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Thinker
2019-05-03, 09:03 AM
I have played a lot of different RPG's covering a diverse range of settings and mechanics and I have read through many more. My experience is that there are four main levers that game designers use to limit character advancement: character classes, ability selection, character levels, and character points. Many systems mix and match between these methods for various aspects of character design. In my mind these methods look something like this:


Character classes - Normally represent an archetype or a profession.

Examples: D&D Character classes, Apocalypse World playbooks, Exalted castes


Ability selection - Players choose their abilities from a menu of options

Examples: D&D feats, D&D spells, GURPS traits, Exalted Charms, M&M powers


Character levels - Characters reach predetermined milestones that allow them to gain new abilities

Examples: D&D Class Levels, Apocalypse World


Character points - Players spend points to improve their character

Examples: D&D Skills, Exalted everything, GURPS everything, M&M everything



Which models do you enjoy playing with? What do you see as strengths and weaknesses of these methods? What methods did I miss?

Vorpal Glaive
2019-05-03, 03:38 PM
Points seem the most elegant solution to limit PC advancement. Levels and classes bring a noticeable degree of "sameness" that blurs attempts at building unique PCs. With PB-based systems, ability enhancement is a result of point-placement.

Khedrac
2019-05-03, 04:31 PM
You miss what I would call "Skill experience" - in this you can use any skill, but with differing chances of success. The development of the chartacter increases those skills that are being used.
Examples are RuneQuest, Call of Cthulhu etc.

It also happens to be one of my favourite methods because I like RQ as a system.

Clistenes
2019-05-03, 06:05 PM
I have been reading Savage Worlds stuff lately. It is a point buy system. It looks elegant, but I haven't tried it in actual play...

Something that worries me is, how the hell do Game Masters balance encounters for players? It seems to me that you will need to play a lot in order to get a hang of what character is more powerful than that other character...

Also, it probably is dumb to think about it, but, in a world with potential infinite growth, and the possibility of staving age or even becoming immortal... shouldn't be elder/ancient Wild Cards characters around who have maxed all abilites and all skills and taken all the best edges and learned all the spells...? Like, that ancient lich or vampire lord, who is the final boss, shouldn't it be as powerful as a Demigod?

Max_Killjoy
2019-05-03, 07:21 PM
I have been reading Savage Worlds stuff lately. It is a point buy system. It looks elegant, but I haven't tried it in actual play...

Something that worries me is, how the hell do Game Masters balance encounters for players? It seems to me that you will need to play a lot in order to get a hang of what character is more powerful than that other character...


In the point-based system I'm most familiar with (HERO 4th and 5th editions), it's fairly easy to look at the Combat Values (basically the offense and defense "skills"), the damage dice or point cost on the character's attack(s), and their Defenses, and eyeball how powerful they are in combat. The system looks complex, but it has its simple side because any two attacks that do Xd6 damage are effectively the same, Defenses that total up to Y are effectively the same, etc, and if you want attacks that don't fit that scale because they have some Advantage, you pay for it in added Character Points. So if your attack ignores armor, you pay trough the nose for it, and in theory it balances in point cost against an attack that does more raw dice but gets the same end effect.




Also, it probably is dumb to think about it, but, in a world with potential infinite growth, and the possibility of staving age or even becoming immortal... shouldn't be elder/ancient Wild Cards characters around who have maxed all abilites and all skills and taken all the best edges and learned all the spells...? Like, that ancient lich or vampire lord, who is the final boss, shouldn't it be as powerful as a Demigod?


Base XP at least in part on "challenge".

Get too powerful, run out of challenges, stop progressing.

Clistenes
2019-05-03, 07:34 PM
Base XP at least in part on "challenge".

Get too powerful, run out of challenges, stop progressing.

A challenge doesn't need to be a fighting foe... it could be research, investigation, fighting a plague, exploration... So long as the character keeps trying new things they aren't already perfect at, they have room for growth...

Cluedrew
2019-05-03, 07:47 PM
I would like to add Life-Path Character Generation.

You actually chose stages of life your character has gone through and your character gains stats and skills from that. Not very common, simpler one stage background selections get some of this but the full on resolve each step of your back story I have seen twice that I can remember: Traveler and Burning Wheel.

Max_Killjoy
2019-05-03, 10:12 PM
A challenge doesn't need to be a fighting foe... it could be research, investigation, fighting a plague, exploration... So long as the character keeps trying new things they aren't already perfect at, they have room for growth...

I wasn't just thinking of combat.

