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Avista
2019-05-03, 04:36 AM
After writing up my character's backstory, I've realized the her alignment is the polar opposite to her family. I was aiming for the family to be true neutral, but an alignment test said they're lawful evil instead, and I agree. Now I'm trying to figure out how they can all maintain a healthy relationship and why they'd still be on good terms.

My character is Chaotic good. She wants to help the poor, protect the weak, and secretly cause disorder if it suits the greater good.

Her family is lawful evil. They takes every advantage to game the system for every chance to stay above. Everyone below is a stepping stone up the social ladder. Those above provide protection in exchange for loyalty.

It makes sense why my character ends up chaotic good if she rebels her family's values. They all still care for each other, they just see the other as doing the wrong thing. But if she's a liability, what reasoning stops outright abandonment? And why would my character not estrange herself from her family?

Galithar
2019-05-03, 05:02 AM
Lawful characters would have a code they follow, that could easily include casting for family and protecting them.

Good characters would want to help their family because it's the 'right thing to do'.

They can not get along and still be family and look out for one another.

Florian
2019-05-03, 05:10 AM
I donīt really see the problem there. Alignment is a philosophy, how you understand the world to function. Descriptive, not prescriptive. I don't necessarily have to agree with my parents to still be related and keep up a relationship there and so on.

Glorthindel
2019-05-03, 06:22 AM
The obvious first solution is that both 'groups' still love the other, and assumes with time and (in the Good characters opinion) leading by example, or (in the Evil characters opinions) being ground down by the reality of the world around them, they will come around to the other groups line of thinking. And until that time, the group will do their upmost to shield their loved ones from the folly of their beliefs, in the best way they can.

If the groups are more estranged (or become more into open conflict) as events progress, there is still plenty of reasons to pull together despite their beliefs.

No matter what, the Good character will want to redeem as much of their Evil family as possible. Even if they deem some members irredeemable, they would want to play it softly to 'save' as many other members as possible, and be aware that going full aggressive opposition would only risk pushing those teetering on the edge of redemption further into the darkness.

And conversely, even if some Evil family members deem the Good character dangerous liability, they would be conscious of presenting a weakness to possible enemies. Driving off a family member weakens perceptions of the families strength, and highlights a potential ally for their enemies to court, and just straight out disposing of the errant family member (even without evidence, the suspicion would be enough at upper class circles) would seem like the family is losing control of itself, and acting irrationally, and potentially cause the vultures to circle.

In general, the easiest avenue to follow is that despite their differences they do still love each other, but if that becomes a stretch, there are plenty of reasons why both sides would prefer to project an illusion of unity to continue their own objectives.

Kyutaru
2019-05-03, 07:08 AM
Just dumb it down to basic.

The evil family wants to selfishly guard everything that is theirs, including their offspring. The good character wants to protect everyone already, more so their own flesh and blood.

The family doesn't necessarily want to abandon someone who doesn't see the family ideals, it just becomes a talking point the two disagree on. Political views in real life can be split in a family without it ripping the family apart. Some families even have differing religions with their daughter running off and converting for marriage. The good person isn't a liability unless they're directly involved in the family business. Even if they are, they might be the future change the company needs and the evil family might do try to convince them to see things their way or they might just have given up years ago when they were teenagers. Not every Good or Evil person has this unquenchable urge to prove everyone else wrong or force them to agree with them.

Your character meanwhile has no reason to abandon her family unless she's disgusted by them wholeheartedly. She may not agree with how they conduct business, and I have some firsthand experience with that subject, but it's not her place to tell them how to run their lives. She can be suggesting, hopeful even, but ultimately leave others to the ways that work for them.

Simplest way to avoid getting stressed out by your parents? Don't live with them. Everyone gets along fine then.

Frozen_Feet
2019-05-03, 07:36 AM
This actually pretty simple. Law is characterized by placing groups above individuals. Lawful Evil is further characterized by putting their group over other groups.

Long story short, your character's parents tolerate your character because they still see your character as part of the same, privileged group. They haven't really gotten the hint that your character has abandoned their herd mentality and is putting wellfare of others above the wellfare of family. They think it's just a phase and your character will eventually come around and embrace family values once more.

You can probably think a good number of real-life parents who are kinda dim like that.

Meanwhile, your character still has rosy-tinted glasses on regarding their parents. They think that one day, their family will come around and accept them and their new values as equally important.

You can probably think of a good number of real-life young people who are kinda dim like that.

The whole estrangement thing really happens only happens upon the realization that no, things are not going to change. There will not be coming around or reconcilation. This usually happens decades too late. You can probably think of a good number of real-life people who were kinda dim like that.

Jay R
2019-05-03, 08:00 AM
I love my family and get along with them despite extreme differences in philosophy and approach.

I couldn't go into business with them, but that's not what families do.

Vorpal Glaive
2019-05-03, 03:43 PM
I love my family and get along with them despite extreme differences in philosophy and approach.

