Do you think a female expy of James Bond would work?

[Jeivar]

By which I mean globetrotting secret agent/government killer who makes liberal use of seduction. Do you think a film series with a lady agent could theoretically take off, or would the public's double standards get in the way?

[Keltest]

I think that sounds like the premise for a Black Widow movie. I suspect a totally new IP with no established cultural history would flounder, but somebody that people are familiar with could be successful.

[Mordar]

Do you mean like the first couple seasons of Alias? With the right casting, absolutely.

But then don't tease it as Black Widow (I don't think the idea works as a Black Widow movie with the serial numbers filed off because it would just be compared unfavorably to BW).

Don't make Atomic Blonde. Don't make Red Sparrow (which was presented as a BW-style movie in the trailers but clearly...wasn't).

- M

[Lethologica]

Wasn't that Atomic Blonde, basically? They're gonna make a sequel, so I guess the answer is yes.

[Aotrs Commander]

Well, honestly, I think anything that has a main selling point of "like that other thing, but with a slightly different type of human!" can and should utterly fail. 'Cos if "look, it's a [girl/boy/gay/straight/trans/brown/off-pink/child/adult/robot/zombie/alien/dinosaur delete as appropriate] instead of the thing someone did in something else" is the best you can come up with as your central conceit, you frankly don't deserve to succeed. (Unless the inserted thing is Lich, in which case i might dain to give you the benefit of the doubt o the basis no fracker ever gives ME any representation, thank you.)

Try making a good whatever-it-is-you're making first, y'know, and the rest should be largely irrelevant (except to the elements of humanity that are violently opposed to Things That Are Not Them. I mean, more than usual).

So it would work if you happened to make a good movie/series/whatever about spy-like person who happens to be a lady - or perhaps, stay with me, some sort of, I dunno, mouse or something - then it should work, but pallet-swapped James Bond probably won't.



That said, even the more recent examples of this sort of thing that I am personally aware of where it has... regretably backfired were playing on a pre-existing property, which is more of a start.

[Kitten Champion]

As a movie, sure. For instance, I watched Hanna - the movie, not the Amazon series - last week, and it was pretty damn cool. Though it's more comparable to a Jason Bourne than a James Bond. There was Alias on television which was popular enough to give Jennifer Garner a not-exactly-great action movie career. La Femme Nikita spawned its own thing, Atomic Blonde came out... last year I think and was positively reviewed though I haven't seen it yet myself, and Angela Jolie's Salt was critically liked but flew under the radar for audiences.

However, James Bond has created its own niche of action movies which others touch upon to some trepidation, including - at the moment - James Bond. The current Craig-era has thrown some heavy buckets of cold water on the series staples, for good or ill. I should point out that Spy with Melissa McCarthy was both good and why a serious toned and earnest Fem-Bond movie seems fairly implausible now.

Would a Fem-Bond work as a franchise though? Maybe, Black Widow's solo movie turning into a trilogy wouldn't be too surprising, and someone else might do the same. However, nothing is going to sustain itself as Bond has, even its most successful contender in the Bourne franchise has puttered out while more Bond after the next Craig movie is pretty much a certainty.

Oh, and I forgot Mission Impossible, I could see a female lead taking over that whenever Cruise gets over it or the studio him. Not super-likely, but possible.

[Sapphire Guard]

Yes. Just have other women in different kinds of roles in the spy agency, not just the one female lead, and it should be fine.

[Scarlet Knight]

A modern Mata Hari? Sure, but James Bond is more than that. He's seductive, but an expert in many fields, and cool under pressure. Lots of fancy gadgets, memorable villians, Bond can fight but that's not his forte.

So these are all possible with a female agent but we'd have to just emphasize different things.

Increase the erotic scenes, have the villians give up information in a logical way. Decrease the combat, unless she has cool gadgets. Avoid Kingsmen-like suspension of belief. A female Pierce Brosnan would go over better than a female Roger Moore, I think. Cheeky humor works, but she can't be silly.

There would be some double standards, though. Instead of escaping as soon as the villian tells his plans and walks out, she would probably have to escape while the mooks attempt to get something...extra... before killing her.

[2D8HP]

By which I mean globetrotting secret agent/government killer who makes liberal use of seduction...


I belIeve you mean

Modesty Blaise

http://fandangogroovers.files.wordpress.com/2010/11/monica-vitti-modesty-blaise.jpg?w=310&h=597

a character which started as a British comic strip in 1963 (collections of which were still prominent at comic book stores in my youth), and then later novels and even a couple of films.

She even had a male "Moneypenny" equivalent called "Willie Garvin"

[Magic_Hat]

I thought that was Kim Possible. You know minus the whole seduction and cocktails part.

[Rogar Demonblud]

I believe you mean

Modesty Blaise

As someone who read some of those collections, the movie was a travesty.

In addition to Salt and Atomic Blonde, there's also The Long Kiss Goodnight by Shane Black (the sequel is still in pre-production after a decade).

[Raven Brew]

...what did you think of Atomic Blonde? Caught the trailer a bunch and it was quick and hostile!

[OracleofWuffing]

I know it's not a movie, but wasn't "female James Bond" the starting point for Perfect Dark?

[Olinser]

By which I mean globetrotting secret agent/government killer who makes liberal use of seduction. Do you think a film series with a lady agent could theoretically take off, or would the public's double standards get in the way?

They've already done it several times with varying levels of success, but none of them really an out and out success that I can recall.

Most recently Atomic Blonde. She's even an MI6 agent. Made only about $100 million worldwide on a $30 million budget, basically broke even.

Red Sparrow didn't fail, per se, but also wasn't particularly successful, $150 million on a $69 million budget. Again basically just breaking even.

Salt is the only female action spy thriller I can recall that actually had some success, it made some money, $300 million on a $110 budget, not the numbers you want to see with that kind of budget but not a failure.

So yes, it's been done, and it can work with some success.

But if they try and make 007 a female its going to crash and burn the entire franchise.

[Rynjin]

Most recently Atomic Blonde. She's even an MI6 agent. Made only about $100 million worldwide on a $30 million budget, basically broke even.

Tripling your budget is just breaking even?

Or did they overspend on marketing or something?



But if they try and make 007 a female its going to crash and burn the entire franchise.

I don't see how, TBH. Or how it could be any more of a train wreck than the dreadfully boring Craig movies, for that matter.

007 has always been ambiguously a codename for multiple different agents, so a female 007 isn't really beyond the pale. A female James Bond, sure, but not 007.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Unfortunately, yes tripling is not much more than breaking even. Roughly, a movie spends half again its budget in Marketing and Advertising. And the studio only gets about half the box office (depending on nation, exchange rates, etc). 30*1.5=45, half of 100 is 50, so a rough profit of $5 million. A little more since then due to DVDs and Blu-Rays, but those aren't all that remunerative any more in the age of streaming services.

edit: and Red Sparrow and Salt lost money (69*1.5=103.5, 150/2=75, and 110*1.5=165, 300/2=150).

[Olinser]

Tripling your budget is just breaking even?

Or did they overspend on marketing or something?



I don't see how, TBH. Or how it could be any more of a train wreck than the dreadfully boring Craig movies, for that matter.

007 has always been ambiguously a codename for multiple different agents, so a female 007 isn't really beyond the pale. A female James Bond, sure, but not 007.

They spent a lot on marketing. No exact numbers (they never provide them), but they did some major ad buys that obviously didn't pay off. They seem to think there's someplace to go with the series, though, as they are allegedly planning a sequel. Breaking even is sometimes enough for a studio to be willing to invest a bit more in a sequel if they think it can be upgraded to be more widespread popular.

And yes, ANY non James Bond 007 will be beyond the pale. Female, male, white, black, orange, whatever. 007 is James Bond. If you try and make a female 007, its going to tank hard and be hit with massive backlash, as it deserves.

MAYBE if they made them 008 or 006 it would be acceptable.

People keep being surprised when something is sold as 'XXX but its THIS IDENTITY GROUP INSTEAD!!!' and acting surprised when it flops hard because the actual fans of the character aren't interested in it, and the group they're pandering to wasn't actually interested in the first place.

Write your own character and stop trying to mooch off the success of another character or franchise by converting them to whatever group you're trying to pander to.

[Rynjin]

I agree in general terms but for these very vaguely defined characters like 007 and the Doctor it seems like a waste of breath to complain. The character has changed actors over a dozen times in both cases, who cares if one is slightly different from the other 12?

[Olinser]

Unfortunately, yes tripling is not much more than breaking even. Roughly, a movie spends half again its budget in Marketing and Advertising. And the studio only gets about half the box office (depending on nation, exchange rates, etc). 30*1.5=45, half of 100 is 50, so a rough profit of $5 million. A little more since then due to DVDs and Blu-Rays, but those aren't all that remunerative any more in the age of streaming services.

Also remember, Hollywood gets less of a % share of ticket sales from other countries than in America, and $48 million of that was foreign. Some countries have rather high taxes on movies, others have other restrictions and costs associated with translating them, importing them (sometimes altering them so they are ALLOWED in some markets like China), etc.

Then if they want that movie back in the US they have to pay tax to move it.

My understanding is that studios only get about 30-40% of most foreign countries box office receipts on most movies.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Not with Bond. There's only been six (Connery, Lazanby, Moore, Dalton, Brosnan and Craig), which means the next 007 will be number 7.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Depends on the country, again. Much of Europe the studios actually get about 55%, because of how the EU handles taxation on entertainment media and the beneficial exchange rate between the Euro and the Dollar. Brazil's the worst, with a net of about 35%.

[Olinser]

Depends on the country, again. Much of Europe the studios actually get about 55%, because of how the EU handles taxation on entertainment media and the beneficial exchange rate between the Euro and the Dollar. Brazil's the worst, with a net of about 35%.

Remember as well that there are a lot of base costs in other countries that don't change with the actual profit of the movie - import, approval by whatever agency they have that rates/approves movies, various flat taxes/expenses to get it into the country, translation, etc, are all base costs that apply to every movie rather than a % tax on profits, so the less you make the more those costs hit you.

So the less a movie makes in a foreign market the less they get back. Atomic Blonde, for instance, made only a couple hundred thousand dollars in an awful lot of countries, so they probably actually lost money in a lot of countries.

But as I said, Charlize Theron said they're making a sequel, so they may feel that by expanding it they can actually make some reasonable profits on a sequel.

[Frozen_Feet]

Short answer: yes.

Long answer: yyyyyeeees.

Longer answer: was Angelina Jolie's Lara Croft all that different? Was MCU's Black Widow? I'm pretty sure we've had plenty of equivalent characters across media by now.

What's supposed to be exotic about this?

[Kitten Champion]

I know it's not a movie, but wasn't "female James Bond" the starting point for Perfect Dark?

At least, it was Rare's own IP version of their Golden Eye game.

I do wish that became a real, lasting franchise. I know Rare Software turned largely to mulch after being bought out by Microsoft, still, it was X-Files meets James Bonds meets near-future Cyberpunk and with quite a lot of room to grow and evolve. I'd prefer more of it than another Crackdown or whatever.

[ben-zayb]

I mean Diana already does her own covert work in the DCEU, so I wouldn't put it past DC to make a spy thriller WW dequel after 1984. Of course, that would also cause more comparisons between Cap and WW movies.

[Drascin]

I mean, when you have a vaguely competent female character large segments of people start screaming Mary Sue, and now you want to make a female expy of an actual, bonafide Mary Sue?

...actually, you know what, **** it, sure, it's not like those segments wouldn't probably be screaming anyway, let's give this a shot.

[Themrys]

I mean, when you have a vaguely competent female character large segments of people start screaming Mary Sue, and now you want to make a female expy of an actual, bonafide Mary Sue?

...actually, you know what, **** it, sure, it's not like those segments wouldn't probably be screaming anyway, let's give this a shot.


