Sorlock Bookkeeping

[Karnitis]

I'm not planning to coffeelock, but this is my first time multiclassing as two spellcasters and I want to make sure I understand how


Pact Magic. If you have both the Spellcasting class feature and the Pact Magic class feature from the warlock class, you can use the spell slots you gain from the Pact Magic feature to cast spells you know or have prepared from classes with the Spellcasting class feature, and you can use the spell slots you gain from the Spellcasting class feature to cast warlock spells you know.

To me that sounds like you can use spells ambiguously, but I want to clarify. I will start lv 8, 4 War/4 Sorc.

At lv 4, warlocks get two Lv.2 spell slots. At lv 4, sorcerers get four Lv.1 spell slots and three Lv.2 spell slots.

So for bookkeeping, can I write that I simply have five Lv.2 spell slots? Or do I need to separate out warlock v/s sorcerer slots?

Second question, is this an alright ratio? I know 5e is built so nothing is truly bad but I mostly built this so I could experience both classes. However, if it will result in a weak character, I don't want my experience to flavor both classes as bad. Preferring Warlock: is 4/4 okay, or should I change to something like 6/2, or simply start at lv 8 and then multi-class?

[Dualswinger]

Warlocks are the only class in the game that don’t merge their spell slots with other classes. You will need to keep your slots separate. Your sorcerer slots than recover on a long rest, and your warlock slots that recover on a short rest.

That being said you can cast sorcerer spell with a warlock spell slot and vice versa

[Karnitis]

Okay, I want to make sure I understand. Again, we are assuming:
W: 2 slots, has spell Cure Wounds
S: 3 slots, has spell Scorching Ray
(just roll with the spell selection)

So I have to keep the spell slots separate, but for example:

I can use one of my two Warlock slots to cast Scorching Ray, leaving one Warlock slot left, and cast Cure Wounds three times and use all of my Sorcerer spell slots?

So basically, separate the spell slots but merge the spell books?

[KorvinStarmast]

I'm not planning to coffeelock, but this is my first time multiclassing as two spellcasters and I want to make sure I understand how



To me that sounds like you can use spells ambiguously, but I want to clarify. I will start lv 8, 4 War/4 Sorc.

At lv 4, warlocks get two Lv.2 spell slots. At lv 4, sorcerers get four Lv.1 spell slots and three Lv.2 spell slots.

So for bookkeeping, can I write that I simply have five Lv.2 spell slots? Or do I need to separate out warlock v/s sorcerer slots?

Second question, is this an alright ratio? I know 5e is built so nothing is truly bad but I mostly built this so I could experience both classes. However, if it will result in a weak character, I don't want my experience to flavor both classes as bad. Preferring Warlock: is 4/4 okay, or should I change to something like 6/2, or simply start at lv 8 and then multi-class? If you want to see the MC / Pact / Spell caster details for bookkeeping, here's a post I made that goes into some details (https://rpg.stackexchange.com/a/137338/22566).

Neither uses a spell book, both use "spells known" so you know all spells you know. Use as needed, upcast as needed, slots have to be tracked separately.

At level 8, I'd suggest Sorc 5 / Lock 3. Personal opinion. 3rd level spells are just too good not to keep.

[OgataiKhan]

The Warlock slots recharge on a short rest, but since you can use the slots interchangeably and you'll always use your Warlock slots first, you can just merge them together and recharge two of the appropriate level every short rest.

As for your second question, the ideal ratio is Sorcerer 17/Warlock 3. This gives you a Warlock pact (Chain for an invisible imp familiar, Tome for a regular familiar + ritual casting) and level 9 spells with the Sorcerer.

[Karnitis]

So I totally get that Warlock is a class only made to dip but between the two classes, flavor-wise, I would rather play a Warlock. I understand I could still roleplay a Warlock and just have a higher Sorc level, but it wouldn't be as fun.

So if, combining the two just means I should max Sorc and dump Warlock, I might just go pure Warlock. Is it the same story with Bard, where I should dip warlock and go full bard?

If context helps, I play to double as party face & healer lite (Mask of Mirrors, Celestial). As a sorcerer, I planned on Divine to double-down on the healing aspect. If bard was on the table, I would probably instead go Lore.

but again, if warlock is only going to be a dip comparatively, I think I'll just go pure instead.

[KorvinStarmast]

but again, if warlock is only going to be a dip comparatively, I think I'll just go pure instead.An advantage of going warlock with a dip in Sorc (1 level suffices, albeit it's the first one) is that you get proficiency in constitution saves.
so 1 Sorc / 7 Lock is close to pure. And you get a few more cantrips. :) And four more spells known. Choose them with care.

[Man_Over_Game]

From everything I can tell, there's exactly one reason to keep spell slots separated, which is Eldritch Smite (which technically can only be used with Warlock spell slots).

Assuming you don't have that (and you probably don't if you have Sorcerer levels), spell slots from all classes can be lumped into one big, generic pool because they're entirely interchangeable in terms of use. From there, just track when/how you regenerate spell slots. For example, your Warlock levels will let you regenerate two of your level 2 spells every Short Rest, and that's all you have to track (beyond your generic pool of Spell Slots).

