DM Help Am I the only one who is upset about Red Dragons? [Archive]

SLOTHRPG95

2019-05-04, 09:30 PM

The above points all stand, I'd just add that there's also somewhat of a Silver-Red dichotomy. Not only do they have the same number of HD (and the same CR) at any given age category, they share the same habitat, i.e. high up in the mountains. Furthermore, both are weak to the other's breath weapon, making combat between them especially bitter and deadly. Silvers start with a substantial advantage in mental stats that tapers off at the high end (who cares if your Wisdom is 27 or 31 if you basically auto-succeed Will saves either way?). Reds have better Str/Con, and generally are larger, but these advantages also taper off at the tail-end of their progression. Overall, these two are relatively evenly matched, allowing neither to gain dominance in their habitat.

Gold dragons often live on islands, at the bottom of large lakes, or in other coastal/aquatic environments, which is good for Reds b/c as mentioned, they're just strictly better. For the first six age categories, they at least share the same physical stats (although the Golds are faster, and have one extra hit die). Beyond that, they become stronger, tougher, and (for one age category) bigger than Reds, all while still having better mental stats and an equally-powerful (if ineffective, in this matchup) breath weapon. Reds can only somewhat be considered rivals to Golds for the first 200 years of their lives, and given that true dragons peak at just past 1,200 years old, that's not really impressive.

noob

2019-05-05, 05:40 AM

The kind of dragon that fights instead of fleeing lives often less than 200 years.(fights can get very deadly if you are unlucky and in 200 years you have high odds of dying if you even just have one fight per year)
The dragons that lives more than a thousand years are the most cowardly dragons which always thinks about fleeing first.
Then once the dragon is old enough for being one of the fastest creatures it will live mostly forever.
The occasional dragon that lived 1200 years the adventurers goes and kills is one of the rare dragons that lived long even if it had a fight first reaction on average.
So if you meet an old gold dragon and ask it "why do you not fight evil" the answer is probably "because I do not want my life to be short" but it will probably lie and say something with no meaning that could appear on a fortune cookie.

weckar

2019-05-05, 09:28 AM

It comes from an old D&D design philosophy that dates all the way back: Good has power, Evil has numbers. There's an old article about anti-paladins that goes into it more.

Kish

2019-05-05, 12:37 PM

If I wanted to make the Red Dragons stronger in some consistent way to match the Gold dragons, how might I do this,

*raises finger*

excluding of course simply swapping the stat blocks.
*puts finger down* Oh.

If you don't want to simply use gold dragon stats for red dragons or vice versa, I don't really have any helpful advice, I'm afraid. That's what I do. I dislike the "evil has numbers, good has power" thing because while "three white dragons are at least a match for a copper dragon and there are three times as many white dragons as copper dragons" works for a Manichean clash between Bahamut and Tiamat, it does nothing about the humanoid-PC level, where I believe every dragon should be something special; and I really dislike the "white dragons straddle the line between true sapients and violent, aggressive beasts" thing.

hamishspence

2019-05-05, 12:59 PM

I really dislike the "white dragons straddle the line between true sapients and violent, aggressive beasts" thing.

4e was probably the best edition for white dragon intelligence - "while remarkably bestial, they are as intelligent as other chromatic dragons".

Blackhawk748

2019-05-05, 01:27 PM

and I really dislike the "white dragons straddle the line between true sapients and violent, aggressive beasts" thing.

Ok, as the resident White Dragon fan, I feel I gotta point some stuff out. While White Dragons are the dumbest dragon, they are so much smarter than an animal, being Int 6 whereas your average Orc is Int 8, so not much of a difference there. Where White Dragons differ is in that they are absolutely savage. They don't care for social niceties, hell they don't even care to talk to their victims, even to gloat. That is because of one reason and one reason only.

Their environment.

White Dragons live in probably the single most hostile location in a fantasy world, the frozen north. Up here they start their lives as flying housecat-sized dispensers of frozen death. They behave much like Hawks or other flying predators and this lasts up until they hit Young, because now they're the size of a wolf and can't really sit on your average tree branch. So begins the next phase of their life.

Once they hit wolf-sized they start to become straight up ambush predators as they can't rely on being able to swoop down on their larger targets anymore. So they dig a hole or lie in a snowbank waiting for something to come by. Why don't they just track stuff? The could, but the long range hunter niche is filled by wolf packs, which the dragon can simply avoid competing with by being an ambush predator, which it is insanely good at. This comes to an end once it becomes Large though.