Plus people do forget thing, get rusty, etc. Sure, Dr Vlad mastered the violin a century ago, surpassing all others at playing the instrument... but he's been concentrating on particle physics and haiku since then, and hasn't had time to keep in practice. :smallbiggrin:


But any system faces the "infinite time = infinite power" hypothetical... what keeps a D&D character who is immortal from mastering all things eventually?

Kyutaru
2019-05-03, 10:28 PM
But any system faces the "infinite time = infinite power" hypothetical... what keeps a D&D character who is immortal from mastering all things eventually?

Enemies. Someone's eventually going to get him or he's going to become a god. Whichever happens first.

Power begets rivalries and opposition. The stronger the character gets, the more attention he draws.

LordEntrails
2019-05-03, 11:46 PM
I (mostly) like "Skill Experience" as Khedrac mentioned. I learned it with Ruenquest 1E.

Pauly
2019-05-03, 11:53 PM
I really like the character background giving you bonuses then the points buy system. I like the ability to make my character what I want it to be.

Getting all your upgrades in one package the class/level system I dislike because I’m playing what someone else wanted the character to be like. I don’t like the whole meta gaming that goes on with the class/level systems. Taking one level of [X] class for the statistical benefits without a solid RPing reason annoys me. The other thing that annoys me is being forced to take abilities that my character has no intention of ever using in the class package. For example if I want to build a paladin that for RP reasons doesn’t use armor I still have to take the armor feats that come with the Paladin set, and I can’t re-allocate those feats to something my character would prefer.

Cluedrew
2019-05-04, 06:43 AM
On Infinite time = Infinite power: The absence of immortality also means that this is fine because you don't have infinite time to turn into infinite power. Even if you could if you did. For the shorter term you could have aging penalties so a 70 year old might have much better skills but in many areas it doesn't actually matter because it only partially makes up for their age.

noob
2019-05-04, 07:08 AM
On Infinite time = Infinite power: The absence of immortality also means that this is fine because you don't have infinite time to turn into infinite power. Even if you could if you did. For the shorter term you could have aging penalties so a 70 year old might have much better skills but in many areas it doesn't actually matter because it only partially makes up for their age.

That is false because a huge portion of fantasy worlds adds ways to live forever such as undeath or sacrificing people to an elder god every four plus four days.

Max_Killjoy
2019-05-04, 08:10 AM
Enemies. Someone's eventually going to get him or he's going to become a god. Whichever happens first.

Power begets rivalries and opposition. The stronger the character gets, the more attention he draws.

That's a setting-layer limit.

I think the question was about system-layer.

Clistenes
2019-05-04, 08:25 AM
But any system faces the "infinite time = infinite power" hypothetical... what keeps a D&D character who is immortal from mastering all things eventually?

3.5 level up is strongly based on xp combat rewards... And once you become stronger than mostly everybody else, you can't get more xp...

5e makes easier to find challenges and to get xp from beating even weaker enemies, but leveling past 20 lvl is pretty much "you get whatever scrap the DM wants to give you..." Even epic NPCs like Halaster and Laeral Silverhand seen to have 20 class levels, tops...

With Savage Worlds, on the other hand, you gain points so long as you keep exploring and trying new things, and you can use them to raise your skills so long as you keep using these skills... do you want d12 in your Boating skill? Join a ship crew and you will eventually be there...

Thinker
2019-05-04, 09:37 AM
You miss what I would call "Skill experience" - in this you can use any skill, but with differing chances of success. The development of the chartacter increases those skills that are being used.
Examples are RuneQuest, Call of Cthulhu etc.

It also happens to be one of my favourite methods because I like RQ as a system.

Yes. I think that's the same system as Warhammer Fantasy Roleplaying and Blades in the Dark uses something similar. It completely slipped my mind. I like that system conceptually because it promotes skill use for progression.



I would like to add Life-Path Character Generation.

You actually chose stages of life your character has gone through and your character gains stats and skills from that. Not very common, simpler one stage background selections get some of this but the full on resolve each step of your back story I have seen twice that I can remember: Traveler and Burning Wheel.

I never played Traveler, but I have read about that for character creation. I read through Burning Wheel, but never got to play and had forgotten about it. The new Seventh Sea 2E has something similar as well where the player states their goals and progression is tied toward achieving those goals. It is an interesting system, but it can also be frustrating if the game never gives you an opportunity to pursue those goals. On the other hand, it feels good for the player when the do get to fulfill those goals.

