Just another Sorcerer Thread

[Bjarkmundur]

A lot of the time when a issue with a class comes up, I kinda have to take your word for it. I have not played every class or subclass in the game, and a lot of times I need to balance something I didn't know was unbalanced, or don't completely understand. But I have a responsibility to my players to give them the smoothest class experience possible.

The target of my focus today is the Sorcerer. A lot of people have a problem with the Sorcerer, and although it doesn't solve the problem, a few extra spells known seems to smooth out the experience.

I have one such discussion in my signature, which sounds like a reasonable solution. It's still missing the only subclass I need to tweak; the Runechild.

The theme of the runechild seems to be self-buffing. He has a resource that allows him to reduce damage taken, gain advantage on ability checks, and even detect magic. I'm trying to make a list of additional spells known that fits with the theme. The problem is I don't want to just cherry pick the best spells from the Sorcerer spell list. Can you help me figure this out?

Kinda feels weird asking the playground "what are the most mediocre spells that fit this theme?" when most of you specialise in OPness xD

Example of 1st Level Possibilities
Absorb Elements
False Life
Mage Armor
Shield

[Unoriginal]

From what document is the Runechild?

[Bjarkmundur]

From what document is the Runechild?

Matt Mercer's Tal'Dorai Campaign Setting.
I have no idea what it is, but it looks fine and my player is so excited to play this subclass. Honestly, I had never heard of it before he sent me the link (http://dnd5e.wikidot.com/sorcerer:runechild).

And, please don't kill my thread with a signature Unoriginal unhelpful reply <3

[Unoriginal]

Matt Mercer's Tal'Dorai Campaign Setting.
I have no idea what it is

Ah. Well, to explain what it is factually, it's a bunch of homebrews Matt Mercer did for his campaign setting (where the Critical Role campaigns take place).



but it looks fine and my player is so excited to play this subclass. Honestly, I had never heard of it before he sent me the link (http://dnd5e.wikidot.com/sorcerer:runechild).

Honestly if you want to give it more spells, I'd suggest giving it spells that are linked to runes/symbols/writing. Like Illusory Script, Skywrite, Legend Lore, Symbol, Glyph of Warding,



And, please don't kill my thread with a signature Unoriginal unhelpful reply <3

I told you already, I can't kill threads.

If a thread stop being responded to after my reply, it's not that I killed it, it's that other people aren't interested enough to reply.

[Bjarkmundur]

Thank you ^^
I hadn't thought about looking outside the sorc spell list :)

[Dr. Cliché]

I don't think it's OP or anything but the Runechild's rules seem to be written in a very convoluted way.

[Unoriginal]

I don't think it's OP or anything but the Runechild's rules seem to be written in a very convoluted way.

Not surprising. It's an homebrew, and Mercer's still doing modifications to his homebrew subclasses.

[strangebloke]

I don't think it's OP or anything but the Runechild's rules seem to be written in a very convoluted way.

Yup. Welcome to the wet and wild world of homebrew!

Notably, the 'charged runes' don't reset on a long rest and there's no upper limit to how many you can have. So you can just stack them forever on days where you're not doing anything. Obviously if you try this Matt Mercer throws a book at your head, but its an example of how the rules aren't super polished.

Very cool, though, and compared with some other MM homebrew that you don't hear so much about (like the juggernaut), I actually think it works pretty well. Having a 1d6/level damage reduction is no joke, and I really like the 'spend sorcery points in the course of a day to get extra healing.'

Would make for a very good sorcerer gish. like, the Sorcerer's biggest problem as a gish is low HP. This effectively gives you a second pool of hit dice. 1d6 damage prevention per sorcery point. 1 sorcery point per level. 1d6 per level is how much you get from your hit dice.

Added bonus is that you can reduce damage to zero, avoiding a CON save.

[TheUser]

The sorcerer is problematic because it requires a lot of system mastery and finesse to play. And constructing/planning one is very unforgiving if you mess up.

This is counter intuitive to 5th edition, which at its core is trying to promote accessibility to a larger mainstream audience.

In harsher words, normies who suck at the game build them poorly and play them even worse and blame the class when it has the word "meta" built into its core features.

Once I latched on to how powerful subtle spell was all the other throttling of the class made perfect sense to me.

Twinned, Quickened and Empower are also strong in their own right but Subtle spell affects the social element of the game so strongly that DM's must now change the way social encounters are handled lest the subtle sorcerer upend the social game entirely.

[War_lord]

{Scrubbed}

[Kane0]

First, some required reading:
Why Ever use Sorcerer? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?571807-Why-Ever-use-Sorcerer)
The Sorcerer & Warlock frustrate me (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?546548-The-Sorcerer-amp-Warlock-frustrate-me)
I don't get the Sorcerer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?538605-I-don-t-get-the-Sorcerer)
Sorcerer: the most unsatisfying class (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?534114-Sorcerer-the-most-unsatisfying-class)
Why do people hate the sorcerer? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?493063-Why-do-people-hate-the-sorcerer)

This discussion is not new. Sorcerers are strong fullcasters with notable flaws, and are just as contentious as rangers when it comes to addressing them. Very few agree on what, if anything, is wrong with the sorcerer and how to fix it.

[Galithar]

Yup. Welcome to the wet and wild world of homebrew!

Notably, the 'charged runes' don't reset on a long rest and there's no upper limit to how many you can have. So you can just stack them forever on days where you're not doing anything. Obviously if you try this Matt Mercer throws a book at your head, but its an example of how the rules aren't super polished.



You may be working with an outdated version of Runechild but you have runes equal to your levels in Sorcerer that reset on a long rest. (From the published version of Runechild in his Tal'dorei campaign guide)

Also of note, in order to get the damage reduction from your runes you have to be using sorcerery points to charge them. So it can be good in a Gish build, but you need to make sure you consistently using your sorcery points. Most would probably do this with Twinned/Quickened Booming Blades though so probably a non-issue just something to point out.

[strangebloke]

You may be working with an outdated version of Runechild but you have runes equal to your levels in Sorcerer that reset on a long rest. (From the published version of Runechild in his Tal'dorei campaign guide)

Also of note, in order to get the damage reduction from your runes you have to be using sorcerery points to charge them. So it can be good in a Gish build, but you need to make sure you consistently using your sorcery points. Most would probably do this with Twinned/Quickened Booming Blades though so probably a non-issue just something to point out.

The runes don't de charge on a long rest.

[Galithar]

The runes don't de charge on a long rest.

Yes actually they do. Again you may be working with an outdated version of the class. I have the published Tal'dorei Campaign guide.



If you have 5 or more charged runes, you emit bright light in a 5 foot radius and dim light for an additional 5 feet. Any charged runes revert to inert essence runes after you complete a long rest.


I just checked the link posted earlier in the thread, and the exact same wording is present there. They revert to an inert state after a long rest.

[Garfunion]

First, some required reading:
Why Ever use Sorcerer? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?571807-Why-Ever-use-Sorcerer)
The Sorcerer & Warlock frustrate me (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?546548-The-Sorcerer-amp-Warlock-frustrate-me)
I don't get the Sorcerer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?538605-I-don-t-get-the-Sorcerer)
Sorcerer: the most unsatisfying class (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?534114-Sorcerer-the-most-unsatisfying-class)
Why do people hate the sorcerer? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?493063-Why-do-people-hate-the-sorcerer)

This discussion is not new. Sorcerers are strong fullcasters with notable flaws, and are just as contentious as rangers when it comes to addressing them. Very few agree on what, if anything, is wrong with the sorcerer and how to fix it.
Hey! One of my threads is here. I thought it was forgotten.
It still frustrates me. Though I have learned to accept it the way it is.

[sophontteks]

There are those who think subtle spell is amazing.
And those who hate sorcerers.

[Kane0]

Complaints I've seen (and made) regarding the sorcerer:

- A shortage of spells known
- No sorcerer-unique spells on their list
- Font of Magic bleeds resources
- Metamagic is the only class feature
- Metamagic is inflexible
- Metamagic is relied on too heavily
- There are no short rest resources or recovery features
- The capstone sucks
- Unintuitive class mechanics
- There is little incentive to stay singleclassed
- Cognitive dissonance between fluff and mechanics

[Garfunion]

There are those who think subtle spell is amazing.
And those who hate sorcerers.
Subtle spell is only really good in campaigns that have a lot of social interactions.

