[3.5] Sir Saves-a-lot

[Thurbane]

How would you go about building the following character:


Full (or close to full) casting.
Decent base saves.
Class abilities and feats focused around boosting saving throws, re-rolling saves and otherwise being unlikely to fail saves.
Mettle, Evasion or Improved Evasion abilities a bonus.

Limits for my use: 1st party sources only, no dragon mag, no psionics, no incarnum.

No Prestigious Character Classes (i.e. Prestige Paladin), Generic Classes (i.e. Spellcaster) or Spontaneous Divine Casters (i.e. Spontaneous Cleric) are allowed. Also, no Gestalt.

I'm thinking maybe Favored Soul as the base class, since they get all good saves, and full casting?

PrCs to get Luck or Destiny domain access, evasion and other goodies would be nice.

Cheers - T

[heavyfuel]

I'd definitely try to incorporate 2lvs of Fatespinner (C.arc Prc) into the build for 1/day reroll.

Although it requires Arcane Spellcasting to qualify, it actually progresses any spellcasting.

You also 100% want Resurgence as one of your spells known, regardless of class.

[Thurbane]

I'd definitely try to incorporate 2lvs of Fatespinner (C.arc Prc) into the build for 1/day reroll.

Although it requires Arcane Spellcasting to qualify, it actually progresses any spellcasting.

Hmm, Southern Magician might get a Favored Soul in...

[MaxiDuRaritry]

First of all, use fractional saves.

The build should dip as many different classes as possible, focusing on those with good Will saves. Each 1 level dip grants +2.5 to good saves. Continue pumping Will saves as much as you can. Buy Iron Will via Otyugh Hole, for instance.

Mettle, of course, for Will save evasion.

Next, take Wedded to History (Survivor), so you can sub out any save for a Will save, albeit at an escalating -2 penalty.

Then take levels in serene guardian from The Shattered Gates of Slaughtergarde for Unclouded Mind (Ex): After any failed Will save, you can roll Concentration check and take that as the saving throw result; Concentration checks do not auto-fail on a natural 1. Alternately (and preferably), three levels in illithid savant. Obviously, you'll be pumping Concentration as much as you can, as well.

Or you can also take some swordsage for some Diamond Mind maneuvers to replace saving throws with Concentration checks, then pump that. With, of course, some cleric and RKV for more swift actions to convert into immediate actions.

There you go.

[OgresAreCute]

DMM: Persist Cleric. Go for some melee damage and persist Sadism from BoVD. Gives you a +1 luck bonus to attacks and saves for 1 round per 10 damage you deal in the preceding round. On my level 9/10 character now I pretty much have +10 or more to all saves just from this every round.

Not to mention your class has full casting and two good saves natively.

[Thurbane]

First of all, use fractional saves.

Not an option at our games, unfortunately.


Next, take Wedded to History (Survivor), so you can sub out any save for a Will save, albeit at an escalating -2 penalty.

Isn't that Dragon magazine? If so, no go...


Then take levels in serene guardian from The Shattered Gates of Slaughtergarde for Unclouded Mind (Ex): After any failed Will save, you can roll Concentration check and take that as the saving throw result; Concentration checks do not auto-fail on a natural 1. Alternately (and preferably), three levels in illithid savant. Obviously, you'll be pumping Concentration as much as you can, as well.

Or you can also take some swordsage for some Diamond Mind maneuvers to replace saving throws with Concentration checks, then pump that. With, of course, some cleric and RKV for more swift actions to convert into immediate actions.

There you go.

Good ideas, but a lot of lost casting levels in there. RKV may be an option.


DMM: Persist Cleric. Go for some melee damage and persist Sadism from BoVD. Gives you a +1 luck bonus to attacks and saves for 1 round per 10 damage you deal in the preceding round. On my level 9/10 character now I pretty much have +10 or more to all saves just from this every round.

Not to mention your class has full casting and two good saves natively.

Interesting. I really prefer spontaneous casters, but I'll keep this in mind.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Not an option at our games, unfortunately.:smallfrown:


Isn't that Dragon magazine? If so, no go...More :smallfrown:


Good ideas, but a lot of lost casting levels in there. RKV may be an option.I prefer using psionics pretty much 100% of the time. The fact that you can't (or don't want to) makes me :smallfrown:. Supernatural Transformation (Psionics) would mean that any and all dips in manifesting classes would have manifester levels equal to your HD, which makes dipping a lot nicer.

Basically what I'm getting at is :smallfrown:.

Though you could still use swordsage's Diamond Mind maneuvers and serene guardian to sub out saves for Concentration checks.

[Particle_Man]

Luck feats could help. I think there is even a caster prestige class or two that help with luck feats. Fortune’s Favoured? In Complete Scoundrel anyhow.

[Anthrowhale]

Divine Oracle 2 is the right way to pick up evasion (actually, better than evasion) on a full caster.

I don't think there's an equivalent for Mettle, but Pious Templar 1 results in losing just one level of spell advancement.

Prestige Paladin grants +Cha to saves while losing only one level of spell advancement. This can be shifted to Wisdom using the Serenity feat. Wisdom can be buffed much higher via Owl's Insight.
Another, plausibly cumulative version of this is around the Witch Hunter.

Steadfast Determination + Polymorph grant's amazing will saves.

Battle Blessing and Alter Fortune are good spells. At high levels, Choose Destiny is great as well.

There's also some feat, (Divine ??) which adds a save to divine spells that don't otherwise have a save.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Three levels in illithid savant, consume an aleax of yourself (or an ice assassin thereof) for singular enemy to make saving throws against attacks against you completely moot? You'll still have to deal with environmental dangers, but those aren't terribly difficult, generally.

Also, acquire as many immunities as possible (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?186950-Accumulating-Immunities) to avoid saving throws altogether. Note that alter self and polymorph can do at least some of that on their own.

[PanosIs]

Do you have any flavor limitations? Additionally, are you looking to maximize saves at the expense of everything else not mentioned, or just have a character with great saves?

