Some RAW questions

[Hisoka]

So a friend of mine and I are having a disagreement. So I’m playing a Shadowcraft Mage with Residual Magic and Earth Spell to cast Miracle out of 1st level spell slots by heightening Silent Image. My friend claims that the Residual Magic feat only applies to the second casting of the spell, which would be the first spell cast in the second round. I argued that it would affect every casting of Silent Image in the second round. Thoughts?

[Hisoka]

Nvm asked in RAW thread pls delete thread

[Pippin]

Q 677 Suggestion

Guys, The poster of this question originally posted it as a separate topic here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?587236-Some-RAW-questions). Since there's already a thread for it, maybe it's best to discuss it there?
Thank you! I never saw that thread!


Again, correct. Which, again, only further proves that it only works for one further casting. The stipulation of it being in the next round is part of the conditions of using the feat. At best, one could view that as allowing the swift cast of the spell in the same round before moving to the next and casting again. However, you really can't twist the meaning of "second", even when lengthening it to "another instance of", to apply to "every instance of" which translated back into the original wording would need to read "all castings of the spell".

So, again, at best through flimsy RAW you get what I described in my edit, which you basically just agreed to.

By strict RAW, you no longer can use the feat under the given circumstances which would be a conscious choice in the given situation.

Also, no, I'm not "making things up" because of a word you used. I'm trying to stop a spread of misinformation (some guy's interpretation of RAI) being given as an actual RAW answer. The wordage of the feat is quite clear in regards to what casting, as well as the number of castings (1), it affects.
The trick with Residual Magic existed well before I joined GITP you know, so it's definitely not "some guy's interpretation of" anything, as you put so courteously. Also it really puzzles me to see you say that I agree with you when I obviously don't.

You seem to believe that "second" is inherently singular, which the phrase "second thoughts" very much disputes.

I'm also under the vague impression that this conversation goes well beyond this board, and that somebody might be trying to use at an actual table the strategy that I showcased in another thread. I would understand your attempts to make it illegal one way or another, but let's be clear on two things:

The strategy that consists in spamming one encounter with hundreds of Silent Images simultaneously is absolutely theoretical, it's not meant to be played at a table. What's the fun in that.
As a DM, you don't actually have to find reasons to prevent someone from doing something. You say "no" and it's done. It's perfectly understandable as far as the strategy I'm talking about is concerned. What you shouldn't do, though, is ban something with reasons that your players will find very arguable, if not outright wrong.

[Xelaaredn]

Thank you! I never saw that thread!


The trick with Residual Magic existed well before I joined GITP you know, so it's definitely not "some guy's interpretation of" anything, as you put so courteously. Also it really puzzles me to see you say that I agree with you when I obviously don't.

It doesn't matter when the trick was come up with, it doesn't work, period. You just happened to be the guy who stepped in to spread misinformation at the time. As far as the agreeing with me goes...
You mentioned that second can mean "number two" or "another instance of", considering that another itself would be "one more", it therefore stands that whether you meant to or not, you agree that it only counts for one more casting of the spell. Which is correct.


You seem to believe that "second" is inherently singular, which the phrase "second thoughts" very much disputes.

Second thought is singular, second thoughts is plural. Second casting, therefore, is singular. If we are going RAW here, then following actual grammatical usage of plural and singular matters.


I'm also under the vague impression that this conversation goes well beyond this board, and that somebody might be trying to use at an actual table the strategy that I showcased in another thread. I would understand your attempts to make it illegal one way or another, but let's be clear on two things:

The strategy that consists in spamming one encounter with hundreds of Silent Images simultaneously is absolutely theoretical, it's not meant to be played at a table. What's the fun in that.
As a DM, you don't actually have to find reasons to prevent someone from doing something. You say "no" and it's done. It's perfectly understandable as far as the strategy I'm talking about is concerned. What you shouldn't do, though, is ban something with reasons that your players will find very arguable, if not outright wrong.


That would be correct. He purposely chose not to give all of the information when asking his question, party because he didn't want to be told he was incorrect. And then linked your answer back as a way of trying to say that he was proven correct.