This, basically. People tolerate James Bond's utter Gary Stue - ness because he's male. With a woman, there would be TONS of complaints.

But why not try anyway. Mary Sue fanfic is very popular.

However - you would have to make sure to have it made by an all female team. Really all female, men who think they're in touch with their feminine side don't count. (They're still male, and trust me, it shows) That's really important. If you make it all about catering to males, you target it to the wrong audience. Successful Mary Sue fanfic is written by women.

Women won't watch a female James Bond expy if you make her a seductive sex kitten (not that she can't have sex, but, you know, not in a male-fan-service-y way), and men won't be that interested, either, because James Bond is, as any Mary Sue fiction, wish fulfillment, and it is not wish fulfillment for males anymore if the impossibly competent and successful person is female. Just fanservice doesn't make a movie successful.

[Traab]

Well, honestly, I think anything that has a main selling point of "like that other thing, but with a slightly different type of human!" can and should utterly fail. 'Cos if "look, it's a [girl/boy/gay/straight/trans/brown/off-pink/child/adult/robot/zombie/alien/dinosaur delete as appropriate] instead of the thing someone did in something else" is the best you can come up with as your central conceit, you frankly don't deserve to succeed. (Unless the inserted thing is Lich, in which case i might dain to give you the benefit of the doubt o the basis no fracker ever gives ME any representation, thank you.)

Try making a good whatever-it-is-you're making first, y'know, and the rest should be largely irrelevant (except to the elements of humanity that are violently opposed to Things That Are Not Them. I mean, more than usual).

So it would work if you happened to make a good movie/series/whatever about spy-like person who happens to be a lady - or perhaps, stay with me, some sort of, I dunno, mouse or something - then it should work, but pallet-swapped James Bond probably won't.



That said, even the more recent examples of this sort of thing that I am personally aware of where it has... regretably backfired were playing on a pre-existing property, which is more of a start.

This has always struck me as a little odd. You see, it seems to me that what you are describing tends to be a genre. Lets take one of the semi recent tv series as an example. Remember the "He is a detective... but has THIS for a quirk!" series? We also got various special doctor series, things of that nature. They tend to do at least decently well where its the same show they just added in a different quirk. I think the real issue comes in when its a singular franchise setup, like, THIS is the original, the one and only, now here we go with that but now they have BOOBS! So if you lean heavily on the jane bond angle it becomes less about the great movie and more about the girl power angle, whereas if you are clearly drawing from the rather wide assortment of spy flicks of all stripes out there to make something unique it becomes more about the different twist to a familiar genre. It feels like a thin line, too be honest, and probably has a different border depending on personal taste.

But thats why a black widow movie set in a jane bond style would work, because black widow is her own character and is already established as being exactly that sort of person. Gadgets, excellent infiltration, seductive, and can kick butt when needed. It wouldnt be ripping off james bond (unless you are really terrible at writing a movie) and it wouldnt be a "girl power yay!" flick either, seeing as she has never been about "anything you can do I can do in high heels" as a character. It would just be a solid spy flick with a kick butt female lead. As the other posters have shown, its been done before and just fine so no reason it couldnt work again. It just has to be done without ripping off someone else.

[2D8HP]

..globetrotting secret agent/government killer who makes liberal use of seduction. Do you think a film series with a lady agent could theoretically take off...


Helen Mirren was great in The Debt as a spy, so I think she'd be great in a series of films about a British spy lady, as would Thandie Newton (cause British and awesome!).

Not British, but if Michelle Yeoh reprised her Tomorrow Never Dies character Wai Lin that could work as well, but I'd rather see the "Section 31" Star Trek spin off 'cuz spies IN SPACE!

'cept that they killed off her character, I'd be up for seeing Judi Dench do some ass-kickin' as well.

Maybe a cold war flashback series staring that character (no idea who to cast as I just don't pay as much attention to younger actresses)?

And that ideah brings to mind The Americans which featured a (Russian) lady spy, and if you go back to the '60's "Emma Peel" (Diana Rigg) was awesome in the '60"s The Avengers, and with that thought a good spy thriller that took place in the early cold way (like the Casino Royale novel) would be good.

Oh!

Have it take place in the '40's with the Berlin airlift as a backdrop, and be something more John le Carré than Ian Fleming!

That would be good.

Oh wait, in some sense Hitchcock already made that movie a couple of times.

Dagnabbit!

[HolyDraconus]

Why not Carmen Sandiago? Just take the original story, dump the netflix stuff, and let her protagonists actually age up to adults. Bam, female evil bond?

[Vizzerdrix]

By which I mean globetrotting secret agent/government killer who makes liberal use of seduction. Do you think a film series with a lady agent could theoretically take off, or would the public's double standards get in the way?

You mean Atomic Blonde? I enjoyed it.

[Braininthejar2]

At first I read the title as "Do you think female James Bond would work"

And now it is my headcanon that James Bond is a time lord.

[Peelee]

I belIeve you mean

Modesty Blaise
....
She even had a male "Moneypenny" equivalent called "Willie Garvin"

Well? Willie or won't he?

[Jeivar]

You mean Atomic Blonde? I enjoyed it.

I enjoyed it too, but she wasn't as sexed up as old Jimmy.

[Aotrs Commander]

This has always struck me as a little odd. You see, it seems to me that what you are describing tends to be a genre. Lets take one of the semi recent tv series as an example. Remember the "He is a detective... but has THIS for a quirk!" series? We also got various special doctor series, things of that nature. They tend to do at least decently well where its the same show they just added in a different quirk. I think the real issue comes in when its a singular franchise setup, like, THIS is the original, the one and only, now here we go with that but now they have BOOBS! So if you lean heavily on the jane bond angle it becomes less about the great movie and more about the girl power angle, whereas if you are clearly drawing from the rather wide assortment of spy flicks of all stripes out there to make something unique it becomes more about the different twist to a familiar genre. It feels like a thin line, too be honest, and probably has a different border depending on personal taste.

But thats why a black widow movie set in a jane bond style would work, because black widow is her own character and is already established as being exactly that sort of person. Gadgets, excellent infiltration, seductive, and can kick butt when needed. It wouldnt be ripping off james bond (unless you are really terrible at writing a movie) and it wouldnt be a "girl power yay!" flick either, seeing as she has never been about "anything you can do I can do in high heels" as a character. It would just be a solid spy flick with a kick butt female lead. As the other posters have shown, its been done before and just fine so no reason it couldnt work again. It just has to be done without ripping off someone else.

That's what I mean. If the selling of your film is about replacing/aping to a large degree something starring this type of human-thing with another type of human-thing over the focus of being a good thing it's likely going to be a bit crap at the least.

Making a good thing that happens to have a particular type of human-thing be the main character is a - perhaps all to often, subtle - distinction.

It is of the same level as the example of not setting out to write female characters, but to write good characters that happen to be female. (Replace "female" with whatever you fancy for wider applications.)



(But for the record, I really don't think much of "s/he is a doctor/police/person but WITH QUIRK" to be engaging. CSI only got me to start with on the science, and Murdoch Mysteries because of the historica setting AND because it was funny (and I'd have watched neither if I hadn't started watching them with Mum.))

[2D8HP]

Well? Willie or won't he?


I call him an equivalent of Moneypenny because he and Modesty have a flirtatious but chaste relationship, and both have other romantic partners, but... In a 1996 story one off story (seperate from the comic strips where they don't age until the series ended in 2001) in which the characters are in their late 50's/early 60's... They share their first romantic kiss after decades of working together and... ...she dies..
...he buries her and... he's killed, happiness just isn't in the cards with the spy game

[Tvtyrant]

Spy movies are rather out of date, so no. The ones that do well now are campy like Kingsmen or Burn After Reading because realistic spies don't make sense in a world of network security.

[Rogar Demonblud]

You have a narrow view of the spy world. All network security is doing is de-emphasizing one particular section of ELINT in favor of everything else.

[Reddish Mage]

What I’m getting is basically every female spy-type is female James Bond. Also, I think the term “expy” is getting stretched beyond having any meaning.

[Scarlet Knight]

What I’m getting is basically every female spy-type is female James Bond.

Well, I guess it comes to motive; are we making James Bond a woman just to promote an agenda that women are interchangible with men? Or do we want to make a good spy movie with a strong female lead?

I suggest making the best James Bond movie you can, write it with Roger Moore in mind, and then everywhere the words "James Bond" appear, replace them with "Emma Peel". You'd have a good movie and not tick off the Bond fans, who likely already are fans of Mrs. Peel.


Not to derail the thread, we know Bond films are famous for their "Bond girls", but what names would we give ..um..."Peel men"?

Hans Groppin? Roman Lipz? Rhee Lee Hung?

[Cazero]

Not to derail the thread, we know Bond films are famous for their "Bond girls", but what names would we give ..um..."Peel men"?

Hans Groppin? Roman Lipz? Rhee Lee Hung?
Steed. John Steed.

[Fyraltari]

At first I read the title as "Do you think female James Bond would work"

And now it is my headcanon that James Bond is a time lord.
Of course, he’s Rassilon, didn’t you know?

[Rynjin]

Steed. John Steed.

I like Lance, myself. Choose your last name, Lance makes pretty much anything sound sexual. Lance Steele. Lance Carpenter. Lance Head. Lance Morcock. I could go on.

I did really like Rhee Lee Hung from above though.

[ben-zayb]

Kingdom of Loathing (http://kol.coldfront.net/thekolwiki/index.php/LI-11_HQ) already has that covered: Barry L. Eagle, Oliver Closehoff, Mitt Jobs, Ben Dover, Jacques Trappe, etc.

[Peelee]

I suggest making the best James Bond movie you can, write it with Roger Moore in mind

So voodoo zombie villain who can't be killed? Goldfinger with the serial numbers filed off? Lasers in space? I thought you were trying to outline how to make a good movie!

[Tyrant]

I mean, when you have a vaguely competent female character large segments of people start screaming Mary Sue, and now you want to make a female expy of an actual, bonafide Mary Sue?

...actually, you know what, **** it, sure, it's not like those segments wouldn't probably be screaming anyway, let's give this a shot.
I'm not going to claim to be up on all of the various controversies, but with the recent (say last 10 years or so) comic book movies have their been any serious complaints about any of them aside from Captain Marvel? Did Wonder Woman (a literal god) really cause an uproar anywhere? Any MCU lady aside from Captain Marvel?

On the flipside, how well did the last Ghostbusters do again? Ocean's 8? Maybe the folks who want these should actually go watch them and help them succeed.

This, basically. People tolerate James Bond's utter Gary Stue - ness because he's male. With a woman, there would be TONS of complaints.

But why not try anyway. Mary Sue fanfic is very popular.

However - you would have to make sure to have it made by an all female team. Really all female, men who think they're in touch with their feminine side don't count. (They're still male, and trust me, it shows) That's really important. If you make it all about catering to males, you target it to the wrong audience. Successful Mary Sue fanfic is written by women.

Women won't watch a female James Bond expy if you make her a seductive sex kitten (not that she can't have sex, but, you know, not in a male-fan-service-y way), and men won't be that interested, either, because James Bond is, as any Mary Sue fiction, wish fulfillment, and it is not wish fulfillment for males anymore if the impossibly competent and successful person is female. Just fanservice doesn't make a movie successful.
Maybe I'm the odd man out here, but I watch most Bond movies for the "spy" (he really is a terrible spy) portions with the action, gadgets, and ridiculous villain plots. I mostly laugh at the "romance" (except in The World Is Not Enough and the more recent ones with Craig) becase of the absurdity. And I liked Atomic Blonde (and the recent Tomb Raider). Charlize Theron's character was competent and successful while still dealing with the reality that by and large men are larger and stronger. She won, but she didn't do so without a scratch. Also something the newer Bond movies have tried to illustrate. I see no reason why it can't work if it's written well, which is far more important than the composition of the writing team or any other portion of the production. Starting with the idea that "this group must be XYZ" is the first step towards ruination. You get people that are good, not that meet all the arbitrary standards that have nothing to do with talent. If they happen to be all women after that, great.