[sophontteks]

Subtle spell is only really good in campaigns that have a lot of social interactions.
Thats your opinion.
And whats your opinion on sorcerers?

[Garfunion]

And whats your opinion on sorcerers?
They frustrate me. You could create a wizard archetype that gives them meta-magic and a form of sorcery points, and boom you now have a sorcerer. Think fighter(battle master) but for wizard. As for the sorcerer archetypes you can give them to the warlock.

[sophontteks]

They frustrate me. You could create a wizard archetype that gives them meta-magic and a form of sorcery points, and boom you now have a sorcerer. Think fighter(battle master) but for wizard. As for the sorcerer archetypes you can give them to the warlock.
If only they had access to subtle spell.

[Galithar]

I understand that many people don't like the Sorcerer, but I've never seen a 'fix' (other then adding spells known) that didn't make them broken.

People look at Sorcerer's wrong. They aren't competing with wizards directly, they do something else.

Wizards are generalist with a slight specialty. I'm a Diviner, but that doesn't mean I won't fireball you into next week.

Sorcerer's are explicit specialists. You only get s handful of spells and they HAVE to be the right ones. You need around 5 combat spells that fit your niche, and you have to accept that those are the only ones you're going to have or accept that you'll never contribute outside of combat.

My Sorcerer uses Spiritual Weapon, Spirit Guardians, Shield, Fireball, Haste, and Enervation.

I use Spiritual Weapon as my consistent damage, when possible I move into a crowd and drop Spirit Guardians, then I channel Enervation on the biggest mofo I can see and keep in range. I'll drop a fireball when appropriate, but it's usually a waste of a slot for me unless I hit 4 or more enemies I'm better off doing something else for my party with that action, or prepping my Spirit Guardians.

I deal 3d8 to anything in 15 feet of me, 2d8+5 to a single target, and 4d8 to another (or same target) with 2d8 healing in myself in the longer combats. Sightly more when upcasting (I almost always upcast Spiritual Weapon, hen ce me setting it's baseline at 2d8). It's effective when the battle caters to my specialty. 9d8+5 and a self heal? I feel pretty good about that since I can keep it up for a few fights per day, but usually don't need all of it. Resource management is important for a Sorcerer. Yes it's a lot of ramp up, but I'm not useless before everything is up.

Turn one is cantrip + Spiritual Weapon.
Turn two I hit Spirit Guardians up if needed for the fight and attack with the weapon.
Turn 3+ either turns in Enervation or just throws cantrips.

I excel in social situations, because I have Twinned and Subtle as my metamagic. Subtle suggestion and command are phenomenal for this.

When battles don't fit my specialty (melee range mobs) I adapt by buffing my party. Twinned haste on the Barbarian and Bard. And then slinging Twinned cantrips.

I'm really good at what I do, but I can't adapt much unlike a wizard. A wizard could NEVER do what I do though.

Edit: to explain my presence in the front line I've taken feats to get moderately armored. In addition I'm a warforged with an AC of 21 at level 9. 13+2 Dex+4 prof+2 shield.

Edit 2: Replace Enervation with another damage spell. I forgot it was a house rule that allowed that combo. DM ruled spells that require an action every turn or are lost don't take concentration because they takes my action every turn. Even replacing that it's still a potent combo, it just would negate the healing factor which is nice, but using a Twinned cantrip is just as much damage (though more costly sorcery point wise)

[Garfunion]

If only they had access to subtle spell.
They can. It is called multiclassing. Which is what most players do with the sorcerer.

[Kane0]

Sorcerer's are explicit specialists. You only get s handful of spells and they HAVE to be the right ones. You need around 5 combat spells that fit your niche, and you have to accept that those are the only ones you're going to have or accept that you'll never contribute outside of combat.


Yes, sorcerers are strong.

But they are also poorly designed.

[Galithar]

Yes, sorcerers are strong.

But they are also poorly designed.

I disagree. What is 'poorly designed'?

They have clearly described abilities (ignoring some people bickering on whether or not things like Dragons Breath can be Twinned) that do what they say they do. They have limited spell selection, because the selection they have can be empowered by metamagic.

Now I can totally understand not LIKING their design, but what about how they are written is so poor?

[Kane0]

So what are the differences between an evoker wizard and a sorcerer using say empower and careful?

[Garfunion]

I disagree. What is 'poorly designed'?
Tell me who can do more spell casting in an adventuring day, a 2nd level sorcerer or a 2nd level wizard.

[Galithar]

Tell me who can do more spell casting in an adventuring day, a 2nd level sorcerer or a 2nd level wizard.

Give me one more level so font of magic comes online and they're the same most of the time. Even if they weren't. Who can cast more spells in a day? A second level wizard or a second level Warlock? Wizards must be poorly designed because A WARLOCK gets more castings per day at level 2... Differences are not poor design and singling out one level where the Wizard gets a single first level spell slot over the Sorcerer... Come on.

Edit: Remember back in my first post when I said they are fundamentally different from Wizards? Yeah Arcane recovery is one of those differences. Wizards have spells for each issue throughout a day. The Sorcerer puts all his resources into 5 really good spells. If they don't come up, yes he was less effective that day. But what if your Barbarian has to fight a flying enemy with no way to ground him? Is the Barbarian class poorly designed because it's not flawlessly powerful?

[Kane0]

Edit: Remember back in my first post when I said they are fundamentally different from Wizards? Yeah Arcane recovery is one of those differences.


Differences are not poor design

But more to the point:


Complaints I've seen (and made) regarding the sorcerer:

- A shortage of spells known
- No sorcerer-unique spells on their list
- Font of Magic bleeds resources
- Metamagic is the only class feature
- Metamagic is inflexible
- Metamagic is relied on too heavily
- There are no short rest resources or recovery features
- The capstone sucks
- Unintuitive class mechanics
- There is little incentive to stay singleclassed
- Cognitive dissonance between fluff and mechanics

And i'll throw in an extra one. Sorcerers get two long rest based resource pools that are used for the same thing: spells.

And like I said, this has been discussed at length already. If you don't think there is a problem with sorcerers, that's fine. There's plenty of people on both sides.

[Garfunion]

Give me one more level so font of magic comes online and they're the same most of the time. Even if they weren't. Who can cast more spells in a day? A second level wizard or a second level Warlock? Wizards must be poorly designed because A WARLOCK gets more castings per day at level 2... Differences are not poor design and singling out one level where the Wizard gets a single first level spell slot over the Sorcerer... Come on.

Edit: Remember back in my first post when I said they are fundamentally different from Wizards? Yeah Arcane recovery is one of those differences. Wizards have spells for each issue throughout a day. The Sorcerer puts all his resources into 5 really good spells. If they don't come up, yes he was less effective that day. But what if your Barbarian has to fight a flying enemy with no way to ground him? Is the Barbarian class poorly designed because it's not flawlessly powerful?
Sorcerer get font of magic at 2nd level. A Warlock during a normal adventuring day can get up to 6 spell slots (two short rests). But a wizard has ritual casting so they can cast more.

[Galithar]

But more to the point:

And i'll throw in an extra one. Sorcerers get two long rest based resource pools that are used for the same thing: spells.

And like I said, this has been discussed at length already. If you don't think there is a problem with sorcerers, that's fine. There's plenty of people on both sides.

Almost all of that is simply 'I don't like metamagic'.
Getting two resources to use for your main purpose of being a character is not poor design. It actually just ties the class together nicelyn in my eyes. You have to resources that do different things to your main feature, spell casting. One powers them, one alters them.

No Sorcerer only spells? First, I don't see a problem with this. But technically there is one :P Chaos Bolt. Respectable complaint, but I still don't think it reflects a poorly designed class, as much as a minor oversight that detracts from the class. Totally understand this point, but personally find it to be the only valid one. I would have loved to see some sorcerer only spells, but I have never felt that it runs the class in any way.

How does Font of Magic bleed resources? It allows you to create spell slots, that line up to be roughly equivalent to what a wizard can get from Arcane recovery if you're for some reason trying to keep up with them in number of casts. It does exactly what it's supposed to, which is a minor feature of the class. Metamagic is their bread and butter.

Unintuitive class mechanics is personal opinion and subject to bad DM rulings making them so. This is purely subjective and I'm asking for objective shortcomings.