Frankly I dont have in entirety of what exactly in every little detail he was doing sitting in front of me right now. But yeah, essentially it boiled down to trying to use residual magic on every single casting of Silent Image after the first round of heightening it to 10th level to then cast it the following round to shadow cast miracle to to cast arcane fusion, to cast 2 silent images both heightened to 10th to shadowcast two miracles to cast celerity and arcane fusion.... repeat ad nauseam to attempt to have infinite actions.

All that aside, I'm not the DM or it definitely would have just been a simple no and be done with it. The DM did mention to him that this would be an entirely, and very strictly by RAW campaign that the entire point of was for him to test this theorycrafted build in. Any time any bit of the build was questioned he would run to an optimization thread to show why that one specific thing works, saying things like fluff not mattering, only what is written in the requirements section... and when pressed or proven incorrect get pissed off and try and find some thread where someone said it did. Even to the point of ignoring the fact that the thread was actually divided on the subject.

Now, considering he literally was getting angry about being told his build (which by strict RAW, taking all text into account) never even worked from level 1... and kept insisting on being told how exactly it didn't work because he visited a bunch of optimization boards and it all works because "some guys online" said it works that way... it matters when some guy just says it works without actually backing it up.

Look, if you really want the full story here, since this is only the tip of the iceberg, let me know. I'm sure he or I (likely both) can fill you in if you are really that curious.

The point still stands though, by strict RAW, the feat only applies to a single casting of the same spell in the following round, and if the second casting of the spell is not i. the following round, the feat does not function. A looser RAW would be what you had suggested in your original response, that the second casting in the first round as a swift action doesn't count, and the metamagic is still applied to the first casting of the spell in the following round. The difference here, is that the way you worded it, which is the way he, yourself, and whoever else thinks it works this way are twisting it into trying to get it to work on every casting of the spell in the second round . Which, as stated previously, is simply a RAI interpretation, one that specifically is skewed towards maximum cheese.

[Xelaaredn]

All of this by the way being more or less moot as the character got stuck in a checkmate with a great wyrm time dragon.

He celerity plane shifted out of the fight and had no way to return without being stuck between it and a goddess who wants him dead.

He attempted to come up with a way to get back and still be able to fight, get off infinite actions and kill the dragon. Basically, self buffing his persistent buffs, then somehow managing to plane shift back while having an antimagic field up on himself, to get the dragon to drop the time stop it would have readied as it is waiting for him to return... so that he could win initiative, cast a heightened to 10th Silent Image, do whatever, then celerity before the dragon got to attack and do his infinite action loop.

Which again, doing it with shadowcasting miracles from infinite heightened to whatever but still counting as a level 1 spells doesn't work because only the first casting would be affected. That aside, it's still the same round. At that point the Silent Image to 10th would have had to happened while in the positive energy plane where he was stuck, which would put him at having to start the loop there, which means either no plane shift or no antimagic field as one of those miracles from double silent image in the arcane fusion would have to be celerity to keep the loop going to continue infinite turns on their plane.

But, come to think of it, all of that is technically moot anyway as there is no ground to stand on in the Positive Energy plane so he couldn't get Silent Image up to 10th using Earth Spell anyway to use it for miracles.

[Pippin]

It doesn't matter when the trick was come up with, it doesn't work, period.
You very much implied I was the only person involved, so I corrected you there. Whether it works or not wasn't the point of this particular statement of yours.


You just happened to be the guy who stepped in to spread misinformation at the time.
You have the right to believe that, but believing something, just like repeating it over and over, does not make it true.


You mentioned that second can mean "number two" or "another instance of", considering that another itself would be "one more", it therefore stands that whether you meant to or not, you agree that it only counts for one more casting of the spell. Which is correct.
That statement would be wrong if "another" and "one" (in "one more casting" that you just wrote) were read as numeral adjectives. That would be true if "another" and "one" were read as indefinite articles.


Second thought is singular, second thoughts is plural. Second casting, therefore, is singular. If we are going RAW here, then following actual grammatical usage of plural and singular matters.
"Second thoughts" shows that a number of things can be second together. This proves that "second" doesn't always imply "one" and singularity. The fact that it's singular or plural in the feat description doesn't change what that little example proves.


That would be correct. He purposely chose not to give all of the information when asking his question, party because he didn't want to be told he was incorrect. And then linked your answer back as a way of trying to say that he was proven correct.
As far as RAW and rules questions are concerned, he gave every relevant information though. Whether he should be doing this at a table is an entirely different question, yes.