On the favored soul idea, I'd really just go for Spontaneous Cleric instead, having domains and turn undead by default is of great aid. If you don't want to do that then a 1-level dip in sacred exorcist can get you Turn Undead.

Some interesting tools:


Divine FortunePlayer's Handbook II allows you to burn a Turn attempt to get a +4 on a save as an immediate action
Persistent RefusalFiendish Codex II allows you to burn a Turn attempt to resave against an effect as a swift action (A reasonable ruling is that you can use this even if you can't take actions since in the example it is used against a Hold spell
Pious DefianceFiendish Codex II allows you to burn a Turn attempt to get +1/2 character level to Will saves for 1 round as an immediate action
Prestige Paladin 2 gets you Divine Grace for +Charisma to saves at a loss of a single caster level, with a 3/4 BAB class you can qualify around the 7th level. SerenityDragon Compendium allows you to use Wisdom instead of Charisma for less attribute dependencies
I'm not a fan of obscure weird domains but Pride domain does allow you to reroll all natural 1s on saves
Unnatural WillHeroes of Horror allows you to stack Charisma on top of Wisdom for Will saves

[Biggus]

This thread may be of use:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?125732-3-x-X-stat-to-Y-bonus

[Eldariel]

Hmm... It's hard to do this with full casting. Cleric 1 is so delicious (Pride domain and Luck domain and turning) but the only way to do full casting Mettle + Evasion I know of is Master Specialist: Abjurer 7. Cleric 1/Abjurer is actually a really good build anyways (opens up Divine Defiance too, which goes perfectly with Abjurer) but straight Cleric would obviously be preferable.

Cleric 1/Abjurer 1/Master Specialist 7 gets both by level 9. The base saves aren't all that but with spell access it's good enough. Sadly you're a spell level behind though and miss out on the really delicious 5th level buffs. Of course, when you're losing casting you could indeed just dip Kinslayer, Pious Templar or whatever for the Mettle and thus this is no better than a Cleric-base build (worse, probably, since a Cleric has an easier time getting all the save-buffing effects persisted).

[PanosIs]

Here's what I would make with two lost caster levels, can afford one more to get mettle from pious templar:


Human Spontaneous Cleric 6/Fortune's Friend 2/Prestige Paladin 2 into Divine Oracle, Fatespinner or just more Cleric

Str 10 Dex 8 Con 14 Int 10 Wis 20 Cha 14
Base Attack Bonus: +7
Saves Fort +15 Ref +10 Will +15

Domains: Luck is the one that matters
Luck: 5 luck rerolls per day, reroll Saves and Initiative
Turn Undead: 5 times per day, can expend at an immediate action to get +4 to a save with Divine Fortune

Feats: (4+2)
Divine Fortune
Mounted Combat
Serenity
Survivor's Luck

Lucky StartHuman
Unbelievable LuckFortune's Friend

[RedMage125]

If you weren't insistent on being a caster, I would suggest a Monk/Paladin multiclass (with Ascetic knight or whatever that feat's called), mostly Monk. Enough levels in Monk gets you Improved Evasion, with high base saves, add CHA modifier to all of those. Build is hella MAD, but should have decent DEX and WIS, which shores up those Reflex and Will Saves, and the Paladin levels shore up the Fort saves. I THINK Pious Templar PrC can freely multiclass with Monk and Paladin, too. So a 1-level dip in that gets you Mettle.


Without consulting books and just going off memory, that's the only way I can think of to get Improved Evasion, Mettle, and good saves across the board. But that is certainly a character I would call "Sir Saves-A-Lot"

[PanosIs]

Hmm... It's hard to do this with full casting. Cleric 1 is so delicious (Pride domain and Luck domain and turning) but the only way to do full casting Mettle + Evasion I know of is Master Specialist: Abjurer 7. Cleric 1/Abjurer is actually a really good build anyways (opens up Divine Defiance too, which goes perfectly with Abjurer) but straight Cleric would obviously be preferable.

Cleric 1/Abjurer 1/Master Specialist 7 gets both by level 9. The base saves aren't all that but with spell access it's good enough. Sadly you're a spell level behind though and miss out on the really delicious 5th level buffs. Of course, when you're losing casting you could indeed just dip Kinslayer, Pious Templar or whatever for the Mettle and thus this is no better than a Cleric-base build (worse, probably, since a Cleric has an easier time getting all the save-buffing effects persisted).

I like this build a lot, although I am a bit averse to dipping cleric, maybe the same can be done by going Sacred Exorcist? Loose out on domains, but get turning and +1 caster level. Wizard 3/Master Specialist 7 into Sacred Exorcist works, if being a bit late, but base saves suffer quite a bit, at least Cleric pads those.

[Eldariel]

I like this build a lot, although I am a bit averse to dipping cleric, maybe the same can be done by going Sacred Exorcist? Loose out on domains, but get turning and +1 caster level. Wizard 3/Master Specialist 7 into Sacred Exorcist works, if being a bit late, but base saves suffer quite a bit, at least Cleric pads those.

Well, Cleric 1 does 4 things:
- Gets you divine caster level for Divine Defiance (arguably accomplishable via. Southern Magician too though sorta)
- Gets you turning for Divine Defiance (accomplishable via. Sacred Exorcist rather easily)
- +2/+0/+2 base saves (just multiclass more, I guess)
- Gets you two domains (Luck for reroll and Pride for reroll 1s is pretty decent for instance)

All but the saves can be accomplished via other routes but that's of course fairly feat intensive. Of course, if you drop the counterspelling, all you need is the domains (Planar Touchstone, Domain Granted Power, etc. give you access to them) which is quite doable. Not a bad build. Precocious Apprentice at least on Focused Specialist chassis allows for Wizard 2/Master Specialist since you only need 2nd level spells and 5 ranks to enter MS.

[Mr Adventurer]

Does RKV grant extra immediate actions? If it only grants Swift actions, that's much more limited: using an Immediate action (when it's not your turn) uses up your Swift, but if you then buy more Swifts on your turn, you don't have more Immediates.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Does RKV grant extra immediate actions? If it only grants Swift actions, that's much more limited: using an Immediate action (when it's not your turn) uses up your Swift, but if you then buy more Swifts on your turn, you don't have more Immediates.It grants swift actions, but you can use an immediate so long as you have a swift to burn on your next turn. Which means RKV should allow you to use immediates so long as you convert turn attempts to swifts on your following turn...

