How to Beat 'Detect Evil & Good'?

[Cheesegear]

So there are a couple of spells which are easy to get around. Locate Object, for example. Welp, you've never seen the Object, and you've definitely never been within 30ft of it. Easy.

But there's one specific 'Negate Plot' spell that I don't know how to navigate. Detect Evil and Good. Unlike other 'Detect' spells, it doesn't just tell you that there is a non-Humanoid within 30ft, it also straight up tells you where.

The players walk into a crowded party. "I cast Detect Evil and Good. Tell me where and who the Demon is."

The only one I can find is a Doppelganger, which is a Monstrosity, and thus not detectable by a Level 1 spell.
Part of me wants to do a thing with a Construct, but I'm not sure how to make that work.

I mean, as fun as having a Readied Action to bring up a lead sheet in front of you every time is, it's far from organic storytelling.

[Xihirli]

Tell your players you want a lower magic game. Give your demons humanoid minions who can go to those crowded parties for them. Have two or three unrelated fiend plots going on and Detect Evil and good gives them a choice of following a Devil, Demon, and Yugoloth all of whom have different agendas.

[Trustypeaches]

Nystul's Magic Aura (https://dnd5e.fandom.com/wiki/Nystul%27s_Magic_Aura) allows any competent spellcaster to change how one appears to spells and magical effects that detect creature types.

[LudicSavant]

So there are a couple of spells which are easy to get around. Locate Object, for example. Welp, you've never seen the Object, and you've definitely never been within 30ft of it. Easy.

But there's one specific 'Negate Plot' spell that I don't know how to navigate. Detect Evil and Good. Unlike other 'Detect' spells, it doesn't just tell you that there is a non-Humanoid within 30ft, it also straight up tells you where.

The players walk into a crowded party. "I cast Detect Evil and Good. Tell me where and who the Demon is."

The only one I can find is a Doppelganger, which is a Monstrosity, and thus not detectable by a Level 1 spell.
Part of me wants to do a thing with a Construct, but I'm not sure how to make that work.

I mean, as fun as having a Readied Action to bring up a lead sheet in front of you every time is, it's far from organic storytelling.

This is what Nystul's Magic Aura is for.

[follacchioso]

The spell has a range of 30 feet, which is not much. If it is within 30 feet, they can probably see the creature any way.

You could take advantage of this range to surprise the players. Make a bunch of demons stay outside of the range. When the players feel safe that there are apparently no enemies around, make them roll initiative.

If you want to be strict, the spell only tells you if there is an aberration/celestial/fiend and so on. It doesn't tell which of these creator types it is.

It doesn't even tell you if a given NPC is a fiend/celestial/etc. It just tells you where such creatures are. If there is an invisible demon right next to the NPC, detect evil may not distinguish that.

[jh12]

The players walk into a crowded party. "I cast Detect Evil and Good. Tell me where and who the Demon is."

follacchisio beat me to it, but I don't think you have to read the spell as being that specific or that powerful. The wording of the spell is consistent with limiting it to revealing the presence of any aberration, celestial, elemental, fey, fiend, or undead, without specifying which type. And if the location of the evil or good creature is revealed by giving their direction and distance (say 15 feet in front of you and 5 feet to your left) it could still be difficult to pick out exactly which person it was in a crowded room because the character would be estimating the distances and there are likely to be multiple people in that general area. These restrictions would introduce uncertainty during situations like a crowded party without negating the spell during dungeon crawling.

[Galithar]

Nondetection is also a viable spell for this.

For eight hours you can't be perceived by any divination magic. You could have them cast it daily, or give them something like an Amulet if Nondetection that passively keeps it up. Or even a plot magic permanent version of it.

Edit: Upon further reading someone may try to rules lawyer around that, because it says "may not be targeted by divination magic" though I feel the intent of the spell holds that it should block Detect Evil and Good even though it has a target of self.

[Cheesegear]

Tell your players you want a lower magic game.

That would be...Untenable.


Give your demons humanoid minions who can go to those crowded parties for them.

That's a good idea.


This is what Nystul's Magic Aura is for.

Derp. You win.


And if the location of the evil or good creature is revealed by giving their direction and distance (say 15 feet in front of you and 5 feet to your left) it could still be difficult to pick out exactly which person it was in a crowded room because the character would be estimating the distances and there are likely to be multiple people in that general area.

