Limited magic under 7th repercussions

[Mike Miller]

I am considering having a baked in limited magic setting for a campaign. Nothing over 6th level is available for spells or powers. Are there negative repercussions to this from a player capability standpoint? I plan on the campaign running around levels 4-16 or so. I feel like it wouldn't really hamper the group, but I would like some brainstorming and/or critical thoughts to develop the concept further. The only consequence that I thought of was the lack of items requiring a spell/power of 7th level or higher. Any insights are appreciated.

[MeimuHakurei]

I am considering having a baked in limited magic setting for a campaign. Nothing over 6th level is available for spells or powers. Are there negative repercussions to this from a player capability standpoint? I plan on the campaign running around levels 4-16 or so. I feel like it wouldn't really hamper the group, but I would like some brainstorming and/or critical thoughts to develop the concept further. The only consequence that I thought of was the lack of items requiring a spell/power of 7th level or higher. Any insights are appreciated.

Given that Epic6 exists, you'll probably not run into too many issues from a lack of high-level magic (which effectively leaves all above 3rd level available). Also, you can easily implement this by changing all full casters to use the Bard's spells per day list instead.

[Eldariel]

Well, the big spells that occur me off the top of my head are:
- True Resurrection: None of this means dying is always a lost level.
- Mind Blank: There's never a hard counter to Scrying. Of course, you still have some counters to teleportation so that's okay.
- Polymorph Any Object: No more magical lairs for bad guys or any of the really fairy tale kinda stuff.

Aside from that, well, space out spell levels a bit more sparsely lest a Wizard just takes 11 levels in Wizard and then is stuck taking whatever since their casting can no longer be advanced meaningfully (they get 4/5 CL from Practiced Spellcaster). This would make Hierophant better but that isn't really worth it.


Overall, it'd probably work fine. Indeed, it's a fair limitation though much of the broken nonsense is already on the table (Planar Binding, Polymorph, Animate Dead and their ilk). This does cut some of the worst offenders out though and you can work on the remaining ones on a spell-by-spell basis.

Magic item prerequisites seem easy enough to replace with lower level equivalents where the item is actually desirable for game. The prerequisites are only relevant for the crafter anyways - as long as that isn't a PC, it doesn't really matter.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

You'll likely see a much higher willingness to multiclass and lose spellcaster levels, which IMO would be healthier for the game because you're likely to see more interesting builds.

Bards wouldn't feel like they need to take Sublime Chord to keep up with other spellcasters, as they'll still get max level spells.

Spells like Simulacrum, Holy Word, and Mind Blank no longer existing isn't necessarily a bad thing. Given the number of books that add new spells to the core game, there's likely a lower level spell that can accomplish nearly the same thing as a given 7th+ level spell without being overpowered. An Egoist can use Restore Extremity (5th) to do the same thing as Regenerate (7th), for example. Revivify (SC) returns a character to life without level loss, as long as it's cast within one relative round of their death (Gentle Repose or Unguent of Timelessness can be used immediately to extend that window).

[Kyutaru]

The most immediate and largest implication I can think of is that Disintegrate becomes all powerful. Any sort of disintegration rays, spells, or methods will result in a destroyed physical body. This cannot be the target of Raise Dead. A piece of the body, ashes counting, is all that is required for the Resurrection spell so it tends to be the direct counter to this body destruction effect. Other methods can cause it like having your corpse eaten by a monster leaving only your foot left.

Now here's the problem:

Disintegrate - lvl 6 spell
Resurrection - lvl 7 spell

There is officially no counter to having your body completely destroyed except for the lvl 4 Druid spell Reincarnate which changes your race entirely. If you're okay with this then go for it. It just means Disintegrate is the upper echelon of destruction magic and a seriously nasty Avada Kadavra curse.

[Biggus]

The most immediate and largest implication I can think of is that Disintegrate becomes all powerful. Any sort of disintegration rays, spells, or methods will result in a destroyed physical body. This cannot be the target of Raise Dead. A piece of the body, ashes counting, is all that is required for the Resurrection spell so it tends to be the direct counter to this body destruction effect. Other methods can cause it like having your corpse eaten by a monster leaving only your foot left.

Now here's the problem:

Disintegrate - lvl 6 spell
Resurrection - lvl 7 spell

There is officially no counter to having your body completely destroyed except for the lvl 4 Druid spell Reincarnate which changes your race entirely. If you're okay with this then go for it. It just means Disintegrate is the upper echelon of destruction magic and a seriously nasty Avada Kadavra curse.

