How would you, as a religious cleric, write your thesis?

[understatement]

If you don't feel like reading the whole thing, jump to bottom*

With that brand of title established, I'd just sprinkle in some RP for flavor:

you are a LG dwarf clericstudent of Thor. You've been tasked by your teacherThor to write a 25-word thesis to a fellow student to persuade him of the secrets of the Dark One and the Snarl in an endeavor to save the world. Your classmate happens to be a LE goblin cleric. You are sending to him because a) Sending is a lower spell level for clerics than for wizards, so you can prepare it more and b) you're the one with firsthand knowledge of what exactly the Snarl entails.

What you know about him:
He's LE (or Evil, at the very least) and sacked Azure City
He is Xykon's right-hand goblin
He one-shotted Hinjo
He doesn't know what you know from your god
He has access to the ritual that can transport the Snarl

What he knows about you:
he's probably only seen you once in this strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0113.html)
he practically only recognizes Greenhilt as the face of the OOTS; the rest he couldn't care less

What you don't know about him:
his sunk-cost fallacy mindset
Team Evil's contentious relationship
he and Xykon are at very different goals

What he doesn't know about you:
your meaty development with the rest of the Order

Grading rubric includes:
Dark One
Snarl
4-color quiddity
TDO won't survive to the next cycle from the belief/worshipper/dedication pyramid
Enough to hook in a response

--------


*In short, how would you, as Durkon, send a Sending(s) to Redcloak to agree on some form of alliance for sealing the rift?

[KorvinStarmast]

Your title is asking for a thesis, but the question asks for either an abstract (usually 200 words) or even 'a sales pitch' given that the limit is 25 words. Also "an elevator pitch" in terms of constraints.


I can help you and the Dark One. The gate is not what it seems. Let's work together, or the world and your deity end.

That's 25 words.

If nothing else, it probably gets his interest up. Quiddity is advanced material, and the topic of a later sending.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

The gods voted to destroy the world to stop the Snarl. If they do, yours will starve before the next world is ready. Let’s meet

[Jasdoif]

"Tired of us fighting? Let us meet to show how only YOU can prevent Snarl-mageddon; and then save the world and the Dark One, too."

[Peelee]

Deities hate him! Find out how this dwarven cleric figured out how to get them to cooperate with The Dark One with one simple trick!

[Riftwolf]

Deities hate him! Find out how this dwarven cleric figured out how to get them to cooperate with The Dark One with one simple trick!

Would the buzzfeed link count as one word for Sending?

[The_Weirdo]

Hi, Redcloak. Ever since I saw you, with your green skin and your fangs, it was a critical hit in my feels. Let's meet.

[Peelee]

Hi, Redcloak. Ever since I saw you, with your green skin and your fangs, it was a critical hit in my feels. Let's meet.

Redcloak's reply: Local singles are available in your area! Sendings available for only one hundred gold for the first scroll, and seventy gold for every additional scroll!

[The Pilgrim]

We destroyed Xykon. Collaborate with me or eat lightning hammer. Perhaps next bearer of Crimson Mantle will be more reasonable. I have five words left.

[Peelee]

We destroyed Xykon. Collaborate with me or eat lightning hammer. Perhaps next bearer of Crimson Mantle will be more reasonable. I have five words left.

https://i.imgflip.com/300rig.jpg

[CriticalFailure]

"Snarl destroyed millions of worlds. Dark One won't survive recreation time if Snarl gets loose. Cannot permanently trap Snarl without him. Thor requests negotiations."

[The Pilgrim]

https://i.imgflip.com/300rig.jpg

It's difficult to word a reply when you have a Hammer of Thunderbolts stuck in your mouth.

[Lvl45DM!]

The Dark One and the other gods can save the world from the Snarl, Thor wants to deal and thinks his name is totally metal.


OR

Thor likes the Dark One and wants to be friends does he like him please tick yes or no

[Wizard_Lizard]

You can make sending lnger by neglecting soaces.
make everything one word.

[Peelee]

It's difficult to word a reply when you have a Hammer of Thunderbolts stuck in your mouth.

I don't quite think the Sending would be necessary in that instance....

[The Pilgrim]

I don't quite think the Sending would be necessary in that instance....
Dwarves are practical people. A proper dwarf shouldn't waste resources in a sending spell for an enemy unless he makes damn sure the receiver is going to Listen.

[Fyraltari]

It's difficult to word a reply when you have a Hammer of Thunderbolts stuck in your mouth.

https://images-cdn.9gag.com/photo/axVOyGn_700b.jpg

He's what, half a dozen levels above Durkon?

[hamishspence]

4 levels. He recently turned 17th level, and Durkon is now 13th level.

That said, he may have levelled since then, in Monster Hollow.

[Kish]

I am bemused that the Pilgrim is pushing "forget the whole diplomacy thing, just beat the greenskin into submission or death" so hard.

There are lots of people on this forum I would have expected that from, but not previously him.

[The Pilgrim]

https://images-cdn.9gag.com/photo/axVOyGn_700b.jpg

He's what, half a dozen levels above Durkon?

Redcloak is a primary spellcaster cleric, he is zero focused in melee. Durkon is the opposite. O-Chul managed to overpower him naked and with nothing but an improvised weapon, by catching him by surprise*. A Durkon backed by the rest of the Order would be able to overpower him easily.

Of course the scenario of "the Order destroys Xykon then overpowers Redcloak and forces him to listen" doesn't makes for a great story (the one that would is Durkon's proposal driving a wedge in the already measly alliance between Redcloak and Xykon). But if we are discussing what would hypotetically be Durkon's best scenario, in my oppinion this one is it. Specially taking into considetation that, from the Order's perspective, Redcloak is nothing but Xykon's subdued lackey (see the fight at the dream sequence).

* By the way, it is interesting that Redcloak is now drawn wearing heavy armor (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1038.html), until now he had been wearking just a robe. Perhaps after the affair with O-Chul he has decided to invest more in physical protection.

[Fyraltari]

Redcloak is a primary spellcaster cleric, he is zero focused in melee. Durkon is the opposite. O-Chul managed to overpower him naked and with nothing but an improvised weapon, by catching him by surprise*. A Durkon backed by the rest of the Order would be able to overpower him easily.

Of course the scenario of "the Order destroys Xykon then overpowers Redcloak and forces him to listen" doesn't makes for a great story (the one that would is Durkon's proposal driving a wedge in the already measly alliance between Redcloak and Xykon). But if we are discussing what would hypotetically be Durkon's best scenario, in my oppinion this one is it.