That's what I mean. If the selling of your film is about replacing/aping to a large degree something starring this type of human-thing with another type of human-thing over the focus of being a good thing it's likely going to be a bit crap at the least.

Making a good thing that happens to have a particular type of human-thing be the main character is a - perhaps all to often, subtle - distinction.

It is of the same level as the example of not setting out to write female characters, but to write good characters that happen to be female. (Replace "female" with whatever you fancy for wider applications.)
I think you pretty well nailed it here. I didn't go watch the last Ghostbusters because I knew that the idea began with "hey, let's remake Ghostbusters but with all women". Now, in fairness, that could still be entertaining. I like most of the women in the movie from other things I have seen them in. But, I was pretty sure that the driving force was "all women" and not "entertaining movie" and then the previews did nothing to convince me otherwise. I'm sure I will watch it eventually, but I wasn't going to spend money on it. I had other reasons on that particular movie, not the least of which was that there was no reason to not try to make it a sequel to the other two. On the other hand, I had no issue with Atomic Blonde and I did go watch that in a theater. Had it been retitled Jane Bond I probably would have taken issue with it.


So voodoo zombie villain who can't be killed? Goldfinger with the serial numbers filed off? Lasers in space? I thought you were trying to outline how to make a good movie!
Goldfinger was Connery, and was good. But what do you have against Moonraker and Live and Let Die? Moonraker is great. Villainous plot to kill everyone on Earth so a race of super people who are hiding in space can take over, ending with a laser battle in space? I don't care what anyone says, the Moore era was awesome.

As far as the OPs question, just make a movie with the current Moneypenny. We know that she has field experience so it's not unprecedented. Just expand the Bond franchise. Likewise with the calls for someone like Idris Elba to play a black James Bond. Have him play another 00 agent in the upcoming movie and then give him a spinoff. Don't have him be a carbon copy of Bond (though I would expect similarities due to the job), let him be his own character.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Idris Elba is a little old to hang an action franchise on. Make it John Boyega.

[Reddish Mage]

Well, I guess it comes to motive; are we making James Bond a woman just to promote an agenda that women are interchangible with men? Or do we want to make a good spy movie with a strong female lead?

This “agenda” stuff suggests you want to talk politics but instead may I suggest taking the OP’s question literally:

Would a female as James Bond be interchangeable? Could a female “Jamie Bond” do something like “Casino Royale” beat for beat, motion by motion, line for line. Could you have other actors react to her in the same way with the same emotional registers? How would audiences react?

I think without question everything suddenly becomes very different, simply by changing James Bond gender, suddenly the movie changes. The characters react to the female super spy quite differently, the scenes carry a different weight and we get something that appears different.

This is why the term “expy” is inappropriate. The term denotes characters which are deliberate near carbon copies. Like Marvel’s Hyperion and Power Princess. Perhaps you could stretch it for Shazam (DC did in that lawsuit) back in the 1940’s when Superman was your only flying strongman superhero. Perhaps a sexually assertive, hard-drinking, resourceful and violent female spy would be “female James Bond” in the 1960’s.

Today, she looks like every female spy.

You could say every femme fatale female spy from Nikita to Black Widow is just female James Bond. That’s almost be like suggesting every double-life living vigilante power-wielding superhero is Superman...we’ve got way past that and now it’s just the genre standard convention, rather than something associated with a single character.

So you can’t get female James Bond for two reasons, first she’d appear too different to be Bond’s “expy,” and second she looks every other female spy.

[DavidSh]

Could a female “Jamie Bond” do something like “Casino Royale” beat for beat, motion by motion, line for line..
The original spoof-like "Casino Royale" movie? Absolutely. There were enough James Bonds in that movie, that I wouldn't be surprised if there weren't already a female "Jamie Bond" that I just don't remember.

[Tyrant]

Idris Elba is a little old to hang an action franchise on. Make it John Boyega.
Elba is the example I always see thrown out so that's what I went with. I've only seen Boyega in three movies so I can't comment much on him but he is younger so he might be the better bet in this hypothetical.

[Reddish Mage]

You know, if you like an actor enough, you could give him or her any role, do whatever to adapt the role for the actor, and the audience will love it because they love the actor.

[Peelee]

Goldfinger was Connery, and was good.

Goldfinger was Connery, but Goldfinger with the serial numbers filed (https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0090264/) off was Moore. The Moore era was terrible.:smalltongue:

And, similar to you, I don't care what anyone says, Dalton was one of the best Bonds ever and it's a crime he only got two movies.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Could a female “Jamie Bond” do something like “Casino Royale” beat for beat, motion by motion, line for line.

There'd be a few changes. The fight at the start between Bond and the other spy in the bathroom would be a tad more visceral with a size difference, as would the fight on the tanker truck. The relationship with Felix would not be "imminent bromance". The 'tie a naked Bond in a chair for torture' scene would draw a Hard R rating. And the relationship with Vesper would have lots more subtle nuances if it's same sex instead of a retread of hero-bangs-all-the-women.

Most of the rest would play much the same, as it is mainly Bond annoys M, Bond plays cards, and Bond is sexy and lethal.

[Mightymosy]

By which I mean globetrotting secret agent/government killer who makes liberal use of seduction. Do you think a film series with a lady agent could theoretically take off, or would the public's double standards get in the way?

I don't have time or lust to read through this thread. Please just point me to the kickstarter page into which I have to dump money in to make it happen :smallbiggrin:

Limitation: I want a GOOD protagonist. Not this antihero crap, please.

[Mordar]

What I’m getting is basically every female spy-type is female James Bond. Also, I think the term “expy” is getting stretched beyond having any meaning.

That's what I'm reading too, to an extent, and I think (for instance) the mood and presentation of Atomic Blonde is *nothing* like James Bond, nor is Red Sparrow. I hold that Alias remains the closest I've seen, and that (pre-Da Vinci Code crappy part) was even borderline too serious.


I don't have time or lust to read through this thread. Please just point me to the kickstarter page into which I have to dump money in to make it happen :smallbiggrin:

Limitation: I want a GOOD protagonist. Not this antihero crap, please.

Concur with the no antihero. Don't need deep. Don't need thought-provoking. Need solid plot, good gadgets, melodrama and not-quite-super-villain villains.

- M

[2D8HP]

...just make a movie with the current Moneypenny. We know that she has field experience so it's not unprecedented. Just expand the Bond franchise...


Naomie Harris?

Made an Officer of the Order of the British Empire (OBE) by Queen Elizabeth, actress Naomie Harris?

By Crom I'd watch that!

Splendid idea!

Now someone suggest who to cast in a new Red Sonja please.

[jayem]

By which I mean globetrotting secret agent/government killer who makes liberal use of seduction. Do you think a film series with a lady agent could theoretically take off, or would the public's double standards get in the way?

James Bond doesn't really use seduction, he "get's the girl".
You could easily do a straight up film about a globetrotting secret agent/crook etc... who actually uses seduction (something of the likes of Scandal and numerous real life examples ). Violence (by them) wouldn't really fit in (that would show they failed the seducing). It would play directly into stereotype but there are even lots of male real life examples.
You could easily do a straight up 'actively awesome' (seduction would be optional (e.g. Mr&Mrs Smith), and imo may cheapen the activeness)

"Getting the guy" (wish fulfilment-style), I don't think will work too well. For many reasons. Firstly (unless they change the demographics) she'd be the one with the choice (The Bond girl choses Bond over the villain, Bond gets the Bond girl from the villain, Bondetta choses the villain? over the henchman?, the Villain gets the Bondetta).
That said I'm sure there's some way round, such as the "I can change him type".

[Tyrant]

Goldfinger was Connery, but Goldfinger with the serial numbers filed (https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0090264/) off was Moore. The Moore era was terrible.:smalltongue:

And, similar to you, I don't care what anyone says, Dalton was one of the best Bonds ever and it's a crime he only got two movies.
Ah, didn't realize you meant A View To A Kill. Although I am hard pressed to dislike a movie that ends with a fight with Christopher Walken on a blimp over the Golden Gate Bridge after a failed plot to flood Silicon Valley*. I used to not like Dalton but a couple years ago some channel (maybe G4 before they stopped existing) ran his two movies a lot and I watched them repeatedly out of boredom and came to appreciate him a little more. In general I like the different Bonds for different reasons. I like the Moore era for the wacky and zany parts and at the same time like the Craig era for the closer attempt at "realism" (for lack of a better word) where Bond is allowed to feel loss and get hurt and be something approaching a normal (given the circumstances) person. Maybe it was Dalton only having two movies that didn't allow him to develop his own "feel" that put me off. I know I don't have anything against Dalton in general.

*It's absurdities like this that draw me to the Moore movies. Somehow I feel like they usually pulled it off when they should probably be utter disasters.

[Kitten Champion]

James Bond doesn't really use seduction, he "get's the girl".
You could easily do a straight up film about a globetrotting secret agent/crook etc... who actually uses seduction (something of the likes of Scandal and numerous real life examples ). Violence (by them) wouldn't really fit in (that would show they failed the seducing). It would play directly into stereotype but there are even lots of male real life examples.
You could easily do a straight up 'actively awesome' (seduction would be optional (e.g. Mr&Mrs Smith), and imo may cheapen the activeness)


While that's generally true from what I've seen, it's also not outside of his character to pick up women simply to further his espionage work. Craig does it explicitly in Casino Royale, which was the most into sexualizing Bond himself rather than focusing on the vicarious Mary Sue experience of him sleeping with attractive women while treating most of them like **** and that being somehow admirable and worthy of emulation.



"Getting the guy" (wish fulfilment-style), I don't think will work too well. For many reasons. Firstly (unless they change the demographics) she'd be the one with the choice (The Bond girl choses Bond over the villain, Bond gets the Bond girl from the villain, Bondetta choses the villain? over the henchman?, the Villain gets the Bondetta).
That said I'm sure there's some way round, such as the "I can change him type".

Doing any straight Bond adaptation in [insert current year] is pretty hard. The Kingsman movies did the grosser Bond tropes as close to the spirit of classic Bond movie, but still they were laced with hefty doses of satire.

Problem is, we've seen fiction where women spies used sex for espionage and it's generally... ugly and dehumanizing.

[Frozen_Feet]

Problem is, we've seen fiction where women spies used sex for espionage and it's generally... ugly and dehumanizing.

We've also seen Skyfall, where Mr. Bond is basically an aging, alcoholic sociopath with shaky hands and is compared to a cannibalistic rat.

Let' s do Skyfall with inverted genders. :smallamused:

[Rogar Demonblud]

It would play hobb with the homoerotic conversations with Silva.

[AMFV]

By which I mean globetrotting secret agent/government killer who makes liberal use of seduction. Do you think a film series with a lady agent could theoretically take off, or would the public's double standards get in the way?

I think that most male copies of James Bond don't succeed. There have been a few, and they have not taken off in-general outside of single movie outings. I think that a female expy would have the same exact troubles in getting started that a male expy would, actually a little less because people might not see it as a copy in the same way.

[Kyberwulf]

I would think the OP wanted to talk politics from the "double standards" line.

I don't think it would do that well. I think the James Bond love died awhile ago, and the only people that really love the movies are getting older. Besides, anyone who would want to see a female version of James bond, would most likely be hypocrites.

I mean the same people that would claim to want to see a Jane Bond... are probably the same people that complain that James Bond promotes toxic masculinity. How can you hate it in one, and laude it in another.. that would be a..... double standard. I would go so far as to say it promotes toxic femininity.

[2D8HP]

...I think the James Bond love died awhile ago, and the only people that really love the movies are getting older..


Who still living isn't getting older?


...Besides, anyone who would want to see a female version of James bond, would most likely be hypocrites.