Now, the White Dragon has just spent the first 100 years or so of its life being some sort of ambush predator, and at no point was it the top of the local food chain, unlike how many other dragons can be. The fact that so many creatures up north can be resistant to its breath weapon means that it can't punch up as effectively as its relatives and so it had to avoid stuff like Winter Wolves. Now that it's large those things aren't as big of a threat, but it also needs more food, so they will often head to the ocean to eat seals and small whales. Except now its in direct competition with Frost Giants and other large sea-dwelling predators. Most of which are either highly resistant or outright immune, to its breath weapon. So it becomes a high speed, hit and run predator, returning to its origins as a mostly aerial hunter. Swooping down on prey and getting out before anything else gets close.

This continues until the dragon is at least a Mature Adult, as at that point it should be able to effectively take on multiple Frost Giants. Now, the White Dragon is, arguably, at the top of the land-based food chain, though it has to watch out for some waterborne predators. Its 400 years old, and only now is it at the top of its local food chain. Most dragons have been here for quite a while.

So what does it do from here? Continue what it's always done, be a large ambush predator, using ever more sophisticated tactics as it springs on its prey, possibly using bait and other lures to bring things into its reach. It may have found various ways to actually leverage its breath weapon, maybe it has an Energy Substitution feat for its Breath or it can Pierce Immunity? Each White Dragon will have carved out its specific hunting style and niche with blood, sweat and the shattered bodies of its prey. And each one will be a savage and implacable foe that will not be deterred. Because past Mature, the White Dragon only gets worse. Once it hits Gargantuan it knows that it is finally, at long last, the true Alpha Predator of the North and nothing will force it back into hiding.

Blue and Green Dragons can be bargained with, Black Dragons bribed or impressed, Red Dragons can be flattered, seduced, or otherwise have their egos stroked. White Dragons? White Dragons can't be negotiated with. You have nothing they want, nothing they care for, because nothing other than its survival matters to it, and you are its prey, and nothing gets away from a White Dragon.

ExLibrisMortis

2019-05-05, 01:45 PM

Ok, as the resident White Dragon fan, I feel I gotta point some stuff out. [...]
I'll be ripping out the white dragon description in my Monster Manual now, thanks. Just to be clear: it will be replaced by your post.

Blackhawk748

2019-05-05, 01:54 PM

I'll be ripping out the white dragon description in my Monster Manual now, thanks. Just to be clear: it will be replaced by your post.

That thing so undersells the White Dragon it's not even funny. Its an Intelligent creature that has an incredibly savage mindset that is fully capable of outrunning a horse on land, in the sky, in the water and underground. Have fun escaping it.

HouseRules

2019-05-05, 02:04 PM

I pretty sure if a dragon is not going to kill something, it would always do something to its own benefit, say like reproduction.

JNAProductions

2019-05-05, 02:06 PM

Ok, as the resident White Dragon fan, I feel I gotta point some stuff out. While White Dragons are the dumbest dragon, they are so much smarter than an animal, being Int 6 whereas your average Orc is Int 8, so not much of a difference there. Where White Dragons differ is in that they are absolutely savage. They don't care for social niceties, hell they don't even care to talk to their victims, even to gloat. That is because of one reason and one reason only.

Their environment.

White Dragons live in probably the single most hostile location in a fantasy world, the frozen north. Up here they start their lives as flying housecat-sized dispensers of frozen death. They behave much like Hawks or other flying predators and this lasts up until they hit Young, because now they're the size of a wolf and can't really sit on your average tree branch. So begins the next phase of their life.

Once they hit wolf-sized they start to become straight up ambush predators as they can't rely on being able to swoop down on their larger targets anymore. So they dig a hole or lie in a snowbank waiting for something to come by. Why don't they just track stuff? The could, but the long range hunter niche is filled by wolf packs, which the dragon can simply avoid competing with by being an ambush predator, which it is insanely good at. This comes to an end once it becomes Large though.

Now, the White Dragon has just spent the first 100 years or so of its life being some sort of ambush predator, and at no point was it the top of the local food chain, unlike how many other dragons can be. The fact that so many creatures up north can be resistant to its breath weapon means that it can't punch up as effectively as its relatives and so it had to avoid stuff like Winter Wolves. Now that it's large those things aren't as big of a threat, but it also needs more food, so they will often head to the ocean to eat seals and small whales. Except now its in direct competition with Frost Giants and other large sea-dwelling predators. Most of which are either highly resistant or outright immune, to its breath weapon. So it becomes a high speed, hit and run predator, returning to its origins as a mostly aerial hunter. Swooping down on prey and getting out before anything else gets close.

This continues until the dragon is at least a Mature Adult, as at that point it should be able to effectively take on multiple Frost Giants. Now, the White Dragon is, arguably, at the top of the land-based food chain, though it has to watch out for some waterborne predators. Its 400 years old, and only now is it at the top of its local food chain. Most dragons have been here for quite a while.