* By the way, it is interesting that Redcloak is now drawn wearing heavy armor (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1038.html), until now he had been wearking just a robe. Perhaps after the affair with O-Chul he has decided to invest more in physical protection.

Redcloak has always been wearing armor. He mentions it back in Start of Darkness.

[Tvtyrant]

Use German or Dutch, make the 25 words a few hundred characters long by combining all of the nouns. TheDarkOneHopeoftheWorldduetoHisQualia needs to help stop the Snarltrappedbythedifferentiatedqualiaofdivinepanth eons.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Redcloak is now drawn wearing heavy armor (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1038.html), until now he had been wearing just a robe.

He might have been wearing a robe because he was in a secure tower, in the middle of his city, on a regular day, and armour is uncomfortable as daily wear. Druids-jumping-from-potted-plants notwithstanding.

Grey Wolf

[The Pilgrim]

I am bemused that the Pilgrim is pushing "forget the whole diplomacy thing, just beat the greenskin into submission or death" so hard.

There are lots of people on this forum I would have expected that from, but not previously him.

"To a man dwarf with a hammer, all problems looks like nails."

[hamishspence]

He might have been wearing a robe because he was in a secure tower, in the middle of his city, on a regular day, and armour is uncomfortable as daily wear. Druids-jumping-from-potted-plants notwithstanding.


In SoD, Redcloak, when asked "why are you called that" responds sarcastically "because I wear black armour" and he looks exactly as he does in all the books prior to this one.

It might be lighter than his current suit though. Leather rather than plate.

[The Pilgrim]

In SoD, Redcloak, when asked "why are you called that" responds sarcastically "because I wear black armour" and he looks exactly as he does in all the books prior to this one.

It might be lighter than his current suit though. Leather rather than plate.

Didn't noticed that before. Well, hooray for the Art Upgrade.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

In SoD, Redcloak, when asked "why are you called that" responds sarcastically "because I wear black armour" and he looks exactly as he does in all the books prior to this one.

It might be lighter than his current suit though. Leather rather than plate.

Yes, I don't disagree. I'm just saying O-Chul might have caught him in a day when he was really just wearing robes because he wasn't kitted out for adventure.

Grey Wolf

[understatement]

I think he -- along with Xykon -- is not given any melee attributes because you'd want your biggest, baddest villains to be somewhat detached from the thick of the conflict. (previously the comic also has had its share of melee villains) You're not going to get Xykon attempting to use paralyzing touch at every turn; as a BBEG he's flying and throwing down spells. Same with Redcloak. You want the heroes to reach the villains through whatever they throw at you, not the other away around.

For my hypothetical Sending:

Cleric of Thor of Order of the Stick. Have info on Dark One and the Snarl's rifts. Dark One won't survive this world destruction. Coordinate?

[CriticalFailure]

Pretty sure he was wearing his usual outfit (armor, though the shoulder pads aren't there in the old art) when O-Chul stabbed him.

I wonder if it would occur to said dwarf cleric to mention how there have been many worlds. Redcloak would be likely to believe the other gods conspired to hide it and it's convincing evidence that there is more going on than TDO understands.

[Goblin_Priest]

Roses are red
violets are blue
your plan will end up with the dark one dead
I want to save goblins and you do too.

[Goblin_Priest]

Redcloak is a primary spellcaster cleric, he is zero focused in melee. Durkon is the opposite. O-Chul managed to overpower him naked and with nothing but an improvised weapon, by catching him by surprise*. A Durkon backed by the rest of the Order would be able to overpower him easily.

Of course the scenario of "the Order destroys Xykon then overpowers Redcloak and forces him to listen" doesn't makes for a great story (the one that would is Durkon's proposal driving a wedge in the already measly alliance between Redcloak and Xykon). But if we are discussing what would hypotetically be Durkon's best scenario, in my oppinion this one is it. Specially taking into considetation that, from the Order's perspective, Redcloak is nothing but Xykon's subdued lackey (see the fight at the dream sequence).

* By the way, it is interesting that Redcloak is now drawn wearing heavy armor (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1038.html), until now he had been wearking just a robe. Perhaps after the affair with O-Chul he has decided to invest more in physical protection.

Redcloak probably dumped str. Plus, goblins get: -2 Strength, +2 Dexterity, -2 Charisma.

His con and dex might not be all that fantastic either. Heck, aside from having the minimum wisdom for casting lvl 9 spells, we don't have any other indications of particularly high stats in any ability. Perhaps above average intelligence, but that could be 14 for all we know.

[Emanick]

Redcloak probably dumped str. Plus, goblins get: -2 Strength, +2 Dexterity, -2 Charisma.

His con and dex might not be all that fantastic either. Heck, aside from having the minimum wisdom for casting lvl 9 spells, we don't have any other indications of particularly high stats in any ability. Perhaps above average intelligence, but that could be 14 for all we know.

Goblins may not have a Strength penalty in the OOTSverse. In 3.5, most Small races have Strength penalties, and goblins are Small, so they wind up weaker than humans on average. However, a Medium-sized goblin lacks that reason for having a Strength penalty.

For that matter, OOTSverse goblins may lack a Dexterity bonus, too, as higher Dexterity is often coupled with smaller size.

[understatement]

He's able to lift/push the MITD in the box onto some kind of wagon (can't remember) during the circus escape.

His INT should be equal or higher than Xykon's. From the way he plans out stuff, I'm getting the vibe of being at least as smart as Haley or Roy.

He tanks a fair amount of punishment in Azure City throne room.

I'm guessing he dumped Dex.

[Wizard_Lizard]

He might have above average CHA too.

[Riftwolf]

He might not have a dump stat; certain characters have across-the-board average/above average stats with some stats higher than those (Roy, Miko, probably Tarquin). Oots doesn't run by a points buy system; it's probably luck of the dice, and some players get much better stats than others (hooray for inequality!)
Redcloak might have average stats across the board, an 18/19 in wisdom, and still suck in melee. Not because of any deficiency in his character sheet, but because of his character. He relies on his divine powers rather than physical exertion. I mean, he doesn't even carry a weapon...

[CriticalFailure]

I kind of got the impression that Redcloak's physical stats were all average/mediocre/dump (probably strength dump) and his mental stats were all pretty good, with wisdom obviously being much better than all other stats as he casts from that. To me he seems to display above average charisma and intelligence (particularly intelligence) and his general abilities in the comic center around intelligent strategy, leadership, and using his own/Team Evil's knowledge to maximum effect. To be fair, hobgoblin society appears to be pretty obedient, but I still think leadership comes into play. Whereas he doesn't display any indication of any of his physical stats being particularly noteworthy.