I mean the same people that would claim to want to see a Jane Bond... are probably the same people that complain that James Bond promotes toxic masculinity....


I dispute that.

I'm pretty sure that those of us saw Red Sonja (and bought the comics!), also saw Conan the Barbarian (and bought the comics, read the books and saw Conan the Destroyer!), and I recall no discussion of "toxic masculinity" back then.

[halfeye]

There have probably already been dozens.

Ripley in Aliens, the Wonder Woman TV series, the Girl from Uncle TV series, Modesty Blaise in the books and newspaper cartoons (the film was taking the mickey) ...

[AMFV]

I would think the OP wanted to talk politics from the "double standards" line.

I don't think it would do that well. I think the James Bond love died awhile ago, and the only people that really love the movies are getting older. Besides, anyone who would want to see a female version of James bond, would most likely be hypocrites.

Hey, it's estimate that hypocrites comprise 100% of the market share of everything. Marketing to them would be awesome if anyone could figure out how to do it.

[Scarlet Knight]

I would think the OP wanted to talk politics from the "double standards" line.

Yes there are double standards; we just have to be aware. A naked torture scene like Craig's would have backlash, but a female Bond bisexual sex scene would rocket sales.


... I like the Moore era for the wacky and zany parts and at the same time like the Craig era for the closer attempt at "realism" (for lack of a better word) where Bond is allowed to feel loss and get hurt and be something approaching a normal (given the circumstances) person...

*It's absurdities like this that draw me to the Moore movies. Somehow I feel like they usually pulled it off when they should probably be utter disasters.

When I asked for a Bond story to be written for Emma Peel I chose Roger Moore because I felt his Bond matched Emma Peels cheekiness better than other Bonds.


Steed. John Steed.
I was hoping for a Peel prequel without Steed to allow Emma to shine & for more flexibilty in plot / seduction.




I'm pretty sure that those of us saw Red Sonja (and bought the comics!), also saw Conan the Barbarian (and bought the comics, read the books and saw Conan the Destroyer!), and I recall no discussion of "toxic masculinity" back then.
Well to be fair, "toxic masculinity" didn't exist in the 80's. Being "masculine" was still a positive trait back then... I miss it.

[Jeivar]

Problem is, we've seen fiction where women spies used sex for espionage and it's generally... ugly and dehumanizing.

Probably strongly reflective of real-life spying, though.

[Peelee]

Well to be fair, "toxic masculinity" didn't exist in the 80's. Being "masculine" was still a positive trait back then... I miss it.

There's a pretty wide gulf between masculinity and toxic masculinity.

[Hopeless]

Why not Carmen Sandiago? Just take the original story, dump the netflix stuff, and let her protagonists actually age up to adults. Bam, female evil bond?

Depends which way you want to go.

The cast are chasing after her or she's the one operating behind the scenes being chased by various foes and erstwhile allies well they don't know they're allies anyway!:smallwink:

How about something a mite more original?

Starts of as resembling a Mission Impossible or Fast & the Furious spin off then reveal its about a former child soldier attempting to prevent World War Three and various other Apocalyptic events whilst either being chased by various foes and allies (who are completely unaware she isn't the bad guy but actually the one woman army dedicated to being the Big Sister with a Really Bad Reputation!:smalltongue:) or an Illuminanti style organisation that's basically wiped out the rest of her people only they missed her and she's now found out about them and she has no intention of letting them threaten her new family or anyone else's!

Sort of what Captain Marvel should have been, but wasn't because they didn't give themselves the two movies to explain it properly?

Just wondering who would fit the bill if you were going to cast this new Jemima Bond?

Would she even be English?

Gal Gadot's done this stuff hasn't she?

[Frozen_Feet]

It would play hobb with the homoerotic conversations with Silva.

Easy solution, invert everyone. :smallamused:

[2D8HP]

...Just wondering who would fit the bill if you were going to cast this new Jemima Bond?

Would she even be English?...


Already suggested:


...just make a movie with the current Moneypenny. We know that she has field experience so it's not unprecedented. Just expand the Bond franchise...


And seconded:


Naomie Harris?

Made an Officer of the Order of the British Empire (OBE) by Queen Elizabeth, actress Naomie Harris?

By Crom I'd watch that!

Splendid idea!....


Born in London (so English) was in two Pirates of the Caribbean as well as two recent Bond films, I think she'd be a fine lead for Moneypenny: Out for Vengeance!

[The Jack]

I thought that was Kim Possible. You know minus the whole seduction and cocktails part.
That was a fun show.


This, basically. People tolerate James Bond's utter Gary Stue - ness because he's male. With a woman, there would be TONS of complaints.
James Bond isn't a Gary Stue, He's either a Flawed man or not to be taken seriously depending on the movie.


But why not try anyway. Mary Sue fanfic is very popular. It's very popular to hate it.


Successful Mary Sue fanfic is written by women.
Unsuccessful mary sue fanfic is written by women. Most Mary Sue fanfic is written by women IE Men haven't jumped at this chance to be a hack quite so much as to be good at it, it doesn't mean they can't.


Women won't watch a female James Bond expy if you make her a seductive sex kitten (not that she can't have sex, but, you know, not in a male-fan-service-y way), and men won't be that interested, either, because James Bond is, as any Mary Sue fiction, wish fulfillment, and it is not wish fulfillment for males anymore if the impossibly competent and successful person is female. Just fanservice doesn't make a movie successful.
You gotta calm down on the low quality offensive stereotyping.


A good character that happens to be female will reach the broadest possible audience whilst a character that's good because she's female will reach five men and less than half of the female population because the others refuse to be so patronized. Intelligent women don't care for the blatant pandering; They admire individuals and don't need group empowerment to get past obstacles. The Broadest possible audience will always be a better target than some special interest group, both financially and for any culture war.

[Frozen_Feet]

Unsuccessful mary sue fanfic is written by women. Most Mary Sue fanfic is written by women IE Men haven't jumped at this chance to be a hack quite so much as to be good at it, it doesn't mean they can't. °

It isn't just fanfics. Last time I saw statistics on this, 80% of new genre literature is written by women, at least locally. Ergo writing prose is girly, didn't you know? :smalltongue:

[GentlemanVoodoo]

By which I mean globetrotting secret agent/government killer who makes liberal use of seduction. Do you think a film series with a lady agent could theoretically take off, or would the public's double standards get in the way?

I see this question in two ways depending on what you mean OP.

If you are specifically meaning as in the James Bond world and not generally speaking of spy movie genre, then the answer is no. The simple reason is it wouldn't be James Bond. For better or for ill, the movies and books involving this character have been just for that character. To simply do a gender swap and past the 007 label on them doesn't work because it is still a different character lacking many of the qualities, again for better or ill, that have come to define the character itself.

Now if you are referring to general spy movies with female lead then yes these work and already several examples have been stated in the prior post already. But you do bring up the interesting aspect of the double standard which ultimately depends on how much sensuality the character is to have. Dash on the sexual charisma James Bond had and probably you will have many in an uproar calling fowl or saying it is masochistic playing out to male fantasies of a super sexy female spy.

Getting back to James Bond if they just wanted to change up the formula and not have James Bond anymore then this movie should leave it off where Bond has now entered retirement or died heroically where a new female Brittish spy, presumably an apprentice of some sort, rises up within the James Bond world but has her on thing going forward. The iconic moniqure of 007 is retired for good out of respect for bond and new female spy is called something like 008 or whatever. That would really be the best way to approach this so Hollywood gets its woman power thing going on while fans of James Bond don't rise up in anger feeling disrespected. Win win for everyone.

[Frozen_Feet]

Man, this is starting to sound like that time when someone said Captain Marvel would be a radical feminist propaganda movie... and all I could think was "a big budget Hollywood radical feminist propaganda movie? Why, that sounds like comedy gold! Make me one!"

For context, I'm the sort of person who has run several kilometers in the rain to catch some French art horror movie that began with a shot from inside a woman's vagina. So a lot of these arguments about "double standards" or something being "too political" or "too edgy" for the big screen just make me go "D'awww, that's cute, you're all so cute!" .

[Aotrs Commander]

For context, I'm the sort of person who has run several kilometers in the rain to catch some French art horror movie that began with a shot from inside a woman's vagina.

What frightens me about that sentence is that, given the... education... I've had from such fine gentleman as Brad Jones and Kyle Kallgren, I'm pretty sure the second half isn't a hyperbolic example...

[Zmeoaice]

But thats why a black widow movie set in a jane bond style would work, because black widow is her own character and is already established as being exactly that sort of person. Gadgets, excellent infiltration, seductive, and can kick butt when needed. It wouldnt be ripping off james bond (unless you are really terrible at writing a movie) and it wouldnt be a "girl power yay!" flick either, seeing as she has never been about "anything you can do I can do in high heels" as a character. It would just be a solid spy flick with a kick butt female lead. As the other posters have shown, its been done before and just fine so no reason it couldnt work again. It just has to be done without ripping off someone else.

If she doesn't fight comic booky villains like MODOK, Crimson Dynamo or the Serpent Society imma not interested.

[jayem]

Born in London (so English) was in two Pirates of the Caribbean as well as two recent Bond films, I think she'd be a fine lead for Moneypenny: Out for Vengeance!
That does seem the ideal way for the 'explicitly Bond world' variant. I'm excited for it. Not least cause it gives you a bit more freedom to take the character in a number of directions.

Practically I'd think it ought to be able to take it [a female 007], already by Connery the complaint about (film) Bond not being (book) Bond could be made, by the time Moore systematically plays Bond, he's been interpreted by Nelson, Connery, Moore(himself), Niven (+3 men& 3 women), &Lazenby it's a pretty broad box.

[Storm_Of_Snow]

This, basically. People tolerate James Bond's utter Gary Stue - ness because he's male. With a woman, there would be TONS of complaints.

I don't think it's tolerated "because he's male" - I think it's tolerated because it's crept in slowly over the years and people didn't quite notice - Dr No and From Russia With Love's characterisations are a lot different to even Diamonds Are Forever, let alone the Moore era and the later Brosnan films.

[Frozen_Feet]

What frightens me about that sentence is that, given the... education... I've had from such fine gentleman as Brad Jones and Kyle Kallgren, I'm pretty sure the second half isn't a hyperbolic example...

Now I want to give you the name of the movie, but my memory is failing me.

It was about a woman who falls in love with her shrink... then, after he quits their doctor-patient-relationship in favor of a romantic relationship, she finds out he has a twin brother... who is also a shrink... and also darker & sexier & all eager to bend some rules of doctor-patient-relationship... who her now-boyfriend never told her about...

... I think it was something super generic? "Split"? Nah. "Another"? Nah. "Twins"? Nah.

Oh yeah, now I remember: l'Amant Double.

Have fun watching. :smallamused:

[The Jack]

°

It isn't just fanfics. Last time I saw statistics on this, 80% of new genre literature is written by women, at least locally. Ergo writing prose is girly, didn't you know? :smalltongue:

I can be girly! My 12th year romance extract made my teacher cry! Nah seriously, 'you can't do something good because of your gender' what the hell is this? Those're fighting words.

[Traab]

If she doesn't fight comic booky villains like MODOK, Crimson Dynamo or the Serpent Society imma not interested.

I mean, its Black Widow, so her infiltrating AIM is almost a given.

[Tyndmyr]

By which I mean globetrotting secret agent/government killer who makes liberal use of seduction. Do you think a film series with a lady agent could theoretically take off, or would the public's double standards get in the way?

Atomic Blonde exists, so yeah, it works.

[Reddish Mage]

Doing any straight Bond adaptation in [insert current year] is pretty hard. The Kingsman movies did the grosser Bond tropes as close to the spirit of classic Bond movie, but still they were laced with hefty doses of satire.

Problem is, we've seen fiction where women spies used sex for espionage and it's generally... ugly and dehumanizing.

