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View Full Version : D&D 5e/Next Core Redesign of the Fighter (Ver. 1.2-ish): What it means to be a fighter



R.Shackleford
2019-05-01, 09:24 AM
Warning: My groups don't go over level 10, so unless there's a lot done to this and someone wants to actually use a higher level version of this... I won't be sending it past level 10.

https://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/S1-xbsMVs4

The fighter is currently in pretty bad shape when it comes to an identity. The barbarian and rogue can easily take the fighter's place. The barbarian as a strength based weapon/magic user (barbarians have a lot of different magic abilities) and the rogue as a strength or dexterity based weapon or weapon/magic user. These two classes are also better at Athletics than the fighter, the rogues is better at both athletics and acrobatics as the fighter (even accounting for a lower ability score).

So, I want the fighter to be a leader on the battlefield. However, I don't want to over complicate the Fighter, so the core design should use rules that are already in the game that you can't get away from unless you straight up ignore them.

What's the most underused system in the game? Inspiration. What's, probably, the most sought after and easy buff in the game? Advantage. What does inspiration give you? Advantage.

Boom.

A fighter that gets extra inspiration, not bardic inspiration, so that they can be awesome themselves or help others be awesome. Additionally, this would help them with out of combat situations as inspiration can be used out of combat. It also gives them something to help allies with as inspiration doesn't have many stipulations on what rolls it can use. The only change I would give this Additional Inspiration Dice, well, you don't have to be doing something cool for the fighter to give it to you... You just need to be doing something.



Some changes I made to the core fighter include...

* Fighting Style improves (and you gain a second one) as part of the core class. The improvement isn't much, but it helps.
* Second Wind now does 1/4 Max Hit Points + Fighter Level. This way it doesn't actively get worse the more HP you get... But it doesn't scale out of control either. Fighter level may be replaced by Con Modifier. I need to actually look a bit into this still
* No bonus ASI, this is for the champion subclass.
* Indomitable is just advantage on saving throws. Awesome, yes, but the Paladin's aura is much stronger. I'm thinking of changing this to +Con to all saves but I like the advantage theme I got going on.
* Champion keeps the crit, gains some HP, gets a free asi/feat, and remarkable athlete is better.
* Battlemaster is simplified. Gains some extra things from the DMG. More uses for their bonus action and reaction. Reaction trip might be a bit much, but since they took sentinel away from the fighter (4e fighter, best fighter) I think making creatures use half their remaining movement to get up is a decent trade off.
* Eldritch Knight was overhauled and this is actually where I still need to work on it. I'm ok with the 2 spells per short rest and the overall idea of it, I just think it needs to be worded better. Way better. Honestly I'm thinking of putting a warmagic or eldritch strike back into this at 10th level. I like the idea of turning spells like Fireball into an Attack versus AC sort of thing, but it might be too much at lower levels that my groups play at.

I know this won't keep up with the barbarian in damage, with the loss of Action Surge and bonus damage from being a battlemaster, but I would like to make sure it does around rogue or a little more than Rogue damage. I haven't actually ran the damage numbers on that just yet. Being able to get free advantage a few times per short rest, without the drawback of reckless attack, should help a bit. I want to keep "damage dealer" a viable option, just not the only option.


::Edit::

I think the defensive fighting style will get changed. Instead of just a +1 to AC, I will allow the fighter to replace their dex mod with their str mod when determining AC in medium armor. I might remove the +1 AC bonus, I'm not sure, but I would like to see more non-heavy armored Strength characters outside of the Barbarian.


Edit Again

I changed up the kits for the Champion. One thing that I hear people miss about 3e is the fighters with a bunch of feats. While, they do get more feats now, it really doesn't come close to what they used to do... So I decided to bring some back with alternative kits.

Alternative kits will be suggestions for changing a subclass up a bit. This will be so that if two people want to play the same class and subclass, there is one more layer before people play the same. A fighter with thunderclap via Eldritch Herald would be fun, actually has the armor and defenses to get into the thick of things and make stuff go boom.

Also, since additional inspiration is a short rest mechanic, I dropped the number of uses down by a couple for a longer period. You don't get 4 until 10th level whereas before you got 4 around level 6 ish.

Gave the core fighter a damage boost. Without action surge it would be doing about the same damage as a rogue at level 5 or so... But then the rogue would get more sneak attack. I'm thinking that putting them on par is fair, since the fighter will have a better chance at hitting if they want (inspiration and subclass options).