[Wizard_Lizard]

I kind of got the impression that Redcloak's physical stats were all average/mediocre/dump (probably strength dump) and his mental stats were all pretty good, with wisdom obviously being much better than all other stats as he casts from that. To me he seems to display above average charisma and intelligence (particularly intelligence) and his general abilities in the comic center around intelligent strategy, leadership, and using his own/Team Evil's knowledge to maximum effect. To be fair, hobgoblin society appears to be pretty obedient, but I still think leadership comes into play. Whereas he doesn't display any indication of any of his physical stats being particularly noteworthy.

He managed to convince a whole bunch of hobgoblins to walk into certain death. Pretty hgh charisma.

[Kish]

You don't need an epic-level Diplomacy roll to get people to Fanatic if they're already fanatical.

[Gluteus_Maximus]

You don't need an epic-level Diplomacy roll to get people to Fanatic if they're already fanatical.

...Unless they're fanatical of not being a fanatic of he who doesn't think he needs epic-level Diplomacy rolls?

[KorvinStarmast]

In less than 25 words

Redcloak. I have your niece. Meet at Kraagor's gate. She walks free if you discuss our future in good faith.

[understatement]

In less than 25 words

Redcloak. I have your niece. Meet at Kraagor's gate. She walks free if you discuss our future in good faith.

Too bad they can't force her to cast a scroll to contact him to prove they've got her alive. She's like the Martha of the OOTSverse.

-

On a side note, I think RC's charisma is most apparent in his speech in founding Gobbotopia -- it's in the same vein as the pre-battle speeches Elan dishes out or the Godsmoot plea Roy gives, in that it does require some persuasive/forceful personality to say that in front of strangers. I don't think it's something V or Durkon could pull off (unless the circumstance warranted it).

[Peelee]

In less than 25 words

Redcloak. I have your niece. Meet at Kraagor's gate. She walks free if you discuss our future in good faith.


Too bad they can't force her to cast a scroll to contact him to prove they've got her alive.

Redcloak's reply: "You know Scrying is just 5th level, right? Short version, no you don't. Long version, no you don't and also I'm going to kill you."

[Fyraltari]

In less than 25 words

Redcloak. I have your niece. Meet at Kraagor's gate. She walks free if you discuss our future in good faith.

Why would Recloak care more for her than he cared for her father?

[understatement]

Well, he did b*tchslap a paladin's face to bloody chunks when his brother was threatened. Granted, that was way before he became a true villain, but if Xykon doesn't know about it (and shouldn't, since only RC can see the sending) and it doesn't interfere with the Plan...I mean, one of the many reasons he wages war on Azure City was for his mom.

edit: spelling

[The Pilgrim]

In less than 25 words

Redcloak. I have your niece. Meet at Kraagor's gate. She walks free if you discuss our future in good faith.

I like how you think.

[Emanick]

Why would Recloak care more for her than he cared for her father?

He wouldn’t, but the situations aren’t strictly comparable, because Redcloak doesn’t necessarily give up anything by agreeing to meet Durkon. It’s a risk, but not a risk on the level of betraying Xykon.

Which is not to say that I endorse the plan of taking a hostage just to get Redcloak to meet. It seems like a great way to make him more hostile without necessarily gaining much of anything.

[Peelee]

He wouldn’t, but the situations aren’t strictly comparable, because Redcloak doesn’t necessarily give up anything by agreeing to meet Durkon. It’s a risk, but not a risk on the level of betraying Xykon.

Which is not to say that I endorse the plan of taking a hostage just to get Redcloak to meet. It seems like a great way to make him more hostile without necessarily gaining much of anything.

In the same way The Dark One didn't necessarily give up anything by agreeing to meet with the human kings, of course.

[Emanick]

In the same way The Dark One didn't necessarily give up anything by agreeing to meet with the human kings, of course.

Sure. And we are talking about the goblin cleric who believes that “stupid risks are just that - stupid.”

So you have to give him a reason why the risk is worth taking. I think he would be willing to take what he perceives as a reasonable risk to protect That Person (too lazy to bother with spoiler tags, though apparently industrious enough to type out this parenthetical), but I’m sure that, if he did, he would take every precaution in case of betrayal.

That said, as I alluded to earlier, I disagree that the reason you give necessarily has to be one that he would perceive as inflammatory. If you can give Redcloak an actual reason why his ultimate goals will be furthered by meeting with you - and, if you’re Durkon, you can - why wouldn’t you?

[The_Weirdo]

I am bemused that the Pilgrim is pushing "forget the whole diplomacy thing, just beat the greenskin into submission or death" so hard.

There are lots of people on this forum I would have expected that from, but not previously him.

Don't look at me, Redcloak never mistreated Durkon personally and/or in a context in which he could not react. Also I know Redcloak is much more powerful than Durkon. Also I understand Redcloak's point of view. In short, I have standards and, in this case, mine are not met.

[Vinyadan]

Hi Redcloak! Blackmail speaking. TDO plan fail; gods about unmake current world as myriad before. Thor stop this, if TDO helps. Gonna be worth it!

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Hi Redcloak! Blackmail speaking. TDO plan fail; gods about unmake current world as myriad before. Thor stop this, if TDO helps. Gonna be worth it!

It took me three reads to understand that Blackmail is a reference to their chainmail being black. I kept looking for the "do what I say or threat" section of the blackmailing.

Grey Wolf

[Peelee]

It took me three reads to understand that Blackmail is a reference to their chainmail being black. I kept looking for the "do what I say or threat" section of the blackmailing.

Grey Wolf

It took until I read your comment, and even then I'm confused. Are LG dwarf clericstudents of Thor stereotypically clad in blackened chainmail?

[KorvinStarmast]

Which is not to say that I endorse the plan of taking a hostage just to get Redcloak to meet. It seems like a great way to make him more hostile without necessarily gaining much of anything. Who said that Durkon has to actually take a hostage? The point is the message, and to get Red Cloak's attention such that they meet.

Hi Redcloak! Blackmail speaking. TDO plan fail; gods about to unmake current world. Thor stops this if TDO helps. Worth it; let's talk details I like where you went with this. Hope you like the edit. :

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Who said that Durkon has to actually take a hostage? The point is the message, and to get Red Cloak's attention such that they meet.
I like where you went with this. Hope you like the edit. :

My problem with this is that in RC's mind, that is still a win for TDO, since it is supposed to give him a seat at the table of the creation of the next world. The crucial information that the TDO will starve before that happens needs to be included, or RC will just go "oh, good, the Plan is working".