[Malifice]

Warlock slots come back on a short rest (1 hour long, as often as you want, of which you should get a median ratio of at least 2:1 long rests).

Sorcerer slots come back on a long rest (8 hours long, and never more than once every 24 hours).

When ever you can get a 1 hour break, your warlock slots all come back. You need to fall back and camp overnight to get your Sorcerer slots back.

As for your 'build' I wholly reccomend going Warlock (thats your main class) 5, and Sorcerer 3.

That gets you 3rd level spells known, plus metamagic from Sorcerer, and 6 extra slots for Shields and so forth.

For a 'caster' lock, take Fiend-lock and select Fireball and Counterspell as your 2 known 3rd level spells (plus Hex, Hellish rebuke, Scorching ray, and a whatever else you like). For invocations take agonizing blast and repelling blast, and 1 other to suit. Take pact of the Tome, and go crazy with rituals (Leomunds tiny Hut and Detect Magic are two go to's).

For Gish, combine Blade Lock with Hexblade 5 with Shadow Sorcerer 3.

[Keravath]

Sorlocks are a popular build. One common way is 2-3 levels of warlock and the rest sorcerer. The reason for this split is so that the sorcerer will retain access to 9th level spells when they reach sorcerer 17. Two levels of warlock gives the character agonizing blast which combined with eldritch blast gives decent at will damage that can be increased by the sorcerer using quicken at higher levels to cast eldritch blast twice in a turn giving particularly good single target damage that is rarely resisted. When combined with the hex spell, the sorlock with a quickened eldritch blast is one of the better single target damage builds.

As for casting, the spell slots can be used interchangeably for the spells you know from either sorcerer or warlock. The warlock spell slots are given by the pact magic feature while the sorcerer spell slots are the same as any full caster. However, warlock and sorcerer spell slots do not combine like the spell slots of other casting classes. They need to be tracked separately because warlock spell slots are restored on a short rest while sorcerer spell slots require a long rest to be restored.

One of the reasons sorcerer and warlock work so well together is because they both use charisma. If you were playing a wizard/warlock for example you need to keep track of which spells you learned from each class because the spells have to use the relavant casting stats. As a result a wizard spell uses intelligence while a warlock or sorcerer spell uses charisma. So in general, which class you used to learn a particular spell does matter IF the casting stats are different for the different spells.

You also need to keep track of which class learned which spells so you can appropriately swap them as you level up. For example, if you increase in level in sorcerer, you can't change your warlock spell selections, only your sorcerer ones. So knowing which class learned which spell may not be relevant when casting the spell but it does matter for spell selection when leveling up.

[Karnitis]

I appreciate all the suggestions. Y'all have suggested 17/3, 5/3, 3/5. I understand that the 3 is to grab the subclass, whether for sorcerer or for warlock.

Is that basically the sacrifice of multiclassing to give up that ASI? Or would I take another level of it down the road? I get that gaining another level in that class wouldn't gain me anything in said-class since it's an ASI regardless of which I picked. It just seems so...alien to me?

That said, I may stick to the 5/3. My stats are 10/14/14/14/15/16 (without race mods and the like) so I don't really need a stat boost. I'm mostly thinking of freebie feats, like War Caster, Actor, or Inspiring Leader.

[Karnitis]

You also need to keep track of which class learned which spells so you can appropriately swap them as you level up. For example, if you increase in level in sorcerer, you can't change your warlock spell selections, only your sorcerer ones. So knowing which class learned which spell may not be relevant when casting the spell but it does matter for spell selection when leveling up.

Aaaaaah, that makes sense. I'm veteran enough that I don't mind keeping track of stuff like that, I just didn't see a point to it. But that makes sense. As for warlock levels regenerating faster than sorc, I figure that's easy enough. Every short rest I just add +3 to my highest level slots (which would be 3rd, at 5th).

[KorvinStarmast]

I appreciate all the suggestions. Y'all have suggested 17/3, 5/3, 3/5. I understand that the 3 is to grab the subclass, whether for sorcerer or for warlock.

Is that basically the sacrifice of multiclassing to give up that ASI? Or would I take another level of it down the road? I get that gaining another level in that class wouldn't gain me anything in said-class since it's an ASI regardless of which I picked. It just seems so...alien to me?

That said, I may stick to the 5/3. My stats are 10/14/14/14/15/16 (without race mods and the like) so I don't really need a stat boost. I'm mostly thinking of freebie feats, like War Caster, Actor, or Inspiring Leader. Minor nit pick.
You sorcerer sub class comes at level 1. Your ability to use meta magic is what comes at 3. Your pool of sorcery points arrive at level 2.

[Karnitis]

Final question, and I think I've got this mostly understood.

Sorc gives me 4 cantrips. Warlock lv 5 gives me 3. My pact gives me two. Am I really getting 9 cantrips? That's real nice for utility, considering the only damaging cantrip I really need is EB. But that seems ridiculous for a lv 8 spellcaster so I want to make sure before I try to pull shenanigans.