The thing is, it's a tracking spell. The spell lasts for 10 minutes. The caster can walk around. 15ft...10ft...5ft...They're in front of you. The player can literally dowse for non-Humanoids.


Nondetection is also a viable spell for this.

For eight hours you can't be perceived by any divination magic. You could have them cast it daily, or give them something like an Amulet if Nondetection that passively keeps it up.

No. I think Nystul's is the way to go; If it's cast 30 days in a row, the spell becomes permanent. A sufficiently powerful Shapechanger would have done that. No fiats required.
Amulets are the wrong way to go, I think. Because if I let them know that the Amulets are on the table, the PCs will want to have them for themselves by the end of the adventure, which will limit my options going forwards in the next adventure(s).

[Unoriginal]

I'm off the books right now, but Protection from Evil/Good counter Detect Evil & Good?

[Wizard_Lizard]

give the demons lead coated armour.

[JackPhoenix]

I'm off the books right now, but Protection from Evil/Good counter Detect Evil & Good?

No. There's no interaction between them.

[Lord Vukodlak]

Use it against them, detect evil & good is not "detect guilty" so you can throw in red herrings for false positives.

There's a wizard in the room with a fiendish familiar curled up in his pocket. (the detect evil would denote a fiend where the wizard is standing ergo he's the demon). Unlike the old style 3.5 version it doesn't give you some aura vision but only tells you where its standing. If it happens to be sharing another creature's space and unseen... fun times.

Put a Tiefling in the room, no surprise that he might register as a fiend.

There's also a "Ring of Mind Shielding" The wearer is "immune to magic that allows other creatures to read your thoughts, determine whether you are lying, know your Alignment, or know your creature type" and to top it off the Ring can be made invisible so no one can see you're wearing it.

Bonus round, there is an Imp in the room shapechanged into a spider(which they can do) hiding in the pocket of an innocent man. While the real demon is protected by the ring.

[No brains]

"THE demon? The room is PACKED with demons!"

A succubus mastermind, a dretch minion in a hat of disguise, a random warlock's invisible imp familiar, and the erinyes third party will all ping as fiends. The party will then have to deduce who to act against and how.

You could also make an encounter with the motion tracker scene in Aliens. Demons hidden just out of sight give a misleading reading and then the party just has to pulse-rifle everything.

[Maan]

Also, threat casting a spell like drawing a sword. Which does make a lot of sense to me.

[Unoriginal]

Also, threat casting a spell like drawing a sword. Which does make a lot of sense to me.

Given that it's pretty hard to make the difference between "they're casting Detect Evil & Good" and "they're casting Fire Wall", yeah, it more than makes sense.

[Wraith]

Amulets are the wrong way to go, I think. Because if I let them know that the Amulets are on the table, the PCs will want to have them for themselves by the end of the adventure, which will limit my options going forwards in the next adventure(s).

The amulet only lasts for 7 days at a time before it needs to be recharged by an overseer. That stops them from being stolen and used by enemies, and also means that people who try to defect from your own side can be located and dealt with rather than have a permanent doodad with which to hide under.

I'd go that route, if only because I wouldn't tell the players that the enchantment had faded until they asked about it. I can't ever think of a time wherein I or another player has picked up a magic item, asked what it does, and then thought to ask if it was an <enchanted item> or and <enchanted><item>, and that has potential for getting them into all sorts of mischief. :smalltongue:

[No brains]

Also, threat casting a spell like drawing a sword. Which does make a lot of sense to me.

A small problem with this is that it's easy to slip out of sight (and/ or earshot) for six seconds to cast a spell that lasts ten minutes. A party at a party could just huddle around the caster and raucously laugh to hide the spell casting in plain sight.

I don't know if concentrating or focusing has any kind of detectable cues to it.

[Sparky McDibben]

There's a couple of ways to go about this.

Giving the fiends nondetection or Nystul's magic aura counters the PCs, but it kind of shuts down their abilities and might make them feel a bit railroaded. So take it a bit further - where did the fiend get access to these spells? Well, what if there's an aggressively neutral mage that will deal with fiends? He can cast nondetection or Nystul's on them in return for future favors. In a large enough setting (Waterdeep, for example) this behavior might not even be illegal. That's a great source for your players to learn about your BBEG indirectly. Given how paranoid wizards are, what if this caster has a contingency cast on their records? If the party are too blunt or direct, the records burn and now they have to deal with the mage directly.