Where you say Kingsman is “satire” I think you mean “pastiche.”

[Lethologica]

Where you say Kingsman is “satire” I think you mean “pastiche.”
Perhaps 'parody'. Kingsman ups the ham and lampshades the tropes, but not for the sake of rejecting or criticizing them.

[Kitten Champion]

When your most memorable scene is Colin Firth massacring an Evangelical Church and that's mostly played for laughs and stylistic coolness, it's probably somewhat satirical. This being Mark Millar there's not much cogency to the criticisms beyond a general **** you, but there's some deliberate pokes involved.

[Zmeoaice]

I mean, its Black Widow, so her infiltrating AIM is almost a given.

And an accurate version of AIM where they wear those yellow containment suits and are led by a floating head that can fly with rocket, not the nonsense we got in Iron Man 3

[Reddish Mage]

Perhaps 'parody'. Kingsman ups the ham and lampshades the tropes, but not for the sake of rejecting or criticizing them.

I think part parody, part pastiche (which is most pastiche, see Order of the Stick).

Aheem! Attention!

Now is time to sum up everything I learned about female James Bond in the thread:


1. Female James Bond is Impossible because
a. Something something men
b. Something something women
c. See also Female James Bond would be awful

2. Female James Bond would be is awful because
a. It would be terribly regressive
b. It would be super aggressively progressive (this would be terrible)

3. Female James Bond needs to happen and will be Gold
a. For reasons other people said are terribly regressive and aesthetically ugly
b. I have the actor to play her
c. I have a favorite actual James Bond actor or potential new guy to play James Bond (yeah this one is random)
d. Oddly, nobody actually suggested it was "time for a girl to be Bond" or anything like that, but there's lots of responses as if somebody said that.

3. Female James Bond is Black Widow

4. Female James Bond is every other random girl spy

Did I miss anything?

[The Glyphstone]

I think part parody, part pastiche (which is most pastiche, see Order of the Stick).

Aheem! Attention!

Now is time to sum up everything I learned about female James Bond in the thread:


1. Female James Bond is Impossible because
a. Something something men
b. Something something women
c. See also Female James Bond would be awful

2. Female James Bond would be is awful because
a. It would be terribly regressive
b. It would be super aggressively progressive (this would be terrible)

3. Female James Bond needs to happen and will be Gold
a. For reasons other people said are terribly regressive and aesthetically ugly
b. I have the actor to play her
c. I have a favorite actual James Bond actor or potential new guy to play James Bond (yeah this one is random)
d. Oddly, nobody actually suggested it was "time for a girl to be Bond" or anything like that, but there's lots of responses as if somebody said that.

3. Female James Bond is Black Widow

4. Female James Bond is every other random girl spy

Did I miss anything?

Surprisingly, people in a group have different opinions sometimes.


Can I venture that Female James Bond would be awful because Male James Bond is awful? Seriously, he is a terrible, horrible person - essentially a Villain Protagonist before the trope was codified, saved only by his enemies being even worse. Wisecracking promiscuous sociopathic mass murderer isn't a hat that sits well on anyone's head.

[Peelee]

Surprisingly, people in a group have different opinions sometimes.

Well, at least until the Borg helps us out

[Reddish Mage]

Surprisingly, people in a group have different opinions sometimes.


Can I venture that Female James Bond would be awful because Male James Bond is awful? Seriously, he is a terrible, horrible person - essentially a Villain Protagonist before the trope was codified, saved only by his enemies being even worse. Wisecracking promiscuous sociopathic mass murderer isn't a hat that sits well on anyone's head.

Pretty sure you can't. Not interested in discussing James Bond's morality, let's stick to whether he or she is or will be entertaining or what other effect he or she has on the audience.

[Aotrs Commander]

Wisecracking promiscuous sociopathic mass murderer isn't a hat that sits well on anyone's head.

Deadpool would beg to differ...

[The Glyphstone]

Deadpool would beg to differ...

I stand corrected. My apologies, Mr. Pool, don't kill me with a chimichanga.

[Peelee]

Deadpool would beg to differ...

Eh, I'll carry Glyphstone's torch for Deadpool.

[Kitten Champion]

Can I venture that Female James Bond would be awful because Male James Bond is awful? Seriously, he is a terrible, horrible person - essentially a Villain Protagonist before the trope was codified, saved only by his enemies being even worse. Wisecracking promiscuous sociopathic mass murderer isn't a hat that sits well on anyone's head.

That's pretty much my opinion, though I would say designated protagonist - with strong values dissonance between me and his writers - who lives in a reality that bends around him to give him an atta' boy and a martini cocktail.

I mean, he's a man who raped a lesbian only for her to "correct" her sexual orientation and go all dewy-eyed over him. He's a man who thought he could look Japanese just by dying his hair, and apparently the many Japanese people around him didn't disagree with this assertion despite presumably having functioning eyes. He's a man who's simply indifferent to the deaths of pretty much anyone and everyone - innocent or not - the rule of law, and the sovereignty of other countries, yet he's this national icon.

I don't want a female version of him, I want a cat version of him. I accept the chaos and evil in the hearts of all cats.

[deuterio12]

That's pretty much my opinion, though I would say designated protagonist - with strong values dissonance between me and his writers - who lives in a reality that bends around him to give him an atta' boy and a martini cocktail.

I mean, he's a man who raped a lesbian only for her to "correct" her sexual orientation and go all dewy-eyed over him. He's a man who thought he could look Japanese just by dying his hair, and apparently the many Japanese people around him didn't disagree with this assertion despite presumably having functioning eyes. He's a man who's simply indifferent to the deaths of pretty much anyone and everyone - innocent or not - the rule of law, and the sovereignty of other countries, yet he's this national icon.

Precisely, Bond's all "England f*** yeah!". He'll do anything to complete his assignments and protect the crown.

It's also his job, he literally has license to kill.

If Bond had any sort of conscience left besides his hyper loyalty to the queen, then he would've never made it to 00 status.



I don't want a female version of him, I want a cat version of him. I accept the chaos and evil in the hearts of all cats.

What about a female cat Bond?

Bonus points if cat Bond still perfectly blends in with human society and has humans fawning all over.

[Peelee]

It's also his job, he literally has license to kill.

Let me tell ya, the written test for that is a doozy.

Precisely, Bond's all "England f*** yeah!". He'll do anything to complete his assignments and protect the crown.

If Bond had any sort of conscience left besides his hyper loyalty to the queen, then he would've never made it to 00 status.
He quit for a vendetta in License to Kill.

[Kitten Champion]

Precisely, Bond's all "England f*** yeah!". He'll do anything to complete his assignments and protect the crown.

It seems that much of it involves casual misogyny, mysteriously.

Still, the weird thing about a lot of early Bond movies is how he seems rather reticent to do much of anything until he's had a gentlemanly evening of leisure with the villain, like they're all on the same polo league but belong to different clubs or something . When I think "will do anything" I more associate it with Jason Bourne, who was decidedly disinterested in developing a personal rapport with the people he'd covertly murder at the behest of a legally dubious cell of the CIA and did decidedly less ******* around in general.

For Bond, action calls when it's convenient for him and likely well after the disastrous ruination of the woman he happens to be around.



It's also his job, he literally has license to kill.

If Bond had any sort of conscience left besides his hyper loyalty to the queen, then he would've never made it to 00 status.


Which left me quite dumbfounded by the ending of Spectre. Like he's ****ing Netflix Daredevil or something all of a sudden. I'm still baffled by that.



What about a female cat Bond?

As an advocate for feline equality, the role should clearly go to the cat who's the best actor.

https://cdn1us.denofgeek.com/sites/denofgeekus/files/styles/main_wide/public/2019/02/captain-marvel-cat-goose.jpg?itok=adx00vhf

I don't know if purists will accept an American cat, and what sort of money he'd be asking for.

[deuterio12]

It seems that much of it involves casual misogyny, mysteriously.

Still, the weird thing about a lot of early Bond movies is how he seems rather reticent to do much of anything until he's had a gentlemanly evening of leisure with the villain, like they're all on the same polo league but belong to different clubs or something . When I think "will do anything" I more associate it with Jason Bourne, who was decidedly disinterested in developing a personal rapport with the people he'd covertly murder at the behest of a legally dubious cell of the CIA and did decidedly less ******* around in general.

For Bond, action calls when it's convenient for him and likely well after the disastrous ruination of the woman he happens to be around.

As for gentemanly evenings of leisure with the villain, that's how Bond can afford to keep using the same name and face every mission. He develops that reputation as being quite the entertaining gentleman and villains can't resist meeting him too instead of keeping a safe distance. If you don't accept a meeting of leisure with the Bond, then your social status in the world will suffer a pretty nasty hit.

As for the women, that's also part of the disguise and deception. Many others will think Bond's just a womanizer after skirts and will be too busy ruining them to stop the villain in time, but Bond's actually setting up things so that action calls just when he's taken all he wants from said women.



As an advocate for feline equality, the role should clearly go to the cat who's the best actor.

https://cdn1us.denofgeek.com/sites/denofgeekus/files/styles/main_wide/public/2019/02/captain-marvel-cat-goose.jpg?itok=adx00vhf

I don't know if purists will accept an American cat, and what sort of money he'd be asking for.

As long as they can properly purr with english accent.

[Saph]

I'm finding it kind of amusing how people in this thread are talking about how a female Bond could have all the "good" Bond traits (dangerous, lethal, seductive, funny, badass) but are also complaining about the "bad" Bond traits (unempathic, murderous, promiscuous, cold, indifferent).

The whole point of Bond's character is that they're two sides of the same coin. He's a professional spy and assassin who works for an intelligence service. What kind of person do you think is going to be a good fit for that job? Intelligence agencies do not have a reputation for being nice!

I suppose they're hoping for a 'sanitised' version, sort of like Black Widow or Jason Bourne – "I was trained as a super-spy-assassin-ninja but I'm not one any more, which conveniently lets me have all the associated skills but with a conventional heroic morality". I've always thought that the 'sanitised assassin' fantasy is one of the stupidest tropes out there, but I guess it's an easy way out.

[deuterio12]

I'm finding it kind of amusing how people in this thread are talking about how a female Bond could have all the "good" Bond traits (dangerous, lethal, seductive, funny, badass) but are also complaining about the "bad" Bond traits (unempathic, murderous, promiscuous, cold, indifferent).

The whole point of Bond's character is that they're two sides of the same coin. He's a professional spy and assassin who works for an intelligence service. What kind of person do you think is going to be a good fit for that job? Intelligence agencies do not have a reputation for being nice!

I suppose they're hoping for a 'sanitised' version, sort of like Black Widow or Jason Bourne – "I was trained as a super-spy-assassin-ninja but I'm not one any more, which conveniently lets me have all the associated skills but with a conventional heroic morality". I've always thought that the 'sanitised assassin' fantasy is one of the stupidest tropes out there, but I guess it's an easy way out.

MI6: "Bond, we need you to go kill/ruin this person."
Bond: "B-But what if they have family or have been wrongly framed? Is it really ok for me to just blindly trust your orders?"
MI6: "...Next Bond candidate, if you please."
Bond: "Wait what next Bo-" (gets shot)
Next Bond: "So, who do you need me to kill/ruin next?"
MI6: "Just pick up the files from the previous Bond corpse, new Bond."
New Bond: "Always a pleasure."

[Frozen_Feet]

.
Can I venture that Female James Bond would be awful because Male James Bond is awful?

Yes you can.

And that's why I want a Jane Bond who is exactly as awful. :smallamused:

My life won't be complete untill I see aging, alcoholic Jane Bond who makes passes at her younger male colleagues (only to be rejected) , forces herself in the presence of younger men and uses them for sex and drinks before either ditching or killing them, struggles to pass the physical and mental requirements of her actual job, gets made fun of by her younger and smarter female colleagues, has uncomfortable bondage scene with homoerotic undertones while captured by another aging female agent...

