Swapping 3x3 alignment in pathfinder for color wheel alignment.

[Zhentarim]

What crunch would I need to change if I was replacing the standard alignment rules with one based on competing philosophies, like that found in mtg?

[Alexvrahr]

Mainly you'd need a definition of what the opposing alignment is. If you're literally using MtG's five colours then that gets a bit awkward; would Protection from White be a [Red] or a [Black] spell? Would Smite Evil from a White paladin target both Red and Black or just one? If you write in rules to back up the colour associations then you could have more problems of course.

[Psyren]

Smite, Detect, and aligned spells would be the big ones to think about. Also the classes that rely on alignment (clerics, druids, paladins etc.)

[HouseRules]

Opposite Alignment: Even D&D has issues. What's the official opposite of Neutral?

[Seto]

Opposite Alignment: Even D&D has issues. What's the official opposite of Neutral?

All four corner alignments, if you go by Helm of Opposite alignment or Intelligent magic items (purpose of slaying creatures of opposite alignment). Then again, it's not quite symmetrical with Good or Evil, since there are fewer Neutral spells or abilities (no "Smite Aligned", etc.)

[Particle_Man]

Maybe do a Rock Paper Scissors model where colour A can detect or smite colour B, B does C, etc., and E detects or smites A.

[Buufreak]

The logical step is to use in game terms. Using the above example of white, it had allied colors of green and blue, and enemy colors of red and black.

[Cosi]

Figuring out what protection from chaos or Smite Evil turn into sounds hard, but it's actually fairly easy, because there aren't that many of those abilities. The hard thing is figuring out what happens to all the creatures. What creatures get the White subtype? Do all creatures with the Evil subtype become Black? Fire Elementals should probably get the Red subtype, but should other elementals get "alignment" subtypes? That's way more work to figure out, because there are way more creatures with alignment subtypes than pretty much anything else that interacts with alignment.

There's some other stuff that's probably worth considering too. For example, while you can't really have an Evil Good alignment, it's entirely acceptable to have a Red White alignment. There's also some semi-procedural stuff you need to consider, like the 2nd and 6th level spells for the Green domain. Overall, I think this is a positive change though. The MTG alignments are just so much better than the D&D ones that it justifies a great deal of work converting stuff.

[hamishspence]

This thread:

Alignment Replacement: The Color Wheel (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?157001-Alignment-Replacement-The-Color-Wheel-3-5-PEACH)

does a lot of the work.

[Zhentarim]

I'm pretty sure I'm primarily black or primarily blue, with secondary white (and secondary black or blue). I don't believe in white per se, but its a powerful method to use for blue/black ends.

[Mordaedil]

If you have a 5-wheel alignment chart, the opposite are just the two on the other side. So a paladin of white would be capable of detecting/smiting black and red. Protection spells would pick a specific color. Most work would need to be put into changing up stuff like shield of law, holy aura and the like alignment specific spells. And you'd need to change up the domains. And suddenly druids would be all about green alignment instead of being neutral.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

Rather than protection from X color I think protection from opposed to X color would work better (or protection for [color] if you want less of a mouthful). That way each spell works on 2 of 5 colors instead of 1 of five, which is more in line with the current protection spells working on 1/3 of the alignment chart each.

Likewise for Smite X. Maybe do a similar rename, and call it Y Smite rather than Smite X. So paladins, instead of having Smite Evil would have White Smite, which works on the opposed colors (black and blue?).

On that note, you'll probably want a paladin variant for each color, like the standard Honor, Freedom, Tyranny, and Slaughter. How will Incarnates and Soulborns work? Seems like Incarnates would obviously have to be single colored. Probably Soulborns too, if only for convenience.

[Kurald Galain]

Mainly you'd need a definition of what the opposing alignment is. If you're literally using MtG's five colours then that gets a bit awkward; would Protection from White be a [Red] or a [Black] spell? Would Smite Evil from a White paladin target both Red and Black or just one? If you write in rules to back up the colour associations then you could have more problems of course.

The catch with having five colors, and MtG does this well, is realizing that they should not be equal. For example, MtG doesn't try to give First Strike to an equal amount of blue and white creatures. Rather, first strike is a white (and red) ability, and blue just doesn't get that. Conversely, blue gets counterspells whereas green does not.

If you try to fit everything in each philosophy, then the color wheel becomes pointless. So white gets paladins and red does not; green gets druids but blue does not; and so forth.

