Best build for punching stuff and grappling?

[Skadi]

So I kind of want to make a goliath build that is good at punching stuff and grappling things, mostly want to combine it with an enlarge spell so I can choke slam dragons, of course I could go strength based fighter which would give me the grappling but as far as I know there are no fighter subclasses that give significant bonuses to unarmed fighting, the other option is to go monk for the punching stuff but strength based monks kind of suck as you don't get much from strength when compared to Dex.

Of course I get it would be kind of a niche build focused mostly on grappling but I would prefer if it did not suck too much in other areas.

[Skadi]

Also need DM ruling on this, could be interpreted differently depending on the DM but does Powerful Build count in regards to grappling?

[BloodSnake'sCha]

How about Rogue 1 for expertise in Athletics barb for advantage on Strength checks in rage.

Battlerager can give you a small bonus if your DM allow it.

[Digimike]

I could see a few options to make this work.


Homebrew with your DM a fighter fighting style that gives some sort of benefit to unarmed fighting.
Take the Tavern Brawler Feat (Perhaps sub the fighting style at level 1 for this feat)
Verify that you'll be able to get some magical brass knuckles or gaultlets for creatures that require magical weapons to harm. Or reflavor the Shillelagh cantrip to something that works for you and the DM.

[nickl_2000]

If you don't feel like multiclassing you could go EK or AT. You would have to use one of your bonus spell slots to get Enlarge/Reduce, but that isn't the worst thing in the world. If you went EK you would need to find a way to get expertise (UA feat - Brawny).

No matter what you will want the tavern brawler feat.



Not sure if you DM is open to homebrew or not, but you can present this as an option to work from and modify as needed if they are.
Bard - College of the Luchador - https://drive.google.com/open?id=1GBkWWGFt96j5nthVkmqwz2HKnT2xQUjD
You would still need to take Enlarge/Reduce as a magical secrets, but it could be fun.

[Unoriginal]

If you want to punch things for more than 1d4+STR mod damage, you need Monk levels.

If that doesn't bother you to have your punches do 1d4+STR damage, then Tavern Brawler + any STR build with Athletics proficiency is your jam.

If UA is allowed, the Brute Fighter can do increased damage with unarmed attacks too.

Also I know you said Goliath, but the Duergar can Enlarge as part of their racial bonuses.

[nickl_2000]

Also, check out the grappler's manual. It's a really, really good resource for being a good grappler.

http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?468737-The-Grappler-s-Manual-(2-0)-Grappling-in-5th-Edition

[ragnorack1]

Good timing on this, been playing around with a few different grappler builds the last couple of days and been finding it tricky to get everything into one build. The trickiest bit seems to be getting hold of enlarge at an early level that works well a martial character.
Just on the off chance I've missed it somewhere, is there a subclass for the wisdom casters that offers enlarge or an item that can give it reliably a few times a day? Failing that being new to the game, and have never played adventurers league how reliably can you get hold of potions of growth to save for huge creature encounters?

As far as builds barbarian/lore bard with tavern brawler looks quite good to me and makes a fun ott WWE style wrestler, though it takes a turn to set up with either jump/rage for medium enemies to be able to jump high enough to suplex them (do damage and auto prone) and with huge creatures casting enlarge. Down sides are that you'll never do that much damage and if you're not raging taking hits will hurt. Plus point is you can be really nasty to casters trapping them in a silence bubble or antimagic field.

Barb monk with prodigy gets off the ground quite quick if you take the prodigy feat, having all the tools to grapple and supplex from level 3 and having enough attacks and slightly bigger die to do middling damage. Trick is to remember with step of the wind you only need to have +2 strength and can use dex for damage and along side con for ac.
Sure you won't be using the rage damage or reckless attacks but you still get damage reduction and advantage for your grapples and supplexing them will give you advantage anyway while giving them disadvantage. Also if your lucky enough to get a strength boosting item you can switch to using strength for the bonus and your jump height benefits too. Slow fall is nice if you want to jump of a cliff with them, and deflecting arrows with your pectorals is cool. Down side is depending on outside sources for enlarge and having low wis so won't be reliably getting off stunning strike.

Third suggestion I have no experience of playing any of the mechanics, but forest gnome moon druid, barbarian could be interesting. But folks seem to think the creatures would be too squishy though I'm not so sure. Relies totally on wild shapes so not sure what the character would do when they run out. But as well as having the creatures with built in grapple features, your proficiency and advantage should still apply so you can bear hug but won't be able to supplex as a bear unless some one casts jump on you. Hopefully the rage damage reduction and wild healing will be enough to keep you up.
If you have a DM who gives out short rests like candy I'd stop druid at 10 if it goes that far and rely on elemental shapes and focus barb or possibly chuck some paladin in for smites to help with damage.