Kyutaru
2019-05-04, 10:31 AM
That's a setting-layer limit.

I think the question was about system-layer.

There's no such thing as a character at system level so it's an irrelevant hypothetical scenario. He's an abstract concept of skills and abilities along with every creature in the monster manual. Time doesn't pass, immortality is more like limbo, and no skills can be gained or lost through actual progression. It's all a hypothetical exercise for a hypothetical character in a hypothetical situation that won't ever affect the real game where DMs command the universe. The actual world he is part of may limit spells, items, immortality, or none of the above. It will have real consequences for gaining that much power one way or another. Utopias don't exist, they're concepts we strive for, ideals to hold in reverence as the perfect model. Immortal characters with infinite time and knowledge are like the very definition of a deity. One does not kill a god in an abstract universe devoid of danger or threat.

Max_Killjoy
2019-05-04, 10:48 AM
There's no such thing as a character at system level so it's an irrelevant hypothetical scenario. He's an abstract concept of skills and abilities along with every creature in the monster manual. Time doesn't pass, immortality is more like limbo, and no skills can be gained or lost through actual progression. It's all a hypothetical exercise for a hypothetical character in a hypothetical situation that won't ever affect the real game where DMs command the universe. The actual world he is part of may limit spells, items, immortality, or none of the above. It will have real consequences for gaining that much power one way or another. Utopias don't exist, they're concepts we strive for, ideals to hold in reverence as the perfect model. Immortal characters with infinite time and knowledge are like the very definition of a deity. One does not kill a god in an abstract universe devoid of danger or threat.

...

Whatever.

Thinker
2019-05-04, 04:08 PM
That's a setting-layer limit.

I think the question was about system-layer.

I am intrigued by your idea about layers to model an RPG. I work in information security so I reference the IP model somewhat regularly. This may be a topic for another thread, but what do you interpret as layers in an RPG model?

Max_Killjoy
2019-05-04, 04:38 PM
I am intrigued by your idea about layers to model an RPG. I work in information security so I reference the IP model somewhat regularly. This may be a topic for another thread, but what do you interpret as layers in an RPG model?


It's fluid, and different people have different ways they cut them up, but you'll see things like:

* a "fiction layer" that comprises the setting as a "world that could be real" inhabited by the characters as "people who could be real"... to me, this is the "real place", the "territory", the actual thing.
* a "system layer" with all the rules and character attributes and dice and whatnot -- personally I treat this as the "map" of that territory
* a "social layer" because of the player interactions that aren't inside the construct of the game, everything from who sits next to each other to how pizza gets ordered to how the players' personalities affect their PCs' interactions

And so on.

So you might see someone say that the fiction layer and system layer are out of sync, because the system layer keeps producing results that are out of whack with the fiction layer (or because players have the wrong fiction layer expectations for the system they're using).

Frozen_Feet
2019-05-04, 05:26 PM
Also, it probably is dumb to think about it, but, in a world with potential infinite growth, and the possibility of staving age or even becoming immortal... shouldn't be elder/ancient Wild Cards characters around who have maxed all abilites and all skills and taken all the best edges and learned all the spells...?

It is impossible to give an abstract solution independent of system specifics. The closest thing is application of diminishing returns, where gains over time decrease asymptotically. The practical effect is that at some point, character growth functionally stops even if it's technically still on-going and actually reaching max everything would take unfeasible amount of time (multiple lifetimes of the universe on the in-game clock, for example).

Knaight
2019-05-04, 06:23 PM
Also, it probably is dumb to think about it, but, in a world with potential infinite growth, and the possibility of staving age or even becoming immortal... shouldn't be elder/ancient Wild Cards characters around who have maxed all abilites and all skills and taken all the best edges and learned all the spells...? Like, that ancient lich or vampire lord, who is the final boss, shouldn't it be as powerful as a Demigod?

If they have a singular obsession to personal improvement in skills, and skill loss through disuse in the setting isn't a thing, and all the skills involved haven't changed then yes. Absent all of these, no. The elder vampire who spent the entire 18th century mastering every scientific field they could, deeply obsessed in them now has a strong grasp of some basic fundamentals across the board, with the occasional belief in discredited weirdness. The faerie knight who gave up fighting to instead blend in with society as nature's margins shrunk all around them has top notch combat skills with whatever several centuries of rust has done to them. The ancient lich didn't seek immortality to spend eternity training, and while they're still a powerful mage they really haven't done much recently.