Bjarkmundur
2019-05-01, 02:50 PM
Losing action surge to gain advantage, and that advantage can be shared with my allies, sign me up! Just this small change actually makes my decision much harder about whether I want to play EK or AT in my next game xD

Maybe make a Spell Slot, Spell Slot Level and spells known column in the table, similar to the warlock. I think 1 slot per rest is fine to start with, then add one later. You sure about the 1/2 caster progression? Maybe delay it a little? Have it level 6 instead of 5, and level 10 or 11 instead of 9? Maybe it's fine since it's still just two schools.

... It is still just two schools, right?

I'll look at this better later, but so far, I'm invested :)

R.Shackleford
2019-05-02, 04:53 AM
Losing action surge to gain advantage, and that advantage can be shared with my allies, sign me up! Just this small change actually makes my decision much harder about whether I want to play EK or AT in my next game xD

Maybe make a Spell Slot, Spell Slot Level and spells known column in the table, similar to the warlock. I think 1 slot per rest is fine to start with, then add one later. You sure about the 1/2 caster progression? Maybe delay it a little? Have it level 6 instead of 5, and level 10 or 11 instead of 9? Maybe it's fine since it's still just two schools.

... It is still just two schools, right?

I'll look at this better later, but so far, I'm invested :)

Half caster works as the core fighter lost action surge and doesn't have a burst mechanic like the Paladin. So giving it a better spell list than the Paladin and access to the same level of spells should work out. I was thinking of starting it with 1 spell per short rest, but by level 3 or 4, 2 spells per short rest would be needed to keep up.

There's no restriction of schools. Even the base EK can pick up spells, eventually, from outside schools. If you want to make a classic EK, you can, or you can make a Necro/Transmutation EK. Limited schools is a roleplaying issue, not a mechanical issue, so I'm not keeping it. Fun before golden cows after all.

I probably will update the table to reflect the Warlock.

Bjarkmundur
2019-05-02, 05:21 AM
Sounds reasonable. One level of one spell slot should work perfectly.

R.Shackleford
2019-05-02, 05:30 AM
Sounds reasonable. One level of one spell slot should work perfectly.

I'm not sure what you mean?

Bjarkmundur
2019-05-02, 08:26 AM
2nd level: 1 Spell slots
3rd Level: 2 Spell slots
11th Level: 3 Spell slots or just 2, based on playtesting.

R.Shackleford
2019-05-02, 08:57 AM
2nd level: 1 Spell slots
3rd Level: 2 Spell slots
11th Level: 3 Spell slots or just 2, based on playtesting.

Yeah, 1 then 2 would work.

I think I wouldn't ever give the EK more than 2 slots per short rest. The Warlock gets 4 max and if this had 3 slots, it would be level 17 when they got said slot.

This way the Warlock is still the better short rest caster when it comes to slots. The EK will have a better spell list tho.

The EK's 10th level feature will probably change, any suggestions?

Bjarkmundur
2019-05-02, 09:28 AM
I threw this (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ztaWEVP6fROaKSX1Jhq6coyULclvTkTFtjMAqMQJzeM/edit?usp=drivesdk) together for ya. Having a wizard's spell selection shouldn't be a problem. Warlocks deal with its lack of spells with Invocations. This 1/3rd warlock casting doesn't include them, which creates design space for your EK to have a better spell list.

I still think adding a choice of two schools is the right way to go forward. You can use the wording from here as a guide (https://dnd5e.fandom.com/wiki/Wizard), or do something like this.


"You can have one spell known that is not of your chosen schools. The number of spells you can know from other schools is increased by one at levels 8, 14 and 20."

You mean the Eldritch Strike?

Arcane Strike
When you hit with a weapon attack on your turn, you can forgo dealing damage, and instead deliver the effects of one of your known cantrips. A cantrip delivered with this feature does not gain the added effects from your character level.

Or you can move warcasting down to 5, and be able to forgo your extra attack for a cantrip.

R.Shackleford
2019-05-02, 09:52 AM
I threw this (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ztaWEVP6fROaKSX1Jhq6coyULclvTkTFtjMAqMQJzeM/edit?usp=drivesdk) together for ya. Using this, having a fantastic spell selection shouldn't be a problem. It's 1/3rd warlock casting, but without Invocation and Eldritch Blast, which creates design space to have a better spell list.
I still think adding a choice of two schools is the right way to go forward. You can use the wording from here as a guide (https://dnd5e.fandom.com/wiki/Wizard), or do something like this.