[Phoenix042]

So I kind of want to make a goliath build that is good at punching stuff and grappling things, mostly want to combine it with an enlarge spell so I can choke slam dragons, of course I could go strength based fighter which would give me the grappling but as far as I know there are no fighter subclasses that give significant bonuses to unarmed fighting, the other option is to go monk for the punching stuff but strength based monks kind of suck as you don't get much from strength when compared to Dex.

Of course I get it would be kind of a niche build focused mostly on grappling but I would prefer if it did not suck too much in other areas.

Tavern Brawler is an amazing feat specifically keyed to do what you're asking for here.

Here's a build idea:

Go goliath, put a 17 in strength. You're going to want strength as much as any barbarian for the high athletics and the extra damage on unarmed strikes.

Right away at level 1, you do 4 damage with an unarmed strike when not raging, or 6 when raging. Compare that to the monks average 5.5 damage on an unarmed strike. Not too shabby.

And ALSO at level 1, you've got a +5 to athletics checks for grappling, and while raging, you have advantage on the checks (advantage on all strength checks while raging).

At level 2, monks get ki and flurry, but you get reckless attack, so you can throw just as many d20s as them, but you can do it all day long (no resource cost). This is an especially good trade while raging.

At 3rd level, choose whichever path you want.

At 4th level, grab tavern brawler. Now your strength is 18 (making you better at punching and grappling), and you do 1d4 damage with unarmed strikes or improvised weapons. While raging, your punches do 1d4 + 6 damage or average 8.5 (better than a monk), and you can grapple as a bonus action when you punch someone. This is huge, as it lets you efficiently use your action resources for wrestling and punching people whether or not you're raging.

At 5th level you get extra attack. Now you can:

1) Punch the guy.
2) Grab as bonus action
3) Shove to ground.

Now the poor sap is prone and grappled; he can't get up, you can move him half your speed for free on this turn (and drop him off a bridge if you want), and you STILL have advantage on any athletics checks you make to keep him from escaping.

And you have two hands, so you can do this all to another guy next turn.

Then I'd go straight barbarian till level 8 for the last bump to strength.

People are saying you should dip rogue, which isn't a bad idea but if you do I'd wait until maybe 9th level. At that point, the x2 proficiency bonus will be a big deal, and your strength score will be as high as possible. At barbarian 8 / rogue 1, you'd have an athletics score of +13, which is amazing, and plenty of rages per day to keep that advantage going.

Personally I don't consider the monk a worthwhile consideration for this kind of character; while monks are very good at unarmed combat, they don't compete with barbarians at all when it comes to grappling, and the tavern brawler feat gives a barbarian many of the benefits of going monk; efficient use of bonus action and significantly increased unarmed damage.



While you never mentioned this idea, I will point out that you can use a shield in one hand and leave the other hand open. With tavern brawler, you can wrestle someone to the ground, then hold them there while bashing them with your shield each turn and possibly dragging them over to a cliff or something. Since they're prone, you have advantage on your attacks against them even without using reckless attack, which leaves you very well defended; the shield gives you a high AC, the prone guy has disadvantage on his attacks against you, and if you're raging, you have resistance to physical damage.

So yea, I think that's a pretty great build.

[Man_Over_Game]

Good timing on this, been playing around with a few different grappler builds the last couple of days and been finding it tricky to get everything into one build. The trickiest bit seems to be getting hold of enlarge at an early level that works well a martial character.
Just on the off chance I've missed it somewhere, is there a subclass for the wisdom casters that offers enlarge or an item that can give it reliably a few times a day? Failing that being new to the game, and have never played adventurers league how reliably can you get hold of potions of growth to save for huge creature encounters?

You might be able to summon a creature that can cast it on you. Barring that, Arcana Cleric > Wish > Enlarge/Reduce.

Not realistic, but those are the only methods I could think of to do it.

[strangebloke]

Hi!

First, lets compile a laundry list of what you want to be able to do:

grapple creatures consistently (meaning that you want expertise in athletics)
enlarge person
Be able to punch people, preferably with STR.
goliath


Here's my build:
Bear Totem Barbarian Goliath 5, rogue 1, Barbarian 'x'
Starting stats are 17/14/14/8/12/10
Bump the 17 up to an 18 with Tavern Brawler once you get to brute level 4. Bump up to 20 STR at level 8.

