Raise Dead on non-humanoid?

[igor140]

One of my players is wanting to raise a recently killed wolf using this spell. The description specifically says that it must be a humanoid... but I don't really see what this would hurt. The "wolf zombie" would have normal wolf stats, but I'd probably throw in poison and necrotic immunity.

Is there any reason reason NOT to allow this?

[Man_Over_Game]

One of my players is wanting to raise a recently killed wolf using this spell. The description specifically says that it must be a humanoid... but I don't really see what this would hurt. The "wolf zombie" would have normal wolf stats, but I'd probably throw in poison and necrotic immunity.

Is there any reason reason NOT to allow this?

Are you sure you're not reading Reincarnate or something? Raise Dead doesn't require a humanoid dead creature. Just a dead creature.

Or maybe you're referring to Animate Dead, which would actually create a zombie?

As for the spirit of the question, it really depends. Some DMs are strict on not allowing spells to do more than they say they do, as it opens a floodgate of possibilities. For some, creativity is more important than obeying the rules. For others, circumstantial exceptions can be made if only because of the specific dilemma (Yes, this is fine, but don't expect any other special exceptions).

If we are talking about Animate Dead, you're likely not breaking too much. The wolf is faster than most creatures, and it can knock enemies prone, but it's probably not as drastic of a change. I'd probably limit to only being allowed one wolf, though. Or rather, you get one "weird" zombie at a time with Animate Dead.

[sophontteks]

For reasons not to. You are letting them raise a wolf with bonus immunities. That's fine.

But what are you going to do when the try to animate more powerful creatures?

[MaxWilson]

For reasons not to. You are letting them raise a wolf with bonus immunities. That's fine.

But what are you going to do when the try to animate more powerful creatures?

Count it as a number of creatures equal to CR * 4? CR 1/4 wolf = 1 creature, can raise one with Animate Dead III, but a CR 2 Giant Constrictor = 6 creatures, requires Animate Dead VI.

That's how Animate Dead basically works in AD&D.

[igor140]

Are you sure you're not reading Reincarnate or something? Raise Dead doesn't require a humanoid dead creature. Just a dead creature.

Or maybe you're referring to Animate Dead, which would actually create a zombie?

I was indeed referring to Animate Dead... I didn't have it in front of me; sorry about the confusion. I also didn't have the zombie character sheet in front of me; I thought they were immune to both poison AND necrotic. In this case I would only give the wolf immunity to poison to be in line with the zombie.


But what are you going to do when the try to animate more powerful creatures?

I hadn't thought of that... the party is level 5, so I don't think a wolf zombie is out of line... maybe limit it to 1/4 wizard level, +1 for each spell slot level above 3rd? Does that make sense?

I think it's a moot point for this situation, considering this campaign is extremely short, we probably won't reach any level-ups, and the ONLY thing to fight is wolves... but I like playing around with the rules now that I know them well enough to begin poking at them.

[Great Dragon]

For the Animate Dead, watch out for Necromancer Wizards over 6th level.

Getting 2 wolves (just as the Necromancer gets for Humanoids) instead of one per casting is not really a problem, with the normal 4 Skeletons or Zombies controlled for 24 hr per casting. (I also require a 25 gp onyx per Undead)

Allowing Higher CR Skeletons or Zombies are a little more tricky.

Maybe instead of an extra High CR Undead Creature, grant options:
Higher Natural AC.
Multi-attack.
Flying Creatures affected, but half normal move. With another +1 slot granting full move.

With higher slots giving an extra option.
Like a Necromancer's 4th level slot could either affect a CR 1/2 instead of two 1/4.

I'll add some more examples later.

[Monster Manuel]

Count it as a number of creatures equal to CR * 4? CR 1/4 wolf = 1 creature, can raise one with Animate Dead III, but a CR 2 Giant Constrictor = 6 creatures, requires Animate Dead VI.

That's how Animate Dead basically works in AD&D.

That seems like a really elegant solution to the question of how to handle requests to animate something other than humanoids (which comes up all the time for me). I haven't thought through the implications; I suspect you still need a cap on max CR somewhere before it gets too insane, but I really like this.

[Great Dragon]

@Monster Manuel:
Was my idea too much for a Necromancer's Animate Dead? And should require Create Undead, instead?

[MagneticKitty]

I would probably say beasts are going to be pretty safe (no crazy powers). Just say no to all other types. Cr of beast much match the undead's cr.

I think the necromancer could use the slight buff if playing in a world where your friends shun you for condemning human souls by raising them. Thus could be a very PG acceptable "good" necromancer for the hero party. In other words, i'd allow it as a theme.. Like a necromancer who refuses to use humanoids...