And again someone's cognitive dissonance if the class is subjective. I feel the fluff and mechanics do fine with each other. I have a lot of head cannon that subconsciously overwrites things sometimes though so whatever. It's a minimal issue in the first place. It's a roleplaying game, the DM has final say on his world's fluff.

@Garfunion
Not being able to ritual cast like a wizard is again a difference not poor design. Is every class without ritual casting poorly designed? And I always forget that Font of Magic comes online before metamagic. Thanks.

Also ritual spells only do so much, and in so many games I've seen the martials end up with the ritual casting job by picking up ritual caster. Also a level 3 tomelock is a better ritual caster then a level 3 wizard and that doesn't change as they level up... Wizards must be poorly designed. *Rolls eyes*

[Dalebert]

Somewhere around upper tier 2, I find I most games I end with lots of extra spell slots. I think having access to magic items is big contributor to this fact. Action economy is critical in the game. Taking all these into account is how you start to realize the strengths of a sorcerer. They have features that let them burn resources faster and hotter to be more effective.

If you just want to be able to cast more spells or have more utility, play a wizard. Also, there are certain specializations where a sorcerer just isn't the right fit (minionmancer comes to mind). If you want to implement some insanely effective and brutal tactics, a sorcerer may be the way to go. Or as was pointed out already, if you want to be super-specialized with limited scope but very very good at what you do.

[Garfunion]

@Garfunion
Not being able to ritual cast like a wizard is again a difference not poor design. Is every class without ritual casting poorly designed? And I always forget that Font of Magic comes online before metamagic. Thanks.
Every “full caster” gets ritual casting in some way, except the sorcerer.

The bard has more proficiencies (skill, armor, weapons), song of rest, jack of all trades, bardic Inspiration(supped up bless/guidance) ritual casting; by level two.

The cleric has more weapon and armor proficiencies, can choose different spells each day plus domain spells, channel divinity, ritual casting; by level two

The Druid has more weapon and armor proficiencies, can choose different spells each day and wild shape (short rest recovery) ritual casting; by level two

The warlock gets more weapon and armor proficiencies, a unique spellcasting feature(pact magic), access to one of the most powerful cantrip, invocations that provide many passive effects including effects that alter said powerful cantrip by level two

The wizard learns and prepares more spells per day, from a more diverse spell list, arcane recover, ritual casting; by level two

The sorcerer knows fewer spells, limited spell list, font of magic; by level two.

As you can see the sorcerer gets the short end of the stick at level two.


Metamagic is cool but, that resource can burn out quickly unless you want to sacrifice your spellcasting slots.

[Galithar]

Every “full caster” gets ritual casting in some way, except the sorcerer.

The bard has more proficiencies (skill, armor, weapons), song of rest, jack of all trades, bardic Inspiration(supped up bless/guidance) ritual casting; by level two.

The cleric has more weapon and armor proficiencies, can choose different spells each day plus domain spells, channel divinity, ritual casting; by level two

The Druid has more weapon and armor proficiencies, can choose different spells each day and wild shape (short rest recovery) ritual casting; by level two

The warlock gets more weapon and armor proficiencies, a unique spellcasting feature(pact magic), access to one of the most powerful cantrip, invocations that provide many passive effects including effects that alter said powerful cantrip by level two

The wizard learns and prepares more spells per day, from a more diverse spell list, arcane recover, ritual casting; by level two

The sorcerer knows fewer spells, limited spell list, font of magic; by level two.

As you can see the sorcerer gets the short end of the stick at level two.
Metamagic is cool but, that resource can burn out quickly unless you want to sacrifice your spellcasting slots.

First, I legitimately think Bards are poorly designed. They're supposed to fall into some Jack of all Trades master of none, but end up Jack of all trades, master of most.
That's a whole different discussion.

Sorcerers get things like increased health per level, the ability to impose Disadvantage on enemy saves (more than just meta magic. Hound of Ill Omen), increased AC, at-will flight, at-will single use bless/bane. Sure these things don't all come online early, but that's actually BETTER design. Sorcerers are one of the only classes that isn't front loaded. Now you can argue that it's poor design to have a class that isn't front loaded like the others, but I don't think level 2 is as important as you're trying to make it out to be. So if the lack of front loading is your basis then we'll just have to agree to disagree there. I think the better measure of them is how they play in tier 2 since it's probably the most commonly played tier. And having played, and seen them played in that range I think they perform very well when played correctly, and poorly when people try to play them like a wizard. That's not a design flaw that's just people coming at the class with misconceptions.

Edit: I'll also take quickened and or Twinned cantrips over EB most times. It costs a resource but is (other then purpose built EB spammers) more effective for the party.

Also ritual casting is not what makes a caster. Warlocks need a certain pact and invocation for it. And most casters don't have the awesome ritual list wizards do. Additionally I think not having ritual casting is a deliberate design choice due to the fluff of sorcerers. Then don't harness an outside force, it come from within them. That's not what a ritual is.

[Garfunion]

First, I legitimately think Bards are poorly designed. They're supposed to fall into some Jack of all Trades master of none, but end up Jack of all trades, master of most.
That's a whole different discussion.

Sorcerers get things like increased health per level, the ability to impose Disadvantage on enemy saves (more than just meta magic. Hound of Ill Omen), increased AC, at-will flight, at-will single use bless/bane. Sure these things don't all come online early, but that's actually BETTER design. Sorcerers are one of the only classes that isn't front loaded. Now you can argue that it's poor design to have a class that isn't front loaded like the others, but I don't think level 2 is as important as you're trying to make it out to be. So if the lack of front loading is your basis then we'll just have to agree to disagree there. I think the better measure of them is how they play in tier 2 since it's probably the most commonly played tier. And having played, and seen them played in that range I think they perform very well when played correctly, and poorly when people try to play them like a wizard. That's not a design flaw that's just people coming at the class with misconceptions.

Edit: I'll also take quickened and or Twinned cantrips over EB most times. It costs a resource but is (other then purpose built EB spammers) more effective for the party.

Also ritual casting is not what makes a caster. Warlocks need a certain pact and invocation for it. And most casters don't have the awesome ritual list wizards do. Additionally I think not having ritual casting is a deliberate design choice due to the fluff of sorcerers. Then don't harness an outside force, it come from within them. That's not what a ritual is.
I wasn’t calculating archetypes abilities in my list(or it would be a long list). Just looking a base class abilities.

However I will agree to disagree. The potency of a sorcerer’s metamagic really depends on the campaign/group and proper spell selection.

I also look at the lower levels to determine if I will feel strong or weak with the group. It all depends if you can hold out long enough to actually start feeling like your class can do some cool things.

[Galithar]

I wasn’t calculating archetypes abilities in my list(or it would be a long list). Just looking a base class abilities.

However I will agree to disagree. The potency of a sorcerer’s metamagic really depends on the campaign/group and proper spell selection.

I also look at the lower levels to determine if I will feel strong or weak with the group. It all depends if you can hold out long enough to actually start feeling like your class can do some cool things.

See that's another thing, you can't just look at the base class to judge sorcerers. They are pretty strongly identified by their subclass. Draconic is more resilient, wild is... Well I'd be okay if that one got rewritten because it's too DM dependant, Divine Soul gets probably the best list to choose from (even with limited number known this is a powerful feature) a 2d4 once per rest Bless on themselves, Storm gets lots of little controller effects.

There's just a lot invested in the metamagic from the base class so there isn't much room to give them more without making them overshadow the others. I can definitely understand you finding them weaker in the early game though. They actually are. But I find that they make up for it in the long run. By level 5 they feel pretty good compared to others. Early game you might just end up feeling like a Firebolt turret depending on how you play them though.

I think you might find them a bit more appealing if you created a few sorcerer only spells, and then gave each subclass a list of spells they always know, like the Cleric domain spells.

Edited because my phone sucks...

[sophontteks]

Sorcerers are crazy weak in the early game. Their first level spell selection is atrocious. My shadow sorcerer just mulches them up for more metamagic later on.

Font is a great ability. It's perfectly effecient when turning spells into metamagic. Shadow sorcerer darkness costs the same as a 2nd level spell, and twinned spells cost the same as casting the spell twice. I wouldn't recommend going the other direction, but with good spell selection and metamagic decisions, it pays off not to. Shadow sorcerers have it really good here, because they basically get two spells castable with metamagic.