(This does assume that this hypothetical cleric has access to knowledge from both RC's plan and Thor's at the same time, something no-one in OotS currently has, to the best of my recollection)

Grey Wolf

[KorvinStarmast]

The crucial information that the TDO will starve before that happens needs to be included, or RC will just go "oh, good, the Plan is working". Good point, it needs a slight word smithing to fold in your concern.

@Vinydan: care to try a second draft?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Good point, it needs a slight word smithing to fold in your concern.

@Vinydan: care to try a second draft?

Errr... you quoted me but put Vinydan as the author

Grey Wolf

[Peelee]

Because I somehow missed this reply...


Dwarves are practical people. A proper dwarf shouldn't waste resources in a sending spell for an enemy unless he makes damn sure the receiver is going to Listen.

A.) If your hammer is in Redcloak's mouth already, then casting a Sending is already a waste of resources because Redcloak is, by definition, within "I'm holding my hammer in his mouth" distance.
2.) The dwarf in question either knows Xykon's phylactery is held by Redcloak (latest knowledge from Niu), or has no idea where the phylactery is. In either case, it is one hell of a poor bluff.

[The Pilgrim]

Who said that Durkon has to actually take a hostage? The point is the message, and to get Red Cloak's attention such that they meet.
I like where you went with this. Hope you like the edit. :

Even better if you make The Person send the message. Said person probably grew up among humans, so should be easier to convince to collaborate than Redcloak.


A.) If your hammer is in Redcloak's mouth already, then casting a Sending is already a waste of resources because Redcloak is, by definition, within "I'm holding my hammer in his mouth" distance.

It's only a waste of resources according to your twisted human undisciplined viewpoint. Dwarves are disciplined, honor-bound people. If contacting Redcloak via a Sending is the honorable thing to do, a Dwarf will do it and it will not be a waste of resources in any way.


2.) The dwarf in question either knows Xykon's phylactery is held by Redcloak (latest knowledge from Niu), or has no idea where the phylactery is. In either case, it is one hell of a poor bluff.

So, you are saying that having destroyed an Epic-Level Sorcerer Lich is a poor bluff that you can do the same to a non-epic Goblin Cleric. If Redcloak is holding the Phylactery, all the better, then he knows Xykon has been destroyed. In case he missed the ka-boom during the battle which ended with your hammer in his mouth.

[KorvinStarmast]

Errr... you quoted me but put Vinydan as the author

Grey Wolf Fixed. Gaah, some days, my multiquoting is all over the place like a one year old's spaghetti.

[Vinyadan]

OK, let's make another try (starting from Korvin's version).

Redcloak! Blackmail speaking. TDO plan fail; gods boutta unmake world; TDO too young, no survive. Thor stops this if TDO helps. Worth talk details!


"Blackmail" was a joke about Redcloak's name. Also, the first version I had thought had a more violent approach (Thor WILL kill TDO if he doesn't help him, so it treated it more as an extortion).

[Emanick]

Who said that Durkon has to actually take a hostage? The point is the message, and to get Red Cloak's attention such that they meet.

My problem with this is that, either way, by taking this approach Durkon is ramping up Redcloak's hostility towards him without necessarily needing to. Durkon likely already has enough information to get Redcloak to listen to him, if he plays his cards right. He doesn't need to antagonize the goblin high priest, which, ceteris paribus, will make diplomacy harder once the meeting occurs.

[Fyraltari]

(This does assume that this hypothetical cleric has access to knowledge from both RC's plan and Thor's at the same time, something no-one in OotS currently has, to the best of my recollection)

Grey Wolf

Durkon does: Panel 8 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1142.html). And given he and Minrah considered "TDO survives" a positive outcome almost immediately (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1144.html), I'd be surprised if he didn't realize Redcloak does.

EDIT: Question regarding the the thread title: are there non-religious DnD Clerics? Besides poor roleplaying, I mean.

[Emanick]

Question regarding the the thread title: are there non-religious DnD Clerics? Besides poor roleplaying, I mean.

Probably not, since even the clerics of a "cause," like the stone-worshipping cult we just saw, have something that they revere. It would be theoretically possible to have an atheistic cleric (and I'm sure some people have played just such a character over the years), but since said cleric would have to dedicate him or herself to something in order to receive spells and other clerical abilities, even that person would have a religion of sorts.

I... guess you could lose your faith, and cease to be religious, but still retain all of your cleric levels? It'd be pretty bad, though, since you'd no longer have access to most of your class abilities. All you'd have left would be the basics, like your hit points, saving throw bonuses, armor and shield proficiencies, proficiency in simple weapons, skill ranks, and maybe some feats. Could be an interesting roleplaying challenge, but your effectiveness as an adventurer would be close to nil.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Durkon does: Panel 8 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1142.html). And given he and Minrah considered "TDO survives" a positive outcome almost immediately (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1144.html), I'd be surprised if he didn't realize Redcloak does.

That only shows that Durkon is aware of the danger to tDO. Not that he is aware that the plan counts world destruction as a victory. Thus, he might not think to highlight that in a sending.


EDIT: Question regarding the the thread title: are there non-religious DnD Clerics? Besides poor roleplaying, I mean.

It comes down to how you define religion (which I won't go into, for obvious reasons), but by some definitions, the clerics of the Stone don't have a religion since they don't worship a god.

Grey Wolf

[Fyraltari]

Probably not, since even the clerics of a "cause," like the stone-worshipping cult we just saw, have something that they revere. It would be theoretically possible to have an atheistic cleric (and I'm sure some people have played just such a character over the years), but since said cleric would have to dedicate him or herself to something in order to receive spells and other clerical abilities, even that person would have a religion of sorts.

I... guess you could lose your faith, and cease to be religious, but still retain all of your cleric levels? It'd be pretty bad, though, since you'd no longer have access to most of your class abilities. All you'd have left would be the basics, like your hit points, saving throw bonuses, armor and shield proficiencies, proficiency in simple weapons, skill ranks, and maybe some feats. Could be an interesting roleplaying challenge, but your effectiveness as an adventurer would be close to nil.
Okay.

That only shows that Durkon is aware of the danger to tDO. Not that he is aware that the plan counts world destruction as a victory. Thus, he might not think to highlight that in a sending.
Fair enough.