So what does it do from here? Continue what it's always done, be a large ambush predator, using ever more sophisticated tactics as it springs on its prey, possibly using bait and other lures to bring things into its reach. It may have found various ways to actually leverage its breath weapon, maybe it has an Energy Substitution feat for its Breath or it can Pierce Immunity? Each White Dragon will have carved out its specific hunting style and niche with blood, sweat and the shattered bodies of its prey. And each one will be a savage and implacable foe that will not be deterred. Because past Mature, the White Dragon only gets worse. Once it hits Gargantuan it knows that it is finally, at long last, the true Alpha Predator of the North and nothing will force it back into hiding.

Blue and Green Dragons can be bargained with, Black Dragons bribed or impressed, Red Dragons can be flattered, seduced, or otherwise have their egos stroked. White Dragons? White Dragons can't be negotiated with. You have nothing they want, nothing they care for, because nothing other than its survival matters to it, and you are its prey, and nothing gets away from a White Dragon.

Holy cramoly. That's good stuff.

hamishspence

2019-05-05, 02:07 PM

Works well for 4e and 5e too - though those would have to have the first bit removed, since white dragons start at wolf-sized in those.

Still, the eagle-style or snowy owl-style hunting strategy can work even if the dragon can't perch on a branch.

Instead it perches on a crag or a mound of snow.

Blackhawk748

2019-05-05, 03:35 PM

I pretty sure if a dragon is not going to kill something, it would always do something to its own benefit, say like reproduction.

This is completely true, its just that White Dragons very rarely would care about anything other than killing stuff that invades their territory. They fought hard to get that.

Holy cramoly. That's good stuff.

Thank you. I love the White Dragon and always felt it got the short end of the stick, until I looked closer at its capabilites and realized what a true monster it really is.

Still, the eagle-style or snowy owl-style hunting strategy can work even if the dragon can't perch on a branch.

Instead it perches on a crag or a mound of snow.

While it certainly can, that would limit its range. It its born near a series of craggy hills or something similar then I would assume it would until its Large.

Otherwise I would assume that a White Dragon would go for the Ambushing Big Cat approach to hunting, only flying once the prey is nearby as a means to close the distance.

ViperMagnum357

2019-05-05, 04:43 PM

Something else to tack onto the White Dragon that mechanically supports what Blackhawk748 said above: take a look at their speed. They are tied for the fastest on the ground, in the air, in the water, and burrowing among the basic ten types, with only the Brass matching them in each category. They are the only one to get all 4 movement types as default; plus Icewalking for maneuverability and an (Ex) Climb speed in basically every environment-all its natural ones, plus the breath weapon can ice over most battlefields if the Dragon has a few minutes to prep.

Also, the fact that they are only G at Great Wyrm means they get two boosts to their flight speed when you advance them to C and C+ using the Advanced Dragon template from the ELH; at that point their flight speed can only be matched by Brass at 350 feet base. Ambush and pursuit speed is definitely the name of the game for them.

inuyasha

2019-05-06, 03:14 AM

-Awesome white dragon stuff-

Oh my gosh, that's amazing! In your view of white dragons, how does the classic "dragon hoarding instinct" fit in?

Mordaedil

2019-05-06, 04:20 AM

Thank you. I love the White Dragon and always felt it got the short end of the stick, until I looked closer at its capabilites and realized what a true monster it really is.
It might be even be the fact that the white dragon is an underdog that drew you to it in the first place.

You know, if you consider your write-up, I can suddenly see a lot more of the white dragon in Tiamat than any other dragon. I always thought she was extremely lacking in draconic trait until I took this last paragraph your wrote into consideration.

noob

2019-05-06, 06:30 AM

ericgrau

2019-05-06, 08:09 AM

It's a CR difference of 1. Red dragons can still be rivals. You don't need a tie to be a rival. They're barely even underdogs.

As for white dragons, I'll add that they have a burrow speed, a swim speed, a climb speed on icy surfaces, hide, move silently and swim. They're silent predators that stalk their prey, so feel free to have them pop out of the water or the ground itself. Heck they can escape back into the ground as fast as a PC can run away, if their health drops too low or too fast. Once you get into CR 15+ they have freezing fog too, which is like quickened solid fog + widened grease (ice ~ grease). So you have their personality, their abilities, and now have fun with that.

They're also portrayed as master hunters in 5e and other lore. I haven't checked their entry in the 3.5e MM. It's not like this is homebrew. A lack of description in MM1 perhaps. I haven't checked.