... all in a grand quest to please a daddy figure who's been manipulating her to kill the other agent, who he left to die in a failed mission.

You know. Skyfall. With genders inverted.

Can't tell me it wouldn't be glorious. :smalltongue:

[deuterio12]

Somebody fund that!:smallbiggrin:

[Frozen_Feet]

It would be hilarious to see a past Bond actor, such as Sean Connery or Daniel Craig himself, playing the role of M in that situation.

Maybe with Gwyneth Paltrow and Charlize Theron as Jane (Jame) and Sylvia (Silva). Letitia Wright as Q. Just throwing names on the wall, no idea how well these actors would do in such roles. More realistically, Angelina Jolie would be a top pick for either Jane or Sylvia due to having done similar roles before.

[The Jack]

2. Female James Bond would be is awful because
a. It would be terribly regressive
b. It would be super aggressively progressive (this would be terrible)


They're often the same thing.

"and we promote equality by giving a much needed nerf to men and a buff to women"
That often doesn't end in equality, that's just flipping inequality. And good people don't need to be made inferior for the actions of others in their perceived group, that's not justice. The sins of our fathers is nonsense. I'm a white male with good speaking skills and a funny accent, it doesn't make me Hitler. I don't get why some people think sending a positive message to girls has to involve a negative message towards perfectly innocent boys.


So; Can it be done well? Yes.
Will it be done well if we actively think of it as 'james bond but female'? Unlikely. Not with the current people who wanna make films like this.

[Lethologica]

That was the quickest escalation to Godwin I've seen in a while.

[The Glyphstone]

That was the quickest escalation to Godwin I've seen in a while.

4 pages in? Nonsense.

[Lethologica]

4 pages in? Nonsense.
I mean that usually there's some kind of build-up. Not all prior posts in a thread count as build-up.

[Peelee]

I mean that usually there's some kind of build-up.

You should watch some Peep Show.

[The Jack]

Go hard or go home. :smallcool:

[Malifice]

As long as they put her in spandex and arm her with a katana, yeah sure.

That's about the only thing that will get the neckbeards on side.

Sadly.

[Aotrs Commander]

Yes you can.

And that's why I want a Jane Bond who is exactly as awful. :smallamused:

My life won't be complete untill I see aging, alcoholic Jane Bond who makes passes at her younger male colleagues (only to be rejected) , forces herself in the presence of younger men and uses them for sex and drinks before either ditching or killing them, struggles to pass the physical and mental requirements of her actual job, gets made fun of by her younger and smarter female colleagues, has uncomfortable bondage scene with homoerotic undertones while captured by another aging female agent...

... all in a grand quest to please a daddy figure who's been manipulating her to kill the other agent, who he left to die in a failed mission.

You know. Skyfall. With genders inverted.

Can't tell me it wouldn't be glorious. :smalltongue:

But so would taking any film (or show) you care to mention and replacing the entire cast with BRIAN BLESSED. Or Samuel Jackson. (Or possibly, Jennifer Hale, though you might have to go animation with that one; I don't know if she's up for live-action.)

You might get one amusing-because-casting film out of it, but after that, the joke wears a bit thin.

(Okay, replace-cast-with-BRIAN BLESSED might get a little more than that, but..)

[Frozen_Feet]

I fail to see a problem.

Really, I suppose this is just a case where recorded media has spoiled people rotten.

In theater, you know what they call doing the same play over and over, but with different casts? Normal. :smalltongue:

[Aotrs Commander]

I fail to see a problem.

Really, I suppose this is just a case where recorded media has spoiled people rotten.

In theater, you know what they call doing the same play over and over, but with different casts? Normal. :smalltongue:

Plays are a different kettle of fish to television, though. Plays, due to their very constraints of being live in a fixed location, not as dynamic a method of storytelling as other mediums (can be; obviously a high-level production on stage can be way better than a half-arsed one on telly) so in the modern age, they serve a different function. You go to a play to see the story being done live, and thus, basically, the actors and their interpretations of stuff is basically the main draw (or they are doing something which is itself an established Thing (e.g. Shakespeare), wherein Doing the Exact Same Thing With Different People is, like half the point. James Bond is not, let's be fair, Shakespeare, nor is it ever going to be.)



Disney doing a live-action (or, hell, even animated) remake Cinderella gender-swapping the evil stepmother (something that, one panto, I have personally played) is not clever is that's the only thing you're doing with it. No, tell a lie, we also that a bit in the Wizard of Oz on we did, too, with the wicked witch1) is just not worthwhile.

(Hell, the fact that Disney generallt doing live-action adaptations of their own cartoons and mostly falling flat indicates that just recycling stuff doesn't work - plus almost nothing in Hollywood is actually not an adaption or a remake or something else with a different hook, and you want to ENCOURAGE them?)



Plus, I think "this thing was pretty bad, so let's flip it upside-down and be awful the opposite way" is not good approach to take, because now you've (very lazily) made two awful things instead of one better thing AND repeated yourself (and so now I'm not only bored, but potentially offended twice, depending on how bad the things were).



I mean, I'm not a huge Bond fan in the first place, I haven't even seen all of Brosan's films - the most recent spy stuff I watched was Johnny English and Agents of SHIELD - so I likely don't particularly care WHAT spy movie you make unless you make a way better effort than most films have been doing in the past, what fifteen-twenty years, so "we're doing exactly the same as what we did before, but changing the cast" is going to get you absolutely NOWHERE fast...

You (the metaphrocial you) can rave all you like about, say, gender-flipped Lord of the Rings or Pride and Prejudice or whatever, but unless you actually have something interesting to bring to the table other than "this thing has different actors in it" then I REALLY don't care and I'm more likely to be actively annoyed at you trying to score points in your collectively tradionally purile human gender/ethnicity bickering. (I mean, you change your voice cast on an animated show and you've basically lost me, regardless of what said cast were before, even if it's between dub and sub.) Do something actually clever, or like, (speaking to the metaphorical producers, not you Frozen_Feet, here), go home.



So, in summation, less Jane Bonds, more Captain Marvels (the MCU one, I mean, frack there are waay too many Captain Marvels).



Huh, I guess it all annoys me more than I thought.



I tell you what, do something with a decent Lich in it and I MIGHT cut you all some slack, since NO-ONE ever does any representation for ME, do they?



Also, dammit, stop providing me with temptation to Bleakbane Rant and procrastinate on my quest-writing!



1Wherein the original charcter for one of the two evil witches (it was an adaption of an adaption, we'd been short of people to do the script that year, so the director bought on online we tweaked) was intended to be a female role, and in which we retained elements (which I Wrote Myself), thus we could have the joke that "Sweaty Betty (the character's original name), we used to call him, but he's name is [Bleakbane's character), no, [Bleakbane's character] is not his real name, what's his real name then, Elizibeth, why, our parents really wanted a girl ahahaha." (Which is as close as you will get to Bleakbane Doing Drag/Panto-dame.) So, if you can't even be arsed to make more of an effort than I literally did with it (at least in that one case, it was worth a joke (admittedly of merely panto-level)) as an amateur doing a church pantomine, then the metaphorial you as a profession script-person ought to have higher standards.

...

Actually, I'm pretty sure in that Cinderella, the Baron Hard-up (traditionally a bloke) was gender-swapped too (most of the cast are female) and I somewhere in there squeezing in at least a "non-traditional gender roles" crack somewhere there as well...

[halfeye]

But so would taking any film (or show) you care to mention and replacing the entire cast with James Robertson Justice. Or Samuel Jackson. (Or possibly, Jennifer Hale, though you might have to go animation with that one; I don't know if she's up for live-action.)

You might get one amusing-because-casting film out of it, but after that, the joke wears a bit thin.

(Okay, replace-cast-with- James Robertson Justice might get a little more than that, but..)

Fixed that for you. :smallbiggrin: :smalltongue:

[Misery Esquire]

But so would taking any film (or show) you care to mention and replacing the entire cast with BRIAN BLESSED. Or Samuel Jackson. (Or possibly, Jennifer Hale, though you might have to go animation with that one; I don't know if she's up for live-action.)

You might get one amusing-because-casting film out of it, but after that, the joke wears a bit thin.

(Okay, replace-cast-with-BRIAN BLESSED might get a little more than that, but..)

007 in... The MOTHER******.

Starring BRIAN BLESSED versus Samuel Jackson and The Rock. And a very confused Bond girl; the first to accessorize with earplugs.

We're still not sure if "CLIMB THAT MOUNTAIN, NANCY" was innuendo or not. They were in the Alps, but the scene also dropped the curtain.

[2D8HP]

007 in... The MOTHER******.

Starring BRIAN BLESSED versus Samuel Jackson and The Rock. And a very confused Bond girl; the first to accessorize with earplugs.

We're still not sure if "CLIMB THAT MOUNTAIN, NANCY" was innuendo or not. They were in the Alps, but the scene also dropped the curtain.


When it comes to broadcast television will it be titled "The Monkeyfighters" or "The Monday-to-Fridays"?

Well whichever, that movie sounds well worthwhile!

[Peelee]

When it comes to broadcast television will it be titled "The Monkeyfighters" or "The Monday-to-Fridays"?

Well whichever, that movie sounds well worthwhile!

You should ask the stranger they found in the Alps.

[2D8HP]

You should ask the stranger they found in the Alps.


"Yippee Ki Yay Mr Falcon (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Mn-P3lnr76s)!"

[Rogar Demonblud]

007 in... The MOTHER******.

Starring BRIAN BLESSED versus Samuel Jackson and The Rock. And a very confused Bond girl; the first to accessorize with earplugs.

Brian Blessed doesn't always do the loud thing. He did a children's series about history where he played a soft-spoken archaeologist that I wish I could remember the name of because it was awesome.

[Lemmy]

What's the point? A gender-flipped cheap knock-off is still a cheap knock-off... If you're going to make a cheap knock-off product, then just scratch that idea and give us the original instead!

If all the franchise has to offer is a female protagonist, it'll fail as hard as Ocean's 8 and the last Ghost Busters... It's pretty clear at this point that people demanding this kind of thing don't actually bother supporting it, and those who actually care about the franchise will justifiably ignore it... But, hey! Once it fails, the producers can at least use the cheap "everyone is sexist!" excuse and attack the audience.

Unsurprisingly, if the focus is on the character's ethnicity, gender or sexual orientation, rather than the on the actual character, chances are your movie/game/series/whatever will suck... Or at very least, your character ends up boring and/or grating... *cough* Captain Marvel *cough*

[Lethologica]

*cough* Captain Marvel *cough*
Captain Marvel, a highly successful movie whose protagonist is not a cheap knock-off of anything and which offers much besides the gender of its protagonist, doesn't fit your complaint. I can only conclude that none of those points are what actually bother you. I don't know what it is that bothers you, but it would help if you started there, instead of establishing an argument only to immediately move out of scope.

[Lemmy]

Captain Marvel, a highly successful movie whose protagonist is not a cheap knock-off of anything and which offers much besides the gender of its protagonist, doesn't fit your complaint. I can only conclude that none of those points are what actually bother you. I don't know what it is that bothers you, but it would help if you started there, instead of establishing an argument only to immediately move out of scope.You can conclude whatever you want. You have the right to be wrong.

[2D8HP]

...If you're going to make a cheap knock-off product, then just scratch that idea and give us the original instead!...


While spy films went back at least to the 1930's (Alfred Hitchcock directed several), after Dr. No, From Russia With Love, and especially Goldfinger, there was an explosion in films and television shows on the spy 'band-wagon', and some (Funeral in Berlin, The Ipcress File, The Spy Who Came in From the Cold) were better than the original Bond movies.