[edit] How about procuring a +1 morphing/sizing zero-wishes luck blade and using this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?246396-Another-Addition-To-The-Tippyverse) to get a ton of them? Wear 'em as braid blades, sleeve blades, boot blades, etc etc etc? You'll get tons of rerolls per day for pretty cheap.

[Mr Adventurer]

It grants swift actions, but you can use an immediate so long as you have a swift to burn on your next turn. Which means RKV should allow you to use immediates so long as you convert turn attempts to swifts on your following turn...

.

No it shouldn't, because at the time of using the Immediate, you don't have multiple Swifts.

Is this a common interpretation? To me, it's like saying "I'm not actually at -8 hit points because I'll cast a Cure spell on my next turn."

[Anthrowhale]

There's also some feat, (Divine ??) which adds a save to divine spells that don't otherwise have a save.

This is Divine Denial. One of the few ways to get around Blasphemy, as an example.

In a similar vein, there is Font of Life, which grants a save against energy drain / negative levels.

[MultitudeMan]

There's a thread on here from back in 2013 called "Tippy's Terrifically Terrible Trial" (can't quite figure out how to link it, sorry) in which Emperor Tippy challenged people to build an ECL 20 character with 17 levels of Monk that could solo every challenge in the Elder Evils book. These builds were invariably nearly unkillable, and one build (post #73) included effective Wizard level of 15, while Xervous's build "Kid Icarus" (post #249) had +39 Will save, +35 Reflex save, and +30 Fortitude save, and Pride domain for rerolls. I think they include some Dragon mag material, but there might be some relevant ideas here.

[Sian]

Prestige Paladin 2 for Divine Grace might be a reasonable addition if your casting is Divine

[OgresAreCute]

Interesting. I really prefer spontaneous casters, but I'll keep this in mind.

You could use Spontaneous Cleric and just learn Sadism as a spell. A bunch of the tasty persistable spells like righteous might and divine power can be picked up through domains like competition so you don't need to spend so many spells known on it. Otherwise you could find some way to grab a whole bunch of domains (sovereign speaker if you can use eberron mats and don't mind losing a caster level) and then take the spontaneous domains ACF to have pseudo-spontaneous casting if your domains are good enough. Also remember to dip around for things like inquisition and oracle domains and then take a level in contemplative when you're high enough level.

[zlefin]

My first inclination would be to focus on the Diamond mind saves; since casters tend to max out concentration anyways; and it's feasible to pump those saves high enough that they're an automatic save.
then you just need to work on the issue of recovering them fast, and avoiding needing more than one in a round.
whatever other methods you find, having a once/round auto-save is just too useful.

[Jack_Simth]

Sorcerer + prestige classes for the base. Pump Charisma. Take Planar Touchstone for The Catalogues of Enlightenment, Pride Domain power. Then Shapechange into a Nymph or Gloura.

Lower levels, you can do something similar via Assume Supernatural Ability and Polymorph Any Object.

Also: Persist three copies of Ruin Delver's Fortune. Requires some metamagic reduction.

[tiercel]

My first inclination would be to focus on the Diamond mind saves; since casters tend to max out concentration anyways; and it's feasible to pump those saves high enough that they're an automatic save.
then you just need to work on the issue of recovering them fast, and avoiding needing more than one in a round.
whatever other methods you find, having a once/round auto-save is just too useful.

Also because skill checks don't crit-fail on a natural 1, also also because Steadfast Determination (RoS) lets you automatically take 10 on all Concentration checks. Stance of Alacrity can get you a second counter per round, but that's a high (8th!) level stance, so it comes online late and requires significant investment in initiator level...

...which kind of sounds like RKV (and pick up extra swift actions to boot, plus all the standard cleric/initiator shenanigans).

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

By full or near full caster, does a martial adept qualify? You can probably do this without losing too many caster levels, actually. Use the Idiot Crusader trick, dip Master of the Nine, and maybe take Martial Study once to get Moment of Perfect Mind, Action Before Thought, and Mind Over Body as Crusader maneuvers known, and have as many maneuvers readied as granted so you always have them available every round. Take Perform: Weapon Drill (CW) and get a continuous item of Undersong (SC) or just cast it persistent every day, which allows you to make a perform check in place of a concentration check.

So you have a character who can replace any save with a concentration check as an immediate action, but then make a perform check by flourishing his weapon in place of that concentration check. Stuff like cutting a fireball in half so it passes harmlessly on either side of you level of cool tricks. Maybe use this on a Sublime Chord build?

[Biggus]

Clerics are really where it's at if you want to pump saves. As well as the domains, in the Spell Compendium there's Greater/ Superior Resistance (last 24hrs), Conviction (lasts 10 mins/ level, is level 1 so easy to extend), Recitation (which can be persisted) and Hand of Divinity (low enough level to be Quickened, eg with a Circlet of Rapid Casting (MiC)), which all stack for a total of +11 by level 7 and +15 by level 12.

Don't be too hung up on getting all three good saves: the difference between a good and poor saves isn't that big at low levels, and at high levels there are much larger bonuses available than the difference between them. Also a Cleric can cast Divine Agility (SC) which gives a +10 enhancement bonus to Dexterity and hence +5 to reflex saves, and there's Grace (SC), Greater Visage of the Deity (SC) and Elation (BoED) all of which boost Dexterity and stack, and these last three can be persisted.

Best build I can see is Cleric 5/ prestige Paladin 3/ Divine Oracle 2/ Contemplative 6/ whatever 4, for +Charisma to saves, armored evasion, two bonus domains, and slippery mind. If you're willing to give up a second caster level Pious Templar 1 for mettle instead of prestige Paladin 3. As far as I know all of these should still work with spontaneous Cleric.