Sorcerers break the rules and they pay a lot for the ability to do it.
- Subtle bypasses the rules designed to detect and counter spellcasting.
- Twinned breaks the concentration rules.
- Quickened breaks action economy.

The other metamagics are pretty weak, except empowered, which is ridiculously strong on AOE spells. This stuff is not campaign-dependent. If they aren't working its probably due to poor spell selection.

Unfortunately, the cost is high, and it almost ruins the class. Careful spell selection is a must, or the character will just plain suck. This is bad design, espesially for this edition. Poor design is seen with some of the archtypes too. I know others disagree, but I think the only two viable choices as written are shadow and draconic. Fortunately they are both really good.

There is a big risk sorcerers have to deal with in the metagame too. Since they depend on really abusing a select few spells, the kneejerk reaction for a DM may be to create encounters designed to specifically counter those spells, or nerf those spells. Well, a sorcerer can't adapt to this, at all. This espesially kills wild sorcerers, since the archtype depends on the DM's permission. If you play a wild sorcerer well, the DM may decide to limit your surges.

But for sorcerers who do their research, the sorcerer is the scariest caster in the game, bar none. No caster can come close to the power a sorcerer can unleash in a single round. The power of things like twinned haste, or greater invisibility is just crazy, and good subtle illusion spells will end encounters before they begin. D&D heavily favors those who can get the most out of a single round, from there encounters tend to snowball.

[Phoenix042]

I have a lot of experience with sorcerers in my games; I've built many of them, DM'd for several (one into the high levels, all starting out at the low levels), and frequently use them when building certain types of important powerful NPCs.

I've also seen them handled by a couple of different groups. Here's my two coppers:

1) Sorcerers can be REALLY strong, and can often contribute well to both combat and social situations.

2) People definitely have some legitimate gripes. I think that for any part of the game that might require only minor tweaking, or for which power is still plentiful, there will always be lots of people claiming that nothing is wrong, but from a game - design perspective, the sorcerer definitely has a few problems.

The main one, I think, is spell selection. Metamagic is really strong and feels quite fun and flavorful in play, and sorcerers are SUPPOSED to feel limited and focused on their particular spells. They were just simply overtuned for this. They need a small amount of additional spells known, even if it's just through subclass lists, so that they don't add TOO much additional flexibility.

Say, 16 instead of 14. That, combined with the many great +cha races that come with some racial magic, would go a long way to helping out sorcerers.


This still doesn't fix some of the more serious design problems, like how unintuitive it can be to build one or how DM depended wild magic is, but I hope there aren't many of you who would strongly disagree that such a change might have made the sorcerer a more enjoyable class to play without stepping on anyone elses toes.

[Galithar]

I have a lot of experience with sorcerers in my games; I've built many of them, DM'd for several (one into the high levels, all starting out at the low levels), and frequently use them when building certain types of important powerful NPCs.

I've also seen them handled by a couple of different groups. Here's my two coppers:

1) Sorcerers can be REALLY strong, and can often contribute well to both combat and social situations.

2) People definitely have some legitimate gripes. I think that for any part of the game that might require only minor tweaking, or for which power is still plentiful, there will always be lots of people claiming that nothing is wrong, but from a game - design perspective, the sorcerer definitely has a few problems.

The main one, I think, is spell selection. Metamagic is really strong and feels quite fun and flavorful in play, and sorcerers are SUPPOSED to feel limited and focused on their particular spells. They were just simply overtuned for this. They need a small amount of additional spells known, even if it's just through subclass lists, so that they don't add TOO much additional flexibility.

Say, 16 instead of 14. That, combined with the many great +cha races that come with some racial magic, would go a long way to helping out sorcerers.


This still doesn't fix some of the more serious design problems, like how unintuitive it can be to build one or how DM depended wild magic is, but I hope there aren't many of you who would strongly disagree that such a change might have made the sorcerer a more enjoyable class to play without stepping on anyone elses toes.

The Sorcerer could do with a few more spells, but I don't think they are needed for the class to function. I am obviously pro-sorcerer so I'm trying to be as unbiased as I can, though I clearly will be a little still.

Just a minor detail, they get 15 spells known at max, not 14. Not much of a difference there though. I could get on board bumping that to 19, which is equal to a Warlock after accounting for their Mystic Arcanum. But I think 15 is viable, but definitely feels restrictive and I understand not liking that.

I don't find them unintuitive to build. And I've never had someone be able to explain it to me in a way that made sense to me. So I'm not saying they can't be, but I just don't see it. There are trap options in metamagic for sure, but there are other trap options in 5e. It's not like sorcerers are unique in this.
Distant spell is useful in about 1 out of 1 million campaigns. I could see removing it to streamline the class.
Careful I can see as misleading if people expect it to work like an evokers sculpt spell. Maybe add some fluff that directs players that it's best used with AoE debuffs instead of blasting spells?
Quicken falls into a weird place where people expect two leveled spells, which it doesn't do. This just requires reading the rules though. There is a general rule that prevents multiple leveled spells and this one doesn't break it. I could see adding wording to that effect, just for extra clarity? What it is good for is using spells like Shadow Blade, Levitate, Enervation, Dragon's Breath, or Maximilian's Earthen Grasp that require, or benefit from, using your action each turn and still be able to cast. Also for doubling down on cantrips, though this is most frequently done multiclass builds it's still a viable Sorcerer strategy.
Extended spell is another often trap option. It's not often I think doubling my spells duration would actually give me much benefit, though I'm sure there are niche cases.
Empowered is a decent option, but I personally dislike it because it doesn't do anything special. It adjusts the damage dealt. It just feels lame, although I've heard people say they've had awesome impacts like turning a 10 damage fireball into a 20+ damage one.
Subtle is campaign dependant, but extremely powerful. Social spells work better when undetected. Obviously social spells need to be relevant for this to be useful. It has a nifty secondary effect of helping about counterspells.
Twinned does what it says. It is the only way to cast something like Haste on multiple people. It can cause contention when spells like Dragons Breath come up, but I feel you need to ignore Crawford on this one and go by what the spell targets when cast. If I can't target more then one thing AT CASTING it's viable to twin. This is my opinion and ruling so YMMV with different DMs.

I feel I'm rambling here, but I just don't get why people struggle with this class. Could it be made easier? Yes, but I don't think everything needs to be simple and straight forward. Warlocks get crap a lot too because they need to be built properly. They have lots of potential, but everyone wants all casters to act the same. I know lots of spells and I throw them at all my problems. Clerics, Druids, and Wizards can all do this. Sorcerers and Warlocks can't. Warlocks have consistent DPR and Sorcerers have burst damage, controlling, manipulating, and buffing. But usually only 1 or 2 of those based on your build.

[Fnissalot]

I think an issue is that the sorcerer appears to be the most straightforward and easiest caster for new players when it probably is the least forgiving. If you do the wrong combination of choices, you will be punished down the line. No other class is as punished for a bad selection of spells/class features. Wizards can always inscribe more spells, bards have their inspiration that don't depends on their spells, divine casters can prepare spells on long rests, warlocks have invocations (and therefor EB), and martial classes can always just attack. Sorcerers' meta magic depends on the right spell selection and both are hard/impossible to change afterwards. The easiest fix to that is to allow switching 1 metamagic option whenever you level. Alternatively, you could remove the trap options (extended and distant) and give them for free to all sorcerers.

I don't think the following ideas are needed but I would enjoy the more thematic feel of my sorcerer. I think most of the meta magic options are uninspiring, and would like it if each subclass had a few choices for meta magic unique to them. Also, I would try to make the magic feel more innate. Make them use hit dice and con mods. I would add to flexible casting that you can expend hit dice on the end of short rests to gain sorcery point. Each hit dice gives you your con mod in sorcery points.

Sidebar on Wild Magic

Would it be too much then for Wild magic to simply remove the dm choice thing then? Is this following too strong?

Wild Magic Surge
Starting when you choose this origin at 1st level, your spellcasting can unleash surges of untamed magic. Immediately after you cast a sorcerer spell of 1st level or higher, you roll a d20. If you roll a 1, roll on the Wild Magic Surge table to create a random magical effect.

Tides of Chaos
Starting at 1st level, you can manipulate the forces of chance and chaos to gain advantage on one attack roll, ability check, or saving throw. Once you do so, you must finish a long rest before you can use this feature again.

When you roll on the Wild Magic Surge table at any time before you regain the use of this feature, you regain the use of this feature.

