MAD Barbarian, and my pov

[Shuruke]

So
In my experience as a player, as a dm, and as someone watching from side line.

So for first one

Started at level 3

Ancestral gaurdian u.a
I had fun but was constantly under performing compared to other players
This campaign didnt last long amd dont remember much other than it put bad taste in my mouth for barbarian. I felt like with the fact that u need the 3 physical stats. Your behind for everyrhing else.

Example
Fighter
Str build. You want str con and then its up to you on if you want cha or whatever because heavy armor is rather nice.

Dex build. Dex and con if u want it
But otherwise options are open

Same thing kind of goes for other classes.


Monk has 3 stats as well
However since one stat is wisdom it gives some out of combat ribbons. Perception, insight, medicine


So year and a half later I'm playing barbarian again

I'm enjoying the out of combat more than anything
Dm had us start with a good array and me being me I put my high stat in Str>Int>con=dex
So 18 str
17 int
14 dex
16 con (was 15 but tavern brawler)
Wis 10
Cha 13

I'm an armor wearing barbarian and at level 5 I have half plate because generous DM (gave me Adamantine scale and I sold it because rp reason got it from cultist)

So alot of my issues here felt like dm things
Enemies with 17+ a.c at level 4
a boss had 22

But even in the other fights I felt lackluster compared to the monk and hexblade
Sure I'm reaaallly tanky
(Dm has us roll and then if below average take average. So level 4 had almost 50 hp. Level 5 I have 57)

My main issue has been

-Reckless attack in most scenarios is a trap. (You getting 1-2 attacks at advantage vs. All attacks against you having advantage isnt worth against more than 2 enemies. Especially if they have multiple attacks or riders.)

-Danger Sense only works on things you can see, however if your deafened it doesn't work, or incapacitated. Both campaigns I've played in take this instead of effects u can see as effects you pass a perception check to see. Volley of arrows, traps, etc. This could just be a dm thing but I'm sure I'm not only one this has happened to.

-rage resistances are very nice. But DMs often like to use fun and cool creatures. I havent looked but how many creatures in the monster manual add damage onto attacks or etc that isn't part of resistance. This feels like it comes up alot (yes bear totem solves this , but just because one option of one archetype does , doesnt mean for everything else doesnt feel lackluster.)

-rage feels lackluster. The extra damage doesn't feel like much. Personally id prefer just replacing it with a savage attacker like effect on every attack.

-Lastly (not entirely my opinion only) but the archetypes feel very limited. Alot of time I see people saying Go Bear or Zealot Or your gonna be feeling the way you are (useless) etc.

So now onto next thing

My girlfriend has an ancestral guardian
Standard array
Shieldmaster feat

However
Her Ancestral guardian 3rd level feature has only felt useful a few times
Most of the time things are already hitting her from it being one -three creatures.
Alot of the creatures have been bypassing her rage (fire and force damage is frequent. So is necrotic.)


I understand that
Barbarian is meant to be the DnD tank
And they have some really. Thematic features.

However
The needing 3 stats for a.c damage etc
(Can't do dex barb. Unless u dont wanna use reckless or have rage damage) need dex for decent a.c and need con.


We only feel like we are occasionally tanky

D12 hit dice is nice
2 higher than fighter at level 1, and average of 1 higher (5.5 compared 6.5)

So fifth level barb will have average 6 more hp than a fighter with same con

Fighter will have a 1d10+5 heal per short rest

The barbarian has some fun features but none of it feels like that same kind of assurance for tankiness in the base class.

Am I missing something?

Is this just our view / does it get better with time ? Maybe level 7 ish or something.


Just wanted to see everyones thoughts I am sure people have fun with the class but Idk feels like other classes hit mark better.