Several common monsters sneak up on foes even without a great hide/move silently modifier, and even those that favor melee tend to have thrown weapons to open with. Distance penalties keep it viable, until the PCs get closer, the foe attacks, or someone rolls high on spot/listen (and then only that person might avoid the surprise round). The SRD is brief but it's there, and maybe (or maybe not) MM1 has more. Something to look into for monsters in general.

hamishspence

2019-05-06, 08:13 AM

ericgrau

2019-05-06, 08:23 AM

Most sources that mention subsisting on rocks or plants also suggest that chromatic dragons truly hate doing so. And that they need to eat vastly more to get the same amount of nutrient as meat provides.

There may come a point where the energy required to dig up and break the rocks into bite sized pieces, vastly exceeds the energy obtained from the same rocks when swallowed.

Also more noticeable to consume vast amounts of foliage or rock, to the local army, heroes or huge magical beasts. While proud and more powerful than most, that doesn't mean they wouldn't prefer to be stealthy feeders to get all the advantage they can.

Blackhawk748

2019-05-06, 09:21 AM

All of this would make more sense if they did not write that dragons can feed on anything including rocks.
So white dragons needing to predate is just nonsensical with the already existing fluff for dragons allowing them to subsist on anything including rocks.

Adding on to what others have already mentioned, there's also the fact that I can only assume that rocks and dirt taste vile. I mean, humans can live on cattails (the plant, not the appendage) and tree bark, both are all over the place. We don't because it's not terribly appetizing. Thats what separates a White Dragon from a true beast, it actually cares about what it's eating.

Also I'm on my phone atm, but someone asked what I think they do for hoarding. I honestly don't think they do, at least nowhere near the levels that other dragons do. A White Dragon cares about survival first and foremost, so what good does gold do it? On top of this, what is there of mineral value in it's home region?

Really I feel any horde a White Dragon has is simply from it's kills or things it happened to find that it likes for one reason or another, so it's probably made up of weapons or neat looking rocks

Keltest

2019-05-06, 09:35 AM

Adding on to what others have already mentioned, there's also the fact that I can only assume that rocks and dirt taste vile. I mean, humans can live on cattails (the plant, not the appendage) and tree bark, both are all over the place. We don't because it's not terribly appetizing. Thats what separates a White Dragon from a true beast, it actually cares about what it's eating.

Also I'm on my phone atm, but someone asked what I think they do for hoarding. I honestly don't think they do, at least nowhere near the levels that other dragons do. A White Dragon cares about survival first and foremost, so what good does gold do it? On top of this, what is there of mineral value in it's home region?

Really I feel any horde a White Dragon has is simply from it's kills or things it happened to find that it likes for one reason or another, so it's probably made up of weapons or neat looking rocks

To me, a hoard would be a sign of immense stature among white dragons. Theyre probably in the worst situation of any dragon kind for the collection of wealth, so even a modest treasure pile means they've been immensely successful in staking out and controlling territory. Especially when theyre in competition with frost giants and other treasure-collecting creatures who, unlike with other dragons, actually stand a chance of fending it off for its early few hundred years should they actually find its lair.

noob

2019-05-06, 10:11 AM

Also more noticeable to consume vast amounts of foliage or rock, to the local army, heroes or huge magical beasts. While proud and more powerful than most, that doesn't mean they wouldn't prefer to be stealthy feeders to get all the advantage they can.

I think killing a thinking creature is way more noticeable: thinking creatures keeps tabs on each other and when one dies there can be an investigation.
Also humans does not wanders in frost giant controlled territory unless there is an agreement with frost giants and when an human or frost giant dies there would be investigation to find if the culprit is the other side(in case of an agreement).
So eating rocks and foliages are probably both way less noticeable than eating thinking creatures and way less likely to result in retribution(it is the "who cares if there is some creature eating rocks here" phenomenon).
Eating living creatures might be noticeable too because there is not much living in frozen places so if you eat a dozen prey people can figure out it is more desolate than before because you removed most animal life in a really huge surface.

hamishspence

2019-05-06, 10:21 AM

I think killing a thinking creature is way more noticeable: thinking creatures keeps tabs on each other and when one dies there can be an investigation.

Hence it probably eating what eagles or owls eat (hares, ptarmigan, etc) as a youngster and seals/whales as it grows older, not intelligent beings (mostly):

Now that it's large those things aren't as big of a threat, but it also needs more food, so they will often head to the ocean to eat seals and small whales.