Secondarily, humanoid minions always work well. Maybe you let detect evil and good pick up traces of infernal taint on them, enough so that the players know this individual isn't a fiend per se but has been around one.

Finally, false positives are fantastic. What if the wizard I described above has been retained to cast Nystul's on the host of the party, a retired paladin of excellent reputation. The wizard does so, making it seem as though the host is a demon in disguise. If you're using the "traces of evil" variant I mentioned above, what happens if you decide there is a priestess of Corellon here who has been cursed by a devil for interfering in its plans? She radiates as though she were evil, but in fact she's a victim, not an accessory. Now take it a step further - what if that devil promised to lift the curse on that priestess in return for a simple favor? Now she's a victim and an accessory!

Now step back and watch the PC's set fire to everything while you cackle from the flames!

[SirGraystone]

A few ways have been suggested to counter detect evil & good, one is dispel magic that have a 120' range.

By why stop them, use demon as red herring let them just to wrong conclusion that the fiend is the villain of the story, that succubus working as a courtesan could be a spy working for the king looking to find the BBEG. What if the Duke at court is a demon and the players accuse him to be one in public how are they going to prove it? If detect evil show a child to be a fiend what are they going to do attack it in the street?

[jjordan]

Going off the wall, have you considered what defines evil and good? Just for example, if you consider that evil might be considered selfishness and good might be considered selflessness then walking into the ballroom and casting detect evil might return a low grade cloud of selfishness that the characters have a hard time separating out individuals from. And who's to say the demon is the most evil person in the room? Maybe there's a serial killer completely unrelated to the plot? Maybe the demon has followers?

[Cheesegear]

Going off the wall, have you considered what defines evil and good?

I define it by what the spell says. The spell itself, is a minomer. The spell should actually be called 'Detect Certain non-Humanoids'.

[jh12]

The thing is, it's a tracking spell. The spell lasts for 10 minutes. The caster can walk around. 15ft...10ft...5ft...They're in front of you. The player can literally dowse for non-Humanoids.

Sure, but if it's a crowded party, they are either going to have to get pretty close or spend a significant amount of time staring. Either of which runs the risk of the Demon realizing there are people tracking it (which could lead to countermeasures).

[Maan]

A small problem with this is that it's easy to slip out of sight (and/ or earshot) for six seconds to cast a spell that lasts ten minutes. A party at a party could just huddle around the caster and raucously laugh to hide the spell casting in plain sight.
More in general, I think the way you run a setting can pretty much set the field for this kind of games.

I mean: even if the players *know* that X is a fiend... what are they gonna *do* with the information?

If you openly accuse someone powerful of being a demon, couldn't they just go "Liars! Guards, off with their heads!"?
If they try and convince authorities about it, would them just take the word of the PCs as a proof? Hardly.
Even when they have power on their side, would just a simple casting of a spell be enough of a proof, in a world full of magic and given how easy it is to fool such spells?

Examples:

In a Imperial Legion quest from Morrowind, you may actually talk with a murder victim but if you go back to the officier that gave you the quest with just that he tells you something like "Do you exptect me to tell my superiors I executed someone because you spoke with a ghost?!? Bring me some proof!"

In a scenario I run in "Legend of the Five Rings", the characters got to the point where they knew all the story behind the current events: and they spent a *lot* of time thinking *how* to use that knowledge!
Because they simply couldn't go to this honorable samurai who was doing everything to save her family reputation and just say in her face, "Uh, so, we know your dead brother actually died brinding horrible shame to your whole family, but we are here to help!" She would have disemboweled them on the spot! :miko:

If you couple that with "false positives" and red herrings like others suggested, you can be sure that the players may have suspects, but a single spell will not be enough to solve anything.

[Zakhara]

This was easier back when D&D only had Law/Neutral/Chaos...

The thing is, Alignment is not objective, no matter how hard it pretends. Its continued gameplay relevance is a pox.

There is no way "Detect Evil" can perfectly determine some objective standard: none exists. Everything must be accounted for, which includes not only the target but the caster too.

Originally the spell detected hostile intent. This is an important thing to remember; the fact that a unique individual is casting it ensures that bias exists. "Detect Evil" is subjective because "evil" is subjective.