[patchyman]

Getting two resources to use for your main purpose of being a character is not poor design. It actually just ties the class together nicelyn in my eyes. You have to resources that do different things to your main feature, spell casting. One powers them, one alters them.

I get that you like sorcerers: I do too. But this is just wrong. Having to track two long rest resources is evidently more complicated than a single resource. Having conversion from one to another be asymmetrical is also complicated and discourages converting slots into points (which should be encouraged, since sorcery points is what distinguishes the class). Arguably, it also goes against the fluff of the class since it discourages casting your few spells flexibly. It makes managing resources more difficult for newer players. Plus, as designed, it encourages the impression that sorcerers can’t keep up with wizards who use Arcane Recovery and still use Metamagic.

I recommend using the spell points variant from the DMG for sorcerers. Sorcerers feel exactly as flexible as they are supposed to be, and no one complains that they end up with fewer slots than wizards.

[Galithar]

I get that you like sorcerers: I do too. But this is just wrong. Having to track two long rest resources is evidently more complicated than a single resource. Having conversion from one to another be asymmetrical is also complicated and discourages converting slots into points (which should be encouraged, since sorcery points is what distinguishes the class). Arguably, it also goes against the fluff of the class since it discourages casting your few spells flexibly. It makes managing resources more difficult for newer players. Plus, as designed, it encourages the impression that sorcerers can’t keep up with wizards who use Arcane Recovery and still use Metamagic.

I recommend using the spell points variant from the DMG for sorcerers. Sorcerers feel exactly as flexible as they are supposed to be, and no one complains that they end up with fewer slots than wizards.

More complicated does not equal poorly designed. I get that there are some people that can't handle anything more complex then 'I used a 2nd level slot', those people shouldn't be playing Sorcerers.

Having Asymmetrical conversion is a balancing factor, remove it and they become more powerful.
Should a level four spell cost the same as 3 level ones? Most people will tell you that single level 4 spell will have a greater impact. So you can create them from the same points, but you have a loss of power breaking them down. It also prevents the stacking is sorcery points in high level slots to quickly break in combat. Is this a problem in 5e? No, could they have been with symmetrical costs? Yes. But it probably wouldn't be a big deal if your table wants to make the symmetric. It increases the overall amount of metamagic useable in a day if they want to burn slots for it, not too big a deal but not really needed either.

Again I get that it is a little more complicated, but if you can't figure out the pattern of 1,2,3,4,5 matches 2,3,5,6,7 maybe play a wizard?

Also stating that flexible castings Asymmetrical cost discourages using spells flexibly is not seeing the forest for the trees. The flexibility if a Sorcerer is mainly from their metamagic.

Sorcerers CAN'T keep up with Wizards in number of casts and still use much metamagic. You get extra spells (which are equal or in favor of the Sorcerer at almost all levels). They aren't supposed to, they have the option to match them, or to power their metamagic. This isn't a design flaw though, it's an intentional balance.


I highly encourage using spell point variant as well, but only because Vancian casting is outdated in my opinion. But I recommend it for all casters, or none. Giving it to only Sorcerers increases their power while keeping everyone else's the same. You also have to realize that this steps all over the Warlocks schtick of always getting to cast at max level when everyone can do it.

[sophontteks]

Sidebar on Wild Magic

Would it be too much then for Wild magic to simply remove the dm choice thing then? Is this following too strong?

Wild Magic Surge
Starting when you choose this origin at 1st level, your spellcasting can unleash surges of untamed magic. Immediately after you cast a sorcerer spell of 1st level or higher, you roll a d20. If you roll a 1, roll on the Wild Magic Surge table to create a random magical effect.

Tides of Chaos
Starting at 1st level, you can manipulate the forces of chance and chaos to gain advantage on one attack roll, ability check, or saving throw. Once you do so, you must finish a long rest before you can use this feature again.

When you roll on the Wild Magic Surge table at any time before you regain the use of this feature, you regain the use of this feature.
No, this makes them quite a lot worse actually.

Remove the long rest on tides. Tides is the main power of a wild sorcerer, not the chance to surge. Surge with every spell, tides with every surge. With that the wild sorcerer actually becomes a competitive choice vs. the other archetypes (except storm, because storm is terrible. Someone save storm).


I get that you like sorcerers: I do too. But this is just wrong. Having to track two long rest resources is evidently more complicated than a single resource. Having conversion from one to another be asymmetrical is also complicated and discourages converting slots into points (which should be encouraged, since sorcery points is what distinguishes the class). Arguably, it also goes against the fluff of the class since it discourages casting your few spells flexibly. It makes managing resources more difficult for newer players. Plus, as designed, it encourages the impression that sorcerers can’t keep up with wizards who use Arcane Recovery and still use Metamagic.

I recommend using the spell points variant from the DMG for sorcerers. Sorcerers feel exactly as flexible as they are supposed to be, and no one complains that they end up with fewer slots than wizards.
What is better? Twinning haste on two people, or casting haste twice?
The answer is pretty obvious, right?
The sorcerer has effectively cast 2 spells in one round, and managed to concentrate on two spells at once.


The more interesting observation is the cost. It costs 3 sorcery points to twin haste, and a sorcerer can sacrifice a level 3 spell to gain 3 sorcery points. Since they have an extra pool of sorcery points on top of this, they are not at any disadvantage at all. They are actually at a pretty significant advantage here. All the spell slots in the world, and the sorcerer will still be concentrating on 2 spells to the wizards 1.

That is the best direct comparison, though I'd give empowered the medal for most efficient. For 1 metamagic they can turn a low-roll fireball into a big fireball, doubling, or even tripling their damage for only one sorcery point. 1 sorcery point, and you've effectively double-casted your fireball.

This same conversion is best seen with the shadow sorcerer's abilities though. Shadow sorcerers can cast an enhanced darkness for 2 sorcery points, and if Hound of Ill Omen was a spell, it'd be broken at third level. A bonus action summon that gives the enemy disadvantage vs. your spells is just incredible.

So for my shadow sorcerer I am converting almost all my first level spells into metamagic. I only have mage armor. At level 5 I would have 5 metamagic on top of this. So lets assume hounds and darkness are level 3 and 2 spells respectively and that I convert 3 level one spells into metamagic. Where do I stand vs wizards at level 5?
- With arcane recovery a wizard will have 4 level one spells, 3 level two, and 3 level three.
- With font my shadow sorcerer has 1 level one spell, 4 level two, and 4 level three.

This is just a raw conversion of two things that are not the same, but you can see that the sorcerer is not with so few spells as they may first seem to be.

[Dr. Cliché]

Having Asymmetrical conversion is a balancing factor, remove it and they become more powerful.
Should a level four spell cost the same as 3 level ones? Most people will tell you that single level 4 spell will have a greater impact.

I honestly don't see the issue with sacrificing 3 Lv1 spells to get a Lv4 spells.

Maybe the Lv4 spell will have a greater impact (I'd be surprised if it didn't - especially given that you're basically using 3 spell slots at once). However, doing this requires you to either spend 4 rounds converting spell slots while in combat before you can actually use that lv4 slot (since each conversion takes a bonus action and you need 1 for each of the 3 lv1 slots plus a 4th to make the lv4 slot). Or else you convert it well in advance and risk not having Lv1 slots for Shield if and when you need it (or else you upcast Shield, which is a waste of resources).

Put simply, I think you're vastly overestimating the impact of 1:1 conversion. Especially, I might add, on a feature that's supposed to be a benefit for the sorcerer.

[Galithar]

I honestly don't see the issue with sacrificing 3 Lv1 spells to get a Lv4 spells.

Maybe the Lv4 spell will have a greater impact (I'd be surprised if it didn't - especially given that you're basically using 3 spell slots at once). However, doing this requires you to either spend 4 rounds converting spell slots while in combat before you can actually use that lv4 slot (since each conversion takes a bonus action and you need 1 for each of the 3 lv1 slots plus a 4th to make the lv4 slot). Or else you convert it well in advance and risk not having Lv1 slots for Shield if and when you need it (or else you upcast Shield, which is a waste of resources).

Put simply, I think you're vastly overestimating the impact of 1:1 conversion. Especially, I might add, on a feature that's supposed to be a benefit for the sorcerer.