Interestingly, in Draconomicon, a point is made of how even the sample wyrmling tries for whale meat.

ericgrau

2019-05-06, 10:57 AM

I think killing a thinking creature is way more noticeable: thinking creatures keeps tabs on each other and when one dies there can be an investigation.
Also humans does not wanders in frost giant controlled territory unless there is an agreement with frost giants and when an human or frost giant dies there would be investigation to find if the culprit is the other side(in case of an agreement).
So eating rocks and foliages are probably both way less noticeable than eating thinking creatures and way less likely to result in retribution(it is the "who cares if there is some creature eating rocks here" phenomenon).
Eating living creatures might be noticeable too because there is not much living in frozen places so if you eat a dozen prey people can figure out it is more desolate than before because you removed most animal life in a really huge surface.

You can eliminate a creature's entire body and depart in a matter of rounds while leaving little or no evidence behind. In a society where young death is too common. Sure someone will go searching in the woods, but most likely they won't even go in the direction of your lair. You're going to interact with civilization anyway because dragons like treasure too. Even white dragons have triple standard. Eating livestock is a fair compromise though, or whatever is most convenient and tasty. But many dragons view humanoids as animals and eating livestock is more a matter of menu preference and avoiding a little more attention, rather than a hard rule.

Segev

2019-05-06, 11:16 AM

White dragon wyrmlings are my favorite chassis for Dragonfire Adept builds, as a side note. I like to try to talk the DM into giving me a custom evocation that functions like grease but with an ice slick, because it then doubles as a personal spider climb-enabler. Also into letting me stack the 1d6 of his breath weapon with the cold breath weapon, rather than trying to have two breath weapons that are both cold, one of which just sucks. But they remain cool (pun intended) even without those boosts.

The burrow speed makes for an interesting point, as well: a white dragon can technically dive into the ground, seamlessly transitioning from flight to burrowing, without needing a jump check or anything.

Viewing Red Dragons as the natural rivals of Silvers but thinking of themselves as rivaling Golds is actually a good way to do it. They're the Ego Dragons, after all.

I'm kind-of amused by the idea of a clutch of Silvers and a clutch of Reds being found by an adventuring party who came across the corpses of their parents having fought to death, and the party taking the surviving eggs in and hatching them and raising them together. Maybe one of each, maybe more. And having some Red and Silver wyrmlings who grow up as siblings. Maybe with proclivities that make them fight a lot, but still with that familial bond that says "nobody but me gets to mess with my brother."

Anthrowhale

2019-05-06, 11:54 AM

Gold > Red ~= Silver > Blue ~= Bronze > Green ~= Copper > Black ~= Brass > White

This is comparing with a fixed age category. For a DM, comparing with a fixed CR also seems relevant. In this case, Black & White dragons are remarkably scary. Comparing for example CR 20 dragons:

Black G, 34HD, Attack+42, Fort 25, Refl 19, Will 23, 22d4 Acid(DC 34), Fright(DC 31), 60/Fly 200(clumsy)/Swim 60, AC 39, DR 20/magic, Caster level 13, SR 26
Brass, H, 31HD, Attack+40, Fort 23, Refl 17, Will 21, 10d6 Fire/Sleep(DC 31), Fright(DC 29), 60/Burrow 30/Fly 200(poor), AC 38, DR 15/magic, Caster level 15, SR 27
Bronze, H, 30HD, Attack+39, Fort 23, Refl 17, Will 23, 18d6 Lightning/Repulsion (DC 31), Fright(DC 31), 40/Fly 150(poor)/Swim 60, AC 37, DR 15/magic, Caster level 13, SR 26
Copper, H, 29HD, Attack+37, Fort 22, Refl 16, Will 21, 18d4 Acid/Slow(DC 30), Fright(DC 29), 40/Fly 150(poor), AC 36, DR 15/magic, Caster level 13, SR 26
Silver H, 28HD, Attack+36, Fort 22, Refl 16, Will 22, 16d8 Cold/Paralysis(DC 30), Fright(DC 30), 40/Fly 150(poor), AC 35, DR 10/magic, Caster level 11, SR 26
Red, G, 28HD, Attack+36, Fort 23, Refl 16, Will 21, 16d10 Fire(DC 31), Fright(DC 29), 40/Fly 200(clumsy), AC 33, DR 10/magic, Caster level 11, SR 24

Black is a melee brute with a caster level second only to Brass. Red and Silver are both relative melee wimps and have a lower caster level.

HouseRules

2019-05-06, 12:02 PM

My house rule is that Dragons have a gap of 3 HD for each age category, so split the age category into third.

1st third - Dragons have the listed Hit Dice.
2nd third - Dragons have 1 additional Hit Dice than listed, but insufficient to gain CR.
3rd third - Dragons have 2 additional Hit Dice than listed, and gains 1 CR.