"You can have one spell known that is not of your chosen schools. The number of spells you can know from other schools is increased by one at levels 8, 14 and 20."

You mean the Eldritch Strike?

Thanks, though I wouldn't be making him a 1/3 caster on thr highest spell known side of things. First, gaining spells that late is just... Bad. By the time you get your 2nd and 3rd level spells others will vastly overshadow you. Even as a short rest caster, other casters will be on 4th, 5th, and 6th level spells at least and your spells will be an after thought. 1/2 casting is a bit better in this regard and you get some awesome spells while in the sweet zone.

I won't be adding the restriction to specific schools. That's something a player or DM can do, if they want. The restriction is a roleplaying issue in the core PHB and not a balance issue. I don't want to shoehorn people into specific fluff. If a specialist wizard doesn't have to give up any schools, an EK shouldn't have to either.

Anyways.

My Greater Arcane Strike feature, I'm thinking of switching it out as it might be too complex and I would like to keep this subclass a bit more simple.

Bjarkmundur
2019-05-02, 09:57 AM
How about Warcaster, but with all spells? I mean, an EK already attacks and casts a spell with action surge. Why not keep that playstyle in, and just tone it down a bit, like you did with arcane strike.


When you take the Attack action on your turn, you can forgo one attack to cast a spell of 1st Level or higher.

You don't have to restrict which schools, just the number of schools.

1/2 Caster is waaayyyyy too much. Removing action surge only gives you so much design space :/

Bjarkmundur
2019-05-02, 10:03 AM
Thanks, though I wouldn't be making him a 1/3 caster on thr highest spell known side of things. First, gaining spells that late is just... Bad. By the time you get your 2nd and 3rd level spells others will vastly overshadow you. Even as a short rest caster, other casters will be on 4th, 5th, and 6th level spells at least and your spells will be an after thought. 1/2 casting is a bit better in this regard and you get some awesome spells while in the sweet zone

But you can attack with a 2d6 HEAVY WEAPON AND cast a spell. The weapon attack is the other half of your spell level, essentially. If you could only cast a spell on your turn, but not attack, I can see your point. But that's not why we Gish. We Gish to be able to do both ;)

Gish 1
Weapon attack = cantrip instead

Gish 2
Extra Attack = Attack and a cantrip

Gish 3
Extra Attack = Attack and a 2nd level spell

I'll do some DPR calculations to see if you're right and 1/2 Caster is the way to go.

R.Shackleford
2019-05-02, 04:50 PM
But you can attack with a 2d6 HEAVY WEAPON AND cast a spell. The weapon attack is the other half of your spell level, essentially. If you could only cast a spell on your turn, but not attack, I can see your point. But that's not why we Gish. We Gish to be able to do both ;)

Gish 1
Weapon attack = cantrip instead

Gish 2
Extra Attack = Attack and a cantrip

Gish 3
Extra Attack = Attack and a 2nd level spell

I'll do some DPR calculations to see if you're right and 1/2 Caster is the way to go.

Not in the same turn, action surge has been removed. The strike feature I made only lets you turn a spell into a weapon attack, it doesn't give you weapon damage.

As per the example, at 5th level using Arcane Strike with Shocking Grasp you would be doing 2d8 Lightning damage + effect. Now, you can do this with a melee weapon, thrown weapon, or even a ranged weapon so there's a lot of versatility that a sorcerer or wizard doesn't have.

There is no weapon damage as "half the spell".

Even with Greater Arcane Strike, you would turn fireball into an attack roll versus AC, not gain any weapon damage from it.

You could instead choose to do a weapon attack/extra attack, but you aren't casting a spell in the same turn due to not having the ability to do so (outside of bonus action spells, but other casters have that same potential). Arcane Strike doesn't combine magic and weaponry to increase damage, but to modify how you deliver the magic.

Sorry if I wrote arcane strike in a weird way.


Edit

Eldritch Effort allows you to have a +2 to thr attack roll, +2 to the damage roll, reroll 1&2, or gain an offhand attack (still needs to follow the rules for offhand attacks). So the most you can add to a Cantrip in damage is actually 1d6+Stat. This is only to cantrips and not to spells.

If you have the TWF feat, it would be 1d8 + stat.

I may need to modify Edritch Effort as this is more of a damage boost compared to the other fighting styles... Possibly make TWF add modifier to damage with a Cantrip attack.