It is a benefit. It allows them to create spellslots from nothing, or in a bind create some sorcery points to fuel metamagic. It is an intentional design and balance decision. As I said in that same post, it wouldn't BREAK anything if you let Sorcerers have a 1:1 conversion (assuming you used the 1,2,3,4,5 cost and not the 2,3,5,6,7 cost) but it's starting a process of unbalancing them. Sorcerers have all the power they need, and as a fan of Sorcerers they DON'T need more, they shouldn't get more. A few minor tweaks at the table are fine.
Give some more spells known, let them convert 1:1 (using the low costs). These things are fine and can help the class play better at a table, but it's tanks specific because the class is generally balanced well. They give up something for the power they gain, and that's a good thing.

Edit: Also if I could I'd turn 3 level 1 slots into a fourth level slot every time. Sorcerers don't want to get hit, so I don't expect to use shield constantly. I use it when it's important, not because I want to never get hit. An extra casting of polymorph or banishment? I'll take that every day and twice on Sunday.

[Dr. Cliché]

It is a benefit. It allows them to create spellslots from nothing

Nope. It allows them to create spellslots very inefficiently from another precious resource that only recharges on a long rest.


It is an intentional design and balance decision.

I don't recall saying it was an accident. :smallconfused:


As I said in that same post, it wouldn't BREAK anything if you let Sorcerers have a 1:1 conversion (assuming you used the 1,2,3,4,5 cost and not the 2,3,5,6,7 cost) but it's starting a process of unbalancing them.

That's debatable, to say the least.


Sorcerers have all the power they need, and as a fan of Sorcerers they DON'T need more, they shouldn't get more. A few minor tweaks at the table are fine.
Give some more spells known, let them convert 1:1 (using the low costs). These things are fine and can help the class play better at a table, but it's tanks specific because the class is generally balanced well. They give up something for the power they gain, and that's a good thing.

Remind me - what does the Wizard give up to recharge some of his spell slots on a Short Rest?

[sophontteks]

I honestly don't see the issue with sacrificing 3 Lv1 spells to get a Lv4 spells.

Maybe the Lv4 spell will have a greater impact (I'd be surprised if it didn't - especially given that you're basically using 3 spell slots at once). However, doing this requires you to either spend 4 rounds converting spell slots while in combat before you can actually use that lv4 slot (since each conversion takes a bonus action and you need 1 for each of the 3 lv1 slots plus a 4th to make the lv4 slot). Or else you convert it well in advance and risk not having Lv1 slots for Shield if and when you need it (or else you upcast Shield, which is a waste of resources).

Put simply, I think you're vastly overestimating the impact of 1:1 conversion. Especially, I might add, on a feature that's supposed to be a benefit for the sorcerer.
Don't do it during combat???

[Galithar]

Nope. It allows them to create spellslots very inefficiently from another precious resource that only recharges on a long rest.



I don't recall saying it was an accident. :smallconfused:



That's debatable, to say the least.



Remind me - what does the Wizard give up to recharge some of his spell slots on a Short Rest?

Oh forgive my foolishness saying nothing, when they magical create them with an intangible "point".

You didn't say it was an accident. Not did I say that your did. I said that the thing you are complaining about was intentionally done to balance the class. You don't have to understand it though.

Not really. One way is objectively stronger then the other. A Sorcerer can already cast as many leveled spells as a wizard if that's what they choose to use sorcery points on. Giving a 1:1 conversion gives them MORE. That is an objective power increase and not subject to opinion. More spell slots=more power. Period.

They give up the ability to use metamagic. That's the trade. Wizards get Arcane recovery once per day, sorcerers get sorcery points that can create an equal (or greater) number of slots.
Sorcery point conversion is equal at level 2-5 superior at 6 and up.
Wizard gets 10 levels of spells from this at level 20 a Sorcerer can make those same 10 (two level 5 slots) with 6 points left (a level 4 slot)
At level ten the Sorcerer gets a level 5 and a level 2, compared to the Wizards level 5 slot.

So if you wanna get really nit-picky and look at raw numbers out of context of the full classes sorcerers actually get to cast more spells than a Wizard.

[Garfunion]

This thread has given me an idea. What if we convert the cost of meta-magic to sacrificing spell slots instead. Then give the sorcerer more spell slots and a way for them to down convert higher level spell slots into the lower level spell slots.
Making them closer in-line to their 3.x counterpart.

Could this create a better feeling sorcerer?

[Galithar]

This thread has given me an idea. What if we convert the cost of meta-magic to sacrificing spell slots instead. Then give the sorcerer more spell slots and a way for them to down convert higher level spell slots into the lower level spell slots.

Could this create a better feeling sorcerer?

I think you would have to allow the downgrading of spell slots during combat without an action for this to work well. Otherwise it requires too much advance planning, and the Sorcerer as written had a decent amount of that already.

I need a spell slot of first level to quicken or twin a cantrip, and I know I want to do that this combat, but I might want to twin haste so I needed an extra third level slot... I just feel like this would require more planning instead of less, which I feel is the intention, no?

Either way if you get something more concrete I would love to look at it and give you my opinion and crunch some numbers for you.

[Garfunion]

Sorcery (2nd level)
At 2nd level, you gain 2 spell slot levels which you can use to cast a sorcerer spell you know. You spend a number of these spell slots levels equal to the spell’s level you want to cast.
-You gain an additional spell slot level at every even level you gain in this class.
You regain all spent sorcery spell slot levels at the end of a short rest.

—— to be continued

[Galithar]

Sorcery (2nd level)
At 2nd level, you gain 2 spell slot levels which you can use to cast a sorcerer spell you know. You spend a number of these spell slots levels equal to the spell’s level you want to cast.
-You gain an additional spell slot level at every even level you gain in this class.
You regain all spent sorcery spell slot levels at the end of a short rest.

—— to be continued

First look to give you comparison in the spell level totals available.
Assuming 2 short rests per long rest that gives them 2 more spell levels them a wizard at level 2 and equal to a Warlock. Not too bad.
At level 6 though they get 28 levels worth of spells to the Wizards 22 and the Warlocks 18.
This gap continues to grow with each level. Warlock has a sudden jump at level 11 going from 30 spell levels to 51. While the Wizard is at 52 and the Sorcerer at 62.

Level 20 is 75 levels per day from a Warlock
The Wizard is at 94
And your Sorcerer revamp so far would be at 114

So the Sorcerer is ahead by a good margin, but I do believe that was intentional?

Edit: For reference, with all sorcery points going into spell slots a level 20 Sorcerer has access to 98 levels of spells.

2nd Edit: I only added the Sorcerers bonus spell slots 2 times and they start with them and refresh on short rests so it should have been 3 times. Which means it's 3 times as effective as Arcane recovery. I think they might need to be dialed back a bit, or have other balancing factors when you finish.

[Garfunion]

First look to give you comparison in the spell level totals available.
Assuming 2 short rests per long rest that gives them 2 more spell levels them a wizard at level 2 and equal to a Warlock. Not too bad.
At level 6 though they get 28 levels worth of spells to the Wizards 22 and the Warlocks 18.
This gap continues to grow with each level. Warlock has a sudden jump at level 11 going from 30 spell levels to 51. While the Wizard is at 52 and the Sorcerer at 62.

Level 20 is 75 levels per day from a Warlock
The Wizard is at 94
And your Sorcerer revamp so far would be at 114

So the Sorcerer is ahead by a good margin, but I do believe that was intentional?

Edit: For reference, with all sorcery points going into spell slots a level 20 Sorcerer has access to 98 levels of spells.

2nd Edit: I only added the Sorcerers bonus spell slots 2 times and they start with them and refresh on short rests so it should have been 3 times. Which means it's 3 times as effective as Arcane recovery. I think they might need to be dialed back a bit, or have other balancing factors when you finish.
That was a quicker response than I expected.

I’m still working on the restriction. As of right now a 18th level sorcerer will be able to cast four 9th level spells during the day(two short rest).

[Galithar]

That was a quicker response than I expected.

I’m still working on the restriction. As of right now a 18th level sorcerer will be able to cast four 9th level spells during the day(two short rest).

I would suggest keep to the standard of only letting them have 5th or lower slots from this, just like Arcane Recovery. You will seriously overpower high level casters (that are already super powerful) if you let the Sorcerer spam those really high level spells.