It comes down to how you define religion (which I won't go into, for obvious reasons), but by some definitions, the clerics of the Stone don't have a religion since they don't worship a god.

Grey Wolf
Well the one definition by Merriam Webster (https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/religion) that includes God also accepts the supernatural instead so while the Creeders of the Stone are atheistic I don't think one can count them as areligious.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Well the one definition by Merriam Webster (https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/religion) that includes God also accepts the supernatural instead so while the Creeders of the Stone are atheistic I don't think one can count them as areligious.

And I agree, but I can see how others might not - including the idea that stones are supernatural.

But dangerous topic, and one were I'd be defending a position I don't myself hold, so I wouldn't do a great job of it. Best I can hope for is for you to glimpse where the argument would lie. But I can't sell it to you, and it'd probably be against forum rules even if I could.

Grey Wolf

[Fyraltari]

And I agree, but I can see how others might not - including the idea that stones are supernatural.

But dangerous topic, and one were I'd be defending a position I don't myself hold, so I wouldn't do a great job of it. Best I can hope for is for you to glimpse where the argument would lie. But I can't sell it to you, and it'd probably be against forum rules even if I could.

Grey Wolf
They don't worship stones, though. They worship the Elemental Earth (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0994.html), and elementals are magic and therefore supernatural. Well, magic is natural is this universe, so the Elemantals aren't any more supernaturals than the Elves, gods, undeads and giant-strong human anyway.

[Peelee]

OK, let's make another try (starting from Korvin's version).

Redcloak! Blackmail speaking. TDO plan fail; gods boutta unmake world; TDO too young, no survive. Thor stops this if TDO helps. Worth talk details!


"Blackmail" was a joke about Redcloak's name.
So the message is, "Redcloak! Redcloak here."?

It comes down to how you define religion (which I won't go into, for obvious reasons)

Grey Wolf
Pish tosh, we can certainly go into it as for how it relates to D&D. For instance, one definition of religion could be "has skill points in Knowledge (Religion)," or "lists a deity on their character sheet." The first would have the Creed of Stone being very religious, the second would have them being not religious at all. Me, though, I'd just define it as "if you asked the character if they were religious, how would they respond?" and call it a day. Imean, sure, they could lie, but that can be dealt with like any other sort of lie if needed.

[Jasdoif]

Question regarding the the thread title: are there non-religious DnD Clerics? Besides poor roleplaying, I mean.As has been mentioned, it depends on how you look at it. Clerics, specifically, get magical powers through the strength of their devotion; so it's a question of where to draw the line on how much devotion constitutes a religion.

There are also non-cleric classes that get cleric spells, through other means. Offhand....favored souls have an innate connection to a deity independent of any sort of belief; while ur-priests hate deities in general, and siphon/steal divine energy from them to power their own spells.

[Fyraltari]

while ur-priests hate deities in general, and siphon/steal divine energy from them to power their own spells.

You're telling me there's a class who's entire concept is to piss the most powerful being around off? Gottat be brave to start with this at level 1.

[understatement]

Also, one of the points is to split RC away from Xykon. The melee option doesn't necessarily work because you'd have to defeat Xykon to be in such proximity, which opens another can of worms. The Sending really is convenient here in that Redcloak, and only Redcloak, can get clued in to Thor's infodump without Xykon catching it at all.

in short: #makelovenotwar (in-context)

[Peelee]

You're telling me there's a class who's entire concept is to piss the most powerful being around off? Gottat be brave to start with this at level 1.

It's easy to be brave if you have a massively overpowered built at level 1. Ur-priest is a prestige class, you need specific pre-reqs to take it that'll require at least a few levels.:smallwink:

[Vinyadan]

So the message is, "Redcloak! Redcloak here."?



No, it's because Redcloak's name is made up of colour + clothing, and it doesn't sound like it's his real name*, so, when you contact him, you may as well use a pseudonym that is built the same way.

*I would assume that it isn't his real name because he is wearing a red cloak. Otherwise, it could be something like Thundershield.

[Peelee]

No, it's because Redcloak's name is made up of colour + clothing, and it doesn't sound like it's his real name*, so, when you contact him, you may as well use a pseudonym that is built the same way.

Dang, I should have gotten that way before you ELI5ing it to me. Which, bytheway, I totally appreciate!

[Fyraltari]

No, it's because Redcloak's name is made up of colour + clothing, and it doesn't sound like it's his real name*, so, when you contact him, you may as well use a pseudonym that is built the same way.

*I would assume that it isn't his real name because he is wearing a red cloak. Otherwise, it could be something like Thundershield.
Indeed, Start of Darkness reveals why he chose to be called that.
Because he wears black armor.

[Peelee]

Indeed, Start of Darkness reveals why he chose to be called that.
Because he wears black armor.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uKadFsH6gsw

Also probably the only clip I could embed without breaking the forum filter rules.

[Lvl45DM!]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uKadFsH6gsw

Also probably the only clip I could embed without breaking the forum filter rules.

Heh, I just posted Miron Shewdanker in the Trivia thread, and someone responded "Why is he called Shewdanker"
and the response was
"...because he danks shews, Avi"

[Peelee]

Heh, I just posted Miron Shewdanker in the Trivia thread, and someone responded "Why is he called Shewdanker"
and the response was
"...because he danks shews, Avi"

Yes, I am a bit of a one-trick pony.:smallamused:

[KorvinStarmast]

It comes down to how you define religion (which I won't go into, for obvious reasons), but by some definitions, the clerics of the Stone don't have a religion since they don't worship a god. D&D 5e gets around that in the DMG, pages 10-13, where a cleric or paladin can serve a Force or a Philosophy as the conduit to divine casting abilities. :smallsmile: Yes, I know that's not very OT for a 3.5e based comic, but it's a way to avoid the religion topic ... which I usually defined to my students this way: faith is personal, while religion is a collective endeavour. (Yes, I used the Brit spelling on purpose, and I think I stayed withing guidelines?).

[Squire Doodad]

THE END IS NIGH! THE SNARL LORD SHALL BE FREE, ONLY BANJO CAN SAVE US NOW! APPLY TODAY, FREE REBATE QUOTE! ACT NOW, DON'T DELAY!

Oh, you wanted something productive?


There are also non-cleric classes that get cleric spells, through other means. Offhand....favored souls have an innate connection to a deity independent of any sort of belief; while ur-priests hate deities in general, and siphon/steal divine energy from them to power their own spells.

