Wrapping my head around Magic Initate

[Bjarkmundur]

Is this roughly how it works?



Choose a class spell list. You can add two 1st level spells and two cantrips from your chosen spell list to your list of known spells. It uses the same spellcasting ability score as it’s associated class. You can cast each spell once per long rest. If you already have the spellcasting feature and choose spells from your class' spell list, you can cast them using your own spell slots.

[CTurbo]

You learn two cantrips and ONE 1st level spell. The rest is correct.

[Bjarkmundur]

Does this mean that if I have no spell slots remaining, I can I still cast my magic initiate spell once, since it says ""once per long rest"?

Is there any spell list out there that allows me to order spells by duration?

[Garfunion]

Does this mean that if I have no spell slots remaining, I can I still cast my magic initiate spell once, since it says ""once per long rest"?
Correct but, the spell you learned with magic initiate can not be cast using a spell slot.

[Man_Over_Game]

Correct but, the spell you learned with magic initiate can not be cast using a spell slot.

Well, no. It can only be cast from a class spell slot if you have spell slots from the associated class.

So if you're a Sorcerer, and you get Magic Initiate (Sorcerer), you can cast your Magic Initiate spell using any spell slots. If you are a Sorcerer, and you get Magic Initiate (Cleric), you can only ever cast that Magic Initiate spell once per day.

Interestingly enough, you could be a Sorcerer/Cleric, take Magic Initiate (Sorcerer), and then cast the Magic Initiate spell using Cleric spell slots.

[Garfunion]

Well, no. It can only be cast from a spell slot if you have normal spell slots from the associated class.

So if you're a Sorcerer, and you get Magic Initiate (Sorcerer), you can cast your Magic Initiate spell using any spell slots. If you are a Sorcerer, and you get Magic Initiate (Cleric), you can only ever cast that Magic Initiate spell once per day.
I was trying to keep it simple. What you are saying comes from an official Sage Advice ruling. Which some players may not use.

[Man_Over_Game]

I was trying to keep it simple. What you are saying comes from an official Sage Advice ruling. Which some players may not use.

I get that, but it was included in his original post. Not addressing that would probably make things more confusing.

[Garfunion]

I get that, but it was included in his original post. Not addressing that would probably make things more confusing.
Looking back at it, you are right.


OP
As for a list of 1st lvl spells in order of duration, I have not seen one. It maybe be better for you to just look at all the 1st lvl spells and pick one that best fits your character’s build.

[Zhorn]

I was under the impression spells known is just spells you know regardless of origin and that the class aspect only matters for the spell casting attribute.

Magic initiate gives you one free 1st level cast of the chosen spell, but for all intents and purposes you have learned that spell and can cast it with you regular available spell slots.

[Yuroch Kern]

It also enables spell completion and item attunement from the chosen class. A bard that gets MI wizard can attune a Robe of the Archmagi and cast Magic Missile from a scroll, for example.

[Rukelnikov]

I was under the impression spells known is just spells you know regardless of origin and that the class aspect only matters for the spell casting attribute.

Magic initiate gives you one free 1st level cast of the chosen spell, but for all intents and purposes you have learned that spell and can cast it with you regular available spell slots.

Magic Initiate gives you one known spell from any full caster class. Thing is the spell slots feature of all classes that have it, say "The Sorcerer table shows how many spell slots you have to cast your sorcerer spells of 1st level and higher". So, even when the spell you chose is now a spell known, your spell slots feature can't be used to cast entangle, for instance, since it's not a sorcerer spell.

[Zhorn]

Fair enough. It seems like a needless restriction to me.
I've just been using the logic of spell slots from multiclassing (PHB 164) and applying them across the board. Spell slots are spell slots, and spells known are spells known.

[Man_Over_Game]

Magic Initiate gives you one known spell from any full caster class. Thing is the spell slots feature of all classes that have it, say "
The Sorcerer table shows how many spell slots you have to cast your sorcerer spells of 1st level and higher". So, even when the spell you chose is now a spell known, your spell slots feature can't be used to cast entangle, for instance, since it's not a sorcerer spell.

To add on this, the only reason that you can cast spells using spell slots from another class is because the Multiclass rules say so.

Thinking about it, it's kinda odd. It comes out to be this:

"You can only ever use your class's spell slots for casting spells from the same class. However, the exception is if you multiclass". Therefore, you cannot spend spell slots to spend spells that neither came from the base class, nor from a multiclass.

One such example is Magic Initiate, but another example is from a Racial feature.

The only reason Magic Initiate lets you cast that spell with a spell slot if you have a level in the base class is because it explicitly makes an exception for it.

DnD: The world of exceptional exceptions.

[Zhorn]

I can see the reasoning for the restriction when playing a pure class. I don't agree with it, but if a DM was running it that way I'll stick by their decision and support it at their table.

It just seems so nonsensical to me that you can learn a spell and have the ability to cast spells but cannot apply that known spell with that ability to cast spells.