Edit: I'm really interested in people's ideas on Sorcerers even when I don't agree with them. I find the Sorcerer to be a highly underrated class and want to help people enjoy them as much as I do, even if they don't use the same rules for it as me, hence my many lengthy and quick responses in the thread. Plus I'm building a new Sorcerer (Sorlock technically) right now so I've really been digging back into their mechanics again.

[Garfunion]

I would suggest keep to the standard of only letting them have 5th or lower slots from this, just like Arcane Recovery. You will seriously overpower high level casters (that are already super powerful) if you let the Sorcerer spam those really high level spells.
That’s the thing, my metamagic requires the sacrifice of spell slots. My Sorcery feature is only meant to be used to cast spells. Twin metamagic “gums up the works”. I need to look at my feature from a different angle.

[Galithar]

That’s the thing, my metamagic requires the sacrifice of spell slots. My Sorcery feature is only meant to be used to cast spells. Twin metamagic “gums up the works”. I need to look at my feature from a different angle.

Allow the burning of multiple slots to activate metamagic. You want to twin an 8th level spell? Cast it from 8th level and then burn a 5th and 3rd level slot?

[Garfunion]

Allow the burning of multiple slots to activate metamagic. You want to twin an 8th level spell? Cast it from 8th level and then burn a 5th and 3rd level slot?
That just add another layer of complexity.

I’m going to have to take a step back and look at this tomorrow. Nice chatting with you.

[Fnissalot]

The 2,3,5,6, and 7 cost is the same as the spell point variant cost in the DMG. The cost equals to about 1+x*1.35 floored where x is the spell level. If you don't consider action economy, 2 level 1 spells are usually stronger than 1 level 2 spell. Scorching ray deals 50% more damage than chromatic orb. On average, finger of death deals 400% more damage than chromatic orb and a 7th level slot costs 5 times as much as a 1st level one. I would say those numbers are generally fair, the spells are "balanced" based on them.

So if, you should balance flexible casting. Do it the other way around, switch how much points you get from a spell slot instead of decreasing the cost of them. I don't say that the sorcerer needs it but that would be the logical way to do it.

Sidebar on Wild Magic

No, this makes them quite a lot worse actually.

Remove the long rest on tides. Tides is the main power of a wild sorcerer, not the chance to surge. Surge with every spell, tides with every surge. With that the wild sorcerer actually becomes a competitive choice vs. the other archetypes (except storm, because storm is terrible. Someone save storm).


Wait, you don't want surges to be random? That will be so frustrating for every one else. It will waste so much time to upkeep all the random stuff if you cannot cast magic properly enough that random things always happens. So you want this:
Wild Magic Surge
Starting when you choose this origin at 1st level, your spellcasting can unleash surges of untamed magic. Immediately after you cast a sorcerer spell of 1st level or higher, roll on the Wild Magic Surge table to create a random magical effect.

Tides of Chaos
Starting at 1st level, you can manipulate the forces of chance and chaos to gain advantage on one attack roll, ability check, or saving throw. Once you do so, you must finish a long rest before you can use this feature again.

When you roll on the Wild Magic Surge table at any time before you regain the use of this feature, you regain the use of this feature.
Yes, the tides are the competitive part but that amount of random is not competitive. To make it competitive, you would keep the surges on a 5% chance roll and say that you regain Tides on casting spells. Surges on every spell is not the way to go.

[TheUser]

I recommend using the spell points variant from the DMG for sorcerers. Sorcerers feel exactly as flexible as they are supposed to be, and no one complains that they end up with fewer slots than wizards.

Ok I'm going to hop in here again to address this.

Because it seems to me that the fine folks at WotC considered spell points for sorcerers. The whole premise of sorcery point conversion in the Font of Magic feature that turns sorcery points into slots and vice versa is already a virtual spell point system, except it's taxed!

Now this to me says that WotC tried spell points and found that without taxing the conversion sorcerers run away with the game at mid-high levels because they can spam high level spells better than any other class and pour on metamagic to be extremely turn efficient. Every other class has to ration their power and manage spell slots so that they don't use up high level slots ln trivial engagements. Not so with a spell points sorcerer. You're full throttle all day, busting out numerous high level spell slots without the worry of not having it when you need it.


After playing a sorcerer with the spell points variant I can confidently confirm it's overpowered.

Giving spell points cranks sorcerers up to 11.

[Fnissalot]

Ok I'm going to hop in here again to address this.

Because it seems to me that the fine folks at WotC considered spell points for sorcerers. The whole premise of sorcery point conversion in the Font of Magic feature that turns sorcery points into slots and vice versa is already a virtual spell point system, except it's taxed!

Now this to me says that WotC tried spell points and found that without taxing the conversion sorcerers run away with the game at mid-high levels because they can spam high level spells better than any other class and pour on metamagic to be extremely turn efficient. Every other class has to ration their power and manage spell slots so that they don't use up high level slots ln trivial engagements. Not so with a spell points sorcerer. You're full throttle all day, busting out numerous high level spell slots without the worry of not having it when you need it.


After playing a sorcerer with the spell points variant I can confidently confirm it's overpowered.

Giving spell points cranks sorcerers up to 11.

Well said! I agree!

They had a spell point system when they were released in the playtest material.

Also, people usually miss this section in the spell point variant rules page 288:
You can use spell points to create one slot of each level of 6th or higher. You can't create another slot of the same level until you finish a long rest.
Sure, you can blast 5th level spells but you don't get more that are higher than that.

[Dr. Cliché]

Don't do it during combat???

I literally covered that very option in the post you quoted.

Good comprehension skills there.



Oh forgive my foolishness saying nothing, when they magical create them with an intangible "point".

Forgive me for foolishly believing that you were arguing in good faith.




You didn't say it was an accident. Not did I say that your did. I said that the thing you are complaining about was intentionally done to balance the class. You don't have to understand it though.

Oops, another faux pas on my part. I forgot that the 5e designers were almighty gods whose every decision is completely infallible and to question them is blasphemy.

Excuse me whilst I open the Holy Player's Handbook and conduct my morning prayers.



Not really. One way is objectively stronger then the other. A Sorcerer can already cast as many leveled spells as a wizard if that's what they choose to use sorcery points on. Giving a 1:1 conversion gives them MORE. That is an objective power increase and not subject to opinion. More spell slots=more power. Period.

Do you at any point intend to argue against points I actually made? If not, perhaps you could just find a sock-puppet to argue with? That way you can have him create as many strawman arguments as you need.




They give up the ability to use metamagic. That's the trade.

What absolute tosh.

By this logic, there is no reason why sorcerers couldn't have 1:1 conversion of spell slots because they are giving up:
- The ability to freely recover spells on a short rest (without trading a different resource for them).
- The ability to learn more spells.
- The ability to learn additional spells as they find them.
- The ability to change prepared spells on a short rest.
- The ability to cast spells as rituals.


Wizards get Arcane recovery once per day, sorcerers get sorcery points that can create an equal (or greater) number of slots.

Except that (as above) wizards aren't trading anything for the slots they recover, whilst sorcerers can only get them by giving up another valuable resource. In fact, the very resource that powers their metamagic (which, according to you, is the only reason to use them over a wizard in the first place).



Wizard gets 10 levels of spells from this at level 20 a Sorcerer can make those same 10 (two level 5 slots) with 6 points left (a level 4 slot)

Given all the other advantages that wizards have over sorcerers, you'll forgive me if this isn't remotely impressive.

The goalposts also seem to have shifted about 2 miles but whatever.



So if you wanna get really nit-picky and look at raw numbers out of context of the full classes sorcerers actually get to cast more spells than a Wizard.

Those goalposts really aren't coming back, are they?

Once again, wizards being able to cast more spells than sorcerers wasn't a claim I made. I just called you out on the idea that every supposedly-beneficial feature had to have a big downside (for sorcerers the loss of points between conversions). I asked you what wizards gave up for their spell slot recovery mechanic, which requires no expenditure of resources on their part and is all upside. Yet all you've done is skirt around the issue entirely.

[sophontteks]

I literally covered that very option in the post you quoted.

Good comprehension skills there.

Your point depends on the 5 minute adventuring day. For some reason either the sorcerer needs to devote all their extra spells to metamagic before combat or during it.



Maybe the Lv4 spell will have a greater impact (I'd be surprised if it didn't - especially given that you're basically using 3 spell slots at once). However, doing this requires you to either spend 4 rounds converting spell slots while in combat before you can actually use that lv4 slot (since each conversion takes a bonus action and you need 1 for each of the 3 lv1 slots plus a 4th to make the lv4 slot). Or else you convert it well in advance and risk not having Lv1 slots for Shield if and when you need it (or else you upcast Shield, which is a waste of resources).

