Two-in-one armor idea

[kamikasei]

So I've been reading A Song of Ice and Fire, and as my first exposure to fantasy set in the same approximate milieu as D&D which strives for some sort of authenticity, a lot of details have struck me. One of the main ones has to do with armor.

I don't know the historical accuracy of it, though it seems plausible enough, but what I was noticing was that any heavily-armored character in the books was wearing several layers of D&D armor types: plate worn over chain over leather, for example. This got me wondering whether such a thing could be represented in-game without causing headaches or imbalance, and whether anyone had tried this and found it to work well or ill. Essentially my idea would be to allow a fighter in full plate to remove the plate and be left in chain or leather, say, to get a night's sleep without leaving himself totally unprotected.

Does this sound like a decent, terrible, or pointless idea to anyone? Are there any obvious flaws in it where it would otherwise work okay? The obvious one that comes to mind is a rogue or other character who cares about ACP wearing something (mithral breastplate or the like) that can trade a point of AC to reduce penalties on the fly; for this reason I'd probably have the "under-armor" have higher ACP than usual for its class.

In a similar vein, would you ever let someone wear one full set of armor over another to achieve a similar effect?

[Azerian Kelimon]

Actually, full plate more or less IS several layers of armor. it even speaks about hardened leather in it's description.

[Jasdoif]

Armor bonuses don't stack.

Because of that, I would consider wearing one set of armor under the other to not be significantly different then simply carrying around a second set of armor. I'd make it a fluff detail, rather then imposing two sets of ACPs and the like on the character.

[Chaos Bringer]

I know there is a feat that allows you to rest in medium armor. The name currently eludes me.

[Moff Chumley]

Good idea. Magic aside, I'd rule that only the armor on top count, but both suits would count for crit confirmation rolls. Don't ask me about weight and generic penalties, I can't do those. [Shudder] :smalltongue:

(Edit): Triple Ninja! Arghhh! :smallfrown:

[Raolin_Fenix]

Indeed. I believe full platemail is described as metal plates padded with leather (of varying hardness), with chain-link protection over the joints to keep an otherwise vulnerable area protected while allowing freedom of movement.

[Jasdoif]

I know there is a feat that allows you to rest in medium armor. The name currently eludes me.Endurance (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#endurance).

[Stormcrow]

And just about every kind of armour has a gambeson (padded armour) under all of that so you don't get horrible pinching.

[tainsouvra]

Essentially my idea would be to allow a fighter in full plate to remove the plate and be left in chain or leather, say, to get a night's sleep without leaving himself totally unprotected. I allow this, to an extent, in my games. For example, if a breastplate armor was explicitly described as having padded leather covering the entire body as a part of it, removing the plate would leave you with padded leather.

Just be careful how far you allow this to be taken. In my mind, if it's not explicitly described as being there, it's not there--and the support structure for a full suit, regardless of the material involved, should rarely equal (and never surpass) a full suit made of the same material. For example, if a suit of plate was backed by leather, it should at most protect like leather armor--not studded leather, etc.

Additionally, I would recommend having masterwork/magical bonuses only work when the full suit is worn--partial suits are mundane at best, as they are missing critical elements.
In a similar vein, would you ever let someone wear one full set of armor over another to achieve a similar effect? No, never. This sounds like too much of a headache. What I do allow, and sometimes suggest, is carrying a backup set of armor that is comfortable to sleep/etc in if the character's main suit is too bulky and doesn't break down into a smaller suit.

[Fhaolan]

Armor is nominally assumed to be of multiple layers. Only a lunatic wears a maille shirt without a padded gambleson beneath. Plate usually has maille skirting and so on, and also is dependant on the padded gambleson. Brigandine is almost always worn over a maille hauberk, etc.

So technically, yes you can layer armor. However, only the most protective layer will be 'counted' in D&D. Otherwise you'll get people who want to layer three sets of plate over maille over leather and expect to get some kind of bonus for being a nit.

Now, the more curious question is piecemeal armor. Such as a single plate arm, maille leggings, and a full closed helm... you know, gladiator-style. This has been attempted in D&D several times over the editions, and it never really worked. You start getting into hit locations and other nonsense. D&D combat is too abstracted for piecemeal armor to make any effective difference. You're better just off just doing some kind of average value for the different stats, rounded off to the worse rating.

[Matthew]

I dunno, I thought it worked quite well. Hit Locations weren't needed, it was more like:

Sleeved Mail Hauberk + Mail Leggings = +5 AC
Sleeved Mail Hauberk = +4.5 AC
Mail Hauberk = +4 AC

[Fhaolan]

*blink* *thinks back* You know, I think you're right. I haven't looked at that in so long, I think I've confused it with a different RPG that had piecemeal armor. Or a homebrew system I had to deal with. I can't remember now.