Frankly I dont have in entirety of what exactly in every little detail he was doing sitting in front of me right now. But yeah, essentially it boiled down to trying to use residual magic on every single casting of Silent Image after the first round of heightening it to 10th level to then cast it the following round to shadow cast miracle to to cast arcane fusion, to cast 2 silent images both heightened to 10th to shadowcast two miracles to cast celerity and arcane fusion.... repeat ad nauseam to attempt to have infinite actions.

All that aside, I'm not the DM or it definitely would have just been a simple no and be done with it. However, considering he literally was getting angry about being told his build (which by strict RAW, taking all text into account) never even worked from level 1... and kept insisting on being told how exactly it didn't work because he visited a bunch of optimization boards and it all works because "some guys online" said it works that way... it matters.

Look, if you really want the full story here, since this is only the tip of the iceberg, let me know. I'm sure he or I (likely both) can fill you in if you are really that curious.
Well I don't have to respond to that block as I'm not a part of that story, luckily enough.


The point still stands though, by strict RAW, the feat only applies to a single casting of the same spell in the following round, and if the second casting of the spell is not i. the following round, the feat does not function.
The problem with your "strict RAW" is that it is consistent only if "second" means "the next instance". "Second" has other meanings - that, you have agreed on - one of them being "any additional instance of", but you don't seem to recognise the reality of this other meaning. So of course, after twisting its existence, suddenly "by strict RAW" you are correct and people who have the other, non-existing definition of the word in mind, are not.

Can I say that again? "Second" has a meaning that has nothing to do with ranking and numbering. Please don't make me write this again, I don't like using bold.


and if the second casting of the spell is not i. the following round, the feat does not function. A looser RAW would be what you had suggested in your original response, that the second casting in the first round as a swift action doesn't count, and the metamagic is still applied to the first casting of the spell in the following round. The difference here, is that the way you worded it, which is the way he, yourself, and whoever else thinks it works this way are twisting it into trying to get it to work on every casting of the spell in the second round . Which, as stated previously, is simply a RAI interpretation, one that specifically is skewed towards maximum cheese.
See above.

[Pippin]

All of this by the way being more or less moot as the character got stuck in a checkmate with a great wyrm time dragon.

He celerity plane shifted out of the fight and had no way to return without being stuck between it and a goddess who wants him dead.

He attempted to come up with a way to get back and still be able to fight, get off infinite actions and kill the dragon. Basically, self buffing his persistent buffs, then somehow managing to plane shift back while having an antimagic field up on himself, to get the dragon to drop the time stop it would have readied as it is waiting for him to return... so that he could win initiative, cast a heightened to 10th Silent Image, do whatever, then celerity before the dragon got to attack and do his infinite action loop.

Which again, doing it with shadowcasting miracles from infinite heightened to whatever but still counting as a level 1 spells doesn't work because only the first casting would be affected. That aside, it's still the same round. At that point the Silent Image to 10th would have had to happened while in the positive energy plane where he was stuck, which would put him at having to start the loop there, which means either no plane shift or no antimagic field as one of those miracles from double silent image in the arcane fusion would have to be celerity to keep the loop going to continue infinite turns on their plane.

But, come to think of it, all of that is technically moot anyway as there is no ground to stand on in the Positive Energy plane so he couldn't get Silent Image up to 10th using Earth Spell anyway to use it for miracles.
See, you're not disputing the right thing. The nuclear trick shouldn't be used unless, I don't know, the entire team is dead and it is everyone's last hope. Also, you'll have a much easier job establishing that Miracle is not a Wizard or Sorcerer Evocation spell. Admittedly Arcane Discipline changes your class's spell list, but it doesn't change the Wizard and Sorcerer Evocation spell lists. You're not disputing the right thing.

[Xelaaredn]

You very much implied I was the only person involved, so I corrected you there. Whether it works or not wasn't the point of this particular statement of yours.


You have the right to believe that, but believing something, just like repeating it over and over, does not make it true.


No longer part of the issue at hand here, aside from you continuing to be a part of this. Though, to be fair the implication is valid as you were the one who responded with an answer he excepted.