So, with rage you'll always have advantage on grapple checks. Enlarge gives you this as well, but that's a concern for higher levels. More importantly, rage allows you to soak up the damage that creatures you're grappling will throw at you while you're holding them. Your AC is 19 (half-plate + shield + DEX) and you resist all damage, so its safe to say that you can take three to four times the damage your average party member can. Stack Stone's Endurance on this for an effective 2d12 resistance per short rest and you're just straight up a beast.

Your average combat by level six will go something like this:

rage.
run up to the biggest baddest guy in the room.
shove him prone with your first attack. 18 STR + Expertise + advantage means you almost always succeed.
grapple him with your second attack. Once again, you almost always succeed at this.
pull him back into range of your other melee characters.


Now, all attacks made against him in melee have advantage, and all attacks he makes (including against you) have disadvantage. He's can't get up from the prone condition without escaping the grapple, since the grapple sets his speed to zero. You don't ever need to use reckless attack because you're only ever using unarmed strikes against prone opponents, so your AC stays super high. You don't need to ditch your shield to make unarmed attacks because unarmed attacks can be done with elbows or kicks or whatever.

You *might* want to ditch the shield before battle if you want to grapple/prone two enemies at once. You won't really be using Tavern Brawler on the first turn (because you're using your bonus actions to rage) but on subsequent turns it will really help you.

Combos:

enlarge lets you grapple huge enemies. If the caster can reduce the enemy, this is even better, but buffing you is going to be more consistent.
Fly, the spell, lets you grapple/prone flying enemies. Note: a prone enemy cannot fly, even if they're flying due to magic. You can straight up just fly up to people and knock them out of the sky. Great fun for the whole family.
Obviously, throwing people off of tall structures is both cathartic and (sometimes) effective.
Silence, otherwise known as "budget antimagic field" is a great thing to have cast on you. Run up to a caster, grapple-prone them, and 9/10 of their spells are suddenly uncastable. Best of all, this is a ritual that lasts ten minutes, so in some circumstances you can get it as a free buff prior to combat.
In general, buffs like longstrider or items that grant you improved movement are going to be your friend here. You can't grapple people if you can't get into melee with them.


Oh, and as an added bonus, as a goliath bear totem barbarian, your carrying capacity is quadrupled. With 20 STR, you can carry 1200 pounds. With enlarge cast on you, that goes up to 2400 pounds. While buffed like this, you can lift 4800 pounds.

For reference, that's like picking up a ford f250.

[Damon_Tor]

If you're allowed to use UA, the mystic is the best single class grappler available. They can become large with better efficiency than a full spellcaster using Enlarge starting at level 1 and huge at higher levels. They can give themselves advantage on Athletics without the drawbacks of rage, plus huge static bonuses. And they have some absurd mobility options which let them do things like a 140 foot suplex.

[sophontteks]

A eagle totem barbarian with tavern brawler takes the cake. Safely ignore reactions, drag people 40 feet per round, advantage on grapple, high AC, resistance to weapon damage, and eventually learn how to fly, resistance to fall damage when you suplex them 40 feet in the air.

This is all you could ever ask for in a grappler. Dragging a target 40 feet per round and safely ignoring reactions means most enemies can't even stop you from dragging an opponent away while you hit them every round.

[ragnorack1]

Some interesting ideas going rounds. Out of curiosity how do you do the mystic grappler build? My understanding of that class it pretty poor.


As an aside regarding my enlarge query, I've just found out about the climbing aboard rule from the dmg which uses the same skill checks. Not as effective of prone and grapple but can still give you advantage on attacks without giving it to the too. Will do in a pinch when no wizards /growth potions are available.
Anyone know if this rule is in common use/adventurers league friendly?

[Jamesps]

I'd go straight Barbarian with Tavern Brawler.

The rage damage will make up for the small damage die (A raging tavern brawler actually does more per-hit damage than a same-level monk at all levels) and you get advantage. You can also boost your damage with some of the subclass abilities, zealot being the most obvious choice. While not optimized, you'll be able to keep up with the other martials this way. You can mix in a level of rogue if you want just for the expertise, but honestly it's not necessary. With tavern brawler you're getting three grapple attempts per round by level 5, and you'll usually have advantage on the roll.

[Kurt Kurageous]

The battlerager /axe idiot from SCAG does it all with bonus damage.