(Full disclosure: I saw Helen Mirren in The Debt, which is why I think a series of spy films with her as the lead would be awesome, but I just looked up her age and realize that they better be made quick!, and I never saw Atomic Blonde, but what do I know? I thought Casino Royale was okay, but the other recent Bond [and Bourne] movies I thought were forgettable, and prefered Tinker, Tailor, Soldier, Spy).

[Lethologica]

You can conclude whatever you want. You have the right to be wrong.
1. Your complaints are about cheap knockoff protagonists in movies that don't offer anything besides the racial/gender/sexual identity of the protagonist and ultimately blame their failure on bigotry.
2. Captain Marvel is relevant to your complaints.

You can't have both. Pick one.

[halfeye]

There was I think a song about the wild west "When men were men, and women weren't complaining".

We've had two world wars since then, where heros died by the million, mainly without issue. Now the sons are not so heroic, because their fathers weren't heroic, which is how they survived the wars. Obviously some of the heros survived, but heroism isn't a survival trait in modern warfare, it probably never was, but in the old days armies were tiny and most men weren't asked to fight (I blame Napoleon, or someone about that time for the change).

I'm not saying there's an easy answer to what should we do next ("no WW3" excepted), but the answer to how did we get here is fairly simple.

[Lemmy]

While spy films went back at least to the 1930's (Alfred Hitchcock directed several), after Dr. No, From Russia With Love, and especially Goldfinger, there was an explosion in films and television shows on the spy 'band-wagon', and some (Funeral in Berlin, The Ipcress File, The Spy Who Came in From the Cold) were better than the original Bond movies.

(Full disclosure: I saw Helen Mirren in The Debt, which is why I think a series of spy films with her as the lead would be awesome, but I just looked up her age and realize that they better be made quick!, and I never saw Atomic Blonde, but what do I know? I thought Casino Royale was okay, but the other recent Bond [and Bourne] movies I thought were forgettable, and prefered Tinker, Tailor, Soldier, Spy).
Well... I don't qualify every super-spy movie as a James Bond expy... They are just movies with the same premise/genre. I'm all in favor of having a spy movie whose main protagonist and/or main antagonist is a badass female super-spy (BW should've gotten a movie years ago... But at least she's quite important and badass in every MCU movie she's in).

James Bond isn't just a super-competent spy... He was a very distinct personality, which is what makes him stand out, at least IMHO. The most forgettable 007 movies are precisely the ones that downplay his more unique characteristics and push him closer to the tired archetype of the super-stoic flawless protagonist that seemingly doesn't care about the world around him... One of the reasons Man of Steel was so boring (aside from the actions scenes) was exactly because the character don't seem to care about anything going around them... A protagonist with super-spy gadgets instead of solar-based superpowers would be just as dull...

To me, "female expy of James Bond" isn't just a super-competent female super-spy (like I said, BW never felt like a JB-clone), but one that shares not only the premise and genre with 007, but also his more iconic characteristics, such as his personality and behavior.

[Lemmy]

1. Your complaints are about cheap knockoff protagonists in movies that don't offer anything besides the racial/gender/sexual identity of the protagonist and ultimately blame their failure on bigotry.
2. Captain Marvel is relevant to your complaints.

You can't have both. Pick one.
Well... I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. If you think whatever you concluded about my motivations and opinions are more accurate than what I say they are, you can enjoy that thought without my input.

[2D8HP]

...To me, "female expy of James Bond" isn't just a super-competent female super-spy (like I said, BW never felt like a JB-clone), but one that shares not only the premise and genre with 007, but also his more iconic characteristics, such as his personality and behavior.


When you put it like that, oh boy!

Yeah, I don't think that movie audiences would have problems with the promiscuity, and psychopathy of the character if played by a woman, but a full "lady-Bond" would presumably share the same product placement brand name affectations that were part of the character even in the earliest novels (Gordon’s Gin, Bentley Motorcars, and Moreland Cigarettes, et cetera), and for some reason I have doubts about how well that aspect of the character would fly.

The more I think about it it would work best in a late 1940's to early 1960's cold war setting.

[Chromascope3D]

There was I think a song about the wild west "When men were men, and women weren't complaining".

We've had two world wars since then, where heros died by the million, mainly without issue. Now the sons are not so heroic, because their fathers weren't heroic, which is how they survived the wars. Obviously some of the heros survived, but heroism isn't a survival trait in modern warfare, it probably never was, but in the old days armies were tiny and most men weren't asked to fight (I blame Napoleon, or someone about that time for the change).

I'm not saying there's an easy answer to what should we do next ("no WW3" excepted), but the answer to how did we get here is fairly simple.

Um, hi, I have questions:

Is your comment about masculinity or heroism? If it's about the former, then why does heroism relate to it?
If your definition of heroism is synonymous with masculinity, does that mean that feminine people can't be heroic?
Is heroism genetic or learned? If it's not genetic, then why does it matter whether kids learn it from their parents specifically? Can children not have role models that aren't their parents?
What makes someone a hero in the first place? Does it involve fighting and dying in conflict, or simply risking yourself for the sake of another? If it's the former, then what about people who risk their lives fighting fires, for example? And if it's the latter, why would all of the heroes have died in wars, if you don't need to be a soldier to be a hero? And again, what does that have to do with masculinity?
Combining questions 3 and 4, WWII ended over seven decades, or three to four generations, ago. Has European/American society not been able to produce more heroes since then? What about countries that weren't significantly involved in either of those wars?
How does this relate to the topic at hand? All of the James Bond novels were written after WWII, so, where does he figure if most of the men post WWII aren't heroic? Or are fictional characters exempt from this theory? If they are, then why does it matter whether Bond is a woman or not?

I dunno, I think you may wanna workshop that theory a bit more, because it sure seems a bit more complicated than 'fairly simple.'

[2D8HP]

...All of the James Bond novels were written after WWII, so, where does he figure if most of the men post WWII aren't heroic?...


I'm not going to touch the post that you responded to with a ten foot pole to check for traps, but an interesting book called:

The Man Who Saved Britain: A Personal Journey into the Disturbing World of James Bond by Simon Winder (https://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/10/books/chapters/1210-1st-wind.html)

puts the Bond books and films in a specific post war/post imperial cultural context, as the character in the books (like the author of them) was an adult during the second world war (reflected in such things as a decided preference for driving pre-war Bentley's, which we last see on film in From Russia With Love, with a brief mention in Goldfinger).

Bond was a man out of time even in the '60's (hence the "That's like listening to the Beatles without earmuffs" quip).

[halfeye]

Um, hi, I have questions:

Is your comment about masculinity or heroism? If it's about the former, then why does heroism relate to it?
If your definition of heroism is synonymous with masculinity, does that mean that feminine people can't be heroic?
Is heroism genetic or learned? If it's not genetic, then why does it matter whether kids learn it from their parents specifically? Can children not have role models that aren't their parents?
What makes someone a hero in the first place? Does it involve fighting and dying in conflict, or simply risking yourself for the sake of another? If it's the former, then what about people who risk their lives fighting fires, for example? And if it's the latter, why would all of the heroes have died in wars, if you don't need to be a soldier to be a hero? And again, what does that have to do with masculinity?
Combining questions 3 and 4, WWII ended over seven decades, or three to four generations, ago. Has European/American society not been able to produce more heroes since then? What about countries that weren't significantly involved in either of those wars?
How does this relate to the topic at hand? All of the James Bond novels were written after WWII, so, where does he figure if most of the men post WWII aren't heroic? Or are fictional characters exempt from this theory? If they are, then why does it matter whether Bond is a woman or not?

I dunno, I think you may wanna workshop that theory a bit more, because it sure seems a bit more complicated than 'fairly simple.'

1/ I am suggesting that the attitudes of males may have changed since the wars in the countries that took part in them. It relates to males more than females because most of the fighters were males. There were exceptions, but not a statistically significant number.

2/ I didn't say that. I am saying being a hero is generally not clever, for anybody. I suppose I am saying if your life isn't at risk, what you're doing isn't heroic, however that doesn't mean it isn't good.

3/ That doesn't much matter, I tend to think of it as genetic, but if it's learned the potential teachers dying would eliminate it just fine. A school for heros where a government used non-heroic teachers to train pupils to go off to die would be horrific I think.

4/ A lot of people died in the wars, populations are big things, and you need a lot of casualties/not casualties to make a difference.

5/ Luckily, we haven't needed to on a large scale. America is bigger than Britain, it's losses were probably less in percentage terms, so the differences are probably less pronounced.

6/ People were talking about the relationships between men and women, it seemed to me a change in the attitudes of the population (such as I have suggested probably happened) was relevant.

[Lethologica]

Well... I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. If you think whatever you concluded about my motivations and opinions are more accurate than what I say they are, you can enjoy that thought without my input.
I said 'pick one', not 'pick #2'. You could always just say that Captain Marvel isn't actually relevant, since it doesn't accord with what you say your motivations and opinions are.

[Lemmy]

I said 'pick one', not 'pick #2'. You could always just say that Captain Marvel isn't actually relevant, since it doesn't accord with what you say your motivations and opinions are.I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on that point as well...

[137beth]

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on that point as well...

I think Lethologica's point (although I may have mistunderstood) is that Captain Marvel is an overwhelming success at the box office (it's too early to know whether it will be a success on home video as well). That isn't really something you can "disagree" with, since it isn't an opinion. It's a fact about how much money it made.

You claimed that movies with certain characteristics which you dislike inevitably fail. You then mentioned Captain Marvel, which didn't fail. So, either Captain Marvel doesn't have the qualities you were complaining about (and was therefore irrelevant to your argument), or your entire argument was wrong, and Captain Marvel is a counterexample showing you were wrong.

[Lemmy]

I think Lethologica's point (although I may have mistunderstood) is that Captain Marvel is an overwhelming success at the box office (it's too early to know whether it will be a success on home video as well). That isn't really something you can "disagree" with, since it isn't an opinion. It's a fact about how much money it made.

You claimed that movies with certain characteristics which you dislike inevitably fail. You then mentioned Captain Marvel, which didn't fail. So, either Captain Marvel doesn't have the qualities you were complaining about (and was therefore irrelevant to your argument), or your entire argument was wrong, and Captain Marvel is a counterexample showing you were wrong.
Put that way, I suppose that's right... CM probably will make a lot of money (although probably not as much as Disney expected), so I now will clarify that when I mentioned CM, I wasn't referring to that part of my post.

I do disagree with Lethologica on the more subjective points, though. . .. Like the movie's quality and what it has to offer... And I'll add that being a financial success has never been synonym to being a good movie... The world's highest grossing movie of all time (at least until Endgame surpasses it) is Avatar, which is mediocre at best... And I'm sure each and every one of us here can name at least 5 weak movies that were still successful... As well as at least 5 great movies that unfortunately didn't get the success it deserves.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Captain Marvel is already past the one billion mark ($1.12 billion, to be precise) and it hasn't finished its theatrical run. It's the biggest female-led movie ever, the second biggest movie of the year and probably isn't going to see real competition for that place until Episode IX this December. The movie has completely blown away every prediction for profits. Saying it will probably make some money approaches willful blindness at his point.

[Lemmy]

Saying it will probably make some money approaches willful blindness at his point.
Note that I did say "probably will make a lot of money".

[Rogar Demonblud]

They're past that point too. Given their projections for worldwide box was reportedly about 700 mil, they are in the $#!+ ton of money part of the field.

[Peelee]

Note that I did say "probably will make a lot of money".

How much do you think Disney expected? Corollary, do you think Disney execs are sitting around kicking dirt and thinking, "aw shucks" about CM?

[137beth]

Captain Marvel is already past the one billion mark ($1.12 billion, to be precise) and it hasn't finished its theatrical run. It's the biggest female-led movie ever, the second biggest movie of the year and probably isn't going to see real competition for that place until Episode IX this December. The movie has completely blown away every prediction for profits. Saying it will probably make some money approaches willful blindness at his point.
(Emphasis mine)
Is it the biggest female-lead movie ever? I thought that was Star Wars: The Force Awakens.