The Pride domain is a must-have: if you can get to the point where most of the saves you make you only fail on a natural 1 (which should be doable by mid-levels) this reduces the chance of failure from 1 in 20 to 1 in 400.

If you're evil, as well as persisted Sadism there's the Evil's Blessing feat (Elder Evils) which takes a standard action to activate, but gives you a profane bonus to saves equal to your Charisma for 5 rounds, and during any round in which you deal damage to a creature of the good subtype or a creature that radiates an aura of good, the bonus is doubled.

If you're using the Rules Compendium version of wands where it takes the same amount of time to activate them as it does to cast the spell they contain, get a wand of Ruin Delver's Fortune (SC), and use UMD boosted by the spell Divine Insight (SC) to activate it. At higher levels, get a Casting Glove (MiC) and you don't even need to be holding it. Alternatively, you could get it via the Extra Spell feat if your DM lets you take spells from outside your class list with it.

Failing that, the feat Divine Fortune (PHB2) allows you to spend a turn attempt to get a +4 untyped bonus to a save as an immediate action.

Mysticism domain (SC) gets you your Charisma modifier as a luck bonus to saves once a day for 1 round/ level, free action to activate. Useful if you don't have Sadism or Ruin Delver's Fortune.

Spells from other classes which are useful if you can get them include Owl's Insight and Aura of Vitality from the Druid list (both SC) and Nixie's Grace (SC), Snowsong (FB) and Inner Beauty (FC1) from the Bard list.

Magic items of note include the Tabard of Valor (Complete Champion) which gives you mettle when your HPs drop to less than half maximum, or improved mettle if you already have it, the Headband of Conscious Effort which enables you to substitute a Concentration skill check for a Fortitude save 1/day (MiC, only 2,000GP) and the Crystal Mask of Mindarmor (MiC) which gives a +4 Insight bonus to will saves.

[flappeercraft]

Might not be too viable since the consensus seems to be going for Cleric/Favored Soul but there is a power called Fate of One that lets you reroll as an immediate action. Maybe nab it via Psychic Theurge? if you do go for a theurge then you also might as well go for Forced Dream which is somewhat relevant.

[Ramza00]

Tyche Touch +4 to Saves Sacred lasts 24 hours. Cleric 2. After you make a save it becomes +3 then +2 then +1 then discharges.

Conviction +2 to +5 Moral Bonus to Saves. Cleric 1, +2 at CL 1, +3 at CL 6, +4 at CL 12, +5 at CL 18. Lasts 10 Min / Level. There is also a Cleric 3 version that is a party version.

Benediction. , you can't cast the spell yourself, an ally has to do it. Cleric 2 it grants a +2 Luck Bonus to Saves, but you also can discharge the bonus to reroll a save. Last 10 Min / Level.

Together these 3 spells give you a +8 to +11 bonus to saves. Furthermore you can reroll so it is even better than that for if you know you are going to fail on a 1, or like a 1 to 5, you can reroll and get that 1 to 20 (average 10.5) and so on.

So yes Leadership is the solution.

[Jack_Simth]

Sorcerer + prestige classes for the base. Pump Charisma. Take Planar Touchstone for The Catalogues of Enlightenment, Pride Domain power. Then Shapechange into a Nymph or Gloura.

Lower levels, you can do something similar via Assume Supernatural Ability and Polymorph Any Object.

Also: Persist three copies of Ruin Delver's Fortune. Requires some metamagic reduction.

Let's see... as for a build...

Sorcerer-6/Ruathar-3/Unseen Seer-2/Incantatirx-3/whatever-6 (Unseen Seer gives you skills, but you'll need Practiced Spellcaster; Incantatrix gives you more metamagic; other PrC's are on the table too). With Assume Supernatural Ability, this comes online at 14th (you'll want to hire a casting of Polymorph Any Object). Base race of Human with Able Learner is recommended.

Why?
Well, Ruathar gets you the class skills needed for Unseen Seer. Unseen Seer's Advanced Learning at 2nd gives you a bonus divination spell from any list. You want either Guidance of the Avatar (if web content's allowed) or Divine Insight (if it needs to be printed material), which you use for Metamagic Effect from Incantatrix for Persistent Spell for Ruin Delver's Fortune.

You get Evasion from Ruin Delver's Fortune.
If you're OK with diluting casting, you can get Mettle via a one-level dip into Pious Templar.

That's Charisma to saves twice on a purely Charisma-based caster, Evasion, Charisma as deflection to AC, and either full casting or mettle (your choice; how much is Mettle worth to you?).

[Biggus]

Another route: Bard 7 Paladin Of Freedom 2 Pious Templar 1 Sublime Chord 10. At higher levels pump your Charisma with Nixie's Grace, Snowsong and Inner Beauty for a total of +16 and with Ruin Delver's Fortune add it to your saves twice. Get the Pride domain via Planar Touchstone and you're laughing.

While this isn't as good as the Cleric, past a certain point there's not much to be gained from having higher saves, once you get to maybe 15 points higher than the average for your level you should rarely fail except on a natural 1, and if you do it's probably time to run away...

Only thing I've not managed to get on any build is improved evasion, anybody know if there's a route to it anywhere?

[Thurbane]

Some really great advice here - thank you all.

So it looks like Cleric is going to be a better base than FS. I think I'll base a build with Cleric as the core.

I should have listed in the OP, while ACFs/variant character classes from UA are allowed, things intended to replace, or not exist alongside, base classes aren't allowed. So no Prestigious Character Classes (i.e. Prestige Paladin), Generic Classes (i.e. Spellcaster) or Spontaneous Divine Casters (i.e. Spontaneous Cleric) are allowed.

On the subject of domains, here's the domains I'm most interested in acquiring, as well as Luck and Pride, Destiny may be a good option, although it allows re-rolls for others, not myself. Liberation Domain gives the equivalent of Slippery mind. Mysticism Domain gives you a luck bonus on saves equal to your Cha bonus, 1/day.

There's a spell that allows you to swap out your domains temporarily, IIRC?

[Anthrowhale]

The Witch Hunter class from OA grants "Kami's Grace" which is like Divine Grace except not Su in a manner similar to prestige paladin.