Put simply, I think you're vastly overestimating the impact of 1:1 conversion. Especially, I might add, on a feature that's supposed to be a benefit for the sorcerer.
You missed the most obvious use, using it between encounters.

[Nhorianscum]

By this logic, there is no reason why sorcerers couldn't have 1:1 conversion of spell slots because they are giving up:
- The ability to freely recover spells on a short rest (without trading a different resource for them).
- The ability to learn more spells.
- The ability to learn additional spells as they find them.
- The ability to change prepared spells on a short rest.
- The ability to cast spells as rituals.



Except that (as above) wizards aren't trading anything for the slots they recover, whilst sorcerers can only get them by giving up another valuable resource. In fact, the very resource that powers their metamagic (which, according to you, is the only reason to use them over a wizard in the first place).

He's right, Sorc clearly need to be able to drop a Draconic + empowered 5th level fireball or twinned polymorph 6 times a day at 7th level to compete with wizards 2 4th level slots!

[TheUser]

He's right, Sorc clearly need to be able to drop a Draconic + empowered 5th level fireball or twinned polymorph 6 times a day at 7th level to compete with wizards 2 4th level slots!

How about the sorcerers ability at level 3 to drop one sentence mind control that lasts 8 hours without anybody, including the charmed target knowing they cast a spell.

Edit: I'm agreeing with you. Spell points is so ridiculously OP

[Nhorianscum]

How about the sorcerers ability at level 3 to drop one sentence mind control that lasts 8 hours without anybody, including the charmed target knowing they cast a spell.

I too enjoy subtle spell.

It's even more fun when you jack the cleric list via Rav/Muti/DS and add in expertise.

[patchyman]

He's right, Sorc clearly need to be able to drop a Draconic + empowered 5th level fireball or twinned polymorph 6 times a day at 7th level to compete with wizards 2 4th level slots!

A 7th level sorcerer using the PHB rules, and maximizing his 4th level slots to cast twinned polymorph can cast twinned polymorph 3 times and have 2 SP left over. He converts his 4 1st level slots, 3 2nd level slots and 3 3rd level slots into 19 SP plus 7 SP equals 26 SP total. He can transform 2 4th level slots (12 SP) plus his 4 level slot for 3 Polymorph castings and spends 12 SP to twin them, leaving 2 SP left over.

A 7th level sorcerer using the DMG rules has 45 SP (38 + 7 SP). Casting a 4th level spell costs 6 SP, twinning it costs an extra 4 SP. He can cast 4 Twinned Polymorphs and has 5 SP left over.

Yes, the DMG rules provide a slight power boost over the PHB rules, but it is hardly OP. And at 7th level, a sorcerer using the DMG rules cannot cast 5th level spells.

[patchyman]

How about the sorcerers ability at level 3 to drop one sentence mind control that lasts 8 hours without anybody, including the charmed target knowing they cast a spell.

Edit: I'm agreeing with you. Spell points is so ridiculously OP

Are you suggesting that this is something a sorcerer using the DMG optional rules can do that a PHB sorcerer can't?

[Nhorianscum]

A 7th level sorcerer using the PHB rules, and maximizing his 4th level slots to cast twinned polymorph can cast twinned polymorph 3 times and have 2 SP left over. He converts his 4 1st level slots, 3 2nd level slots and 3 3rd level slots into 19 SP plus 7 SP equals 26 SP total. He can transform 2 4th level slots (12 SP) plus his 4 level slot for 3 Polymorph castings and spends 12 SP to twin them, leaving 2 SP left over.

A 7th level sorcerer using the DMG rules has 45 SP (38 + 7 SP). Casting a 4th level spell costs 6 SP, twinning it costs an extra 4 SP. He can cast 4 Twinned Polymorphs and has 5 SP left over.

Yes, the DMG rules provide a slight power boost over the PHB rules, but it is hardly OP. And at 7th level, a sorcerer using the DMG rules cannot cast 5th level spells.

7 Sorc points for a 5th level slot.

The rest is humorous exageration for the sake of making a point.

[patchyman]

More complicated does not equal poorly designed.

More complicated is not the only reason why people are saying sorcerers are poorly designed, and yes, more complicated without a good reason *is* an indicator of poor design.



Should a level four spell cost the same as 3 level ones? Most people will tell you that single level 4 spell will have a greater impact. So you can create them from the same points, but you have a loss of power breaking them down. It also prevents the stacking is sorcery points in high level slots to quickly break in combat. Is this a problem in 5e? No, could they have been with symmetrical costs? Yes. But it probably wouldn't be a big deal if your table wants to make the symmetric. It increases the overall amount of metamagic useable in a day if they want to burn slots for it, not too big a deal but not really needed either.

A single level 4 spell will have a greater impact, in certain circumstances. 3 level 1 spells will have more impact in different circumstances. The flexibility to switch easily between the two options is, in the fluff, the hallmark of the sorcerer: very few spells, the ability to do amazing stuff with the few spells they have.




Sorcerers CAN'T keep up with Wizards in number of casts and still use much metamagic. You get extra spells (which are equal or in favor of the Sorcerer at almost all levels). They aren't supposed to, they have the option to match them, or to power their metamagic. This isn't a design flaw though, it's an intentional balance.

Or would be, if wizards did not get a ton of other goodies on top of extra spells.



I highly encourage using spell point variant as well, but only because Vancian casting is outdated in my opinion. But I recommend it for all casters, or none. Giving it to only Sorcerers increases their power while keeping everyone else's the same. You also have to realize that this steps all over the Warlocks schtick of always getting to cast at max level when everyone can do it.

I disagree with this. First, I feel that giving spells points to everyone makes all of the caster classes too samey (which is why, to me, this is a sorcerer thing). Keeping the caster classes feeling different is also the reason I am against giving Sorcerers extra spells. Sorcerers should feel limited by their spell choice but should make up for it in maximum flexibility in how they cast. This is how they are different from wizards.

I also disagree that the SP variant steps on the Warlock's schtick. Warlocks have a lot of spells that aren't on the Sorcerer's spell list, the Pacts are extremely different from anything a Sorcerer can do, the customize-your-warlock-through-invocations is very different from anything any other class can do, and the individual Patrons (both fluff-wise and mechanics-wise) make Warlocks feel very different from other characters. In any event, SP would only step only step on a Warlock's toes if the Sorcerer were routinely using it to cast spells at max level. Different tables are different, but at my table, that would not be a good use of your SP.

[patchyman]

7 Sorc points for a 5th level slot.

The rest is humorous exageration for the sake of making a point.

The max slot you can create at 7th level is a 4th level slot.

[Nhorianscum]

The max slot you can create at 7th level is a 4th level slot.

Untrue. 10char

[sophontteks]

Are you suggesting that this is something a sorcerer using the DMG optional rules can do that a PHB sorcerer can't?
I think he's talking about subtle-casting suggestion.

I like to make stealthy sorcerers and subtle cast spells while hiding. This can end combat encounters before they even begin.
-Subtle cast Charm Person on the leader to turn a combat encounter into a welcome party.
-Subtle cast Phantasmal force or some illusions to scare them away.
-Subtle cast enemies abound to turn them against each other.

When no one knows magic is involved, the effects of these spells are much greater.

[TheUser]

The max slot you can create at 7th level is a 4th level slot.
False.
You can spend 7 sorc points to create a 5th level slot.
The only limit to your slot synthesis is the maximum sorc points you have which is determined by level.

What pro spell points people are conveniently ignoring is that the font of magic system has two major gates to power beyond the taxation

The first is that you must dip into your bonus action economy to start converting slots.

This means in combat it is a premeditated decision that could take several rounds.

The morw important decision is that there is no going back on the decision, or rather, if you decide you made a mistake you will taxed again undoing the decision.

This makes font of magic a calculated a premidated effort vs a completely risk free power boost.

You no longer need to make smart choices you just get to fling spells as you need them and whoever thinks that 4 twinned polymorphs with 2 remaining points vs 3 twinned polymorphs with 2 remaining points is clearly terrible at math

33% more of something is not a negligible difference at all. And when you start trying to smash out 5th level spells the difference is exagerated even more.