[Keravath]

Aaaaaah, that makes sense. I'm veteran enough that I don't mind keeping track of stuff like that, I just didn't see a point to it. But that makes sense. As for warlock levels regenerating faster than sorc, I figure that's easy enough. Every short rest I just add +3 to my highest level slots (which would be 3rd, at 5th).

I'm not sure what you mean by adding +3 to your highest level spell slots.

A level 1 warlock has 1 first level spell slot. A level 3 warlock has 2x 2nd level slots. The number of slots stays at 2 until a warlock reaches 11th level though the level of these spell slots changes.

A level 1 warlock/3 sorcerer has 5 first level spell slots and 2 second level ones. One of the first level ones is restored on a short rest.

A level 5 warlock/1 sorcerer instead has 2x 3rd level spell slots and 2x1st level spell slots with the two third level slots being restored on a short rest.

A level 5 sorcerer/3 warlock has 2x 3rd level slots, 5x2nd level slots and 4x1st level slots. Two of the five second level slots are restored on a short rest.

When you cast a spell, you need to decide what spell slot to use. For example, if you are a 5 divine soul sorcerer and a 3 warlock you have to decide whether to casting healing word using a 2nd level spell slot that you can get back on a short rest OR use a first, second, or third level slot that will only be restored after a long rest. Similarly, if you decide to cast hex, do you use a short rest or long rest spell slot? You have to choose between casting the spell using the slot that you can get back more easily vs one that might or might not require upcasting the spell.


Most sorlocks will only have up to 3 levels of warlock since it gives the pact boon and some useful invocations and spells while still leaving the character as mostly a sorcerer that is quite capable for party support (twinned haste etc., twinned healing word if a divine soul and two party members drop in the same turn ... lots of options).


The main reason for this is because adding more warlock to the sorcerer/warlock doesn't do that much until much later levels. If you want to focus on warlock and actually want the possibility of doing more damage than hex+eldritch blast then usually the warlock needs to be built around getting advantage as often as possible AND using either Great Weapon Master+Polearm Master or Sharpshooter+Xbow expert to reliably increase the hit chances and damage of each attack. Both of these more combat focused warlocks can do more damage at the expense of feats than agonizing blast by itself but it requires a significant investment in feats.


e.g. At level 12 a blade pact warlock with thirsting blade+lifedrinker+PAM+GWM using a glaive would make three attacks. If they all hit then they do d10+20, d10+20, d4+20 which averages 73.5 ... the comparable agonizing blast is 3d10+15 = 31.5 or if you cast it twice with quicken it becomes 63. If you add hex into the mix this adds 3d6 (10.5) to the weapon attacks or 6d6 to agonizing blast (21). In which case the total damage from the two sets of attacks is about the same (85 vs 84). However, at that level, it is more likely that the character would be concentrating on something else, rather than hex, and the use of quickened agonizing blast will use up 2 sorcery points/round while the weapon attacks don't use any additional resources.


In either case, after 12 levels of warlock, the weapon focused warlock might likely multiclass into sorcerer or bard for more spell slots and some variety.


A couple other possible builds would be a 3 blade pact hexblade warlock/sorcerer X using booming blade for weapon attacks based on charisma. This could be increased to warlock 5/sorcerer X if you decide you prefer two weapon attacks to booming blade.

Anyway, I've found sorlocks tend to work best with something like warlock 3 (usually hexblade for armor/shield/weapon proficiencies and hexblade curse 1/SR) /sorcerer X (divine soul can be a good choice, but shadow is also cool and pretty thematic with a hexblade depending on how you put together the character backstory).

[Keravath]

Final question, and I think I've got this mostly understood.

Sorc gives me 4 cantrips. Warlock lv 5 gives me 3. My pact gives me two. Am I really getting 9 cantrips? That's real nice for utility, considering the only damaging cantrip I really need is EB. But that seems ridiculous for a lv 8 spellcaster so I want to make sure before I try to pull shenanigans.

Sorcerer 1 gives you 4 cantrips, Warlock 5 would give you 3 cantrips, Pact of the Tome would give you 3 more cantrips for a total of 10. If you take the Book of Ancient Secrets invocation you can add any rituals of warlock level/2 rounded up to your book of shadows.

If you go sorcerer 5/warlock 3 tome pact you would have 5+2+3 = 10 cantrips as well. Tome pact is a popular choice for sorlocks for this reason.

P.S. With your character stats you will likely prioritize two ASI for maxing charisma by level 8 and can put the rest into feats or perhaps constitution.

[Davo]

I've played a pure Warlock to level 9 and never felt underpowered, although I always considered a one level dip into Sorcerer just for the extra stuff. I've never played past 15 and very rarely past 10, so pick a progression that will be fun when you start, and make each new level decision based on your experience.

My current Warlock is level 5, and next will be Sorcerer for three levels. After that, I haven't yet decided.