[Thurbane]

On a Cleric build I can afford to lose 3 caster levels, so dips for Mettle, +X to saves and something to get Evasion are an option.

Obviously would like to avoid things with heavy feat reqs, so I can save feats for save enhancers...

Maybe Pious Templar for Mettle, but that requires two basically useless feats (True Believer has a modest boost to saves 1/day, I guess).

Witch Hunter requires Track (boo!).

Divine Oracle is full casting, at least, but requires Skill Focus...

Would a dip into Ruathar be worthwhile? It has zero investment to enter, and will boost by Reflex save.

[Anthrowhale]

Divine Oracle is full casting, at least, but requires Skill Focus...

Skill Focus can be acquired via Frog God's Fane.

Evasion can also be bought as a ring.

[Thurbane]

Here's some threads that may be relevant:

Evasion index (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?528237)
Handbook of the Exotic Practice of Feat Binding (http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=4099.0)
List of all prestige classes that progress spellcasting (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?493135)
Lists of Stuff (saved from Wizards Community Forums) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?454553)
[3.X/PF] Things That Grant Feats (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?206315)
[3.x] X stat to Y bonus (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?125732)

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Buy a lot of feats from magical locations (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?268363-Permanent-Magical-Locations). Iron Will to boost your Will save, Skill Focus for PrC prereqs, and any others you think might be useful (or that you can DCFS out for more useful ones).

[Jack_Simth]

Maybe Pious Templar for Mettle, but that requires two basically useless feats (True Believer has a modest boost to saves 1/day, I guess).


True Believer's primary purpose is access to deity-specific items without needing to be a Cleric and drop a spell slot.

It's still close to useless for a Cleric, mind....

[Thurbane]

It looks like Mettle will be the most problematic ability to pick up, without blowing feats and/or losing casting levels.


Mettle
Hexblade 3
Pious Templar 1, ecl 6, Complete divine
Vigilante 9, ecl 14, Complete Adventurer
Witch Slayer 2, ecl 7, Tome of Magic
Sohei
Crusader 13, Tome of Battle
Deneith Warden 5, ecl 9, Eberron: Dragonmarked
Master Specialist (abjuration) 7, ecl 10, Complete Mage - works for all saves, see text
Argent Fist 8, ecl 13, Faiths of Eberron
Hellreaver 4, ecl 9, Fiendish Codex II
Kinslayer 1, ecl ?, Drow of the Underdark

Honorable Mention
Iron Mind 5, ecl 10, Races of Stone - "mettle of will" affects will saves only
Goliath Rogue 2 racial substitution level, ecl 3, Races of Stone - "mettle of mountains" affects Fort saves only, improves if later gain


...is that really all there is? Is there any temporary ways to get it through spells or items?

[Biggus]

On the subject of domains, here's the domains I'm most interested in acquiring, as well as Luck and Pride, Destiny may be a good option, although it allows re-rolls for others, not myself. Liberation Domain gives the equivalent of Slippery mind. Mysticism Domain gives you a luck bonus on saves equal to your Cha bonus, 1/day.


The main reason I suggested six levels of Contemplative is that it gives you two extra domains of your choice, plus Slippery Mind; also it doesn't require any feats to take, although you can't get it before level 11 due to the skill requirement.


Is there any temporary ways to get it through spells or items?

Only item I've heard of is the Tabard of Valor (CCh) which only works if your HPs are half maximum or less. I'm now imagining your Cleric intentionally staying just below half HPs, with the Diehard feat and the Delay Death spell (SpC), and a Cleric cohort who does nothing but cast Shield Other and CCW on you...but realistically, I think the Pious Templar dip is the most practical way to get it. If flaws are part of the UA content you can use, might be worth taking a couple to get extra feats.

[Anthrowhale]

...is that really all there is? Is there any temporary ways to get it through spells or items?

If you want a lower feat tax then Witch Slayer 2 costs an extra level of missed casting but no feats.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Are there any creatures that have mettle as an ability you can grab via polymorph any object (with or without Assume Supernatural Ability)?

[Thurbane]

The main reason I suggested six levels of Contemplative is that it gives you two extra domains of your choice, plus Slippery Mind; also it doesn't require any feats to take, although you can't get it before level 11 due to the skill requirement.

Missed that earlier, but that's pretty ideal: Slippery mind + extra domains!


Only item I've heard of is the Tabard of Valor (CCh) which only works if your HPs are half maximum or less. I'm now imagining your Cleric intentionally staying just below half HPs, with the Diehard feat and the Delay Death spell (SpC), and a Cleric cohort who does nothing but cast Shield Other and CCW on you...but realistically, I think the Pious Templar dip is the most practical way to get it. If flaws are part of the UA content you can use, might be worth taking a couple to get extra feats.

Tabard is worth looking into, thanks again.


If you want a lower feat tax then Witch Slayer 2 costs an extra level of missed casting but no feats.

Also worth considering.

My only concern with Contemplative and/or Pious Templar is that they lock you into a particular deity, which may restrict domain choices. A Cleric of an ideal would be better, but may be incompatible with these two PrCs.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

http://blackmarches.wikidot.com/ring-of-mettle?

[Anthrowhale]

My only concern with Contemplative and/or Pious Templar is that they lock you into a particular deity, which may restrict domain choices. A Cleric of an ideal would be better, but may be incompatible with these two PrCs.
Contemplative does not lock you into a particular deity and if you read about bonus domains before you get to prestige classes in CD, you'll see that entry without a specific deity implies you can potentially choose any domain. Hence, a Cleric of an ideal / Contemplative could potentially choose any 4 domains.

[Biggus]

My only concern with Contemplative and/or Pious Templar is that they lock you into a particular deity, which may restrict domain choices. A Cleric of an ideal would be better, but may be incompatible with these two PrCs.

Contemplative specifically allows you to follow an ideal rather than a deity. Not so with PT though sadly.


http://blackmarches.wikidot.com/ring-of-mettle?

This is 3rd party material isn't it?