Does that mean that when gods are out of divine energy, they need to ask their Clerics to go into Ur base and starting killin Ur dudes?

On the topic: Is it even possible for RC to stop Durkon from attempting to reach him via Sending? Furthermore, do you guys really think he would? It doesn't seem like a common tactic to need to defend against, and RC has plenty of reasons to not block sendings (Xykon does stuff, Gobohobbotopia is under attack, etc.).

[Kish]

If Redcloak is currently under the effects of Cloister, Durkon can no more Send to him than Vaarsuvius could send to Haley during Don't Split the Party.

[understatement]

If Redcloak is currently under the effects of Cloister, Durkon can no more Send to him than Vaarsuvius could send to Haley during Don't Split the Party.

Me in the third-to-last and penultimate panel. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0546.html)

Well.

Huh, that does communication more difficult.

[The Pilgrim]

Also, one of the points is to split RC away from Xykon. The melee option doesn't necessarily work because you'd have to defeat Xykon to be in such proximity, which opens another can of worms. The Sending really is convenient here in that Redcloak, and only Redcloak, can get clued in to Thor's infodump without Xykon catching it at all.

in short: #makelovenotwar (in-context)

Your OP did not include that information.

If the intent is to drift Redcloak away from Xykon, then the Sending I would make is:

"Xykon shared Ritual. Backstabbing you. Vampire clerics of Hel have full plan for Snarl. My god offers parley by proxy with Dark One. Call back."

Technically all is true or an educated guess at least. And Durkon already shown at Azure City prison that he is into Jedi-Truths when necessary.

[Vinyadan]

Me in the third-to-last and penultimate panel. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0546.html)

Well.

Huh, that does communication more difficult.

Don't worry, you can always use Vaarsuvius's Spicy Messenger.

[Fyraltari]

Your OP did not include that information.

If the intent is to drift Redcloak away from Xykon, then the Sending I would make is:

"Xykon shared Ritual. Backstabbing you. Vampire clerics of Hel have full plan for Snarl. My god offers parley by proxy with Dark One. Call back."

Technically all is true or an educated guess at least. And Durkon already shown at Azure City prison that he is into Jedi-Truths when necessary.
I don’t follow, how would Durkon know Xykon knows even part of the Ritual and with whom has Xykon shared it? Tsukiko? Durkon doesn’t know that and Redclaok has already dealt with it. How is Xykon backstabbing Redcloak? And what do the vampires have to do with the Snarl? Their plan hinges on the Godsmoot not on Team Evil’s actions. Why would Redcloak even care about them?

[martianmister]

Dark One is in danger. Greenhilt got your niece. Halfling will tickle her with knife if you don't meet me in Firmament by tomorrow noon.

[understatement]

Dark One is in danger. Greenhilt got your niece. Halfling will tickle her with knife if you don't meet me in Firmament by tomorrow noon.

Wouldn't meeting at Firmament possibly endanger the dwarves inside?

[Fyraltari]

Does anyone even know Redcloak has a niece?

[Squire Doodad]

Question regarding the the thread title: are there non-religious DnD Clerics? Besides poor roleplaying, I mean.

There's been a couple, yeah (http://www.nuklearpower.com/2005/08/11/episode-585-a-lofty-goal/). (5th panel).
I stand by my cross-canon-reference-gibberish.


Does anyone even know Redcloak has a niece?

Hm, Redcloak does.
Honestly, I don't think that's been brought up in the online comics at all except for maybe a passing remark by Redcloak. And even then it would have been while everyone else is busy because the only place I can think of it happening would be maybe the war on Azure City or a discussion with Oona. Small chance that the ACUG knew about it from their poly-polymorph spy, but the odds of them feeling it important to tell Hinjo or the Order is fairly small.

[Fyraltari]

Hm, Redcloak does.
Besides him, obviously.

Honestly, I don't think that's been brought up in the online comics at all except for maybe a passing remark by Redcloak. And even then it would have been while everyone else is busy because the only place I can think of it happening would be maybe the war on Azure City or a discussion with Oona. Small chance that the ACUG knew about it from their poly-polymorph spy, but the odds of them feeling it important to tell Hinjo or the Order is fairly small.
I don't see any context in which Redcloak would bring that up to anybody, nor do I remember it happening. Tsukikko, for example had no idea why calling him "Wrong Eye" riled him up.

[martianmister]

MitD knew her, and he might have told O-Chul about her.

[Blindfolded Ape]

Well.

Huh, that does communication more difficult.

Use Vaaruvius' Greater Animal Messenger to send a message, and attach a physical letter as well for safety. Make sure to have the outside of the letter say it's from Gobbotopia Administration or something to guarentee Xykon won't want to read it but Redcloak will. Include honorifics too.

Praise be unto Tha Dark One, who stands as a hope to us all!

Praise be unto Redcloak, who bears tha Crimson Mantle!

Dear Redcloak,

Sorry aboot tha deception, but something big has come up in tha Outer Planes. Thor believes that Tha Dark One may be vital to saving tha world from tha Snarl. Cannae say much here, but Thor's willin' to talk an' listen if The Dark One is. Accordin' ta what he told me, it shouldn't be difficult, but does need cooperation.

If ye dinnae have a problem wit' diplomacy, please use enclosed scroll to send reply. Wit' any luck, this'll work, an' Tha Dark One will get full pantheon starting recognition.

Sincerely,

Durkon Thundershield, Priest o' Thor

Enclosed scroll could be any of the various 'send message to someone far away' spells, though most likely Sending. It shows that they're at least invested enough to pay his expenses.

Or, more on topic, here's a Sending-only version:

Thor reqeusts divine ceasefire. Willing to talk with The Dark One. Can save world and give goblins Pantheon. Is diplomacy a possibility on this matter?

[Rinazina]

"Snarl destroyed millions of worlds. Dark One won't survive recreation time if Snarl gets loose. Cannot permanently trap Snarl without him. Thor requests negotiations."
This to me looks the best so far, but I think more on the fact that for RedClock is a "win-win" situation:

- threat the old Gods with the snarl and negotiate better condition, or
- destroy the world and be part of the rebuilding process.

Now, the second is the one Thor discourage (because Dark one might not survive recreation time); But Dark One hasn't to threat them with a fully working portal: seems it is already worked. Red Clock has the equivalent of the nuclear deterrent. My message would be:

"North pantheon wants to discuss treaty with the Dark One, I'm their emissary, I've intelligence to share. Suspend hostility"

[Reddish Mage]

Thor reqeusts divine ceasefire. Willing to talk with The Dark One. Can save world and give goblins Pantheon. Is diplomacy a possibility on this matter?