[Serafina]

This thread:

Alignment Replacement: The Color Wheel (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?157001-Alignment-Replacement-The-Color-Wheel-3-5-PEACH)

does a lot of the work.I disagree with some of the mechanical changes suggested in that thread:
- Channel Energy makes just as much sense under a Color paradigm as it does under a an alignment one. You'd open up who gets to do positive/negative energy channeling, but there's fundamentally no need to take away a class feature like this. If you do want to change it, getting away from just positive/negative channeling and offering up choices of alternate channelings would be a good idea.
- Nor is it necessary to say that Undead now interact with positive/negative energy like living things. Undead are still a thing under the color wheel, them being harmed by positive energy isn't because they're evil, but because of clashing magical forces. White being really good against the undead is still a thing, Black having an affinity for them is still a thing.
- Monks can very much (https://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Search/Default.aspx?mark=+%5BJeskai%5D) be Red (https://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Search/Default.aspx?mark=+%5BJeskai%5D), the Jeskai are Blue, White and Red and are the iconic Monk faction in MtG.

Otherwise it's very well written, and makes a lot of good suggestion. Targeting Enemy Colors preserves most of the balance (2/5ths instead of 1/3rd) of the spells/abilities, and while it needs a different in-universe explanation since there's no "Metaphysical Red" to detect or rebuke, it provides examples for how you can handle that.

[Zhentarim]

What would a sympathetic portrayal of black/blue protagonist fighting a green antagonist look like?

What are the differences between blue/black, blue/black/white, blue/black/green, and blue/black/red?

[Kyutaru]

What would a sympathetic portrayal of black/blue protagonist fighting a green antagonist look like?

What are the differences between blue/black, blue/black/white, blue/black/green, and blue/black/red?

Black/Blue is about grabbing all the power you can and a lust for more. He truly doesn't care what he destroys to get at what he wants while the Green guy is all about saying "Stop messing with stuff" because the world is just fine the way it is. So while the green guy is busy defending nature and defending secrets, the blue/black guy is actively pursuing and seeking them out.

In a way, the green guy is the religious zealot while the black/blue guy is the blasphemous scientist. They don't get along at all. One wants to enjoy the status quo while the other strives for change.

Black/Blue on its own is as mentioned, the shadowy villain who's all about selfish quest for knowledge and power by any means necessary.

Black/Blue/White is the Lawful Evil shady villain who believes in the same pursuit but does so within reason, limiting himself by the laws of society, working as a team, and possibly not even seeing himself as the bad guy. This is all necessary for the greater good, though from a methodology standpoint it just means he's a manipulative prick that fanatically pursues his selfish desires without stepping out of bounds.

Black/Blue/Green pursues the ancient ways before the world was messed up by all these terrible people. He seeks power but respects the planet, possibly even wishing to eradicate others from it. The Final Fantasy villain Sephiroth fits here in my opinion, a level-headed seeker of forbidden ancient power on a quest to purge what's wrong with the world -- everyone else.

Black/Blue/Red doesn't hide in the shadows or do anything by subtle means. He's the tyrant, the conqueror, the viking that pillages every town of its usefulness and then moves on. This is the guy who finds the library of scrolls, takes what he wants from it, then burns the place down. Entire nations can't stand in his way because his first instinct to overcoming any barrier is to smash right through it.

[Zhentarim]

Black/Blue is about grabbing all the power you can and a lust for more. He truly doesn't care what he destroys to get at what he wants while the Green guy is all about saying "Stop messing with stuff" because the world is just fine the way it is. So while the green guy is busy defending nature and defending secrets, the blue/black guy is actively pursuing and seeking them out.

In a way, the green guy is the religious zealot while the black/blue guy is the blasphemous scientist. They don't get along at all. One wants to enjoy the status quo while the other strives for change.

Black/Blue on its own is as mentioned, the shadowy villain who's all about selfish quest for knowledge and power by any means necessary.

Black/Blue/White is the Lawful Evil shady villain who believes in the same pursuit but does so within reason, limiting himself by the laws of society, working as a team, and possibly not even seeing himself as the bad guy. This is all necessary for the greater good, though from a methodology standpoint it just means he's a manipulative prick that fanatically pursues his selfish desires without stepping out of bounds.