[deuterio12]

Note that I did say "probably will make a lot of money".

And then (although probably not as much as Disney expected).

Their expectations were 700 millions yet the movie has reached 1 billion bucks and is still going. There's no "agree to disagree" here, you literally tried to claim that 1 billion is somehow lower than 700 million which is plain wrong no matter how you loook at it.

[Rodin]

The immediate next objection is "cheap knock-off". Of what, exactly? Superman? Because I'm sure Marvel is sitting around cursing that they aren't bringing in Superman money. I'm sure they retroactively went back and created the character of Ms. Marvel in 1977 just so that they can have a gender-flipped Superman in 2019 for "social commentary". The only recent thing about Captain Marvel is Carol Danvers, who took on the role in 2012 becoming the third woman to bear the name.

And I get the thrust of the complaint, I really do. I don't see particular merit in doing a female Bond in anything other than a pastiche (I'd love to see a Cate Archer movie, for example), because they can't even get the existing Bond right. When the best 2 Bond movies from the past decade are the Kingsmen movies, you know something has gone horribly wrong. I'm all for female superspy movies (bring on Black Widow), but explicitly trying to do a Bond film would be a mistake.

The point is though, none of that applies to Captain Marvel. At all. She's not a cheap knock-off, she's not a gender-flipped version of an existing character, and her movie wasn't even remotely unsuccessful. I disagree with the take on her personality as well, but that's purely personal perception and so can't really be argued with.

[Aotrs Commander]

I thought Captain Marvel was one of the best MCU films they've ever done, and Carol herself - really surprisingly given how AWFUL that first trailer was - had me literally on her first line of dialogue and by the end, has become Best Avenger.

BW movie? Great, I'm going to be there.



But I need to see a female James Bond expylike I need to see a male Glitter Force.

In that it MIGHT be entertaining for a few minutes before then joke wears off. Maybe more in the latter case, because over a quarter-century of panto has me wired to find that sort of thing funny.

...

Actually, I take that back, I WOULD want to see them do a male Glitter Force if, instead of just swapping the genders of the characters, they made the new Glitter Force have Might Guy and Alex Louise Armstrong in it.

BUT, I also note, before i sabotage my point, that would not be the same thing.

...

Come to that, "James Bond film but with Jubilee/Pinkie Pie/Fluttershy... Actually any of the main cast from MLP" would also work; but again, that's subtly different; you're not JUST flipping the genders.

(In the same way as "James Bond film but it's the guy from the Barcleycard adverts" was and I very thoroughly enjoyed those.)



That's a good point to make though - there's always a lot of debate about females replacing males in stuff that has been traiditionally considered male-orientated, but very rarely is anyone even seeming to consider the inverse (e.g. uhhh... Mark Poppins?)

[Peelee]

The immediate next objection is "cheap knock-off". Of what, exactly? Superman? Because I'm sure Marvel is sitting around cursing that they aren't bringing in Superman money. I'm sure they retroactively went back and created the character of Ms. Marvel in 1977 just so that they can have a gender-flipped Superman in 2019 for "social commentary".

Oh don't be silly. They created Captain Marvel in response to DC creating Captain Marvel, then teamed up with DC so both Captain Marvel movies would be released in theaters at the same time. :smalltongue:

[Florian]

I don´t think that a female "James Bond" can work. Female spy movie? Female action hero spy movie? All that, but not as female James Bond.

I like the whole franchise, but especially the Craig movies, for a number of reasons, the main one of them being nostalgia. Not nostalgia for the franchise as a whole, but rather for a fading world order / social order, that is heavily enacted in the franchise.

Kingsmen put that to a point by exactly focusing on the same thing: The motifs of empire, aristocracy, chivalry and gentlemenship, courtesy even amongst enemies, especially when running in the same social circles as mostly expressed by private clubs and so on. The comparison between the suit and plate armor brought it to the point.

James Bond is an anachronism and symbol for a fading time, that makes it fun to watch. Cut out those elements and it wouldn't be the Bond experience. And honestly, I don't think that it can be done with a female lead or reversals.

[Fyraltari]

Oh don't be silly. They created Captain Marvel in response to DC creating Captain Marvel, then teamed up with DC so both Captain Marvel movies would be released in theaters at the same time. :smalltongue:

The running joke about the name is my second-favorite bit of Shazam!.

[Peelee]

The running joke about the name is my second-favorite bit of Shazam!.

I belive you mean Captain Sparklefingers

[Lemmy]

You know what? I'll simply bow out to avoid further derailing the thread... This discussion is simply not worth the effort...

[Rynjin]

That's a good point to make though - there's always a lot of debate about females replacing males in stuff that has been traiditionally considered male-orientated, but very rarely is anyone even seeming to consider the inverse (e.g. uhhh... Mark Poppins?)


That would never work, since everyone would just claim a man in the role was a pedophile.

[Rogar Demonblud]

(Emphasis mine)
Is it the biggest female-lead movie ever? I thought that was Star Wars: The Force Awakens.

No, Star Wars movies are ensemble pics. If TFA has a lead, it would be BB-8 by the usual metrics.

[Traab]

That would never work, since everyone would just claim a man in the role was a pedophile.

Oh god, I can see it now,

Dad: "So you are saying that you were laughing so hard you were floating on the ceiling with a bunch of guys, none of whom aside from Mr Poppins I know? Did this happen before or after he gave you a spoonful of oddly colored "medicine" I dont recall giving him permission to dose you with? Ok, hold on a sec." /picks up phone "Police? Yeah, im pretty sure my kids were drugged by a group of guys."

[Aotrs Commander]

So, super-duper double-standards then?

One of my mates works in child-care, nice to know that the moment you put a male lead in that sort of role it's pedophila.

[Rynjin]

So, super-duper double-standards then?

One of my mates works in child-care, nice to know that the moment you put a male lead in that sort of role is pedophila.

It's not right, but it's the general public perception, at least here in the US. Generally an adult male interacting with kids who aren't his own is considered suspect.

[Rodin]

It's not right, but it's the general public perception, at least here in the US. Generally an adult male interacting with kids who aren't his own is considered suspect.

I wonder how Mrs. Doubtfire would play to a modern audience.

[Kitten Champion]

I wonder how Mrs. Doubtfire would play to a modern audience.

They were his kids there, though.

I mean, if Robin Williams did that with some random single-mother and her children it would be questionable regardless when the movie was made. That would mostly sound like a set up for a horror-suspense movie or even an 80's slasher flick.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Or a comedy in the vein of the Pacifier or Big Momma's House, depending on if it's a discreet protection detail or undercover stakeout.

[Aotrs Commander]

Then ladies and gentlemen, I think there is a MUCH more serious problem to hand that's always getting glossed over, don't we?



Far worse than I had even suspected, actually.

Once again, I find paraphrasing the Doctor: humans never cease finding new ways to make me sick.

And sadly, I thnik that is about as far as that line of thinking can be taken on these forums.

But rest assured, whe the day of Bleakbane arrives, I will be adding that to the long, long, LONG list of things I will have to fix.

[Darth Tom]

I'm currently writing a novel in which a major character started out as this: a female spy in a fantastical WW1-era setting, whose career was in the "glamour and explosives" mould. She didn't wind up staying a Bond expy, instead developing into more of a real-life HUMINT agent.

It occurs to me that there are two strain to the Bond tropes: on the one hand, there is the surface-level stuff including fast cars, sex for the sake of it or as a way of getting close to the target, evil guys who want to kill the hero in a horrible way, etc; but on the other hand there is the idea that all of the above is cool and desirable. I don't know how central that aspect is to the Bond character, but I think that's the problematic element.

The story I am endeavouring to tell with this character is the brutal reality of espionage. Here, a patriotic, open-minded girl who was very open to experiences was brought into a system where she would have to infiltrate the elite society of an enemy nation, getting close enough to key leaders to gain access to their information. By the time we meet her, she has been chewed up and spat out by this system. Having been lucky to survive her experiences, she is now trying to prove to herself that the behaviours she was trained in are actually what she wanted all along.

[Rynjin]

They were his kids there, though.

I mean, if Robin Williams did that with some random single-mother and her children it would be questionable regardless when the movie was made. That would mostly sound like a set up for a horror-suspense movie or even an 80's slasher flick.

Relevant:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Ckv_Dz-Sio

[Kitten Champion]

I should note that doing a Mark Poppins wouldn't be an issue within the context of a movie. It's really quite easy to make a male childcare worker sympathetic if you position them as such through simple writing and direction decisions.

Much like how single fathers caring for children was once treated as a kind of kooky situation that you'd find in 90's sitcoms like Full House and Blossom, or having a main cast member being gay in general was something of a big deal deal... by today's standards its pretty milquetoast. A male nanny, stay-at-home dad, or something like a nurse might be deemed by Hollywood to be outside the norm enough to require a line or two to diffuse the sense of oddness but not outright treat it as some kind of deviancy. At least, not any stranger or more problematic than elementary school teachers, Scout leaders, or youth league sport coaches.

Among sane people of course, I don't question the unfathomable darkness that lies in the heart of the Internet.

[Scarlet Knight]

...
It occurs to me that there are two strain to the Bond tropes: on the one hand, there is the surface-level stuff including fast cars, sex for the sake of it or as a way of getting close to the target, evil guys who want to kill the hero in a horrible way, etc; but on the other hand there is the idea that all of the above is cool and desirable. I don't know how central that aspect is to the Bond character, but I think that's the problematic element.

One of the best scenes in all Bond films is in "Skyfall" when Bond reveals the old Aston Martin DB5. That car was Bond: sleek, powerful, elegant, sexy, with enough tricks under it's hood to tangle with a modern attack helicopter.

@v I completely forgot Diana Rigg was in the Bond films! :smallredface:

[2D8HP]

Emma Peel
Emma Peel


A thought, the actress who played:

https://loiremagblog.files.wordpress.com/2016/03/emma-peel.jpg?w=970

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcT3HjyQgGKxPPpKoz240zi4zOH7fAef2-wqaSfzeQ23oqWiC97m

https://cbsnews2.cbsistatic.com/hub/i/r/2018/05/17/5d0f5beb-8c06-4da1-b3ce-693c6cacf889/thumbnail/620x841/c5c2bc16268f53025ebd8e75a491d842/diana-rigg-emma-peel-the-avengers-photofest-244.jpg
Also played Missus Bond in

https://screenmusings.org/movie/blu-ray/On-Her-Majestys-Secret-Service/thumbnails/On-Her-Majestys-Secret-Service-1150.jpg
https://i2.wp.com/clothesonfilm.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/OHMSS_Diana-Rigg-George-Lazenby-wedding-car_publicity-image_shoot-1.jpg?fit=800%2C507&ssl=1
so there already has been a Missus Bond, and she was AMAZING!


One of the best scenes in all Bond films is in "Skyfall" when Bond reveals the old Aston Martin DB5. That car was Bond...


Which reminds me:


https://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/avengers_1.jpg

[Drascin]

That's a good point to make though - there's always a lot of debate about females replacing males in stuff that has been traiditionally considered male-orientated, but very rarely is anyone even seeming to consider the inverse (e.g. uhhh... Mark Poppins?)


That would never work, since everyone would just claim a man in the role was a pedophile.

It's more that "man gets put in the place woman was" is considered less interesting because Man Protagonist is considered "the obvious default".

You know, because men make up the majority of protagonist roles to such a degree we are talking about "female led movies" like it was a particular genre.

[Spore]

Without reading much if any comments, it would probably go like No one lives forever which had two games with a cool and sexy female spy set in the 60s. Kate wasn't sexualized however but commercially the game was horrible.

[Rogar Demonblud]

It's more that "man gets put in the place woman was" is considered less interesting because Man Protagonist is considered "the obvious default".

Somebody(ies) needs to re-watch Mr. Mom, then.