The problem with these sorts of messages (practically all of what I"m seeing), is that it uses Redcloak as a way to try to reach the Dark One. That isn't the point. The Dark One is supposedly a lost cause. What Thor suggested is not that Durkon reaches out to Redcloak to convince the Dark One to alter his plans, but to reach out to Redcloak to convince Redcloak to abandon his path and contain the Snarl.

That's a good deal harder to do in 25 words than simply try to open a dialogue. By the way, from what we're told, any attempt to open a dialogue would be interpreted as a trick.

So in 25 words are less, instead of trying to start a parley, simply convinced Redcloak to abandon his god's purpose, stop what he's doing, reverse course completely, and contain the Snarl along with a complete stranger he only knows as his mortal enemy.

One last detail, Redcloak is the guy who is still has all of goblin-kind toady-ing to Xykon because of all the sunk costs there. This is a priest who has a history of choosing a path and a willingness to stick to it even if it means killing his only family.

I'm sure you'll find it a lot easier now that you know your task is to convince the most fanatic of the Dark One's followers to completely do a 180 on his whole divine mission thing, the mission he's already sacrificed so much to accomplish.

[The Aboleth]

That's a good deal harder to do in 25 words than simply try to open a dialogue. By the way, from what we're told, any attempt to open a dialogue would be interpreted as a trick.

Exactly. Redcloak would see any attempt at diplomacy as a trick, because

The Dark One tried negotiating a non-violent solution before, only to be stabbed in the back for it.

Redcloak would likely view any attempt at "diplomacy" by Durkon in this light.

I think the ideal solution is to frame cooperation as a way to cut out Xykon; an argument that appeals to the good of Goblinkind will be seen as a trick, but one that presents the possibility of Xykon being taken out of the picture while still allowing room for The Plan's ultimate objective might be seen more favorably by Redcloak.

[Peelee]

Thor reqeusts divine ceasefire. Willing to talk with The Dark One. Can save world and give goblins Pantheon.

Redcloak's reply: "No thanks, we already have one! Also, fun fact, the world being destroyed is literally plan B, so no biggie on not saving it. Cheers!"

[KarlMarx]

You can make sending lnger by neglecting soaces.
make everything one word.

Or, on a perhaps more serious/comprehensible note, could you send in a mutually understood agglutinative language if any exist, like real-world Hungarian or Turkish? You can get single words that have as much density of meaning as a sentence in an isolating language like real-world English and OOTSverse common.

[The Aboleth]

Or, on a perhaps more serious/comprehensible note, could you send in a mutually understood agglutinative language if any exist, like real-world Hungarian or Turkish? You can get single words that have as much density of meaning as a sentence in an isolating language like real-world English and OOTSverse common.

I may be dating myself here, but that reminds me of this commercial:

https://youtu.be/9JxhTnWrKYs

As for if Sending would allow that, I feel like there's some sort of "stupid God rule" (as Thor would say) preventing that. As a DM...I'd allow it once for comedic reasons and then ban it after. :smallwink:

[Wizard_Lizard]

Or, on a perhaps more serious/comprehensible note, could you send in a mutually understood agglutinative language if any exist, like real-world Hungarian or Turkish? You can get single words that have as much density of meaning as a sentence in an isolating language like real-world English and OOTSverse common.

sorry for the horrible grammar and spelling.
But, I am typing this on tge experimental browser on a kindle at about 2:00am most of the tine, so cut me some slack

[The Aboleth]

sorry for the horrible grammar and spelling.
But, I am typing this on tge experimental browser on a kindle at about 2:00am most of the tine, so cut me some slack

I think the person who responded to you was basically agreeing with your point, but instead of neglecting spaces they posited that perhaps another language could be used because certain ones have extremely long words that convey entire ideas/meanings. I'm not an expert on languages, so I could be wrong, but that's what I took away from the post.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Or, on a perhaps more serious/comprehensible note, could you send in a mutually understood agglutinative language if any exist, like real-world Hungarian or Turkish? You can get single words that have as much density of meaning as a sentence in an isolating language like real-world English and OOTSverse common.

Unfortunately, the people who designed the rules for D&D seem to assume that all foreign languages are just English, with different words in a slightly different order, and maybe a different way of writing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QYlVJlmjLEc&list=PL96C35uN7xGLDEnHuhD7CTZES3KXFnwm0&index=16

I understand that in the translation of the rules to other languages, the translators effectively throw up their hands in the air and say, for spells such as Command, that it's up to the DM to choose whether to allow the spell to be completely broken in the local language, or to enforce "magic speaks English" rules.

Grey Wolf

[Peelee]

Unfortunately, the people who designed the rules for D&D seem to assume that all foreign languages are just English, with different words in a slightly different order, and maybe a different way of writing.

Grey Wolf

I think it's less assuming and more not caring to go into the level of complexity likely required because they're writing the books in English. They're game designers, not linguists, and I'm fine with that (and also biased, but still).

[hroþila]

Just change it from e.g. "25 words" to "significantly smaller number of noun phrases and/or main verbs". Problem solved after some balancing, plus you have everyone at the table doing syntactic analysis, so it's win-win.

[Fyraltari]

Just change it from e.g. "25 words" to "significantly smaller number of noun phrases and/or main verbs". Problem solved after some balancing, plus you have everyone at the table doing syntactic analysis, so it's win-win.

I would change it to: "No more than 100 syllables." Or some other number.

Hell I would probably do that for english-like languages anyway.

[Wizard_Lizard]

I think the person who responded to you was basically agreeing with your point, but instead of neglecting spaces they posited that perhaps another language could be used because certain ones have extremely long words that convey entire ideas/meanings. I'm not an expert on languages, so I could be wrong, but that's what I took away from the post.

I thought he was saying that my typing was illegible...
But that works too.

[Squire Doodad]

Redcloak's reply: "No thanks, we already have one! Also, fun fact, the world being destroyed is literally plan B, so no biggie on not saving it. Cheers!"

Heeeeeyyyyyyy....

The universe is like, still really big right? (I think aliens are mostly a non-issue though given the Gods focus on this one)
But, in theory, the Snarl cannot travel at faster than light speed without a destination (implied or otherwise) and will not actively seek out a specific source of life, just things in general (maybe just sources of Deific energy?). Therefore, by moving it to the outermost area of the Outer Planes, the Snarl will spend its time devouring everything in the Outer Planes before moving onto the Material Plane, meaning that there is plenty of time for RC and everyone else to live, grow old, and die before the Snarl gets there. Problem solved!