Edit: Something like...

Eldritch Effort

Archery: When you use a ranged weapon to deliver your Arcane Strike cantrip, you have a +2 to on the attack roll.

Dueling: When you use a weapon in one hand, and no weapon in the other, to deliver your Arcane Strike, you gain +2 bonus to the damage roll.

Great Weapon: Whenever you use a heavy weapon to deliver your arcane strike and roll for damage, you may reroll and 1 or 2 on the damage roll. You must take the new result.

Two Weapon: Whenever you use an action to cast a Cantrip using Arcane Strike and you have a light weapon in your off hand, you channel the magic through both weapons. You deal additional damage equal to your strength or dexterity modifier with the Cantrip used with Arcane Strike.

I think I need to add some stuff for the other fighting styles.

Defense: Whenever you use Arcane Strike, you have resistance to tgat element until the start of your next turn.

Protection: As a reaction, when a creature adjacent to you takes elemental damage of the same type as you have for an arcane strike cantrip, you can give that creature resistance to the damage.

===
Edit : I **might** make some changes like so... Have it where the Eldritch Knight only gets one slot per short rest but gains a new Eldritch Effort feature to help with that (that can scale if above 10th level).

Eldritch Effort (6h Level)
On your turn, you may regain an expended spell slot.

You must finish a long rest before you can use this feature again.

Greater Arcane Strike (10th Level)

Whenever you use Arcane Strike, your base damage is equal to your weapon damage dice, if it's higher than the cantrip's base damage.

===
I think the Eldritch Knight as I have it already is a bit stronger than the champion or battlemaster, to the point where it overshadows them too much. This should bring it in line with the other subclasses.

====

Edit:

Eldritch Weaponry (Level 2)

As an eldritch knight, you've learned to mix your use of magic and weaponry. You learn Mage Hand or Presdigitation and may use your choice as a bonus action.

Additionally, you may choose two additional wizard cantrips that deals Acid, Cold, Fire, Lightning, Poison, or Thunder damage. You may use these cantrips as normal or through your weapon, via Eldritch Weaponry, as an action.

The cantrip becomes a weapon attack versus AC. Using the range or reach of the weapon to determine the range of the cantrip.

Upon a hit you deal cantrip damage and effect, if any.

Fighting Styles do not apply to the Eldritch Weaponry attack, but other features and bonuses for weapon attacks do.

If you gain a damage dealing cantrip from your race, you may use it as part of your Eldritch Weaponry.

For example, at second level you can learn the Acid Splash cantrip. You can use your action to use Eldritch Weaponry to make a weapon attack using your longsword against one or two targets (two, if they're adjacent to each other and within your reach). On a hit the target(s) take 1d6 acid damage each.

Eldritch Knight Spellcasting (2nd Level)

You learn a number of first level wizard spells equal to your Intelligence modifier (minimum 1) + your proficiency modifier. When you gain a new level, you may forget a spell and learn a new one of a level you can cast. The table below shows the highest level spell you may learn.

Your spells always counts as their highest possible level.


Fighter Level: Max Spell Level
2nd: 1st
5th: 2nd
9th: 3rd

You may cast one spell per short rest by expending a spell slot. Intelligence is your spellcasting ability score when not using Eldritch Weaponry.

Additionally, the somatic components of spells, including your Eldritch Weaponry cantrips, are ignored when wielding a weapon.


Eldritch Effort (6h Level)
On your turn, you may regain an expended spell slot.

You must finish a long rest before you can use this feature again.

Greater Eldritch Weaponry (10th Level)

Whenever you use Eldritch Weaponry, your base damage is equal to your weapon damage dice, if it's higher than the cantrip's base damage.

For example, at second level you can learn the Acid Splash cantrip. You can use your action to use Eldritch Weaponry to make a weapon attack using your greatsword against one or two targets (two, if they're adjacent to each other and within your reach). On a hit the target(s) take 2d6 acid damage each.


Battle Magic (10th Level)

Whenever you hit a creature with your Eldritch Weaponry feature, they have disadvantage on the next saving throw they attempt against a spell you cast until the end of your next turn.



Edit: Just realized there are already cantrips that have weird damage types or use your weapon as a damage type... I'll restrict damage types for Eldritch Weaponry for elemental damage.

Edit Again...

I still... Greater Eldritch Weaponry is still meh to me. I think that a play on War Magic, to work with Eldritch Weaponry is the way to go.