40s and my eyes have trouble reading the print on some of the 5e archetypes (e.g., drone rigger and weapons specialist). So much text crammed in on gear that they had to shrink the size down beyond my comfort level. Which also goes to my dislike of games where your gear section needs a page or three of its own.

[Delta]

The sad fact is that, if you can believe it, 6e core is even worse. Regardless of what you think of the new edition as a whole, this is just a really, really badly made book.

[Anonymouswizard]

The sad fact is that, if you can believe it, 6e core is even worse. Regardless of what you think of the new edition as a whole, this is just a really, really badly made book.

And considering that 5e was so bad I went back to 3e... :smalleek:

[Delta]

Like, the character creation chapter is a catastrophe by itself, terrible layout with bars just going straight through text in a way any college student with an introductory course to anything regarding publishing, be it web or print, would probably get a massive grade reduction for, the text itself being a convoluted mess with special points for special attributes being mentioned before attributes themselves, or what those "special" attributes might be, I've known Shadowrun priority creation systems for over 25 years now and even I had to read that stuff multiple times to understand how it works (fun fact: since they worded this in the most convoluted way possible, the special racial attribute points intended to be spent on the attributes races are strong in can, by RAW, just as well be spent on those they are exceptionally weak in, not sure that was really intended)

And it's crowned by the completely crazy fact that yes, you can spend those "special" points on Magic, but then you don't get the special benefits you get from having "natural" points in the Magic attribute by picking a higher Magic priority. That's not the worst for mages, who just miss out on some free spells, no big deal.

But if you are an adept and raise your magic beyond what you get from your magic priority, you don't get power points. In essence, that means you just broke your character, during creation, and that's not by accident, that is very specificially the way the character creation rules are designed. If you read the magic chapter, it's quite clear PhysAds aren't supposed to have points in Magic without associated power points, the adept rules clearly aren't designed for that to ever happen, there's no way to later rectify that.

Unless of course you don't use an attribute point to raise magic but karma (of which you again get some during creation), then it's fine again and you get all the associated bonuses.

Stuff like that is just an awful mess that makes it quite obvious that at no point did someone take a step back, look at this chapter as a whole and asked "Is this good?", this reads like an amalgamation of house rules created on the fly to fix some min-maxing problems in character creation, a core book is not supposed to look like that. If you're really intent on guys not starting with Magic 6 by just spending attribute points, say "Magic cannot be increased with those points" and be done with it. And again, this is just one small part of a huge book, it isn't hard to find many other examples of stuff like this throughout the book.