[stoutstien]

Ancestral guardian Barbarian are the "hit me not them" subclass. Your features are all based around making it a bad idea to attack anyone but you.
Your party is probably really happy you are there but if you focus on only your damage output your probably picked the wrong subclass.
Don't discount using your attacks to shove a target prone and then dog pile them

[Shuruke]

Ancestral guardian Barbarian are the "hit me not them" subclass. Your features are all based around making it a bad idea to attack anyone but you.
Your party is probably really happy you are there but if you focus on only your damage output your probably picked the wrong subclass.
Don't discount using your attacks to shove a target prone and then dog pile them

Yeah that's what I've been telling her especially since she has shieldmaster

She's only had the feat for one fight
(Hit level 5 in one fight I guess)


Did it few times before then but in intiative monster is often right after her so no one can

Dm also ruled that despite sage advice saying otherwise

An attack roll is anytime you roll a d20 to hit an enemy

Shove and grapple aren't attack rolls thus rage ends if u don't make an attack

[stoutstien]

Yeah that's what I've been telling her especially since she has shieldmaster

She's only had the feat for one fight
(Hit level 5 in one fight I guess)


Did it few times before then but in intiative monster is often right after her so no one can

Dm also ruled that despite sage advice saying otherwise

An attack roll is anytime you roll a d20 to hit an enemy

Shove and grapple aren't attack rolls thus rage ends if u don't make an attack

Your DM is wrong here. Rage ends if you don't attack not if your don't make an attack roll. Both grapple and shoves are special melee attacks. So you can grapple and apply your ancestral guardian effects to really make your point made that they should hit you.

Now I'm wondering what else is going that is reducing your effectiveness

[Shuruke]

Your DM is wrong here. Rage ends if you don't attack not if your don't make an attack roll. Both grapple and shoves are special attacks.

Now I'm wondering what else is going that is reducing your effectiveness

I'm not in her campaign I just know that the dm is simply using this term

In the camapigns I play rage doesn't end for any reason short of being incapacitated and even then feels bit meh

"If there’s ever any question whether something you’re doing counts as an Attack, the rule is simple: if you’re Making an Attack roll, you’re Making an Attack"

[stoutstien]

I'm not in her campaign I just know that the dm is simply using this term

In the camapigns I play rage doesn't end for any reason short of being incapacitated and even then feels bit meh

"If there’s ever any question whether something you’re doing counts as an Attack, the rule is simple: if you’re Making an Attack roll, you’re Making an Attack"
If your phb is open, under the same making an attack section.

Grappling
When you want to grab a creature or wrestle with it, you can make a special melee attack, a grapple.....if you have multiple attacks you can replace one of them ...

Shoving has almost identical wording

[Shuruke]

If your phb is open, under the same making an attack section.

Grappling
When you want to grab a creature or wrestle with it, you can make a special melee attack, a grapple.....if you have multiple attacks you can replace one of them ...

Shoving has almost identical wording

Like I said
I'm not the DM or in campaign
And the DM is adamant on that ruling

Now that she's 5 its not that big of deal
Makes one attack
Bonus action shove
Other attack shove if bonus action doesnt work

Was only deal breaker pre 4

[stoutstien]

Like I said
I'm not the DM or in campaign
And the DM is adamant on that ruling

Now that she's 5 its not that big of deal
Makes one attack
Bonus action shove
Other attack shove if bonus action doesnt work

Was only deal breaker pre 4

original post is about a class feeling lackluster. if a DM is running the game in way that is reducing a large part of what the class is good at then problem is not the class but an individual table problems. I would ask for a reroll or go full BDF and grab PaM and GWM and just go ham

On a cheerful note
The Grapple and shove(prone) combo is wicked can't stand up until they break the grapple. So even with one attack and shield master you can lock down most NPCs.

[Shuruke]

original post is about a class feeling lackluster. if a DM is running the game in way that is reducing a large part of what the class is good at then problem is not the class but an individual table problems. I would ask for a reroll or go full BDF and grab PaM and GWM and just go ham

On a cheerful note
The Grapple and shove(prone) combo is wicked can't stand up until they break the grapple. So even with one attack and shield master you can lock down most NPCs.

The issue is
Theirs 3 examples
Only one of them has that ruling

Even without that ruling when I play I feel lackluster

Her lacklusterness is on how even with shield, rage, she doesnt feel rewarded for being tanky

She doesnt feel like her feature does much cuz the enemy focuses her anyway (difference between incentifizing an enemy to hit you and it just hitting u to begin with.)