[Thurbane]

Contemplative does not lock you into a particular deity and if you read about bonus domains before you get to prestige classes in CD, you'll see that entry without a specific deity implies you can potentially choose any domain. Hence, a Cleric of an ideal / Contemplative could potentially choose any 4 domains.

Contemplative specifically allows you to follow an ideal rather than a deity. Not so with PT though sadly.

Good news for Contemplative then, I can cherry pick domains.

I might just give up on Mettle, and stick with the Tabard above. Or maybe Witch Slayer 2. The Tabard stacks with Mettle for Improved Mettle.

[Biggus]

On a Cleric build I can afford to lose 3 caster levels, so dips for Mettle, +X to saves and something to get Evasion are an option.

Obviously would like to avoid things with heavy feat reqs, so I can save feats for save enhancers...

Divine Oracle is full casting, at least, but requires Skill Focus...

Would a dip into Ruathar be worthwhile? It has zero investment to enter, and will boost by Reflex save.

Finally got round to refreshing myself on Ruathar, it really is the ultimate "why not?" class isn't it? No spectacular abilities, but no cost to enter, full casting, decent at most things...about the only class type who loses out from taking it is the melee beast. So for your build, yeah you might as well take a level in it, or even all three, if you don't have anything better to do with those levels.

Despite the skill focus requirement, I still think it's worth the two level dip into Divine Oracle to get Prescient Sense for three reasons. Firstly, it's better than actual evasion for a Cleric because it works even in heavy armour. Secondly because you could get it at level 7, whereas a ring of evasion is not going to be affordable until several levels later. And thirdly because DO is full casting, so if you do want to eg dip into Witch Slayer to get mettle, you're still losing an acceptable number of caster levels.

So maybe Cleric 5/ Divine Oracle 2/ Ruathar 1/ Witch Slayer 2/ Contemplative 6/ whatever 4? You're only spending a single feat to enter those four PrC's, and losing two levels of casting, to get mettle, prescient sense, slippery mind and four domains of your choice. Or lose the Witch Slayer levels if you prefer full casting to mettle. Only downside is your reflex save sucks even with the Ruathar dip, but with Lightning Reflexes and Dex-boosting spells that should be fixable.

[Thurbane]

So maybe Cleric 5/ Divine Oracle 2/ Ruathar 1/ Witch Slayer 2/ Contemplative 6/ whatever 4? You're only spending a single feat to enter those four PrC's, and losing two levels of casting, to get mettle, prescient sense, slippery mind and four domains of your choice. Or lose the Witch Slayer levels if you prefer full casting to mettle. Only downside is your reflex save sucks even with the Ruathar dip, but with Lightning Reflexes and Dex-boosting spells that should be fixable.

Yeah, I'm leaning towards something along these lines. Maybe a 2 level dip into Fortune's Friend (or all 5 if I ditch Witch Slayer).

Here's some feats I'm contemplating:


Iron Will (+2 will, req for other feats)
Great Fortitude (+2 fort) ?
Lightning Reflexes (2 ref) ?
Indomitable Soul (roll twice on save vs. fear and mind affecting)
Divine Denial (+2 on saves against divine spells, allows a save against no-save divine spells - I'm a bit concerned about the flavour on a divine caster, though)
Scorpion's Resolve (+4 on saves vs mind affecting, stacks with Iron Will etc. - this may be overkill, though)
Dumb Luck (treat a 1 on a save as a natural 20: may be redundant with Pride domain)
Miser's Fortune (+5 on saves for my items: not sure about this)
Survivor's Luck (re-roll a save)
Third Time's The Charm (additional re-roll for Luck domain power)
Unbelievable Luck (+2 luck bonus on worst save)
Heroic Destiny (+1d6 to a d20 roll 1/day)
Protected Destiny (re-roll a save, 1/day)

[Biggus]

I'm curious, what's the purpose of this character? I only ask because you seem to be trying to optimise saves well past the point where doing so is really useful. Once you've got your failure rate down to 1 in 400, getting a second reroll to reduce it to 1 in 8000 seems like a bit of a waste of a feat...

[Gusmo]

If you crank your UMD high enough, you could perhaps perpetually be activating the Tabard of Valor as though you were at half health. Minimally you could use the activate blindly rules, you your DM might set a different DC. Perhaps matching the DC of faking an alignment or race for activation purposes.

From Tome of Battle, if you use a Devoted Spirit Amulet (look under Crown of White Ravens), you could get access to the Aura of Perfect Order stance. This gives you the ability to take 11 on any d20 roll once per round.

[Thurbane]

I'm curious, what's the purpose of this character? I only ask because you seem to be trying to optimise saves well past the point where doing so is really useful. Once you've got your failure rate down to 1 in 400, getting a second reroll to reduce it to 1 in 8000 seems like a bit of a waste of a feat...

That's true.

It's mostly a thought exercise, but also my characters tend to have awful luck with saves, failing at the most critical of times...

[MaxiDuRaritry]

That's true.

It's mostly a thought exercise, but also my characters tend to have awful luck with saves, failing at the most critical of times...You best bets are immunities.

You know it's impossible to target someone with full concealment against you, right? Just sayin'.

[Thurbane]

So, I'm giving up on Mettle as a class feature, and the build is looking like this (no flaws at this stage, may be added later if allowed):

Human Cleric 6/Divine Oracle 2/Contemplative 6/Ruathar 1/Fortune's Friend 5

Base saves: Fort +8 Ref +10 Will +16 (Fort is lower than I would have liked)

Feats: EnduranceB, Iron Will, Indomitable Soul, Divine Denial, Heroic Destiny, Lucky Start, Protected Destiny, Survivor's LuckB, Unbelievable Luck, Third Times the CharmB


You best bets are immunities.

You know it's impossible to target someone with full concealment against you, right? Just sayin'.

Good points. :smallsmile:

[Biggus]

Base saves: Fort +6 Ref +8 Will +11 (Fort is lower than I would have liked)


I make them Fort +8 Ref +10 Will +16, are you playing with fractional saves or something?

[Thurbane]

I make them Fort +8 Ref +10 Will +16, are you playing with fractional saves or something?

