Sorcerer vs. Witch?

[BlueWitch]

Who do you think is stronger? Both are Tier 2 but does either edge out the other?

Sorcerers get Bloodline powers, but Witches get Hexes.

What do you think?

[Kurald Galain]

Sorcerer has the better spell list.

The key to understanding witches is that spells are stronger than hexes; this is why you get limited spells and infinite hexes.

[Eldonauran]

Personally, I value versatility over raw power. Versatility is a kind of strength. So, I'd pick the Witch every time.

[Kurald Galain]

Personally, I value versatility over raw power. Versatility is a kind of strength.

It strikes me that the sorcerer's better spell list means more versatility; whereas the witch's infinite hexes represent raw power. So sorcerer is more versatile than witch.

[Calthropstu]

I'd go sorcerer. And, if you allow dsp content in PF, it reopens the psychic reformation sorcerer combo turning sorcerers into the penultimate t1 powerhouse.

[Gallowglass]

I agree. The sorcerer list is just wider than the witch list. Even if the sorcerer is limited compared to the witch in what spells they can actually use, they have a better list from which to create their subset. The fact that their subset is smaller than the witch's subset does not compensate for that.

[Florian]

Functional or theoretical?

Functional, the Witch is brutally powerful in the early half of the game, when hexes and their at will nature overshadow spells in any relevant way. A well build Cackling Witch might possible function without having to use any spell up to 6th level or something.

Theoretically, the Source/Wiz spell list wins out over the Witch spell list.

[BWR]

Sorcerer is better in pretty much every way. That doesn't mean you can't have fun playing a witch, nor that you can't make a worse sorcerer than an average witch.
Play what seems more fun.

[icefractal]

Sorcerer at the high end, but maybe Witch at the low end. Bloodlines have some really nice abilities, but many don't fully kick in until higher levels, and at low levels their spell list edge isn't as much.

[Psyren]

I personally put Witches at T1, especially once you take Patrons into account. The ability to change your spell loadout based on what you can expect the next day is very powerful (particularly given that divinations let you check up on tomorrow before going to bed), and the Witch list - while weaker than the sorcerer list - is still strong enough to handle just about anything in the Bestiary.

That doesn't mean that Sorcerers are weaker, especially in practice - personally, I view the difference between T1 and T2 as being more academic than a true gap, similar to the difference between T3 and T4. The ability to change your allotment day to day may not even matter for some campaigns, where you end up picking the same spells every day regardless and relying on consumables for the rest. But the fact remains that Witches can do that and Sorcerers can't (normally). It's an avenue of approach, rather than a power differential.

[Gnaeus]

I think witch hexes are significantly underrated.

They do not provoke. They ignore SR. They do not require concentration checks. You can use a hex in a grapple. Or while silenced. Ignoring SR means they bypass magic immunity. Some, like evil eye, are no save just suck.

Not that any of those things are impossible for sorcerers to acheive. But they aren’t trivial either. I’ve watched witches drop debuffs from inside a dragon’s jaws. I’ve watched them trivialize over CR encounters with just a couple of well placed hexes.

And on top of that, their list is only marginally worse than the sorcerer list. Looking just at level 4, I see summon monster 4, solid fog, scrying, enervation, D Door, confusion, black tentacles, fey form, death ward. I wouldn’t think a Sorc 9 with D Door and Summon monster 4 has chosen poorly, and by level 9 the witch has a minimum of 4 of those, and a couple of 5s for good measure. Before patron. Don’t like 4? Fine. They have a handful of spells that hit the “have to consider it” list for any sorcerer at every level. Fort and will save or loses. Polymorph effects. Heals and resurrection. Travel effects like fly, D Door and teleport. Summon monster and all its potential spells. BFC like black tentacles and cloudkill. Divinations like scrying and see invisible. Buffs like heroism. Even some decent blasts like lightning bolt and chain lightning (although sorcerers have a clear edge in blasting) It’s fully a T1 list at every level. And you get higher level spells before the sorcerer to boot.