[Man_Over_Game]

I can see the reasoning for the restriction when playing a pure class. I don't agree with it, but if a DM was running it that way I'll stick by their decision and support it at their table.

It just seems so nonsensical to me that you can learn a spell and have the ability to cast spells but cannot apply that known spell with that ability to cast spells.

I guess, you gotta ask yourself: Should a Tiefling Light Cleric be able to cast their racial Darkness with a spell slot? Some would say yes, many would say no.

[Chronos]

But saying that you can't cast your MI spell with another class's spell slots becomes absurd as soon as you bring in multiclassing. By that argument, a cleric who takes MI: Wizard can't cast their spell with a slot, because their slots are all cleric slots... but if that cleric were to take a level of sorcerer, then suddenly they could, because they no longer have cleric slots nor sorcerer slots, but simply slots of no particular class. How does taking a level of sorcerer make you better at casting a wizard spell?

[TripleD]

But saying that you can't cast your MI spell with another class's spell slots becomes absurd as soon as you bring in multiclassing. By that argument, a cleric who takes MI: Wizard can't cast their spell with a slot, because their slots are all cleric slots... but if that cleric were to take a level of sorcerer, then suddenly they could, because they no longer have cleric slots nor sorcerer slots, but simply slots of no particular class. How does taking a level of sorcerer make you better at casting a wizard spell?

I think it’s a question of investment. A character who take Magic Initiaite is just a dabbler. They haven’t seriously studied the class in question.

Multiclassing represents a serious investment of time and resources. This is reflected in being able to see how spell slots work together.

For analogy: I see Magic Initiate being like learning how to change the oil in your car, while multiclassing is becoming a certified mechanic. The former is fairly superficial knowledge of a vehicle, while the later may allow you to draw parallels with a programming or engineering background you already possess.

[Yuroch Kern]

Look at it in reverse: you're a Sorcerer and take MI Sorcerer. You have gained a first level spell known AND can cast it for free at 1st level power. Multi-class into a cleric, and your slots simply gain versatility, but the drawback is delayed class progression. But the use of the feat has not changed at all. It just competes for slots like all your other spells. But the spell slots are based on inherent magic and divine inspiration, not arcane formulae or between the notes, so they are not perfect.

[Chronos]

But the character I described is still only a dabbler in wizardry. By analogy, they learned to change the oil in their car, then became a certified carpenter, and because of that, now they're better at auto maintenance.

[Vogie]

But the character I described is still only a dabbler in wizardry. By analogy, they learned to change the oil in their car, then became a certified carpenter, and because of that, now they're better at auto maintenance.

So... Adam Savage?

Having a mechanical engineering mindset will help you understand any type of other types of mechanical engineering mindsets. They may not know all of the parts or terms, and the materials are different, but the basic concepts are the same.

This gets really frustrating with economists, who have a tendency to wander into other disciplines with impunity... because their basic concept is just "working with massive sets of data".

[Zhorn]

I think the main lesson to draw from this is either;

A) You can only spend spell slots on spells known that match a class you have actual levels in.

or

B) Use the multiclass rule set for spells known and spell slots and don't bother with the class specific restriction ever.

Pick one rule and stick to it. Whether you multiclass or stick to a pure single class, stick to the same rule.
The two don't make sense in trying to apply them both

[JPicasso]

Another way to play, (and this is not RAW) is to just keep it all separate.

We find it much easier to keep our sorcerer spells separate from our paladin smites from our MI spells.

We also keep MI spells separate from known spells EVEN IF it's from the same class. I.e. your sorcerer picks MI and takes more sorcerer spells. That's just two more spells (and the cantrip) you can cast at first level once per long rest. You don't get to use the MI casting to cast another Sorcerer spell, and you don't get to use other sorcerer slots on your MI spells unless they are also spells you chose on your normal known list.

You don't have to agree with all this, I'm just saying it's much simpler and works fine for at least one table. :)

[Yuroch Kern]

Another way to play, (and this is not RAW) is to just keep it all separate.

We find it much easier to keep our sorcerer spells separate from our paladin smites from our MI spells.

We also keep MI spells separate from known spells EVEN IF it's from the same class. I.e. your sorcerer picks MI and takes more sorcerer spells. That's just two more spells (and the cantrip) you can cast at first level once per long rest. You don't get to use the MI casting to cast another Sorcerer spell, and you don't get to use other sorcerer slots on your MI spells unless they are also spells you chose on your normal known list.

You don't have to agree with all this, I'm just saying it's much simpler and works fine for at least one table. :)

Did it change? I thought it was two Cantrips, one 1st level Spell...

[Greywander]

Is this roughly how it works?
To put it simply:

Select one class from which to learn spells.
You learn two cantrips of your choice from that class. You can cast these at-will like any other cantrip.
Pick one 1st-level spell from that class. You may cast that once at 1st level, after which you must finish a long rest before you may cast it again.
For both cantrips and the spell, use that class's spellcasting ability score when casting them.