Never mind, ignore me. :smallbiggrin:

[Matthew]

In all fairness, I think there was a parallel Hit Location System somewhere (probably Combat and Tactics) and I know Helmets had some sort of special case rule. Have to take another look...

[Roderick_BR]

AD&D had rules for custom armors (chest of a breastplate, with the arms of a chain mail...) in one of it's books (Fighter's complete handbook, I think).
Don't bother, they were a pain :smallwink:

[kamikasei]

I was less clear than I could have been; I think tainsourva followed best. My thinking was that, as it stands, a character wearing full plate (which includes layers of leather and chain) who wants to wear leather armor to rest because he doesn't have Endurance is obliged to take off his plate and put on a separate suit of leather. This seems a little odd. My concern is whether it'd be too much to, in effect, grant medium or heavy armor wearers a second, free set of lighter armor.

Say any armor from hide up could be stripped down to leather, for 2 AC and -1 ACP (or more; a slight penalty is certainly in order, I think). Further, let heavy armors be stripped down to chainmail, for 5 AC and -6 ACP. Magical, masterwork, or special material properties would only apply for the complete, fully assembled armor, but this would let paranoid players sleep easier, and perhaps help in situations where you could really do with shedding some ACP.

Does that sound workable? Of course it may be an option no one would bother to take advantage of...

[Matthew]

I do that for my AD&D Campaign. It's a bit easier because Padded Armour is +2 AC in that system, but it's perfectly workable:

Base Armour
Heavy Cloth: +1 AC
Padded Armour: +2 AC

Additional
Breast Plate: +2 AC
Mail Shirt: +2 AC
Scale Armour: +2 AC
Mail Armour: +3 AC

Splinted Armour: +4 AC
Banded Armour: +4 AC


Plate over Mail is another matter. You can't take off Plate Armour and expect to have a Mail Hauberk, as they just aren't layered that way. Half Plate *might* possibly be thought to be transition armour, in which case removing the plates would leave you with approximately Mail Armour.

[Azerian Kelimon]

Y'know, granting leather shouldn't be too hard. Just houserule that if you take off the metallic parts of full plate, you get a padded leather suit.

[Dausuul]

AD&D had rules for custom armors (chest of a breastplate, with the arms of a chain mail...) in one of it's books (Fighter's complete handbook, I think).
Don't bother, they were a pain :smallwink:

Dark Sun had rules for piecemeal armor, on the grounds that metal was so rare it would be more or less expected to see a fighter with a breastplate, a maille left sleeve, and studded leather on his right shin.

[bosssmiley]

In all fairness, I think there was a parallel Hit Location System somewhere (probably Combat and Tactics) and I know Helmets had some sort of special case rule. Have to take another look...

The old piecemeal armour system? That cropped up *everywhere* during Second Ed. IIRC it started in Oriental Adventures, made the jump to the Complete Fighter splatbook, then Dark Sun, then the Historical Reference books. I adapted it to several other RPGS (Cyberpunk2020, Fading Suns, WFRP1 homebrew) a while back and it works like a charm. :smallcool:

[Matthew]

I checked into it. There was a Hit Location system in the Complete Fighter's Handbook, but it was separate from Piece Meal Armour. However, there was some overlap, as apparently Characters gained no AC from wearing a Helmet!

You might be right that the Piece Meal Armour thing originated in OA. Mind, there was a Hit Location system in the OD&D Blackmoor supplement!

[Subotei]

Plate over Mail is another matter. You can't take off Plate Armour and expect to have a Mail Hauberk, as they just aren't layered that way. Half Plate *might* possibly be thought to be transition armour, in which case removing the plates would leave you with approximately Mail Armour.

I've always considered half plate to be as you describe. I visited Russia a few years back and went to the Kremlin Armoury - they had some fantastic suits on display from the (I think) 15th/16th century which were essentially very heavy chainmail with a harnesses holding plate armour over vital areas. Unfortunately my photos were rubbish, but this guy got a better shot

http://flickr.com/photos/mike68/365281343/

With this kind of setup you could certainly make a case for mail equivalent when the plate is removed. I guess it comes down to how you visualise the armour.

[AslanCross]

The Planar Handbook has sectioned armor, which can be reduced to light or medium armor for resting. It's +3 AC/+3 Max dex bonus in light mode, +5 AC/+2 Max dex in medium, and basically full plate in its complete form, except that it has an ACP of -5 instead of -6.

[Person_Man]

Well, if the party is at least 8th level, its pretty standard to use Rope Trick (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/ropeTrick.htm) when you rest. That fixes most of the problems with being woken up in the middle of the night.

There's also a magic property out there (I forget where) that allows your armor to turn into a piece of jewelry or mundane clothing, that you can switch back and forth as a standard action.