The most it can do is determine whether someone is "evil" by the caster's standard. The caster's alone.

[OlegRU]

I had always considered those spells to be kind of overpowered... It doesn't kill or damage anyone, but it like totally spoils plot secrets and opens up intentions of NPCs that need to be unrevealed.

Luckily there's that Nytsul's spell that others posted to prevent this. However, what if it's like some low-level sociopath guy doing this who wouldn't have that ability. Perhaps a magic item or something on him? Or like someone else mentioned he gets someone else to cast it on them for payment?

[Laserlight]

There is no way "Detect Evil" can perfectly determine some objective standard: none exists.

You might want to try reading the spell.

[Connington]

This was easier back when D&D only had Law/Neutral/Chaos...

The thing is, Alignment is not objective, no matter how hard it pretends. Its continued gameplay relevance is a pox.

There is no way "Detect Evil" can perfectly determine some objective standard: none exists. Everything must be accounted for, which includes not only the target but the caster too.

Originally the spell detected hostile intent. This is an important thing to remember; the fact that a unique individual is casting it ensures that bias exists. "Detect Evil" is subjective because "evil" is subjective.

The most it can do is determine whether someone is "evil" by the caster's standard. The caster's alone.


I had always considered those spells to be kind of overpowered... It doesn't kill or damage anyone, but it like totally spoils plot secrets and opens up intentions of NPCs that need to be unrevealed.

Luckily there's that Nytsul's spell that others posted to prevent this. However, what if it's like some low-level sociopath guy doing this who wouldn't have that ability. Perhaps a magic item or something on him? Or like someone else mentioned he gets someone else to cast it on them for payment?

Detect Evil and Good locates aberration, celestial, elemental, fey, fiend, or undead, as well as consecrated or deconsecrated places and objects.

It. Does. Not. Detect. Alignment. Neither does a paladin's Divine Sense.

To OP's point - Consider shape-shifting evil dragons in addition to your standard fiends and doppelgangers. If it's just one impostor, including a single ring of Mind-Shielding or Amulet of Nondetection in the party's loot isn't that big of a deal, and it feels more satisfying than explaining after the session "the villain took magical steps to counteract this and was immune". Although that's also a completely DM call.

[Chronos]

Alternately: You know what can make itself look absolute, perfectly indistinguishable from a human, with no magic required?

A human.

There's no reason your BBEG has to be a supernatural creature.

[Galithar]

Alternately: You know what can make itself look absolute, perfectly indistinguishable from a human, with no magic required?

A human.

There's no reason your BBEG has to be a supernatural creature.

I mean... If you're coming from an "I have no material prepared and can do what I want" position then yes. But if your plot involves unseating Asmodeus... Then it's kinda set in stone.

[Lunali]

I mean... If you're coming from an "I have no material prepared and can do what I want" position then yes. But if your plot involves unseating Asmodeus... Then it's kinda set in stone.

Well, presumably when you're unseating Asmodeus, you're dealing with the BBEG in the nine hells, at which point detect evil is prety moot. If you're on the prime material, there are at least as many human servants as fiendish ones, and many of the fiends are potential allies.

[Galithar]

Well, presumably when you're unseating Asmodeus, you're dealing with the BBEG in the nine hells, at which point detect evil is prety moot. If you're on the prime material, there are at least as many human servants as fiendish ones, and many of the fiends are potential allies.

Maybe I went to far with my example. If you've already hinted or outright told the party they are facing a demon you can't suddenly pull the rug from under them and go "Gotcha!" by replacing them with a human.

[JackPhoenix]

Maybe I went to far with my example. If you've already hinted or outright told the party they are facing a demon you can't suddenly pull the rug from under them and go "Gotcha!" by replacing them with a human.

Depends if it's an unplanned asspull to counter something the players did and the GM didn't expected or not. If the party knows they are facing a demon, know where it should be, and perhaps even suspect specific person, and then their suspicion doesn't get confirmed.... why? Was their suspicion wrong and the suspect is innocent? Is the demon using something to foil the divinations? If the suspect *is* an agent of the demon, or a double, where is the real demon? Is the whole thing some elaborate plan to distract the PCs, while their enemy does something else? Would interrogating the suspect help them find him? If the suspect actually is influential and powerful figure, instead of a demon posing as one, how does that change the character's possible approaches to the situation?

Such simple switch, and so many story possibilities....