You need to also check the other dragons (White, Blue, Green, and Gold) for CR 19, and add 2 HD to make them CR 20 to compare.

Edit:

Black G, 34HD, Attack+42, Fort 25, Refl 19, Will 23, 22d4 Acid(DC 34), Fright(DC 31), 60/Fly 200(clumsy)/Swim 60, AC 39, DR 20/magic, Caster level 13, SR 26
Brass, H, 31HD, Attack+40, Fort 23, Refl 17, Will 21, 10d6 Fire/Sleep(DC 31), Fright(DC 29), 60/Burrow 30/Fly 200(poor), AC 38, DR 15/magic, Caster level 15, SR 27
Bronze, H, 30HD, Attack+39, Fort 23, Refl 17, Will 23, 18d6 Lightning/Repulsion (DC 31), Fright(DC 31), 40/Fly 150(poor)/Swim 60, AC 37, DR 15/magic, Caster level 13, SR 26
Copper, H, 29HD, Attack+37, Fort 22, Refl 16, Will 21, 18d4 Acid/Slow(DC 30), Fright(DC 29), 40/Fly 150(poor), AC 36, DR 15/magic, Caster level 13, SR 26
Silver H, 28HD, Attack+36, Fort 22, Refl 16, Will 22, 16d8 Cold/Paralysis(DC 30), Fright(DC 30), 40/Fly 150(poor), AC 35, DR 10/magic, Caster level 11, SR 26
Red, G, 28HD, Attack+36, Fort 23, Refl 16, Will 21, 16d10 Fire(DC 31), Fright(DC 29), 40/Fly 200(clumsy), AC 33, DR 10/magic, Caster level 11, SR 24

White G, 33HD +2, Attack+41 +2, Fort 25 +1, Refl 18 +1, Will 20 +1, 11d6 Cold(DC 33), Fright(DC 29), 60/Burrow 30/Fly 250(clumsy)/Swim 60, AC 38, DR 20/magic, Caster level 11, SR 25
Green H, 29HD +2, Attack+38 +2, Fort 22 +1, Refl 16 +1, Will 20 +1, 18d6 Poison(DC 30), Fright(DC 28), 40/Fly 150(poor)/Swim 40, AC 36, DR 15/magic, Caster level 11, SR 25
Blue H, 30HD +2, Attack+39 +2, Fort 23 +1, Refl 17 +1, Will 21 +1, 18d8 Lightning(DC 31), 40/Burrow 20/Fly 150(poor), AC 37, DC 15/magic, Caster level 11, SR 25
Gold H, 26HD +2, Attack+36 +2, Fort 21 +1, Refl 15 +1, Will 20+1, 14d10 Fire(DC 29), Fright(DC 28), 60/Fly 200(poor), Swim 60, AC 33, DR 10/magic, Caster level 9, SR 25

Psychoalpha

2019-05-06, 01:17 PM

<Stuff on white dragons>

White dragons got referred to as 'training dragons' in a game recently, and it was probably my favorite thing to come up in that session. ;D

Anthrowhale

2019-05-06, 02:01 PM

You need to also check the other dragons (White, Blue, Green, and Gold) for CR 19, and add 2 HD to make them CR 20 to compare.

Edit:

Black G, 34HD, Attack+42, Fort 25, Refl 19, Will 23, 22d4 Acid(DC 34), Fright(DC 31), 60/Fly 200(clumsy)/Swim 60, AC 39, DR 20/magic, Caster level 13, SR 26
Brass, H, 31HD, Attack+40, Fort 23, Refl 17, Will 21, 10d6 Fire/Sleep(DC 31), Fright(DC 29), 60/Burrow 30/Fly 200(poor), AC 38, DR 15/magic, Caster level 15, SR 27
Bronze, H, 30HD, Attack+39, Fort 23, Refl 17, Will 23, 18d6 Lightning/Repulsion (DC 31), Fright(DC 31), 40/Fly 150(poor)/Swim 60, AC 37, DR 15/magic, Caster level 13, SR 26
Copper, H, 29HD, Attack+37, Fort 22, Refl 16, Will 21, 18d4 Acid/Slow(DC 30), Fright(DC 29), 40/Fly 150(poor), AC 36, DR 15/magic, Caster level 13, SR 26
Silver H, 28HD, Attack+36, Fort 22, Refl 16, Will 22, 16d8 Cold/Paralysis(DC 30), Fright(DC 30), 40/Fly 150(poor), AC 35, DR 10/magic, Caster level 11, SR 26
Red, G, 28HD, Attack+36, Fort 23, Refl 16, Will 21, 16d10 Fire(DC 31), Fright(DC 29), 40/Fly 200(clumsy), AC 33, DR 10/magic, Caster level 11, SR 24