...10 points if you manage to convince me that's the ultimate Neutral action instead of the ultimate Evil one.

[Wizard_Lizard]

Heeeeeyyyyyyy....

The universe is like, still really big right? (I think aliens are mostly a non-issue though given the Gods focus on this one)
But, in theory, the Snarl cannot travel at faster than light speed without a destination (implied or otherwise) and will not actively seek out a specific source of life, just things in general (maybe just sources of Deific energy?). Therefore, by moving it to the outermost area of the Outer Planes, the Snarl will spend its time devouring everything in the Outer Planes before moving onto the Material Plane, meaning that there is plenty of time for RC and everyone else to live, grow old, and die before the Snarl gets there. Problem solved!

...10 points if you manage to convince me that's the ultimate Neutral action instead of the ultimate Evil one.

Or tey could move it, and then build another world-prison....

[martianmister]

Or, on a perhaps more serious/comprehensible note, could you send in a mutually understood agglutinative language if any exist, like real-world Hungarian or Turkish? You can get single words that have as much density of meaning as a sentence in an isolating language like real-world English and OOTSverse common.

Turkish, for example, would look like this:

Karanlık Kişinin hayatı tehlikede. "Snarl" geçmişte bizimkine benzer milyarlarca dünyayı yok etmiş! Bu dünya yok edilirse, Karanlık Kişi de yok olacak! Firmament'de buluşup konuşup anlaşalım.

[Wizard_Lizard]

Turkish, for example, would look like this:

Karanlık Kişinin hayatı tehlikede. "Snarl" geçmişte bizimkine benzer milyarlarca dünyayı yok etmiş! Bu dünya yok edilirse, Karanlık Kişi de yok olacak! Firmament'de buluşup konuşup anlaşalım.

what does that mean in english though?

[martianmister]

what does that mean in english though?

The Dark One's life is in danger. "The Snarl" did destroy billions of worlds similar to ours! If this world is destroyed, the Dark One, too, will be destroyed! Let's meet at Firmament and talk about it.

[LadyEowyn]

Here’s my attempt. Requires three Sendings, and for the Order to talk the gods into being willing to offer a lot more than they’re currently offering. Assumes (possibly incorrectly) that Durkon is somewhat aware of Redcloak’s grievances.

Gods are aware of Plan to threaten to release Snarl on Outer Planes. Threats are not necessary to gain goblinoid equality.

Gods are willing to make major concessions in return for Dark One’s assistance in containing Snarl. If world is destroyed, the Dark One won’t survive.

Meet to discuss?

[deuterio12]

Speaking of OotS religion and Snarl, don't forget the infernal trio (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0668.html) running their own plot to seemingly destroy all good gods (and maybe all the gods).

Which also raises the question if the infernals (and angels and whatnot) are also aware of the whole "zillion worlds destroyed".

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Speaking of OotS religion and Snarl, don't forget the infernal trio (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0668.html) running their own plot to seemingly destroy all good gods (and maybe all the gods).

Which also raises the question if the infernals (and angels and whatnot) are also aware of the whole "zillion worlds destroyed".

It doesn’t. Their memories are wiped as per canon.

Grey Wolf

[deuterio12]

It doesn’t. Their memories are wiped as per canon.

Grey Wolf

They still know about the snarl which they shouldn't, so their memories either weren't wiped properly or they've found about it through other means. One way or the other, they may be aware of the zillion destructions as well now.

This is, if Thor is willing to share that intel with Durkon, certainly some evil god could've spilled the beans to some villain.

[martianmister]

They still know about the snarl which they shouldn't, so their memories either weren't wiped properly or they've found about it through other means. One way or the other, they may be aware of the zillion destructions as well now.

Didn't they learn it from Sabine?

[Kish]

They still know about the snarl which they shouldn't, so their memories either weren't wiped properly or they've found about it through other means.
Specifically the means of Sabine telling them about it in the comic.

[Fyraltari]

However they found out about the world-within in-between appearances when Sabine did not, so they have a second source of intel.

[Anymage]

However they found out about the world-within in-between appearances when Sabine did not, so they have a second source of intel.

They've been watching V.

On topic, if we assume that RC is rational and that RC could convince TDO if given sufficient information and a proper pitch, I'd just say that I have more information about the gates that might complicate the plan, and meet to parley. Of course, if that tactic had a chance of working, some god would just send a messenger to RC directly and cut out the need for Durkon.

As it stands, with TDO being understandably paranoid and RC having a massive sunk cost fallacy going on, something's going to have to break him first.

[goodpeople25]

However they found out about the world-within in-between appearances when Sabine did not, so they have a second source of intel.
When was that revealed?

[Fyraltari]

Contrast the Directors' reaction to Sabine's. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0903.html)
Though I guess, it is possibleb they just eavesdropped on Blackwing and V.

[deuterio12]

Contrast the Directors' reaction to Sabine's. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0903.html)
Though I guess, it is possibleb they just eavesdropped on Blackwing and V.

Thing is, they're eavesdropping everybody. "It's easy to rig the game when you have players in every team".

Also the world inside the rift still needs to be properly explained. Why hasn't the Snarl destroyed it if they're both inside the rift? Don't the gods know about that one or are they keeping it as another of their dear secrets?

[Fyraltari]

Thing is, they're eavesdropping everybody. "It's easy to rig the game when you have players in every team".

Also the world inside the rift still needs to be properly explained. Why hasn't the Snarl destroyed it if they're both inside the rift? Don't the gods know about that one or are they keeping it as another of their dear secrets?

They don’t have players in every team. They had some in the LG abd in the Order (if you count V) but none in Team Evil or in Team Hel.

Thor didn’t know about the World Within until Durkon ranted about it mid-Raise Dead.

[goodpeople25]

Contrast the Directors' reaction to Sabine's. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0903.html)
Though I guess, it is possibleb they just eavesdropped on Blackwing and V.
Or you know, they just had a different reaction then Sabine. Not that the having a somewhat friendly one-sided conversation about the topics at hand part is that in character for them.

[Fyraltari]

Or you know, they just had a different reaction then Sabine. Not that the having a somewhat friendly one-sided conversation about the topics at hand part is that in character for them.

I don’t think you become Archfiend by silencing people who are giving you cosmic secrets freely.