Last time I did something similar, I did something unusual for me, and wrote the whole web of conspiracies down, just so I could show to my players the whole thing was planned before hand and not just improvisation. Everyone agreed it was fun trying to figure out who's who, what's going on and why.

[Darkstar952]

In my game the group had used this spell to root out a few demonic infiltrators and word of it had got back to the BBEG. So instead of using Nystuls Aura to disguise himself the BBEG let rumours get to the group that there would be more infiltrators at an event.

He then arranged for a couple of powerful nobles attending the event to be waylaid and have Nystuls cast on them so that they appeared as fiends, when the group used detect good/evil they picked up the two nobles as fiends. The group then confronted and killed them before investigating further, end result was the group now found themselves on the run wanted for murder of powerful nobles.

[ChampionWiggles]

I don't know the full context of the situation you're describing, so I can't get too much into it, but I'm of the school of thought that you don't "beat" choices players have made as a DM. Like...someone made the decision to prep (possibly learn) this spell and then use a daily resource to cast it (since it's not a ritual spell). Why are you trying to "gotcha" someone taking a utility spell when those are probably the least taken spells because of how situational they are? Why not have the player actually feel some satisfaction of "Oh hey, prepping and casting this spell WASN'T a complete waste!"?

From the times that I've been a player, I can't tell you how disheartening it is to try and make plans or TRY and be tactful about something and then have it DM hand waved because "That's not how I want it to happen" or "That's not the way I want you to solve this problem". It makes me not want to bother making plans anymore and it makes me feel like my choices don't matter in this game.

[Darkstar952]

I don't know the full context of the situation you're describing, so I can't get too much into it, but I'm of the school of thought that you don't "beat" choices players have made as a DM. Like...someone made the decision to prep (possibly learn) this spell and then use a daily resource to cast it (since it's not a ritual spell). Why are you trying to "gotcha" someone taking a utility spell when those are probably the least taken spells because of how situational they are? Why not have the player actually feel some satisfaction of "Oh hey, prepping and casting this spell WASN'T a complete waste!"?

From the times that I've been a player, I can't tell you how disheartening it is to try and make plans or TRY and be tactful about something and then have it DM hand waved because "That's not how I want it to happen" or "That's not the way I want you to solve this problem". It makes me not want to bother making plans anymore and it makes me feel like my choices don't matter in this game.

From my experience its not so much about a "Gotcha" moment against the players, its more about having supposedly highly intelligent and cunning creatures not have their plans undone by a single 1st Level spell. Creatures like that would take whatever precautions they could against common threats, in the exact same way players plan counter-measures against an enemies known abilities.

[Man_Over_Game]

This thread has given me an interesting idea:

Take a stone, cast Nystyl's Magical Aura on it to make it appear as an Evil Fiend. Cover it up with Lead when you don't it emitting that aura, or use it to catch the attention of people looking for evildoers, as most forms of magical detection only are able to point you in a rough direction.

You could use it as a recruitment tool, or you could use it to trap evildoers who travel through your city.

[LudicSavant]

Take a stone, cast Nystyl's Magical Aura on it

Yeah, you can carry Nystul's objects around in lead because the duration is permanent. It's just one of the many things you can throw on any Wizard for no investment of spell slots on actual adventuring days, like magic mouth earpieces or the ability to get rid of magical Darkness by walking into it.

[Sigreid]

It would be a great deal more fun to cast the magic aura spell on one or more other people.

[ChampionWiggles]

Yeah, you can carry Nystul's objects around in lead because the duration is permanent.

Nystul's magic aura only lasts 24 hours...unless you're willing to spend 30 days casting it on the same thing/person.


It's just one of the many things you can throw on any Wizard for no investment of spell slots on actual adventuring days, like magic mouth earpieces or the ability to get rid of magical Darkness by walking into it.

...wut

[LudicSavant]

Nystul's magic aura only lasts 24 hours.

You really ought to read the spell description before "correcting" people.

If you cast it repeatedly, it becomes permanent, barring someone dispelling it.



If you cast this spell on the same creature or object every day for 30 days, placing the same effect on it each time, the illusion lasts until it is dispelled.

edit:
Just to be clear to anyone reading this...

...unless you're willing to spend 30 days casting it on the same thing/person.
This was edited into his post after I replied to it. My post was at 2:20. He edited this in at 2:22.