I'm not trying to argue I am simply stating that for her the shove ruling isnt an issue, and even with a completely different ruling for rage just not ending for a reason short of incapacitation I feel lackluster

I appreciate the help , I even talked to dm and pointed that out for her as just a the more you know thing , but he isnt worried about changing it because short of her making 3 shove attampts instead of 2 it doesnt chanhe anything

Edit: yeah its a pretty sweet combo just u have to have open hand to grapple meaning no weapon cuz shield :/

[stoutstien]

The issue is
Theirs 3 examples
Only one of them has that ruling

Even without that ruling when I play I feel lackluster

Her lacklusterness is on how even with shield, rage, she doesnt feel rewarded for being tanky

She doesnt feel like her feature does much cuz the enemy focuses her anyway (difference between incentifizing an enemy to hit you and it just hitting u to begin with.)

I'm not trying to argue I am simply stating that for her the shove ruling isnt an issue, and even with a completely different ruling for rage just not ending for a reason short of incapacitation I feel lackluster

I appreciate the help , I even talked to dm and pointed that out for her as just a the more you know thing , but he isnt worried about changing it because short of her making 3 shove attampts instead of 2 it doesnt chanhe anything

Edit: yeah its a pretty sweet combo just u have to have open hand to grapple meaning no weapon cuz shield :/

The DM focusing on the Barbarian is probably done because that is what they think the player wants to happen. With a shield and half-plate your AC is what 18+19? That is pretty high for tier one and should prevent being hit about 3/4 of the time. (Based on normalized +hit chance of lower CR NPCs)

I am also curious about the amount of damage that bypasses Barbarian rage at such a low lv. Maybe they think it shakes things up but low lv attacks should be at most a rider that does damage not pure X type damage. Look in the MM I actually can't find a case where the base attack shouldn't be cut in half by rage outside fire elementals and a few high CR foes.

[Shuruke]

The DM focusing on the Barbarian is probably done because that is what they think the player wants to happen. With a shield and half-plate your AC is what 18+19? That is pretty high for tier one and should prevent being hit about 3/4 of the time. (Based on normalized +hit chance of lower CR NPCs)

I am also curious about the amount of damage that bypasses Barbarian rage at such a low lv. Maybe they think it shakes things up but low lv attacks should be at most a rider that does damage not pure X type damage. Look in the MM I actually can't find a case where the base attack shouldn't be cut in half by rage outside fire elementals and a few high CR foes.

For my character
I have half plate for 17 a.c. (I don't use shield)

She has 16 a.c. 10+2+2+2
Umarmored defense and shield

I think that's what her dm is going for is focusing her, but having an enemy occasionally try hitting someone else so that it occasionally triggers could be nice lool

And I don't know her exact fights , but ghost , salamander, and ankeg are examples that I was told about


My issue is just how stat allocation feels on barb

[stoutstien]

For my character
I have half plate for 17 a.c. (I don't use shield)

She has 16 a.c. 10+2+2+2
Umarmored defense and shield

I think that's what her dm is going for is focusing her, but having an enemy occasionally try hitting someone else so that it occasionally triggers could be nice lool

And I don't know her exact fights , but ghost , salamander, and ankeg are examples that I was told about


My issue is just how stat allocation feels on barb

Well Barb and monks are very MaD but they get alot of return for increasing stats compared to other classes so it's hard to say it's a bad thing.

As far as her table has she voiced to the DM she isn't having fun being a pin cushion? If they are not aware why would they change tactics.
*Ancestral barb could have had an interesting conversation with said ghost.
* Odd ball build but a Dex based ancestral guardian actually works quite well. None of the class features say melee attack so they all work with a bow. You lose out on rage damage and reckless attack but gain being less MAD and can taunt at range. A good change up either way.

[Shuruke]

Well Barb and monks are very MaD but they get alot of return for increasing stats compared to other classes so it's hard to say it's a bad thing.

As far as her table has she voiced to the DM she isn't having fun being a pin cushion? If they are not aware why would they change tactics.
*Ancestral barb could have had an interesting conversation with said ghost.
* Odd ball build but a Dex based ancestral guardian actually works quite well. None of the class features say melee attack so they all work with a bow. You lose out on rage damage and reckless attack but gain being less MAD and can taunt at range. A good change up either way.