Cleric 6: 5 / 2 / 5
DO 2: 0 / 0 / 3
Con 6: 2 / 2 / 5
Ruath 1: 0 / 2 / 2
FF 5: 1 / 4 / 1

Total: 8 / 10 / 16

...I must have botched the addition quite badly, you are correct.


On the subject of domains, here's the domains I'm most interested in acquiring, as well as Luck and Pride, Destiny may be a good option, although it allows re-rolls for others, not myself. Liberation Domain gives the equivalent of Slippery mind. Mysticism Domain gives you a luck bonus on saves equal to your Cha bonus, 1/day.

So Pride and Luck are my two initial domains. Maybe Mysticism and Protection for the bonus domains?

[Biggus]

Feats: EnduranceB, Iron Will, Indomitable Soul, Divine Denial, Heroic Destiny, Lucky Start, Protected Destiny, Survivor's LuckB, Unbelievable Luck, Third Times the CharmB

Rereading the Pride domain power, I noticed the wording is "whenever you roll a 1 on a saving throw, you can immediately reroll the save. You must keep the result of the second roll, even if it is another 1", and it occurred to me that a strict DM would interpret this to mean that you can't use another reroll power either before or after this one, which would mean that Survivor's Luck and Protected Destiny wouldn't work with it, although Indomitable Soul probably would.

[Mr Adventurer]

I make them Fort +8 Ref +10 Will +16, are you playing with fractional saves or something?

Fractional saves don't reduce saves.

People sometimes use a houserule which does.

[Biggus]

Human Cleric 6/Divine Oracle 2/Contemplative 6/Ruathar 1/Fortune's Friend 5

Feats: EnduranceB, Iron Will, Indomitable Soul, Divine Denial, Heroic Destiny, Lucky Start, Protected Destiny, Survivor's LuckB, Unbelievable Luck, Third Times the CharmB

I've been thinking a bit more about this, and if you're willing to lose 2 or 3 caster levels, as it seems you are, I reckon you can get more mileage out of using your remaining 5 levels for Paladin 2/ any PrC that advances casting 3 instead of Fortune's Friend, because at high levels you can get a really big bonus out of Divine Grace by pumping your Charisma.

Specifics: at high levels you have access to +6 enhancement items, up to +5 inherent bonuses if you can afford them, and the spells Greater Visage of the Deity (untyped +4 Cha, plus untyped +2 Dex +4 Con +4 Wis, all assuming you're of good alignment) and Miracle, which you can use to simulate an extended version of the Bard spell Snowsong, which gives a +4 morale bonus to Cha and lasts 10mins/ level, so extended lasts about 6 hours at high levels, or about 8 hours with a Bead of Karma.

If you're going this route it may be worth taking the Spell domain, as Greater Anyspell allows you to access the Bard spell Inner Beauty, which gives a +4 Sacred bonus to both Dex and Cha, and also lasts 10mins/ level, hence about 3-4 hours at high levels, or 6-8 hours if your DM allows "any spell of up to 5th level" to include an Extended 4th-level spell.

With all this, assuming you start with a Cha of about 13-14, you could boost it to around 24 (+7) for long periods prior to getting 9th-level spells at level 19, and around 32 (+11) after (more if you can afford a decent inherent bonus).

If you can afford a Cha of 14+ at level 1, it might even be worth taking your Paladin levels early on, as you'd get a constant +2 bonus straight away, and as a 3rd-level Cleric can cast Eagle's Splendor this could easily be boosted to +4 when needed.

The other advantage of these spells is that GVotD and Inner Beauty between them give you +6 Dex +4 Con +4 Wis, which gives you a further +3 Reflex +2 Fort +2 Will, in addition to what you get from Cha.

With all of these in place, your direct save-boosting spells like Conviction and so on, and the Pride domain, you should be able to get firmly into "almost never fails a save except on two consecutive natural 1's" territory even before 9th-level spells become available.

Oh, and GVotD can be persisted with DMM, as can Recitation (+3 Luck bonus to saves) and Elation (+2 Morale bonus to Dex, among other things), so it might even be worth swapping out some of your feats for Extend Spell/ Persistent Spell/ DMM Persist.


Fractional saves don't reduce saves.

People sometimes use a houserule which does.

Fair enough, it was the only thing I could think of off the top of my head that might explain the difference. I know it's a common houserule if it's not RAW. Looking at it again, I think he just forgot to add on the Contemplative's save bonuses as they're down by exactly that amount.

[PanosIs]

Alternatively, and going back to the favored soul version, you can use Sacred Exorcist to get access to Turn Undead while keeping the all-good base saves.

Human Favored Soul 6/Divine Oracle 2/Fortune's Friend 4/Sacred Exorcist 1/Pious Templar 1/Contemplative 6

Gets you total base save bonuses of: Fort +10 Ref +11 Will +18 (plus an extra +2 from Unbelievable Luck)

Feats: Lucky StartH, Survivor's LuckB, Unbelievable LuckB, Weapon FocusB, True Believer1, Skill Focus3, Extend Spell6, Divine Fortune 9, Persist Spell12, Divine Metamagic15, ???18

Ends up with a total of 6 luck rerolls, 2 domains, spontaneous casting and can easily fit pesist spell in for persisting all the save-boosting and immunity granting stuff.

[Biggus]

Alternatively, and going back to the favored soul version, you can use Sacred Exorcist to get access to Turn Undead while keeping the all-good base saves.

Human Favored Soul 6/Divine Oracle 2/Fortune's Friend 4/Sacred Exorcist 1/Pious Templar 1/Contemplative 6


The more I've looked at this, the more I've realised that most of the really important stuff can be got by a Favored Soul one way or another, it might be worth going back to that after all.

[PanosIs]

The more I've looked at this, the more I've realised that most of the really important stuff can be got by a Favored Soul one way or another, it might be worth going back to that after all.

It took me a while to realize because I've never considered Sacred Exorcist on an actual divine caster :P It was always is some Silver Pyromancer build I was working at the time.

