[3.5] Weres as bloodlines

[liquidformat]

Hi all,

So I have been thinking for a while about what would be the best way to handle weres/lycans so that they can actually make functional character because lets be honest it aint worth the rhd + the LA to become one. This is only highlighted more by druids, wildshape rangers, were touched master, primeval, and bear warriors that effectively handle everything you could do as a were without shooting you in the foot to do so. So I have finally come to why not using bloodlines to handle this? You really don't get much as far as base bonuses to you in 'human' form, +2 wis, low-light vision, scent, +2 NA, shapechanger subtype, and 5/silver or 10/silver, and finally the ability to either change into an animal or hybred form. And finally, there is the power of the form you can take that seems like it should have some iteration with how much you should pay to have access to said form.

So with all of that said here is my rough idea of how it will function, let me know your thoughts:

From looking everything over I think CR might be a better metric for bloodlines than hd. I am also scrapping the differentiation between inflicted and natural. Finally, a character with say werewolf affliction which would normally give it a minor bloodline, can take a second bloodline level to add the ability to become a dire wolf and a third to add legendary wolf.

Minor: CR <=2; prior to taking first bloodline level creature can not control shifting, +2 wis, low-light vision, scent, +2 NA, and dr 5/silver; after taking first bloodline level gain access to both hybred and animal form, dr 10/silver, and shape control skill.

Intermediate: CR <=3; prior to taking first bloodline level creature can not control shifting, +2 wis, low-light vision, scent, +2 NA, and dr 5/silver; after taking first bloodline level gain access to animal form and shape control skill; second bloodline level cannot be taken before ECL is equivalent to the rhd of were form, the second bloodline level gives dr 10/silver and access to hybred form.

Major: CR <=8; major is always an addition that adds access to the legendary form.

[Kaleph]

The first places where I'd look, if I were interested in a were-whatever PC, would be the quasilycanthrope template, and the "savage progression" templates of SS's web enhancement (please use google-fu to find them, as I'm away from computer).

LA +1 would be feasible, and the options would be perfect flavorwise. The power level wouldn't match what you are proposing.

Btw, I'm not sure I've understood it; do you mean you get some 10 something extra HD by taking 3 BL levels? I should do some math, so I could be wrong, but seems unbalanced.

[liquidformat]

Yes I am aware of both of those already and don't particularly like them. The fact is that surprisingly adding x number of animal hd onto a build is a horrible idea and becomes progressively more horrible the more hd it is.

What I am suggesting is handling the animal and hybrid form the same way you would if you were say a wild shape range/primeval. Through wild shape range I can turn into an animal completely replacing my ability score with the ability scores of the animal and gaining said animals ex attacks, ac, and ac bonus; and then through the primeval I gain a form that allows me to keep my own ability scores and tack on modifiers based on my chosen animal form. So rather than tacking on a huge number of horrible hd that shoot you in the foot I am simply going with bloodline levels that allow you alternate form abilities. This could also be handled by going with 1,2, & 3 LA in place of the bloodline levels. Either would be in my opinion a much better way to handle these.

As I said above with classes that provide wild shape and prcs like primeval, bear warrior, and the unupdated weretouched master we have plenty of examples of how to handle were/lycan creatures without shooting yourself in the foot and building something that is unplayable.

[zlefin]

what's your assessment of the LA rework project's setting for lycanthropy?

[liquidformat]

what's your assessment of the LA rework project's setting for lycanthropy?

The LA assessment thread is actually the reason that I started. The specific post about lycanthropy template glosses over a major issue inside the rating of '+1' which is that that rating only holds up on a baboon and dire rat which only have one rhd of animal hit dice. Once you start taking on more RHD the +0 LA hold up much less +1 LA for the same reasons that animals have -0 LAs you simply aren't getting enough to compensate for the horrible rhd that you are having to eat.

If we instead scrap the rhd altogether and treat these as two abilities, the first a form of wild shape limited to a single form and the second, the variant wild shape allowing you to tack the str, dex, and con bonuses onto your normal ability scores it becomes easier to evaluate in comparison to existing class features. Furthermore, the fact that the more powerful hybred form is linked to only being available once ecl=rhd of animal also balances out the power of the forms.

[Melayl]

I like it.

[illyahr]

You could always use shifters from Eberron. They are explicitly were-descended and have their own bloodlines based on which type of creature they were descended from. They can only shift once per day, but gain more uses as they take Shifter feats.

[CactusAir]

The issue with bloodlines is that the framework for them isn't well suited to dealing with shapeshifting. Savage progressions (3.0, Savage species) is probably a better fit. Best yet, skip[ the HD loss and make Werebeast Monster Classes. Check DSP's monster class books for PF for ideas.