Correct but, the spell you learned with magic initiate can not be cast using a spell slot.
This is debatable, and I don't think a clear answer exists within the rules. It says you learn the spell. Generally, this could be seen as allowing the spell to be cast using a spell slot. The description itself only references casting it without using a spell slot, and furthermore goes on to say that you cannot cast the spell again until you finish a long rest.

The Sage Advice on this is that if you choose a class you have levels in (e.g. a sorcerer picks up Magic Initiate (sorcerer)), then you can cast it using spell slots. Personally, I don't think much of Sage Advice.


I was under the impression spells known is just spells you know regardless of origin and that the class aspect only matters for the spell casting attribute.

Magic initiate gives you one free 1st level cast of the chosen spell, but for all intents and purposes you have learned that spell and can cast it with you regular available spell slots.
This is how I would do it. It makes more sense when you consider the multiclassing rules for spell casters. If you learn the spell, even if it's from a different class, then you should be able to cast it using a spell slot.


Magic Initiate gives you one known spell from any full caster class. Thing is the spell slots feature of all classes that have it, say "The Sorcerer table shows how many spell slots you have to cast your sorcerer spells of 1st level and higher". So, even when the spell you chose is now a spell known, your spell slots feature can't be used to cast entangle, for instance, since it's not a sorcerer spell.

To add on this, the only reason that you can cast spells using spell slots from another class is because the Multiclass rules say so.
[...]
DnD: The world of exceptional exceptions.
My problem with this is that it needlessly complicates things. The moment you multiclass, you no longer have spell slots specifically for one class or another. Instead, you have spell slots that scale with your "caster level" which is a sum of all your levels in spellcasting classes. A cleric 1 / wizard 19 only knows 1st level cleric spells, but can upcast them to 9th level. Heck, even warlocks can cast warlock spells using non-Pact-Magic slots, and non-warlock spells using Pact Magic slots. Magic Initiate, and any other feature that allows you to "learn" a spell should work off of the same principle. In fact, it should be assumed that any known spell can be cast using a spell slot, and therefore they should explicitly state when you can't.

At the end of the day, it's difficult to determine what may have been intended originally. Personally, I'd do whatever seems most fun. Allowing a Magic Initiate spell to be cast using spell slots seems far from broken, so why not run with it?


I guess, you gotta ask yourself: Should a Tiefling Light Cleric be able to cast their racial Darkness with a spell slot? Some would say yes, many would say no.
Racial spells could arguably be different. Unfortunately, it uses a similar "you know this spell" language, which lends itself to the same logic as Magic Initiate does. But racial spells aren't necessarily learned spells, so they could operate more like a more general once per day (long rest) racial feature instead of casting a spell. That's not quite how they're written, though. Some would argue, though, that yes, you should be able to cast racial spells using spell slots. I'm not sure there's a way to make everyone happy here.


I think the main lesson to draw from this is either;

A) You can only spend spell slots on spells known that match a class you have actual levels in.

or

B) Use the multiclass rule set for spells known and spell slots and don't bother with the class specific restriction ever.

Pick one rule and stick to it. Whether you multiclass or stick to a pure single class, stick to the same rule.
The two don't make sense in trying to apply them both
or

C) For racial spells, Magic Initiate, and any other similar feature, you can only cast it once per long rest if you don't have spell slots. If you do have spell slots, it just counts as an extra spell. This way, a non-caster class still gets their free spell per day, while a caster has the liberty to cast the spell as many times as they have spell slots, but with no free casting.

Eh, just an idea, maybe it's not so great. It does break down if you have multiple such abilities, as a non-caster can cast then each once per day, while a caster might run out of spell slots before using all such features. A 1st level caster only has 2 spell slots, and MI + two racial spells means they can only use 2 out of 3 spells per day.

Generally, I prefer option B. It's a bit min/max-y, sure, but it seems like it would be more fun for the players and not break things too much.

[MrStabby]

The errata has something to say on this. November 2018: http://media.wizards.com/2018/dnd/downloads/PH-Errata.pdf



Magic Initiate (p. 168). The second paragraph has been changed to “In addition,
choose one 1st-level spell to learn from that
same list. Using this feat, you can cast the
spell once at its lowest level, and you must
finish a long rest before you can cast it in
this way again.”


So
A) you know the spell with all that means for being able to cast it.
B) The restriction on casting it once is now explicitly for casting it in that way with magic initiate

So now, I think you just know the spell and can cast it using your spell slots AND can do it once with the feat.

[Aquillion]

Interestingly enough, you could be a Sorcerer/Cleric, take Magic Initiate (Sorcerer), and then cast the Magic Initiate spell using Cleric spell slots.There's no such thing as "Cleric spell slots" in 5e, at least for a multiclass caster.