This is a very good point, but the implications of not having Resurrection go further than this. Raise Dead and Revivify require the body to be whole, any missing pieces are still missing when you come back. You can't be brought back if you've been killed by a death effect or turned into an undead. And if you've been dead for more than one day per level of the highest-level Cleric available, you can never be raised.

Other things you can't do include become ethereal, get inherent bonuses, teleport beyond 100 miles per caster level or without a chance or error, or dominate non-humanoids, but the lack of Resurrection is probably the biggest one.

[Mike Miller]

All good points to consider. I think it will be fine, though.

[Telonius]

A few other important (or iconic) spells that will be unavailable:

Plane Shift
Greater Teleport
Blasphemy (and company)
Regenerate
Greater Restoration

EDIT: Just remembered Plane Shift is on the Cleric list too. So yeah, that's a decent shift in the theme of planar travel, to make it an exclusively Divine thing, not Arcane.

[Biggus]

I think it would be an interesting setting to play in. Spells like Wish, Miracle and (True) Resurrection are basically "undo" buttons; if they don't exist, the stakes are higher.

While I do like high-level play, a part of me feels like those kind of powers don't really belong in the hands of mortals (ie, PCs). If the gods (ie, the DM) decide to send a long-dead hero back for example, that's different. I'm struggling to think of any fantasy stories where ordinary mortals have that kind of power.

[Firest Kathon]

Consider making selected spell effects available through alternate means, e.g. Incantations (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/incantations.htm) or Occult Rituals (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/alternative-rule-systems/occult-adventures/occult-rules/occult-rituals/).

[Elkad]

I think you are fine.

A bit more permanently-lethal at the higher levels. Which you could leverage. Instead of just popping down to the corner shop for a True Resurrection scroll, the party might have to complete a quest for a demi-god to get their friend back if they don't want to gamble on Reincarnate

Absence of Mind Blank is fine. Keeps whole schools of magic relevant without having to spam Dispel at the party every fight. Scrying can still be mostly-defeated via NonDetection (CL check), lead-lined rooms, Private Sanctum and various other methods. Which is likely easier for your bad guys in their lairs, and harder for the party on the move - a useful difference from behind the screen.

[Biggus]

Consider making selected spell effects available through alternate means, e.g. Incantations or Occult Rituals.



A bit more permanently-lethal at the higher levels. Which you could leverage. Instead of just popping down to the corner shop for a True Resurrection scroll, the party might have to complete a quest for a demi-god to get their friend back if they don't want to gamble on Reincarnate


I'm liking this idea. If you want any really high-magic spell effects, you have to search for the details of the incantation or the rare components needed for it, or find a mythical creature or divine being who can cast if for you. You can't just cast it yourself at no more than a day's notice, or even head to the nearest big city to find a mage guild or high temple, it becomes a quest hook.

Also that stopping new spell levels five or so class levels before the maximum makes multiclass caster builds like theurges and gishes more viable, and stops class balance going completely out of the window at level 13+. I might have to give this a try myself.

[Kyutaru]

Might even want to qualify 7th lvl magic as EPIC magic. In my opinion, it's the best spell level in the game.

Banishing demons, Spell Turning, perfect teleports, plane shifting, the mansion, MASS Hold Person, Delayed Blast Fireball, Forcecage, Prismatic Spray, Grasping Hand, Simulacrum, Finger of Death, Waves of Exhaustion, Control Weather, Ethereal Jaunt, Limited Wish, Resurrection, Destruction, Greater Restoration, Regenerate, Holy Word, like it has a significant power creep and counters.

Most of these could still be available as extremely top end boss magic or rituals, legendary spells that few have the power to use. Controlling their use would help keep the campaign mundane.

[liquidformat]

This is a very good point, but the implications of not having Resurrection go further than this. Raise Dead and Revivify require the body to be whole, any missing pieces are still missing when you come back. You can't be brought back if you've been killed by a death effect or turned into an undead. And if you've been dead for more than one day per level of the highest-level Cleric available, you can never be raised.

Other things you can't do include become ethereal, get inherent bonuses, teleport beyond 100 miles per caster level or without a chance or error, or dominate non-humanoids, but the lack of Resurrection is probably the biggest one.

Reincarnate solves half of this issue.


Consider making selected spell effects available through alternate means, e.g. Incantations (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/incantations.htm) or Occult Rituals (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/alternative-rule-systems/occult-adventures/occult-rules/occult-rituals/).