[Darkstar952]

You really ought to read the spell description before "correcting" people.

If you cast it repeatedly, it becomes permanent.

Maybe you ought to read all of someones post before quoting just part of it to "correct" them, the full version of his post already points out that 30 days of casting was required for it to be permanent.

[LudicSavant]

Maybe you ought to read all of someones post before quoting just part of it to "correct" them, the full version of his post already points out that 30 days of casting was required for it to be permanent.

Actually, he edited that into his post after I replied.

Check the timestamps.

[ChampionWiggles]

Nah, the original post I said it was 24 hours and then immediately went back to edit after I read the spell again. He must've been posting the response while I was editing.

But the way your post was worded made it seem like you were implying the default duration was permanent.

[MrConsideration]

Do a G K Chesterton. It turns out everyone in the party is a demonic spy, but the ultimate result is they're only passing information on the actions of rival demons.

[ChampionWiggles]

From my experience its not so much about a "Gotcha" moment against the players, its more about having supposedly highly intelligent and cunning creatures not have their plans undone by a single 1st Level spell. Creatures like that would take whatever precautions they could against common threats, in the exact same way players plan counter-measures against an enemies known abilities.

Oh, yea. That's honestly a fair point. Could make the argument that it depends on the setting of this scheming is. But if there's known spell casters in the town/city, the demon/whatever would probably be taking precautions to not be revealed. The phrasing of "How to 'beat'" is just kind of what rubbed me wrong.

[LudicSavant]

Nah, the original post I said it was 24 hours and then immediately went back to edit after I read the spell again.

Indeed. Thank you for clarifying that.


...wut

It's one of the oft-overlooked effects of having a Continual Flame item created by a caster of 5th level or higher who has the foresight to upcast when they use it.

Magical Darkness can be illuminated by any magical light created by a spell slot of 3rd level or higher (regardless of what level the Darkness is cast at). Continual Flame lasts until dispelled, so that 50gp torch you got instead of spending a precious cantrip slot on Light doubles as magical Darkness repellent. Note that it doesn't actually dispel the Darkness, it just... makes it stop being dark while you're in the area. Or, in other words, get rid of the darkness by walking into it.

We've had a few people on here in the past telling stories of the look on their DM's faces when they thought that a Devil's Sight / Darkness Warlock would make a challenging boss fight, only for the DM to realize that the Darkness is illuminated by something the players did 20 sessions ago and the Warlock just left themselves exposed in melee range of the party.

Edit:
Here's the relevant rules quotes:

nonmagical light can't illuminate it.

If any of this spell's area overlaps with an area of light created by a spell of 2nd level or lower, the spell that created the light is dispelled.

CASTlNG A SPELL AT A HIGHER LEVEL
When a spellcaster casts a spell using a slot that is of a higher level than the spell, the spell assumes the higher levei for that casting.

End result: an upcast Continual Flame is a spell of 3rd level or higher, and is magical light, and therefore can illuminate magical Darkness.

[ChampionWiggles]

It's one of the oft-overlooked effects of having a Continual Flame item created by a caster of 5th level or higher who has the foresight to upcast when they use it.

Magical Darkness can be illuminated by any magical light created by a spell slot of 3rd level or higher (regardless of what level the Darkness is cast at). Continual Flame lasts until dispelled, so that 50gp torch you got instead of spending a precious cantrip slot on Light doubles as magical Darkness repellent. Note that it doesn't actually dispel the Darkness, it just... makes it stop being dark while you're in the area. Or, in other words, get rid of the darkness by walking into it.

We've had a few people on here in the past telling stories of the look on their DM's faces when they thought that a Devil's Sight / Darkness Warlock would make a challenging boss fight, only for the DM to realize that the Darkness is illuminated by something the players did 20 sessions ago and the Warlock just left themselves exposed in melee range of the party.


Again, the confusion came up because of a lack on clarifying conditions and just wording things that made it seem like they were definite.

"Yeah, you can carry Nystul's objects around in lead because the duration is permanent (After being cast 30 days straight)"
"...or the ability to get rid of magical Darkness by walking into it (with an up cast Continual Flame active)."