Monk gets a mental stat XD which is used out of combat quite well

Con for umarmored is nice cuz a.c and hp

Monk gets a.c and damage from same stat dex

Monk has ability to be better at skills
They can choose dex, or wisdom skills and be pretty good at them
Con isn't as useful. Its a good save and the hp is nice but that's it

I'd rather not compare the two more cuz they fit completely different roles

But I still feel barbarian underwhelming unless your one of 2 choices
Zealot
Bear

I'm sure that with a front line ancestral could be fun to make tanks tankier

[stoutstien]

Monk gets a mental stat XD which is used out of combat quite well

Con for umarmored is nice cuz a.c and hp

Monk gets a.c and damage from same stat dex

Monk has ability to be better at skills
They can choose dex, or wisdom skills and be pretty good at them
Con isn't as useful. Its a good save and the hp is nice but that's it

I'd rather not compare the two more cuz they fit completely different roles

But I still feel barbarian underwhelming unless your one of 2 choices
Zealot
Bear

I'm sure that with a front line ancestral could be fun to make tanks tankier

Con checks should come up alot on the exploration pillar. Extreme weather conditions, walking/ running all day, maybe even holding breath for a deep dive because the wizard didn't learn water breathing. I'd say my players see at least one con check a session and con check are ones you really don't want to fail.

Zealot and totem Barbarian (don't discount wolf) both are strong picks for straight up damage dealers that are hard to kill. I see zealot as the default pick to be a classic Barbarian.
Ancestral is a different in that it is a support focused subclass. Sharing resistance to damage from the hardest hitter in a fight efficiency 2x the party's HP. Hard to measure but definitely a big impact. I've found it to be very good at what it sets out to do.

[Tallytrev813]

For my character
I have half plate for 17 a.c. (I don't use shield)

She has 16 a.c. 10+2+2+2
Umarmored defense and shield

I think that's what her dm is going for is focusing her, but having an enemy occasionally try hitting someone else so that it occasionally triggers could be nice lool

And I don't know her exact fights , but ghost , salamander, and ankeg are examples that I was told about


My issue is just how stat allocation feels on barb

Only 2 Dex and 2 Con?

I just started a barb and were level 3 and i can tell you im - significantly - the most effective in the party at this point (Bard, Wiz, Rogue in party with me).

Granted, i rolled Totem. But still, im 17 Str/17 Con, and when i pick up GWM and start blasting Reckless attack + GWM I think im going to enjoy it greatly.

Having said that - it doesnt look like either of you went that direction...so idk.

[Lyracian]

For my character
I have half plate for 17 a.c. (I don't use shield)
She has 16 a.c. 10+2+2+2
Umarmored defense and shield

Sounds like she needs to put on some Scale Mail to get up to an average 18 AC. Unarmored is thematically nice but you need high dex/con to make it worthwhile.

My wife has Shield Master on her Barbarian. In combat after level 5 (assuming you only have to make a single attack to activate SM)
Make First Attack at Opponent #1 with Advantage due to Reckless.
Bonus Action Shove #1 to the floor.
Move and second attack against opponent #2
Other characters can then attack prone #1

Sure sometimes #1 will be next in the initiative order but that cannot be the case every round!

[strangebloke]

Alright.

I'm going to tell you something really important.

Dexterity and Constitution don't need to be that high.

You have a d12 hit die. The difference between 10 con and 16 is less than 1/2 as much HP as you'd get from the d12 each level. Sure, having a high Constitution is good, but it's not game changing.

Then, Dex. Anything past 14 is whatever. Realistically you won't ever really use the unarmored AC since, as you've noted, it requires you to be super MAD. So you're wearing half plate. Anything over 14 will only help with skills and initiative, and honestly who cares about that?

And really, ac just isn't that big a deal. If you've got some Constitution, you'll have loads of HP, and you'll still be resisting lots of the damage you take. Even if there's lots of fire or whatever you'll still resist lots of other stuff. Pretty much every monster at least has claws or punches or something.

So yeah, ac is not a big deal. Use reckless all day, it's free damage. The enemies have high AC so this is doubly important. Tank with your face, not your armor. Remember, if you kill an enemy because of reckless, you prevented all the damage he could have dealt next turn.

Use your level 3 ability wisely. It comboes really well with the mobile feat. If you hit the boss from range or hit from melee and run away, the boss is basically completely neutered. Its great. Really strong against bosses if there is one.

Grapple/prone combo is awesome. Use it and abuse it.