[Jayabalard]

Does this sound like a decent, terrible, or pointless idea to anyone? Are there any obvious flaws in it where it would otherwise work okay? Yes, the major flaw being that this is already how D&D armor works... when you wear armor, you are already wearing multiple layers.

[psychoticbarber]

I always rule that anybody wearing medium or heavy armor also has a gambison that they can sleep in. Padded Armor doesn't do much for AC, but it makes the fighter feel a little less naked when attacked in the middle of the night.

[Matthew]

I've always considered half plate to be as you describe. I visited Russia a few years back and went to the Kremlin Armoury - they had some fantastic suits on display from the (I think) 15th/16th century which were essentially very heavy chainmail with a harnesses holding plate armour over vital areas. Unfortunately my photos were rubbish, but this guy got a better shot

http://flickr.com/photos/mike68/365281343/

With this kind of setup you could certainly make a case for mail equivalent when the plate is removed. I guess it comes down to how you visualise the armour.

Nice pictures. Some of those are what I consider to be D&D 'Banded' or 'Splinted' Mail, but I think that there is a reasonable case for Half Plate as well. There might actually be some point to Half Plate if it could be treated as effectively three types of Armour. Definitions are subjective.

[Citizen Joe]

I had made the suggestion that you could strip off (or build up) layers of armor to drop to the next level of protection. So for example Full plate would be:
Full Plate -> Half Plate -> Breastplate -> Leather/Padded
and Chainmail would be:
Chainmail -> Chain Shirt -> Leather/padded

That lead to the suggestion that the typical Soldier would start with a Leather Cuirass, then get chainmail hauberk to throw over that (chain shirt), and then get the leggings later for more protection. When out in the field, they need to be able to rest without completely stripping off their armor. Knights could strip to Breastplate and have Endurance feat.

In a town (guards) they have barracks to sleep in with multiple shifts, etc. They can afford to sleep without armor. So for them, they start with the leather/padding, eventually get the breastplate, then add some for halfplate. Eventually they save up enough for the customization to get a full plate suit.

It also makes sense from the stand point of repairs. Chain links are fairly easy to repair, but you need a city's forge to repair plate armor.

[kamikasei]

Yes, the major flaw being that this is already how D&D armor works... when you wear armor, you are already wearing multiple layers.

Yes, multiple layers which all have to be treated as one indivisible unit, either worn or not - which is the point of my question: changing this.

[OneWinged4ngel]

Endurance (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#endurance).

When was the last time anyone ever took that, besides to get a PrC?

I think Restful armor enchant is only like +500g. Add that to your armor, and it suddenly becomes cozy to sleep in. I'd rather pay 500g than waste a feat.

[Techonce]

The fighters in my campaign usually take off their platemail and put on their mithril (k)night shirts.

[Tallis]

Balance wise I don't think it would be a problem to let someone strip off the outer layers of their armor and be left with some protection. I'd probably only give them the equivalent of padded armor from medium armor or studded leather from heavy. The layers of padding and chain that are part of a heavier suit are not likely to be reinforced in the same way as a suit of leather or chainmail armor would be, so they shouldn't offer the same level of protection as armor that is maent to be used that way.

[woc33]

Well, if the party is at least 8th level, its pretty standard to use Rope Trick (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/ropeTrick.htm) when you rest. That fixes most of the problems with being woken up in the middle of the night.

There's also a magic property out there (I forget where) that allows your armor to turn into a piece of jewelry or mundane clothing, that you can switch back and forth as a standard action.


I'm not sure what you are talking about, but as far as i remember the MiC has a property worth 2000 gp named "called" (could be 8000 gp though), it allows you to instantly teleport your armor to you (and on you) from anywhere as long as you are on the same plane as the armor.

[Machete]

There was something something thisledown suit in Arms and Equipment Guide that you could use it as the lining for your full plate and sleep in just it but it didn't provide any extra AC bonus.

[Darkforge]

Well as someone who owns a suit of half plate i'd say yes.

When going out in my armor I wear a padded gambeson, a leatherjack, a suit of chain, and then put on the parts of my half plate, breastplate, tassets, pauldrons, greaves, gauntlets, vambraces etc.

Therefore I can see no problem with having Half Plate->Breastplate->Chainmail->Leather->Padded.

I do aim to get fitted full plate at some point (but its too pricy for the moment) and having looked at it then you could easily have Full Plate->Breastplate->Leather->Padded but I'm not sure you could really fit Chainmail under proper Full Plate, but that depends on your style of plate really.

As for armor check penalties changing, leave them as they are because if you take off your plate + chain and only wear leather then you have to find somewhere to leave your armor (and the chance of getting your armor stolen more than negates the bonuses for reduced ACP - "oh, look someone left some MWK full plate just lying on the ground there...Yoink!")

I'm not sure about magical armors but I'd say that only the enchantment on the outer most armor works (just like even if you have 3 rings on, only 2 of them work)