[Damon_Tor]

Some interesting ideas going rounds. Out of curiosity how do you do the mystic grappler build? My understanding of that class it pretty poor.

Str as your primary stat, Int as your secondary, Con with what you've got left over. Your race should be variant human, and take Tavern Brawler.

Your Subclass is Immortal: you get IntMod temporary HP every round and it gets you the disciplines you want from level 1.

Your starting Disciplines will be Brute Force and Giant Growth. Those are really all you need, so your other disciplines can be whatever you want, covering whatever else you want to do as a character. I'd go for Beastial Form for the versatile mobility options and concentration-free +2 to AC.

Set your Psionic Focus to Brute Force's. This gives you blanket advantage on all athletics checks. If you're trying to grapple an opponent with a badass athletics or acrobatics modifier spend 2 Psi on your Feat of Strength ability to give yourself a +5 bonus to athletics until your next turn.

Use Ogre Form to become Large so you can grapple bigger things. When you hit level 9 you'll be able to use Giant Form to become huge and grapple anything you want.

At level 5, use Bestial Form to give yourself a Flight Speed for an hour (5 Psi), then once you have something grappled, use Mighty Leap to jump 100 feet into the air (5 Psi). At this point you can either drop them for 10d6 damage or hover there holding them daring them to struggle.

As for your punching ability, on one turn you can use Brute Strike, Bestial Claws, and Knockback all at once, dealing 1d10+2d6 damage for every 3 PSI you feel like spending on the combo. At level 9 this results in 7d10+14d6 damage if you want to blow 21 Psi on this.

[GlenSmash!]

The question I always consider when building a grappler is "What do I want to do when not grappling?" as there are plenty of creatures that can't be grappled due to size, or flat out immunity to the Grappled condition.

So, when do you want to do when you can't grapple?

[Bjarkmundur]

The question I always consider when building a grappler is "What do I want to do when not grappling?" as there are plenty of creatures that can't be grappled due to size, or flat out immunity to the Grappled condition.

So, when do you want to do when you can't grapple?

There's always the Help action

[Zigludo]

Strongly seconding Phoenix042's recommendation- straight Barbarian with Tavern Brawler at 4, level in Rogue at 9, should you arrive at that point.

If you wanted to go a more punching-y route, I would recommend 1 in Barbarian, rest in Monk, but if you want to make that work without disastrously low AC, it requires specific races that are not named Goliath.

Also, to answer your second question: IIRC, Powerful Build does not affect grappling at all. The rules for grappling are completely separate from the rules for carrying / lifting / dragging.

[FrancisBean]

Also I know you said Goliath, but the Duergar can Enlarge as part of their racial bonuses.

Related, Duergar are still dwarves and are eligible for Squat NimblenessXGtE, which can be abused to gain the equivalent of Expertise on Athletics. (I'm currently playing a Hill Dwarf Shield Master Barbarian using exactly that feat to avoid the need to multiclass.) Just in case you decide the easy Enlarge access is more important than Goliath.

Never mind. I just double-checked, and they closed that one when they re-wrote the UA Squat Nimbleness for Xanathar's. Doh! Well, at least my character is grandfathered....

[Paeleus]

If your GM is open to homebrew, the Pugilist class is pretty solid. Played a few sessions with a Sandy Ravage who was on a quest for the Belt. It appeared to be a real fun class to play.

[Greywander]

I've been thinking about grappling lately as well. I second consulting the (slightly out of date now) Grappler's Manual (http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?468737-The-Grappler-s-Manual-(2-0)-Grappling-in-5th-Edition). Here's what I've worked out so far:

Centuar [GGtR]
+2 STR, 40 speed, Powerful Build, 1d4 hoof attack.
Yeah, goliath works too, I guess, but this is a bit better for grapplers, IMHO. They also get +2 STR and Powerful Build, and you can get 1d4 unarmed attack with Tavern Brawler, if you have a spare feat.

Werebear [MM]
Template, so you apply it on top of your race and class (in other words, it's free real estate). Shapeshift into L A R G E hybrid form. Also immunity to non-silvered weapons, but maybe trade this away in exchange for no uncontrollable bloodlust during full moons (also for permission to play a werebeast).

