An argument for uncapped negative attributes.

[SangoProduction]

So, as we all know, bringing a creature to 0 in an attribute (Str, Con, etc), effectively kills it...as in it has no way to fight back.
This effectively adds another 6 HP bars, which are only rarely interacted with. And when they are, they are often done so for the following reasons;
1) The character is focused on that specific attribute damage.
2) The target is a dragon or animal, and targetting the stat is easier than chunking its health away.
3) It's just a debuff, without any intent to kil.

The first reason is problematic because often only that character is targetting that attribute. So, either he kills it, and it was like no one else even contributed, or someone else kills it with HP damage, and their work was pointless.
The second one is bad for the fact that it can trivialize fights, and again, everyone else's work is pointless. This can be good if you're running a highly strategic game where such planning ahead is how you're supposed to win.

The third one, however, is what I prefer to see. This is because it stops functioning as a health bar, and so you are only doing attribute damage for the sake of reducing the target's ability to use that attribute (or to do scaling damage, in the case of Con damage).
Attribute damage under this reason is just battlefield control, which while potentially devastating (like ray of stupidity on the wizard), will not end a fight on its own...unless the spell casters can no longer cast because of it.

This means that, like other battlefield control, you are just making your team better by comparison to the enemy, not just making your team completely obsolete. (Save or loses not withstanding.) And therein, you are working with the team, and ruining no one's fun.

This brings me to my suggestion: Don't give any special weight to 0 or negative value attributes. They just take an increasingly large penalty as they fall further in to the negatives. (Of course, at Str 0, and below, it has no carry capacity, so it can't use manufactured weapons, and would probably be overencumbered by armor. And Int of less than 3 is nonsentient and can't understand language, but otherwise, is quite minor.)

[Necroticplague]

The problem with this is that if you implement such a system, you create even larger incentives for dumping some stats in favor of others. As it is presently, even if you never use a stat, you can't just completely dump it because you can be taken out or killed by stat damage. Under the system you suggest, however, such things are tantamount to turning all of them into irrelevant debuffs.

A Ray of Stupidity goes from, in the fighter's perspective, from being something to watch out for and a reason to have INT be higher than 3, to '-3 to a bunch of things you can't do' (literally, as most of those are trained only) at absolute worst.

Charisma and intelligence suffer the most from this,due to not offering much outside of their skill boosts. Contrast this with the other stats, which all have some passive benefit to keeping them above 0 for everyone (saves, AC, carrying capacity).

[SangoProduction]

The problem with this is that if you implement such a system, you create even larger incentives for dumping some stats in favor of others. As it is presently, even if you never use a stat, you can't just completely dump it because you can be taken out or killed by stat damage. Under the system you suggest, however, such things are tantamount to turning all of them into irrelevant debuffs.

A Ray of Stupidity goes from, in the fighter's perspective, from being something to watch out for and a reason to have INT be higher than 3, to '-3 to a bunch of things you can't do' (literally, as most of those are trained only) at absolute worst.

Charisma and intelligence suffer the most from this,due to not offering much outside of their skill boosts. Contrast this with the other stats, which all have some passive benefit to keeping them above 0 for everyone (saves, AC, carrying capacity).

That is quite a notable flaw in the attribute system as it exists, where some of them just don't have a use to characters.
But, in honesty, how much do people actually think about attribute damage when they are dumping stats? If someone's dumping int that low, it's often with the intention of going "ha, the dumb barbarian is a funny archetype I like to play, and it's made clear by the chosen stats."
Charisma is either dumped, and they don't let their character roll diplomacy, or it's not, because reasons. I doubt people are thinking about their vulnerability to Ego Whip.

What I'm saying is, either they were going to dump it anyway, in which case, this change doesn't do anything to change it, or that they had another reason (probably rp reasons) to not do so, in which case this also doesn't affect their decision.

[Kayblis]

I agree with Necroticplague, and add that you create a situation in which you'd have to actually stop giving debuffs because stats mean something to the world other than just bonuses.

Strength defines your carrying capacity. At 0 STR, you already can't carry anything(including that sword you were swinging and any armor you were wearing), so you're a sitting duck no matter what. Another -2 to hit/damage doesn't change that.

Dexterity adds to your AC. You're telling me that someone with negative AC, as in, incapable of moving, is easier to hit than an actual immobile object(DEX 0)? And that it gets even easier to hit if you reduce it more? Does negative DEX make you throw yourself face first on swords or something?

Constitution damage will make it possible to have a creature with negative max HP. Enough said.

From all stats, Charisma is already a dump stat for 80% of the characters. You're taking maybe the only reason to not have 1 Charisma all the time for these people. And Intelligence's reason for not being a dump stat is skill points, which are not affected by INT damage, so all INT damage is useless unless you're targeting a Wizard.

The idea has a nice basis, but execution is the problem. You could say certain kinds of skills don't cause a knockout from attribute damage(making them penalties instead, and having said penalties stack). In its base form, the "fix" breaks much more than it fixes.

[Necroticplague]

But, in honesty, how much do people actually think about attribute damage when they are dumping stats?
Beats me, because I'm not telepathic yet. I know I certainly have made characters who would be basically strictly improved if I dumped INT and CHA harder, but I didn't because I worry about stat damage.


What I'm saying is, either they were going to dump it anyway, in which case, this change doesn't do anything to change it, There's a difference between 'dump: I won't put any effort into raising this' and 'dump: I actively look for ways to trade this useless resource into a useful resource'. I find that while the former is currently done, the latter is avoided because of stat damage.


What I'm saying is, either they were going to dump it anyway, in which case, this change doesn't do anything to change it, or that they had another reason (probably rp reasons) to not do so, in which case this also doesn't affect their decision.

If the change isn't big enough to affect anyone's decision-making, it's not big enough to bother making. If the change is major enough to bother implementing, than it will impact people's decision-making.