[Eldonauran]

It strikes me that the sorcerer's better spell list means more versatility; whereas the witch's infinite hexes represent raw power. So sorcerer is more versatile than witch.In theory, a sorcerer has a greater potential than a witch for RAW power and the greater access to spells makes them more versatile ... until you put them down on paper and their selection is done. Favored class bonuses for more spells help offset this a bit more for the sorcerer towards the end, but as I said, I will pick the witch every time. I'd even pick a spontaneously casting witch (like the ley-line guardian) over the sorcerer, merely because of the infinite usage of hexes.

In the end, even if the power levels and versatility end up dead even, or slightly in favor of the sorcerer, it wouldn't change my mind. I'd only pick sorcerer if it fit the character concept better. Personal taste rules in that regard. (To be clear, I VASTLY prefer spontaneous casting)

[Psyren]

I like both, and I have to admit that prepared is more palatable when I have a secondary ability (like Hex) that I don't have to keep close track of. So I enjoy Witches and Sorcs equally.


You can use a hex in a grapple. Or while silenced.

Note however that Cackle specifically has a verbal component per the FAQ.

Otherwise, I agree with everything you posted.

[ShurikVch]

Isn't Witch just an ACF to Sorcerer?
So, like with most ACF - you get some, you lose some...

[CharonsHelper]

Raw power - probably sorcerer.

But I like that the witch gets access to some healing style spells. And really - how often does the difference is power really matter? It's not a PvP game - they both fill the arcane slot in a party nicely.

Plus - when my witch went through the desert - it opened up SO MANY puns! (And I was already using a bunch - like - "Which way should we go? MY WAY!)

[Eldonauran]

Plus - when my witch went through the desert - it opened up SO MANY puns! (And I was already using a bunch - like - "Which way should we go? MY WAY!)

Ha! "Which way should we go?" Why does everyone keep asking me!? I don't have ranks in survival!

[Kurald Galain]

They do not provoke. They ignore SR. They do not require concentration checks. You can use a hex in a grapple. Or while silenced. Ignoring SR means they bypass magic immunity.
Ignoring SR is a good point. The rest are interesting but just don't happen all that often; in all campaigns I've seen PCs don't get grappled or silenced on a regular basis.

While the witch is certainly a good class, I've seen several players forget about their spellcasting and rely only on hexes; that's not nearly as effective as using both.

[Dimers]

Ignoring SR is a good point. The rest are interesting but just don't happen all that often; in all campaigns I've seen PCs don't get grappled or silenced on a regular basis.

Oh, man, I want to play in those games. The ones I've been in, there's so much grappling that you don't bother upgrading your weapon or armor for the first several levels -- you're better off saving all your cash until you can afford a ring of free movement. Silence happens more often than I'm comfortable with, but that's just over-caution. Grappling is eeeeeeverywhere.

@ OP: If I'm building a high-level character without having to slog through the lower levels, I prefer the toys sorcerers can get. The witch is much more fun until 10th, 12th, somewhere around there.

[Gnaeus]

Ignoring SR is a good point. The rest are interesting but just don't happen all that often; in all campaigns I've seen PCs don't get grappled or silenced on a regular basis.

I don’t know about often necessarily. But I have seen witches use hexes to save themselves or continue to contribute when grappled or threatened on multiple occasions. That is multiple times more than I have seen DMs allow the more high op/TO sorcerer tricks that get so much love on forums, like multiple free planar bindings replacing party members, or allowing entire books of explosive runes to detonate at once one shooting bosses. Hexes are a practical, teamwork oriented solution to common challenges that doesn’t get a book thrown at your head when you try it. No one tries to claim that using hexes gets you murdered by outsiders.

To put it another way, I have seen little debate that the witch casting chassis (unlimited spells known, new spell levels on odd levels) beats the sorcerers chassis. I would flat out rather have a witch with hexes than a witch with the sor/wiz list.