White G, 33HD +2, Attack+41 +2, Fort 25 +1, Refl 18 +1, Will 20 +1, 11d6 Cold(DC 33), Fright(DC 29), 60/Burrow 30/Fly 250(clumsy)/Swim 60, AC 38, DR 20/magic, Caster level 11, SR 25
Green H, 29HD +2, Attack+38 +2, Fort 22 +1, Refl 16 +1, Will 20 +1, 18d6 Poison(DC 30), Fright(DC 28), 40/Fly 150(poor)/Swim 40, AC 36, DR 15/magic, Caster level 11, SR 25
Blue H, 30HD +2, Attack+39 +2, Fort 23 +1, Refl 17 +1, Will 21 +1, 18d8 Lightning(DC 31), 40/Burrow 20/Fly 150(poor), AC 37, DC 15/magic, Caster level 11, SR 25
Gold H, 26HD +2, Attack+36 +2, Fort 21 +1, Refl 15 +1, Will 20+1, 14d10 Fire(DC 29), Fright(DC 28), 60/Fly 200(poor), Swim 60, AC 33, DR 10/magic, Caster level 9, SR 25

Thanks. I'd put Black (melee edge), Brass (spells edge), or White (movement edge) on top amongst these. It's a rather different picture from what you get looking at age categories.

exelsisxax

2019-05-06, 02:11 PM

No, the red dragons are also very upset. Why do you think they're always out eating people at a sufficient distance away from any golds? The chromatics are not enjoying the short stick.

Blackhawk748

2019-05-06, 04:45 PM

To me, a hoard would be a sign of immense stature among white dragons. Theyre probably in the worst situation of any dragon kind for the collection of wealth, so even a modest treasure pile means they've been immensely successful in staking out and controlling territory. Especially when theyre in competition with frost giants and other treasure-collecting creatures who, unlike with other dragons, actually stand a chance of fending it off for its early few hundred years should they actually find its lair.

Thats actually a really interesting idea. I would imagine that it would mostly be a mating thing, a show of "look how freaking awesome I am at this, therefore my kids will be too" to sort of signla to their more primal instincts.

Interestingly, in Draconomicon, a point is made of how even the sample wyrmling tries for whale meat.

Kinda makes sense I guess. A stony beach in the artic is prime hunting groudns for them, very little cover and plenty of things to grab as well as fish should they need it. I think a Wyrmling might be able to take on a Beluga or other small whale and if not, scavenge one. That would set it up nicely for awhile.

<Stuff on white dragons>

White dragons got referred to as 'training dragons' in a game recently, and it was probably my favorite thing to come up in that session. ;D

The someone has never met a properly run White Dragon, because it should be like being stalked by a Slasher Killer the size of a house

No, the red dragons are also very upset. Why do you think they're always out eating people at a sufficient distance away from any golds? The chromatics are not enjoying the short stick.

I think the power dispairty between the Chromatics and the Metallic isn't all that huge honestly. I mean, White's have some of the highest AC for their CR among the base dragons.

As for Reds.... they are arrogance incarnate. Think of Smaug, thats a Red.

HouseRules

2019-05-06, 05:26 PM

Half-White Dragon Red Dragon
Father: Red Dragon
Mother: White Dragon

Half-Red Dragon White Dragon
Father: White Dragon
Mother: Red Dragon

Guess which one is more common?
The first one because by age, Red Dragons are stronger, and they are more likely to penetrate the other Chromatic Dragons.

2E-like ruling on the Half-Dragon and Base Dragon:
Chromatic Dragons have a base like their father, and a half-dragon template of their mother.
Metallic Dragons have a base like their mother, and a half-dragon template of their father.
A Mixed Chromatic Metallic Dragon is not defined.

Keltest

2019-05-06, 08:47 PM

Thats actually a really interesting idea. I would imagine that it would mostly be a mating thing, a show of "look how freaking awesome I am at this, therefore my kids will be too" to sort of signla to their more primal instincts.

It could be that, it could be a trophy taking impulse, it could be that they just like shiny things like some birds. I can think of a few reasons why they would independently start doing it even if they raised themselves up from nothing, but all of them come down to being an indicator of success in their niche. A white dragon is still a dragon, after all, even if they have to work the hardest to climb the ladder.

Blackhawk748

2019-05-06, 09:10 PM

It could be that, it could be a trophy taking impulse, it could be that they just like shiny things like some birds. I can think of a few reasons why they would independently start doing it even if they raised themselves up from nothing, but all of them come down to being an indicator of success in their niche. A white dragon is still a dragon, after all, even if they have to work the hardest to climb the ladder.