Rage Savage might seem weak but it really adds up. Barbarians aren't the greatest dpr characters and ancestral barbs aren't good dpr barbarians, but buy yourself a pair of shortswords and you just might surprise yourself. 1d6+4+3+1d6+4+3+1d6+3=28 damage is no joke.

Athletics is the best skill in the game. Good for combat, exploration (climbing/swimming/jumping) kicking down doors... Its just so versatile! Also, if your DM is open to it, strength should be able to be used for things like intimidation and even performance. Who doesn't want a strong man show?

Then we come to your DM. I have words for him. Danger sense requires you to be able to see the threat. But not for you to make a check to see it. He's being unfair here. Rage can maintained while grappling. He's just wrong here. Talk to him about it, but if he's inflexible, whatever. Don't get mad just try to be really pleasant about it.

[Contrast]

-Danger Sense only works on things you can see, however if your deafened it doesn't work, or incapacitated. Both campaigns I've played in take this instead of effects u can see as effects you pass a perception check to see. Volley of arrows, traps, etc. This could just be a dm thing but I'm sure I'm not only one this has happened to.

This is def a DM thing. I've never been denied my Danger Sense even when surprised as long as I wasn't blinded, deafened or incapacitated.

Edit - of yeah and the DM ruling grappling isn't making an attack is just plain wrong. /edit

As for spreading your stats too thin - you really can feel free to just leave dex at 14 and wear armour. Unarmoured defence is an option available but often not the best one.


I'm a little confused that you're saying you felt useless compared to the monk and hexblade when fighting high AC enemies - surely reckless attack would have allowed you to hit high AC people far more often than they could?

[R.Shackleford]

Like I said
I'm not the DM or in campaign
And the DM is adamant on that ruling

Now that she's 5 its not that big of deal
Makes one attack
Bonus action shove
Other attack shove if bonus action doesnt work

Was only deal breaker pre 4

Personally I would get the barbarian killed in some way and then roll up a character that the DM doesn't specifically want to nerf. I guess a caster of some sort... Possibly a hill dwarf evoker.

Side note, this is actually why I hate AL, I see this sort of ruling a lot even when it's against the rules.

[Shuruke]

Only 2 Dex and 2 Con?

I just started a barb and were level 3 and i can tell you im - significantly - the most effective in the party at this point (Bard, Wiz, Rogue in party with me).

Granted, i rolled Totem. But still, im 17 Str/17 Con, and when i pick up GWM and start blasting Reckless attack + GWM I think im going to enjoy it greatly.

Having said that - it doesnt look like either of you went that direction...so idk.

She only has +2 to those because standard array

If you roll for stats getting high stats and being barb isnt as big of deal. However the fact that all 3 physical stats are required to be Good limits u.

And like i said earlier, the class shouldnt be go totem or zealot or welp theirs ypur problem.

I'm enjoying my subclass in stormherald
But would I enjoy it more in fighter Chasis. Yup. yup I would

[Shuruke]

This is def a DM thing. I've never been denied my Danger Sense even when surprised as long as I wasn't blinded, deafened or incapacitated.

Edit - of yeah and the DM ruling grappling isn't making an attack is just plain wrong. /edit

As for spreading your stats too thin - you really can feel free to just leave dex at 14 and wear armour. Unarmoured defence is an option available but often not the best one.


I'm a little confused that you're saying you felt useless compared to the monk and hexblade when fighting high AC enemies - surely reckless attack would have allowed you to hit high AC people far more often than they could?

Reckless wasnt needed we Have a faerie fire druid
Hexblade is Pam vhuman for 2 attacks both at advantage

Monk has 2 attacks one from bonus action martial arts (when using ki he has 3)

Having +6 to hit i was needing 16 or higher to hit said enemy

Dm likes having bosses with 20+ a.c

[Shuruke]

Thanks for all of the help guys, neither of us have really played barb alot, I felt umarmored defense was trap so I jist wear armor even though the other players belittle/nag bout it meh


Gonna talk to g.f see if she wants to look into reallocating stats to feel more useful

[MrStabby]

Barbarians are great at these levels, but you need the right yardstick to measure them.

Firstly the DM has made some unusual calls that have hurt you a bit. It seems like most of these are less relevant now, but don't expect this to be normal.

Secondly, a lot of what you do is passive so you don't easily see what you did. This is also liked to the other party members.