Fighter (EK) 11
Extra Attack (three attacks) lets you grapple, shove prone, and stomp. Or Grapple twice and shove one enemy prone.
Action Surge. That is all.
CON save proficiency helps you maintain concentration. Get Warcaster, too.
Take Longstrider as your non abjur/evoc spell at 3rd level (grapplers love being able to move around). It's non-concentration, so you can use it with Enlarge/Reduce.
Take Enlarge/Reduce as your non abjur/evoc spell at 8th level. Combine with werebear form for H U G E grappler who can grapple up to Gargantuan enemies (that means all of them).
If you go further in fighter (enough to get 3rd level spells), Dispel Magic and Counterspell are also great choices for mage-killing, and are also abjuration, so hurray. See also Mage Slayer feat.

Rogue 2
Expertise (Athletics) at 1. As this scales with your proficiency bonus, it's less useful early on, so it might wait until after you reach fighter 11.
Cunning Action at 2nd level lets you bonus action Dash. With a base speed of 40, +10 from Longstrider, +10 from the Mobile feat (if you get it), let's you cover 120 feet and still attack/grapple.

Wizard (War Magic [XGtE]) 2 (optional)
I wasn't aware of this little gem until recently, but Arcane Deflection lets you add +2 AC or +4 to a saving throw as a reaction. It's only for one attack or save, but you can spam it every round and you can use it after you get hit or fail a save, instead of using it before. It's like a backup Shield spell, but works with saves, too.
Alternatively, if you get to wizard 3, you can get Enlarge/Reduce that way, meaning you don't need to go EK as your fighter subclass. You could ditch fighter entirely, but those Extra Attacks are pretty tempting.

As a grappler, I feel like your responsibility is to identify the biggest threat(s) on the field, intercept it, immobilize it, and shut it down.
Speed and resilience are both required secondary powers for this role, hence things like the centaur (40 base speed), Longstrider, and Mobile for speed, and Dispel Magic, Counterspell, Shield, Absorb Elements, Arcane Deflection, Warcaster, CON save proficiency, etc.
As for shutting an enemy down, shoving them prone gives them disadvantage on their melee attacks (and you advantage). Mage Slayer stops them from casting spells, more or less pushing them towards attacking or taking nonaggressive actions. Sentinel lets you punish them if they attack someone that isn't you (yes, this works for when they make ranged attacks against someone else, too), and also, if they do manage to break free you can stop them with an OA.
Also of note, Booming Blade can be a great cantrip to use to lock someone down. EKs are also one of the few classes that get Extra Attacks that can make it competitive with just attacking.
If you can get it (Magic Initiate, maybe) Hex can be used to give disadvantage on ability checks. Give your intended victim disadvantage on STR or DEX checks (whichever you think is higher) before grappling. It is concentration, though, so it competes with Enlarge/Reduce.

As others have said, it also pays to think about what you'll be doing when your aren't grappling or can't grapple. Flying enemies, or enemies too big to grapple (if DM vetoes werebear), or enemies that are out of reach.

[Dualswinger]

If we’re allowing other races I’m gonna say a Zariel heritage winged tiefling. Keeps the strength bonus, and while you won’t have a natural weapon, you can fly up and drop your target for lots of d6 damage. Particularly with cunning action dash

[Skadi]

The question I always consider when building a grappler is "What do I want to do when not grappling?" as there are plenty of creatures that can't be grappled due to size, or flat out immunity to the Grappled condition.

So, when do you want to do when you can't grapple?

Punch!!!!!!

[GlenSmash!]

Punch!!!!!!

Excellent answer, what about when you can't grapple or reach your target to punch it?

[GlenSmash!]

There's always the Help action

Yup, but if you use your action to do that you'll drop out of rage (if a barbarian) hence the importance of the question.

[sophontteks]

Excellent answer, what about when you can't grapple or reach your target to punch it?
Be a flying barbarian that moves 80 feet per round and never worry about that?

[GlenSmash!]

Be a flying barbarian that moves 80 feet per round and never worry about that?

If that's what the OP wants sure.

Getting their Goliath to fly could be tricky though.

[Damon_Tor]

If that's what the OP wants sure.

Getting their Goliath to fly could be tricky though.

Another plus to being a mystic: concentration free flight speed.

[GlenSmash!]

Another plus to being a mystic: concentration free flight speed.

Yup. Mystics are good at everything.

It's part of the reason I don't like them for my D&D game, but in it's own setting, I wouldn't even need any other classes.

[Talionis]

Goliath Arcane Trickster focused on Strength. You get enlarge at level 7. Your extra damage from punching is your Sneak Attack punching.

[GlenSmash!]

Goliath Arcane Trickster focused on Strength. You get enlarge at level 7. Your extra damage from punching is your Sneak Attack punching.

Unarmed strikes aren't finesse though. You can't add sneak attacks to them unless houseruling.