Regardless, I actually had to check Sage Advice to see if that's legit and sure enough Crawford confirmed that this is the case (even though Mearls made a contradictory ruling 2 years earlier, but CRAWFORD DADDY IS ALWAYS RIGHT[joking]). But anyways that's a pretty neat trick! I had no clue on that. Will have to keep that in mind for my Forge Cleric in my Ravnica campaign, since he am hooman! Thanks!

[Zakhara]

You might want to try reading the spell.

Indeed. Reading the spell as written leads to questions necessitating threads like this. Common sense is more important.

[noob]

Indeed. Reading the spell as written leads to questions necessitating threads like this. Common sense is more important.

I tried using common sense and it told me it was a bad idea to spend time playing dnd or discussing about dnd.
So using common sense is not the way to go with dnd.

[Constructman]

Indeed. Reading the spell as written leads to questions necessitating threads like this. Common sense is more important.

Excrpt common sense is that unless a creature is under the effect of Nystul's Magic Aura, it will ping under Detect Evil and Good if it's one of the creature types listed under it. It has nothing to do with objective standards, nothing to do with ethical codes. So next time, read the ****ing spell before you blabber on and say something completely irrelevant.

[JackPhoenix]

Excrpt common sense is that unless a creature is under the effect of Nystul's Magic Aura, it will ping under Detect Evil and Good if it's one of the creature types listed under it. It has nothing to do with objective standards, nothing to do with ethical codes. So next time, read the ****ing spell before you blabber on and say something completely irrelevant.

To be fair, creature type *is* pretty objective....

[Zakhara]

The creature types are assumed as "good/evil" because they're being matched against some objective human standard. That's why the spell is dubbed "Detect Good/Evil," not "Detect Laundry List of Creature Types." Detection of creatures types is objective, yes, but it's relying on a baked-in, unnecessary assumption of their alignments to make it happen.

[Chronos]

No, it's called "Detect Evil and Good" because the name is a holdover from previous editions where there really were spells that actually detected alignment, and they took out most of the mechanical impact of alignment in 5th edition, but for some reason wanted to keep a spell by that name. It really should have just been called "Detect Supernatural".

[Zakhara]

It really should have just been called "Detect Supernatural".

I'll admit that's the easiest way to "fix" the spell, but I'm uncertain if that fully resolves the problem OP brought forth. Hence why I proposed violating RAW to an extreme.

I understand that my suggestion is off-base in regards to how to "beat" Detect Good/Evil as given in 5e, but that was kind of the point. I think taking a very different approach would rationalize the spell's content and provide a potential answer to OP's question. If this remains a RAW discussion and not a theoretical one, it's evident that now's my time to bow out.

[hamishspence]

The creature types are assumed as "good/evil" because they're being matched against some objective human standard. That's why the spell is dubbed "Detect Good/Evil," not "Detect Laundry List of Creature Types." Detection of creatures types is objective, yes, but it's relying on a baked-in, unnecessary assumption of their alignments to make it happen.

Thing is though, aberrations vary a lot in alignment (flumphs, for example, being Good, and many others being Neutral or Evil).

Which may mean that no "assumptions of creature alignments" are actually being made.


No, it's called "Detect Evil and Good" because the name is a holdover from previous editions where there really were spells that actually detected alignment, and they took out most of the mechanical impact of alignment in 5th edition, but for some reason wanted to keep a spell by that name.

In BECMI D&D, it detected hostility, regardless of its name.

So 5e wouldn't be the only edition where the name of the spell is a misnomer.

[JackPhoenix]

Thing is though, aberrations vary a lot in alignment (flumphs, for example, being Good, and many others being Neutral or Evil).

Which may mean that no "assumptions of creature alignments" are actually being made.

And elementals are generally neutral, and fey can be all over the place.

Celestial and fiends, sure, those are good or evil (respectively) 99% of the time, and undead are similarily evil more often than not.

[hamishspence]

The spell should actually be called 'Detect Certain non-Humanoids'.

I'd call it "Detect Alien/Extraplanar Energies". Good and Evil are alien energies in this context - and not the only ones.

Undead would be coated in Shadowfell Energy
Fey would be coated in Feywild Energy
Elementals would be coated in Elemental Energy
Aberrations would be coated in Far Realm Energy.
Celestials would be coated in Upper Planes Energy ("Good")
Fiends would be coated in Lower Planes Energy ("Evil")

Consecrate and Desecrate spells would also be detected, because they imbue an area with Upper Planes Energy and Lower Planes Energy respectively.