If your party is a hexblade a monk and another barbarian then an ancestral guardian barbarians ability to pull attacks and protect the back line is considerably weaker. Imagine if you has a party with two casters with rubbish AC and low HP concentrating on major spells... that ability to draw attacks to yourself is amazing. As it is you have one caster who is pretty melee capable themselves (probably). The ability to draw attacks is weak. Even more so if you have a second barbarian - another character almost explicitly designed to tank and wants to be hit, your abilities will seem a little wasted.


Now I have only played barabrians as multiclass or in brief campaigns so others might want to weigh in, but there are a few tips that spring to mind.

1) Timing of reckless attack. You have a load of melee in your party. Positioning yourself so that enemies have to take an attack of opportunity if they want to get to you is nice. With so many melee PCs you should be able to have these guys pinned in place.

2) Mobile feat on an ancestral barbarian is pretty funny. Barbarian speed is great for hit and run, you get rage benefits on attacks (be careful you don't run too far!) and you can use reckless attack with much less chance for reprisal.

3) There are other good fun things that can help. Great weapon mastery is popular for a reason - more attacks, more damage and great with reckless attack. This will make you seem relevant.

4) Enjoy endurance. Sure rage is a limited resource, but on those long days when everyone is low on expendable resources and it has been a long time since a short rest you should shine relative to a monk and warlock (frequency of short rests may also be a balance issue here).

[Man_Over_Game]

So, a few things everyone should probably look at when considering the Barbarian:

Rage is good against creatures that are going to have a high chance to hit you, because, unlike AC, it protects you even on a hit.
Reckless Attack is good against fewer creatures, or against creatures who are already going to be able to hit you (as Advantage doesn't do much if you already have an 80% chance to hit).
The main difference between low level and high level characters is how much damage they can output and take. Barbarian ranks fairly high in this regard.



What does this mean? It means that Barbarians are good against bosses. If your boss is going to hit you and the Paladin just fine, you'll be the one lasting twice as long due to Rage. When you and the Paladin have a hard time hitting, you'll be the one landing hits from Reckless Attack. Even if Reckless Attack comes with the penalty of being hit more easily, that won't matter if the enemy already is able to hit you. Additionally, you have about 10% more HP than the rest of the damage-sponge characters, so you have a lot going for you.

As for Ancestral Guardian, there's a bit of interesting points that you REALLY should consider:


It makes it so that the target you hit must attack you or do virtually nothing for the round.
It does not require you to be adjacent to the target for it to work.
It does not require a melee attack for it to work.


So while it might seem a bit...odd, the best case scenario for an Ancestral Guardian is being a skirmisher, using things like Javelins or the Mobile feat to hit the target and run away, effectively causing the target to lose value out of its rounds (having to choose between chasing the Barbarian that they can't catch, or hitting one of the Barbarian's teammates for half damage and Disadvantage and the Shield effect).

Ancestral Guardian ONLY has value if the target has a reason to attack someone that's not you, so give the target a reason. As many reasons as you possibly can. Make your teammates have Sentinel, or make your other Barbarian friend be a Wolf Totem Barbarian, or work alongside a Death Cleric who cleans things up in melee combat.

[GlenSmash!]

Alright.

I'm going to tell you something really important.

Dexterity and Constitution don't need to be that high.


Yup big time this. I'm currently playing a Zealot that has 16, 14, 14, 9, 14, 8. I took resilient Wisdom at level one and GWM at level 4. I picked up a Giant Slayer greataxe a couple sessions ago I wear a chain shirt for a messily 15 AC

I've grappled and shoved a big bad off of the edge of a cloud castle. I've used GWM -5/+10 to drop 3 Shadows in one turn saving our low strength characters from almost certain death. I reckless attack all the time if I don't have advantage from another source, or when I'm out of rages.

In weekly sessions since August I have dropped to 0 hp twice, maybe three times, though as a Zealot dying would be a minor inconvenience.

I'll be moving up to half-plate next time I'm in a town, but I've never felt like I needed more AC. When fighting Dragons and giants, they are going to hit you anyway. More HP would be better, but I don't feel the need to bump Con one bit. And even without pumping Strength to 18 I've never had a problem landing hits due to reckless attack.

All in all I feel like a wrecking machine.