Black/Blue/Green pursues the ancient ways before the world was messed up by all these terrible people. He seeks power but respects the planet, possibly even wishing to eradicate others from it. The Final Fantasy villain Sephiroth fits here in my opinion, a level-headed seeker of forbidden ancient power on a quest to purge what's wrong with the world -- everyone else.

Black/Blue/Red doesn't hide in the shadows or do anything by subtle means. He's the tyrant, the conqueror, the viking that pillages every town of its usefulness and then moves on. This is the guy who finds the library of scrolls, takes what he wants from it, then burns the place down. Entire nations can't stand in his way because his first instinct to overcoming any barrier is to smash right through it.

As interesting as it would be to be a wedge, as wedges best encapsulate the power of the color wheel by balancing the weaknesses of the two allied colors by their shared enemy, I'll have to admit I personally relate mostly to esper with a primary focus on black, secondary focus on blue, and tertiary focus on white. In spirit, I agree with voldemort and lex luthor, but I see their methods as their downfall. The best way to conquer a system is to work within the system to become the system, then altering the rules to your benefit once you reach a high enough power level. Machievelli's The Prince provides an effective path to power.

My personal roadblock to power and knowledge is a really bad case of ADHD--it makes situations where I need to create the structure necessary to gain power extremely difficult. Every time I gain a little power I make a careless mistake that knocks me back down.

[Kyutaru]

As interesting as it would be to be a wedge, as wedges best encapsulate the power of the color wheel by balancing the weaknesses of the two allied colors by their shared enemy, I'll have to admit I personally relate mostly to esper with a primary focus on black, secondary focus on blue, and tertiary focus on white. In spirit, I agree with voldemort and lex luthor, but I see their methods as their downfall. The best way to conquer a system is to work within the system to become the system, then altering the rules to your benefit once you reach a high enough power level. Machievelli's The Prince provides an effective path to power.

My personal roadblock to power and knowledge is a really bad case of ADHD--it makes situations where I need to create the structure necessary to gain power extremely difficult. Every time I gain a little power I make a careless mistake that knocks me back down.

I can relate to that extremely well and if you're young then I can say it gets easier with age. Learn patience and force yourself to stop and think. Become the Blue, suppress the Black, and respect the White. Though it sounds like you have a little Red in you prone to take Order and reduce it to Chaos on an emotional whim.

[Zhentarim]

I can relate to that extremely well and if you're young then I can say it gets easier with age. Learn patience and force yourself to stop and think. Become the Blue, suppress the Black, and respect the White. Though it sounds like you have a little Red in you prone to take Order and reduce it to Chaos on an emotional whim.

I definitely grew up with a bant mindset--I was born into an advisor role in a highly structured religious cult which was always seeking to expand its membership and reduce its membership into acting as a single unit--a colony. Thinking of all those wasted years supporting that borg-esque society have made me clench my jaw so hard I've chipped my teeth. I'm still a mild-mannered reserved person, but I have low-level simmering anger beneath the surface towards collectivist structures.

After I left the organization at the tender age of 20, I still wasn't comfortable acting as an individual for my own benefit and pursued study to design a perfect society with perfect systems to ensure the best outcomes for each individual while balancing that with a respect for freedom. Besides being constantly put down and passed over due to absentmindedness and meekness, I was falling behind even as I would give up what I needed to others because I wasn't comfortable acting for myself and my own needs when I could be acting to improve the way the world worked without resorting to the methods of my childhood and adolescent organization.

I studied philosophy and uncovered there is no right or wrong, only the power to enforce personal preferences and the drive to seek that power. I resolved at that point to take stock of what credentials I had already earned and what I could do to gain power. I determined health and wealth are the most potent forms of power, so I emphasize those two. I also don't let anybody guilt me into giving to others or helping others who I determined cannot help me in return. Everything must have a price.

My initial confusion led to some sub-optimal choices in my university training, but I made it work. I found how to increase my standing without incurring additional opportunity cost--so I work 3 jobs: pharmacist assistant, public school teacher, and children's show host--this nets me right at 90k a year if I work towards my full potential, but due to personal frailty and inefficiency, it works out to only about 70k a year.

I also spend time researching how to put my money to work to create a passive income stream. I haven't yet made a decision as I try to gather as much data as possible before committing resources to it, but dividend-bearing low volitilty index funds as well as blue chip securities and real estate in emerging cities like Tampa, FL, Orlando, FL, ect.