Frankly, I can see it being all three, and that it winds up meaning even more to the White Dragon than the others. After all, they had to work even harder to get it than any of the others.

Which means that any White Dragon that plays Xorvintaal (or, however, that's spelled) has got to be freaking terrifying as I only see one doing that if they are confident in their ability to win.

Mordaedil

2019-05-07, 01:13 AM

Gross stuff.
What is wrong with you?

Psyren

2019-05-07, 01:35 AM

or red dragons or vice versa, I don't really have any helpful advice, I'm afraid. That's what I do. I dislike the "evil has numbers, good has power" thing because while "three white dragons are at least a match for a copper dragon and there are three times as many white dragons as copper dragons" works for a Manichean clash between Bahamut and Tiamat, it does nothing about the humanoid-PC level, where I believe every dragon should be something special; and I really dislike the "white dragons straddle the line between true sapients and violent, aggressive beasts" thing.

That paradigm doesn't stop dragons from being special :smallconfused: There are infinite demons for example, but for most adventurers, encountering one (of almost any kind) is still a pretty big milestone in their career. And that's as true for the mid-tier baddies like succubi and hezrou as it is for the heavy hitters like balors and bebiliths.

The fact that a red dragon is mechanically weaker than a gold doesn't stop a red from being a capable boss fight.

137beth

2019-05-07, 01:44 AM

I house-ruled that chromatic and metallic dragons are really the same species, and they each have a dimorphism of scale colors. So, for fire dragons, most fire dragons have either red or gold scales, but in rare circumstances they can be somewhere in between. The dimorphism lead to a common misconception that red and gold dragons are two different species.

I address the stat differences between chromatic and metallic dragons by saying that they are just different individuals. The gold dragon statblocks in the Monster Manual correspond to slightly older fire dragons than the red dragon statblocks of the same age category. There isn't really any part of the gold dragon statblock that doesn't work if you use it as a red dragon statblock.

Psychoalpha

2019-05-08, 08:19 AM

The someone has never met a properly run White Dragon, because it should be like being stalked by a Slasher Killer the size of a house

What? White dragons start out literally the size of a cat. A wyrmling white dragon, CR2, is Tiny. Most other Chromatics, aside from White and Black, start Small which is at least the size of a Halfling. :p

Even by CR 11, at Mature Adult, they're only Large. Hell, even an Ancient White Dragon is only Huge. Not that Huge isn't pretty goddamn big, but it is at best the size of a decent bedroom. They don't even hit Gargantuan until Great Wyrm. Meanwhile virtually every other kind of dragon is bigger, smarter, and very rarely limited to effectiveness in a single very specific environment.

I'm not knocking white dragons for the challenge they present to appropriately leveled PCs, I'm knocking white dragons in the sense that if I know there's an <insert age category here> dragon I'm going to have to face I will hope and pray that it's a white or black dragon and not literally any other Chromatic.

So. Training dragons. Everybody's got to start somewhere, and you might as well start with the bottom of the dragon pile.

Blackhawk748

2019-05-08, 05:05 PM

What? White dragons start out literally the size of a cat. A wyrmling white dragon, CR2, is Tiny. Most other Chromatics, aside from White and Black, start Small which is at least the size of a Halfling. :p

Even by CR 11, at Mature Adult, they're only Large. Hell, even an Ancient White Dragon is only Huge. Not that Huge isn't pretty goddamn big, but it is at best the size of a decent bedroom. They don't even hit Gargantuan until Great Wyrm. Meanwhile virtually every other kind of dragon is bigger, smarter, and very rarely limited to effectiveness in a single very specific environment.

I'm not knocking white dragons for the challenge they present to appropriately leveled PCs, I'm knocking white dragons in the sense that if I know there's an <insert age category here> dragon I'm going to have to face I will hope and pray that it's a white or black dragon and not literally any other Chromatic.

So. Training dragons. Everybody's got to start somewhere, and you might as well start with the bottom of the dragon pile.

How big are your bedrooms? Huge is 15x15 which is fairly large, even for a room, and don't forget we're talking about High to Late Medieval houses which are family small. Also, size isn't everything, and in fact, the White being smaller makes it more effective as an ambush predator.

And Whites are as optimized for their environment as every other Chromatic, and it's not even like Cold Place is a small environmental niche. In our world their range would be all of Russia, Northern Europe, Antartica, Northern Canada and Alaska. That's a massive area they could live in.

As for hoping for Whites or Blacks, I'd much prefer to fight a Red. Reds are predictable in their arrogance and sense of superiority, while the White is a hyper intelligent Tiger and the Black has been surviving because of intelligence and deception.