The posted build is a bit too heavy on the dips for my own stylistic preferences, but yeah, Favored Soul can get most of the necessary stuff, and getting free WF to get into Pious Templar helps quite a bit as well.

[Biggus]

The main disadvantage of FS over Cleric that I can see is that a FS must worship a particular deity, so can't cherry-pick their domains. To my eyes, the Pride domain is the only really essential one though, so this isn't necessarily a dealbreaker.

[Thurbane]

The main disadvantage of FS over Cleric that I can see is that a FS must worship a particular deity, so can't cherry-pick their domains. To my eyes, the Pride domain is the only really essential one though, so this isn't necessarily a dealbreaker.

Bahamut grants Luck and Pride, IIRC.

[Gusmo]

You can cherry pick a domain power via the planar touchstone (catalogues of enlightenment) feat. This will also give you a limited ability to cast spells from that domain. There's still a pretty good argument for the destiny domain, especially if you think you stand a realistic chance of ever persisting 9th level spells.

[CactusAir]

Did Unapproachable East get a 3.5 update errata?

because https://dndtools.net/classes/master-of-the-yuirwood/ advances casting fully and gives you effectively divine grace at level 9 in it.




With LA buyoff:

Glouria (7RHD, casting as 7th level bard) Paladin(Harmonious Knight) 2/Monk 1/SublimeChord 1/Master of the Yuirwood 9.

Lyric Spell + Persist Spell + Sirene's Grace = Cha to AC

Ascetic Mage feat = Cha to AC.

Glouria has Cha to AC and saves.

Plus Divine Grace and Forest's Grace.

CHA x3 to AC and Saves, 9th level spellcasting as a Sublime Chord.

Have fun.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I have a level 21 gestalt build with base saves of Fort 46, Ref 30, and Will 50. Of course, that IS both gestalt and fractional saves, so...

[Biggus]

Glouria (7RHD, casting as 7th level bard) Paladin(Harmonious Knight) 2/Monk 1/SublimeChord 1/Master of the Yuirwood 9.

Where's Glouria from? Google's not coming up with anything...

EDIT: Ah, you mean Gloura don't you?

http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20031003e

[Biggus]

Seeker of the Misty Isle (CD) might be useful if you have 2 or 3 levels left with nothing essential to fill them.

Upsides:

Good Fort and Reflex saves (almost certainly going to be weaker than Will: 2 levels of SotMI gets you +3 to both)

Full casting for first 4 levels

No feat requirements

Gets you yet another domain, Travel; not much use from the optimising saves perspective, but generally considered to have some of the most useful spells of any domain

Downsides:

Requires you to be an elf or half-elf. May not be a problem per se, but probably not optimal

Fluff requirements may be hard to fulfill, depending on how strict your DM is about such things

[Anthrowhale]

An alternative approach is to aim for Wisdom rather than Charisma then using Owl's Insight + caster level fu to jack up saving throws. Maybe:

Paladin 2/Archivist 5/Divine Oracle 2/Hathran 5/?? 6 (Hathran unfortunately requires one of 3 deities so domains are limited.)

Taking Serenity then using Circle Magic, Karma Bead, and Ankh of Ascension with Owl's Insight to get Wisdom 58=18 (base) +5 (inherent)+5(levels)+6(enhancement)+24 (Insight) generating +24 to all saves via Divine Grace.

[Biggus]

Taking Serenity

Serenity's from Dragon Magazine isn't it? Was it ever reprinted anywhere?

[Septimus]

I can post my character plan, which quite different, but might help, or not. I played it until ECL 13 and it had Evasion+Mettle and +30/+15/+20 in its saves (and a reroll Vs Death/Mind effects).

Half-Shadow Dragon Lesser Drow for the race, CE alignement for obvious reason
Cleric 1 of Selvetarm
Paladin of Slaughter 3
Fighter 2
Pious Templar 2
Divine Crusader 2
Contemplative +X

With DMM persist on Divine Power (ECL 14) it is full bab martial. It reach level 9 spell (even if restricted and spontaneous casting) by ECL 18.

Hope that helps. Even if it doesn't, it's quite a fun character that maybe someone might pick up ;)

[Anthrowhale]

Serenity's from Dragon Magazine isn't it? Was it ever reprinted anywhere?

Dragon Compendium.

[Thurbane]

I've just realized Protected Destiny only works on a natual 1, so with the Pride domain, is redundant. That means I can ditch Heroic Destiny and Protected Destiny from my feats.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Are there any ways to get improved mettle?

I know there are a few races and monsters that gain evasion (like wizard familiars, who gain improved evasion), but are there any that gain mettle?

[edit] As far as I know, the only way to get improved mettle is the oft-discussed tabard that was talked about earlier, and I just realized I'd already asked about races/monsters with mettle, and nobody has commented yet, so I imagine there is none.

[Thurbane]

[edit] As far as I know, the only way to get improved mettle is the oft-discussed tabard that was talked about earlier, and I just realized I'd already asked about races/monsters with mettle, and nobody has commented yet, so I imagine there is none.

AFAIK, that is the only official way.

A DM could house rule that two instances of Mettle from different sources become Improved Mettle, but obviously not RAW.

And no, no monsters that innately have Mettle that I know of...

[bean illus]

Just a side thought ...

Your really looking for 'how to fix LOW LEVEL* saves'. Spells, class features, feats, and items will be the overdrive at high levels.

With that said: monk has all good saves (I don't recall it being mentioned in this thread).

FS 2 /monk 2/ has +6, +6, +6.

"Wild Monk" variant grants survival skill ... so.
FS 4 /monk 2/ SotMI 1/ Exorc 1 / DO 2/
+9 +9 +11 base saves @ 10th.

You would of course need access to all the monk acfs to trade the useless class features, but you would get at least a few good things (spell reflection?).

[Biggus]

AFAIK, that is the only official way.

A DM could house rule that two instances of Mettle from different sources become Improved Mettle, but obviously not RAW.


There is an epic prestige class from Epic Insights called Void Incarnate which gives improved mettle as a class feature. A bit beyond the scope of the original question, but it's the only way I've ever heard of to get it constantly.

http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ei/20030418a