I couldn't go into business with them, but that's not what families do.
Exactly. Even CE characters can love someone.

redwizard007
2019-05-03, 08:51 PM
After writing up my character's backstory, I've realized the her alignment is the polar opposite to her family. I was aiming for the family to be true neutral, but an alignment test said they're lawful evil instead, and I agree. Now I'm trying to figure out how they can all maintain a healthy relationship and why they'd still be on good terms.

My character is Chaotic good. She wants to help the poor, protect the weak, and secretly cause disorder if it suits the greater good.

Her family is lawful evil. They takes every advantage to game the system for every chance to stay above. Everyone below is a stepping stone up the social ladder. Those above provide protection in exchange for loyalty.

It makes sense why my character ends up chaotic good if she rebels her family's values. They all still care for each other, they just see the other as doing the wrong thing. But if she's a liability, what reasoning stops outright abandonment? And why would my character not estrange herself from her family?

If your family is conservative and you are progressive do you stop loving one another?

If you disagree with your family over who should head the central bank do you stop loving one another?

If you emigrated to another nation do you stop loving one another?

If you converted to another religion do you stop loving one another?

Why on Earth would alignment have anything to do with family?

Mastikator
2019-05-04, 12:43 AM
I donīt really see the problem there. Alignment is a philosophy, how you understand the world to function. Descriptive, not prescriptive. I don't necessarily have to agree with my parents to still be related and keep up a relationship there and so on.

But if they are hurting people you care about or if you are getting in the way of their hurting people you care about that would put a monkey wrench in the cogwheels of family relations.

Avista
2019-05-04, 01:03 AM
I love the idea of 'good wants to redeem, evil wants reality check'. But I should also bring up that the evil family have commited some pretty vile acts - all within law abiding society, but evil nonetheless. It wouldn't be as basic as different opinions on politics or religion.

For context, the family runs an apothecary. They're upper-middle nouveau riche, not noble. Got the plague? We got the cure right here. Can't afford it? Sucks to be you, peasant. Yes Mr. Noble, you want an untraceable poisonous concoction to slip into your father's wine? We can get that for you, no problem. No one will be the wiser. It's just the rules of succession, after all. We can even recommend a guy to do it for you.

Florian
2019-05-04, 05:12 AM
I love the idea of 'good wants to redeem, evil wants reality check'. But I should also bring up that the evil family have commited some pretty vile acts - all within law abiding society, but evil nonetheless. It wouldn't be as basic as different opinions on politics or religion.

For context, the family runs an apothecary. They're upper-middle nouveau riche, not noble. Got the plague? We got the cure right here. Can't afford it? Sucks to be you, peasant. Yes Mr. Noble, you want an untraceable poisonous concoction to slip into your father's wine? We can get that for you, no problem. No one will be the wiser. It's just the rules of succession, after all. We can even recommend a guy to do it for you.

Your question still confuses me.

So the family is successful by being in a shady business while living in a society/country that promote shady businesses? That's basically like being against tax fraud while in a country where tax fraud is the only way to make a living.

dndad
2019-05-04, 07:34 AM
I love the idea of 'good wants to redeem, evil wants reality check'. But I should also bring up that the evil family have commited some pretty vile acts - all within law abiding society, but evil nonetheless. It wouldn't be as basic as different opinions on politics or religion.

For context, the family runs an apothecary. They're upper-middle nouveau riche, not noble. Got the plague? We got the cure right here. Can't afford it? Sucks to be you, peasant. Yes Mr. Noble, you want an untraceable poisonous concoction to slip into your father's wine? We can get that for you, no problem. No one will be the wiser. It's just the rules of succession, after all. We can even recommend a guy to do it for you.

It helps to look at those acts from within their society, not our own. Is this a land with universal healthcare, where access to medical treatment is a right? Is the plague cure easily manufactured limitless in supply? If not, the family can certainly defend their actions ("We have to make a living too! Do you know how hard it is to make this stuff?!"). The good character might disagree, even strongly, but I imagine she'd be hard pressed to completely condemn her family for their actions. She'd at least understand them, even if she believes they'd be better served by taking alternative approaches to business.

Besides, both groups can have rational approaches to life that leads them in diametrically opposed directions and still love each other, because love isn't rational. It just is.

One question for you: has the PC's family done anything evil to someone she knows and cares about? If they haven't, it's much easier for her to justify her family's actions as "bad, but not that bad". So long as the evil is abstract, and she isn't confronted directly by it, her love of her family will doing everything it can to provide excuses and rationalize why their actions aren't as terrible; if for no other reason than to give her hope she can reform them.

Frozen_Feet
2019-05-04, 11:26 AM
Your question still confuses me.

So the family is successful by being in a shady business while living in a society/country that promote shady businesses? That's basically like being against tax fraud while in a country where tax fraud is the only way to make a living.
Why does it confuse you?

I mean, Chaotic Good is basically tailormade for young rebellious progressive hippie types who go out on the streets protesting & fighting THE MAN while their sane & conservative Lawful Evil parents watch from the sidelines, sigh, and then go back to oppressing the poor while muttering something about "youthfull naivete".