Then just add zombie or skeleton templates... for example here are some I made.. And I didn't look but the books might have some templates too

Skeleton
(use beasts stats and actions)
Looses all flying capability due to decay.
Damage Vulnerabilities Bludgeoning
Damage Immunities Poison
Condition Immunities Exhaustion, Poisoned, immune to suffocating
Senses Darkvision 60 ft.
Loses any abilities that require having a stomach such as a frog's swallowing power


Zombie
(use beasts stats and actions)
Halve the speed of the beast. Looses all flying capability due to decay.
Damage Immunities Poison
Condition Immunities Poisoned, immune to suffocating
Senses Darkvision 60 ft.
Undead Fortitude. If damage reduces the zombie to 0 hit points, it must make a Constitution saving throw with a DC of 5 + the damage taken, unless the damage is radiant or from a critical hit. On a success, the zombie drops to 1 hit point instead.


Optionally you can let the cr stack.. But I would probably only do this if it was major theming for the class
Lv3 | 1 cr 1/4
Lv4 | 3 cr 1/4
Lv5 | 5 cr 1/4 (or one cr 1)
Lv6 | 7 cr 1/4 (or one cr 1)
Lv7 | 9 cr 1/4 (or one cr 2)

Or you could model it off of conjure animals, also a lv 3 spell...
Choose one of the following options for what appears: One beast of challenge rating 2 or lower Two beasts of challenge rating 1 or lower Four beasts of challenge rating 1/2 or lower Eight beasts of challenge rating 1/4 or lower
At Higher Levels: When you cast this spell using certain higher-level Spell Slots, you choose one of the summoning options above, and more creatures appear - twice as many with a 5th-level slot, three times as many with a 7th-level slot, and four times as many with a 9th-level slot.

(Except they use beast corpse instead of the thing appearing)

[Monster Manuel]

@Monster Manuel:
Was my idea too much for a Necromancer's Animate Dead? And should require Create Undead, instead?

Hi, Great Dragon. Your idea isn't too much, no. What I liked about MaxWilson's suggestion was how simple it was (CR*4, done). And it seemed to work well with the existing rules, since taking a 1/4 CR humanoid and zombifying it gives you one zombie, just like the current wording of the spell.

Like I said, I hadn't really given it much thought, outside of a first impression. Your point about the Lvl6 Necromancer Wizard's ability does have a big impact on balance once you get into higher CR creatures. And deciding on how to handle the special abilities of the zombified creature would also be key. You almost need to retrofit a whole set of templating rules onto the Animate Dead spell, that 5E got away from for a reason, and that makes it a lot more complex than CR*4 once you start to dig in.

If you have more examples of your ability-based method, I'd like to see them. It's more complex, but maybe there's no real way around that, although MagneticKitty's suggestion to limit it to certain creature types will certainly help. Humanoids, Beasts, what about Giants as a higher-level Animate Unlock?

[noob]

you could make people choose between having a single pet that is atypical (can have a cr depending on the slot of animate dead) and having the standard animate dead.

[Great Dragon]

Hi, Great Dragon. Your idea isn't too much, no.

What I liked about MaxWilson's suggestion was how simple it was (CR*4, done). And it seemed to work well with the existing rules, since taking a 1/4 CR humanoid and zombifying it gives you one zombie, just like the current wording of the spell.

Like I said, I hadn't really given it much thought, outside of a first impression. Your point about the Lvl6 Necromancer Wizard's ability does have a big impact on balance once you get into higher CR creatures. And deciding on how to handle the special abilities of the zombified creature would also be key. You almost need to retrofit a whole set of templating rules onto the Animate Dead spell, that 5E got away from for a reason, and that makes it a lot more complex than CR*4 once you start to dig in.

If you have more examples of your ability-based method, I'd like to see them. It's more complex, but maybe there's no real way around that, although MagneticKitty's suggestion to limit it to certain creature types will certainly help. Humanoids, Beasts, what about Giants as a higher-level Animate Unlock?

Well, for more options, I'd need to do more research.

As for my idea, it's similar to MagneticKitty's.
Start with creating one CR 1/4 at 3rd level slot. CR 1/2 for 4th slot. CR 1 for 5th slot.
CR 2 for 6th slot. CR 3 for 7th slot. CR 4 for 8th slot and CR 5 for 9th slot.

Now, sacrifice a higher slot for a CR that is two levels less for a bonus ability.

Like: use a 9th slot to get a CR 3 creature with Improved Natural Armor.
(Or CR 3 with Flight at half normal speed)

A Necromancer would get a CR 4 with one of those options.
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For Giants, I'd use the Skeleton Minotaur as the base.