I have actually been working on a setting with max level 6 spells and have used Incantations as the stop gap for how to access high level spells pre epic.

The biggest headache I have come across is how to adjust the progression of prepared caster spell progression from the bard's spontaneous list as a baseline.

The other big issue is how to handle monsters with accesses to spells/SLAs at 7+. For me I left all of them as is, but that was more of a setting based decision than power level...

[SLOTHRPG95]

Absence of Mind Blank is fine. Keeps whole schools of magic relevant without having to spam Dispel at the party every fight. Scrying can still be mostly-defeated via NonDetection (CL check), lead-lined rooms, Private Sanctum and various other methods. Which is likely easier for your bad guys in their lairs, and harder for the party on the move - a useful difference from behind the screen.

By this logic, I might go one step further and advocate bumping off True Seeing, even though Clerics and Sor/Wiz usually get it as a below-7th level spell. Sure, the duration is nowhere near as good as Mind Blank, to put it lightly, but getting a hard-counter to basically an entire school of magic at 9th level (Cleric or Arcane Disciple: Knowledge) always seemed a little unbalanced to me.

Separately, I'd like to throw my hat into the whole "this encourages more interesting multiclass casters" ring. Or I guess if players really want, you can let them get their higher-level spell slots like normal, but only be able to cast metamagicked-up spells with them (similar to if they only had 16 Int/Wis/Cha). This'd allow someone who only wants to advance in Wizard, for example, a reason to do so. Sure, they're not getting more powerful spells (per se) past 11th level, but they're still advancing their CL, getting more spell slots, and being able to extend/heighten/empower/quicken/whatever their high-end spells.

[liquidformat]

Separately, I'd like to throw my hat into the whole "this encourages more interesting multiclass casters" ring. Or I guess if players really want, you can let them get their higher-level spell slots like normal, but only be able to cast metamagicked-up spells with them (similar to if they only had 16 Int/Wis/Cha). This'd allow someone who only wants to advance in Wizard, for example, a reason to do so. Sure, they're not getting more powerful spells (per se) past 11th level, but they're still advancing their CL, getting more spell slots, and being able to extend/heighten/empower/quicken/whatever their high-end spells.

That is actually a pretty cool idea, that further encourages taking nonfull and even half caster prcs.

[SLOTHRPG95]

That is actually a pretty cool idea, that further encourages taking nonfull and even half caster prcs.

It also specifically protects some PrCs that're fun at mid-level play from high-level redundancy, such as the Master Transmogrifist. Its toys are fun, but normally going into a 6/10 PrC and then having others get Shapechange (with zero investment) when you get your capstone is... not fun. Similarly, getting a Dominate Monster ability at 12th level via Mindbender can feel totally worth it at the time, but at very high level play (17th+), your choice to go most/all the way through a 5/10 PrC really hurts you. This one, especially, I see often thrown around as a one-level dip, and not worrying so much about speeding toward those high-level spells would encourage people to see it through to the end of this (and other) fun, thematic PrC(s).

Edit: Honorable mention to Wayfarer Guide, who is only "the best" at teleporting people (its whole schtick) for... levels 10-12, a stupidly small range. Oh, and 2/3 casting progression means everyone else gets the spell that obsoletes your abilities a level before you do. Yay!

[Gallowglass]

I have run two pathfinder campaigns that might provide insight to you.

1> no magic over third level is known to exists. For arcane or divine. It is rumored that more powerful magic exists but if you play a caster whether you get any spells above 3rd will depend on the narrative and whether you find out the truth. You may end up capped, who knows. You can use your higher level slots for metamagic enhancements on your lower level spells.

result: two non casters, four casters. enthusiastic around being limited, having to work around those limitations and solving the secret of the missing magic. Ended at 15th level? They had uncovered up to 5th level by that point and, as the only people in the universe with 4th and 5th level spells, felt cooler than anyone!

2> All full casters use the bard spell list. (meaning cap out at 6th level)

result: no full casters made, lots of tier 3 characters (magus, bard, inquisitor, warpriest). Because there was no implication at the start that there was a secret behind the power cap, no one was interested in making a full caster with the new limitations. Only game where some of these other 2/3 classes have ever been played. Played only until 11th level though, so who knows.

In neither case, did they feel the loss of the higher level spells, they just played with what they had. *shrug* But then neither was played at the high level range of 15-20 where it would have been noticed.

[Mike Miller]

I was thinking just having normal progression instead of changing class progressions to match the bard.