See also: Elan and his dad in this obscuse fantasy webcomic called Order of the Stick. :smallwink:

AMFV
2019-05-04, 11:39 AM
I wouldn't say that LE is a more realistic world view than CG. I mean Elan's dad certainly had a skewed view of the world in the comic. LE and CG both believe their viewpoints to be the rational reasonable one, because most people believe their viewpoints to be both rational and reasonable. But they're starting out with different values, so different things will make sense to them.

Frozen_Feet
2019-05-04, 11:51 AM
It's not really about realism, per se, but about funny ideas like being good-hearted going hand-in-hand with being kinda dim (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DumbIsGood) , and being smart and pragmatic going hand in hand with being an *******. (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SmartJerkAndNiceMoron)

AMFV
2019-05-04, 11:55 AM
It's not really about realism, per se, but about funny ideas like being good-hearted going hand-in-hand with being kinda dim (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DumbIsGood) , and being smart and pragmatic going hand in hand with being an *******. (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SmartJerkAndNiceMoron)

But that's not true though, at least not in most settings. Sure in OOtS, Elan is good and dumb and Tarquin is Evil and (arguably) smart. But you also have Good is not Dumb, and there are dozens of examples of Good trickster characters who would certainly be CG in fiction and myth. And plenty of examples of officious bureaucrats who are dumb as bricks and LE.

Put it this way:
CG includes people like Elan, yes. But it also includes people like Coyote or Prometheus. In some incarnations anyways. It includes Robin Hood (probably, depending on writers) you include many not dumb archetypes as well.

LE includes people like Tarquin, yes. But you also have the Vogons and the DMV and many other things that people recognize are both stupid and evil. It's a spectrum.

Frozen_Feet
2019-05-04, 12:38 PM
Protip: when I'm talking of something as a "funny idea", I probably don't mean "this is true & you should take it with utmost gravity". :smallamused:

AMFV
2019-05-04, 01:23 PM
Protip: when I'm talking of something as a "funny idea", I probably don't mean "this is true & you should take it with utmost gravity". :smallamused:

What about me taking a couple minutes to respond with counter examples (most of which were also funny) and one sentence even included a reference to tropes as well, suggested that I was taking it with upmost gravity.

Florian
2019-05-04, 02:10 PM
Why does it confuse you?

That the question is somehow tied to alignments instead of people and their interactions.

The philosophies (or rather, cosmic camps, really) of CG and LE might be polar opposites, but that has practically no impact unless we talk about classes that are directly powered by these forces, therefore tied to them.

Ok, I use PF terms for emphasis here: So you live in Cheliax and you were born and raised in a family that are prospering because they understand the cheliaxan way of life. Cheliax is the poster child of a LE society run by a class of nobles who are devil worshippers, but is open to nearly any alignment or religion, as long as they manage to fit into this society. As in, the country hosts various Paladin orders and nobody will condemn someone else for being charitable and running a soup kitchen to feed the poor and such.

So unless you are playing a Cleric of Milani and gain you powers by following the goddess of rebels, I don't see any conflict there that is based on alignment. The family is acting in the accepted morality range of the host country, the child is rejecting this morality for whatever reason, so kind of a punk, that's it, they are still family unless one of them deliberately starts to reject the other based on their difference and being willing to cut the ties.

Avista
2019-05-04, 02:26 PM
One question for you: has the PC's family done anything evil to someone she knows and cares about? If they haven't, it's much easier for her to justify her family's actions as "bad, but not that bad". So long as the evil is abstract, and she isn't confronted directly by it, her love of her family will doing everything it can to provide excuses and rationalize why their actions aren't as terrible; if for no other reason than to give her hope she can reform them.

Actually no, they haven't. They'd be likely to protect anyone that they've established ties with. Thanks for that point.

Frozen_Feet
2019-05-04, 02:34 PM
Alignments correspond to philosophies and philosophies correspond to general inclinations in people. In this particular case, Law versus Chaos corresponds to collectivism versus individualism, or "you will marry a nice honorable man and form a nice family, just like I did in your age!" versus "but mom, I want to be my own person!" Meanwhile Good versus Evil corresponds to altruism versus egoism, or "those downtrodden people deserve the same rights as me!" versus "they're weak & lazy & deserve to suffer, so focus on your own career so you won't end up like them, sweetheart".

It's archetypical, really.

Florian
2019-05-04, 03:09 PM
Alignments correspond to philosophies and philosophies correspond to general inclinations in people. In this particular case, Law versus Chaos corresponds to collectivism versus individualism, or "you will marry a nice honorable man and form a nice family, just like I did in your age!" versus "but mom, I want to be my own person!" Meanwhile Good versus Evil corresponds to altruism versus egoism, or "those downtrodden people deserve the same rights as me!" versus "they're weak & lazy & deserve to suffer, so focus on your own career so you won't end up like them, sweetheart".

It's archetypical, really.

Still descriptive, not prescriptive.

Frozen_Feet
2019-05-04, 03:11 PM
*snort*

Well played. :smallamused:

FaerieGodfather
2019-05-04, 09:10 PM
Your character can say anything she wants about the things her family does, because she's always going to be the reason they do them.