That statement would be wrong if "another" and "one" (in "one more casting" that you just wrote) were read as numeral adjectives. That would be true if "another" and "one" were read as indefinite articles.


At this point you are again, trying to go with an implied thought process of the author and trying to skew wording to fit how you want it to.


"Second thoughts" shows that a number of things can be second together. This proves that "second" doesn't always imply "one" and singularity. The fact that it's singular or plural in the feat description doesn't change what that little example proves.

You are, again, apparently missing the point here. Casting is singular, therefore second, the word describing which casting, is singular.


As far as RAW and rules questions are concerned, he gave every relevant information though. Whether he should be doing this at a table is an entirely different question, yes.

Considering your answer was about whether or not he could apply the feat the following round defendant upon if he cast the spell more than once in the first round which is not at all relevant to what he was actually trying to get an answer to, which I might add you put in as a clause on your own as a way to try and make a point in your favor about the meaning of "second casting", he obviously did not.


Well I don't have to respond to that block as I'm not a part of that story, luckily enough.

Ah, something we both fully agree on.


The problem with your "strict RAW" is that it is consistent only if "second" means "the next instance". "Second" has other meanings - that, you have agreed on - one of them being "another (FTFY) instance of", but you don't seem to recognise the reality of this other meaning. So of course, after twisting its existence, suddenly "by strict RAW" you are correct and people who have the other, non-existing definition of the word in mind, are not.

I feel I should point out the reason I keep saying "by strict RAW" is because that is the terminology he uses every time he brings in a counter argument against a point made against him. And yes, second can mean numerically the number 2, or another instance of, as I corrected in your quote. Never will I agree that second can mean "any other instance of", just as no judge would if a lawyer tried to say that. It is not in any way of the imagination able to mean that in the English language. There are words and/or proper wordage to use in place of "any other instance of", but second is not one of them.

Let's be a bit more... grounded with that. You ask someone you've just had a first date with if they would be willing to go on a second date. They say yes, by your logic (second can mean "any other instance of"), they have now agreed to go on a date with you however many times you want them to.

Don't be stupid.


Can I say that again? "Second" has a meaning that has nothing to do with ranking and numbering. Please don't make me write this again, I don't like using bold.

Guess I'm about to see bold, because your implication that second can mean multiple castings of the same spell in the following round is incorrect. Second. Casting. Singular.

Do I need to use bold as well?

[Xelaaredn]

See, you're not disputing the right thing. The nuclear trick shouldn't be used unless, I don't know, the entire team is dead and it is everyone's last hope. Also, you'll have a much easier job establishing that Miracle is not a Wizard or Sorcerer Evocation spell. Admittedly Arcane Discipline changes your class's spell list, but it doesn't change the Wizard and Sorcerer Evocation spell lists. You're not disputing the right thing.

This is only the latest of a long line of crap that I've proven time and time again to not function as he thinks it does. But again, he keeps trying to use random people online as proof that what he is doing works.

(i) A spell is a wizard spell if-and-only-if it is on the Wizard spell list.
(ii) Arcane Disciple adds the spells on the selected domain list to "your class spell list."
(iii) For a Wizard character, "your class spell list" refers to the Wizard spell list.
(iv) By (ii) and (iii), Arcane Disciple (luck) makes it so certain spells are treated as on the Wizard spell list for you.
(v) By (i) and (iv) miracle becomes a wizard spell for you.

As much as I hate it... technically it does work. But again, plenty of other things make what he is attempting not work. This debate over residual magic just happens to be the latest, unless you count me bringing up not being able to use Earth Spell on the positive energy plane as the latest, albeit unnecessary interjection.

[Pippin]

I'm tired of this. You purposely fail to understand what I'm saying, then accuse me of your own misdoings. Your answers are irrelevant half the time, you'd just post anything to reply to something I say really. And when I'm bringing you another meaning of the word, you'll just edit it in a quote to "correct" reality for yourself. What a caricature, I don't know what to do at this point.

[Xelaaredn]

You're the one trying to twist an obviously worded feat into working the way you want it to. If you're done, that's fine.

[Roland St. Jude]

Nvm asked in RAW thread pls delete thread
Sheriff: Excellent. Also, keep this external baggage off this forum.