Also from a system perspective soft caps via exponentially growing improvement costs are a pretty common design feature.

noob
2019-05-04, 06:40 PM
Yes if the lich have been too busy catching up on reading all the novels the lich probably did not learn much more about arcane magic.
I mean if you become immortal reading all the novels is probably the first task you set for yourself.

Pauly
2019-05-05, 12:52 AM
If they have a singular obsession to personal improvement in skills, and skill loss through disuse in the setting isn't a thing, and all the skills involved haven't changed then yes. Absent all of these, no. The elder vampire who spent the entire 18th century mastering every scientific field they could, deeply obsessed in them now has a strong grasp of some basic fundamentals across the board, with the occasional belief in discredited weirdness. The faerie knight who gave up fighting to instead blend in with society as nature's margins shrunk all around them has top notch combat skills with whatever several centuries of rust has done to them. The ancient lich didn't seek immortality to spend eternity training, and while they're still a powerful mage they really haven't done much recently.

Also from a system perspective soft caps via exponentially growing improvement costs are a pretty common design feature.

Think of what happens when you’re playing a computer RPG and hit the XP cap. Most players stop doing side quests and/or grinding and move onto completing the main story.

If there’s no advancement there’s no reason to keep acquiring XP. When you Lich hits 20th level (or whatever the cap is) they stop gaining spell slots, stop gaining HP, Stop gaining skills. All what is left for them to do is to Pokémon all the spells.

noob
2019-05-05, 05:26 AM
Think of what happens when you’re playing a computer RPG and hit the XP cap. Most players stop doing side quests and/or grinding and move onto completing the main story.

If there’s no advancement there’s no reason to keep acquiring XP. When you Lich hits 20th level (or whatever the cap is) they stop gaining spell slots, stop gaining HP, Stop gaining skills. All what is left for them to do is to Pokémon all the spells.

which is an endless task if creating new spells and rituals is a thing.

gkathellar
2019-05-05, 05:35 AM
which is an endless task if creating new spells and rituals is a thing.

Eh, at a certain point you have all the spells you actually need, and any others are just contrivances. If you know Summon Potato Salad, do you really need Summon Potato Salad With Mustard?

noob
2019-05-05, 06:20 AM
Eh, at a certain point you have all the spells you actually need, and any others are just contrivances. If you know Summon Potato Salad, do you really need Summon Potato Salad With Mustard?

You also need major ice cone as well as heightened pistachio.
then you add up and figure out that the weeks each spell takes means that for a few thousand spells you already spent a lot of years.

Cluedrew
2019-05-05, 06:37 AM
...

Whatever.As Max_Killjoy effectively never yields a point, I think he agrees with you.

Kyutaru
2019-05-05, 07:34 AM
You also need major ice cone as well as heightened pistachio.
then you add up and figure out that the weeks each spell takes means that for a few thousand spells you already spent a lot of years.

This is why we need spell progression. Mega Ultra Chicken Pot Pie, Greater should not be learnable by just any lvl 7 caster. They should have to master the basic recipes before moving up to culinary art.

Max_Killjoy
2019-05-05, 09:23 AM
As Max_Killjoy effectively never yields a point, I think he agrees with you.

No, I just have no idea what he's saying beyond some vague ridiculous notion that character's don't exist.

gkathellar
2019-05-05, 11:17 AM
No, I just have no idea what he's saying beyond some vague ridiculous notion that character's don't exist.

He's saying that a character, at the system level you outlined, is no longer a character - they are a collection of stats and numbers, not an agglomeration of narrative attributes. That's questionable, since a character is not an object strictly in the fiction, but also in the game, which is a narrative expressed partially through rules. Even if we do accept a distinction, we still need a word to call the collection of numbers that correspond to a "character" at other layers. That word might as well be character, or maybe character build or character sheet if we want to be technical.

I would suggest that "a character" is a unit which exists at multiple layers of abstraction, demonstrating different attributes at each layer while remaining interlinked by certain shared assumptions and properties. So, "Jim's character, Dave the Magnificent" consists of a character sheet, an object in the fiction, and Jim himself, and no one of those objects can be said to be "Jim's character, Dave the Magnificent" on its own.

Frozen_Feet
2019-05-05, 11:26 AM
Short answer: of course fictional characters don't exist.

Long answer: the numbers on a character sheet only have "life" when an actual player is playing them in a game. Outside of this, they are like other mathematical constructs: abstract, arbitrary, acausal and irrelevant. There's no compulsion to think of them, so why are you thinking of them?