In my research on neuro-economics, I've uncovered some potential insights I'd like to formally test one day so I could publish them in an academic journal and set the stage to advance in academia, as the the way the law is written allows college deans to use all prior public teaching experience as a credit towards retirement according to the state's 3% defined benefit plan. I also intend to study the stucture of papers published from the higher paid disciplines so I will go into studying that advanced degree with some prior scholarship under my belt. Degrees are unnecessary in the age of the internet beyond as a formality, as peer reviewed journals are open for anybody to view and study.

If everything goes well, I'll retire from this state and continue in the same field in the next state over.

The issue at that point would be finding an heir to my fortune. I lack a sex drive and doubt I'm capable of romantic love--so I'll need to select an individual to inherit my earnings should I fail to unlock the secrets of immortality, ect.

I also have a tendency to monologue as well. Its a bad habit.

[Kyutaru]

I also have a tendency to monologue as well. Its a bad habit.
In public perhaps but it's normal for a repressed voice.

The degrees are optional for sure but you'll meet resistance from the other members of the academic community who took the arduous road and perhaps feel entitled to making you sweat for it. It's such an elite purview that actively oppresses young free thinkers that unless you already have wealth and power you may never make a real impact. If anyone can publish then you're amidst a sea of contenders and making any headway will require a chance in the spotlight.

I would look into ecommerce if you want passive income. It works well for me through Amazon and many old-fashioned giants still haven't made the switch. The fact that people can get continuous pay just for making a spreadsheet once still astounds me but I'll milk it dry until it stops being profitable. Dropshipping to fulfill orders means you don't even need your own storefront.

Best of luck and kudos to you for sustaining a triple employment schedule. I chose long ago to minimize my effort because I too was hit by a profound realization at my university while undertaking not just philosophy but psychology. Though to be honest those were merely the secondary focuses as my passion was and still is software related. Still I came to conclusion that wealth brings with it great access but also great stress and even greater struggles. True happiness for a dog is as basic as eating, sleeping, excreting, and fornicating. The more you add from there, the less meaning you find in what you do until all of life becomes a superficial hoax. Too often we age and retire before discovering that truth.

[Zhentarim]

In public perhaps but it's normal for a repressed voice.

The degrees are optional for sure but you'll meet resistance from the other members of the academic community who took the arduous road and perhaps feel entitled to making you sweat for it. It's such an elite purview that actively oppresses young free thinkers that unless you already have wealth and power you may never make a real impact. If anyone can publish then you're amidst a sea of contenders and making any headway will require a chance in the spotlight.

I would look into ecommerce if you want passive income. It works well for me through Amazon and many old-fashioned giants still haven't made the switch. The fact that people can get continuous pay just for making a spreadsheet once still astounds me but I'll milk it dry until it stops being profitable. Dropshipping to fulfill orders means you don't even need your own storefront.

Best of luck and kudos to you for sustaining a triple employment schedule. I chose long ago to minimize my effort because I too was hit by a profound realization at my university while undertaking not just philosophy but psychology. Though to be honest those were merely the secondary focuses as my passion was and still is software related. Still I came to conclusion that wealth brings with it great access but also great stress and even greater struggles. True happiness for a dog is as basic as eating, sleeping, excreting, and fornicating. The more you add from there, the less meaning you find in what you do until all of life becomes a superficial hoax. Too often we age and retire before discovering that truth.

I’ll look into that ecommerce. I’m looking to make as much passive income as I can by 55 so I can just straight up quit work but still have shelter, food, water, and enough money to travel to the beach regularly.

As much as I avoid buying expensive things, I also have this eye problem that can only be fixed with surgery—I’ll get the surgery.

[Zhentarim]

In public perhaps but it's normal for a repressed voice.

The degrees are optional for sure but you'll meet resistance from the other members of the academic community who took the arduous road and perhaps feel entitled to making you sweat for it. It's such an elite purview that actively oppresses young free thinkers that unless you already have wealth and power you may never make a real impact. If anyone can publish then you're amidst a sea of contenders and making any headway will require a chance in the spotlight.

I would look into ecommerce if you want passive income. It works well for me through Amazon and many old-fashioned giants still haven't made the switch. The fact that people can get continuous pay just for making a spreadsheet once still astounds me but I'll milk it dry until it stops being profitable. Dropshipping to fulfill orders means you don't even need your own storefront.

Best of luck and kudos to you for sustaining a triple employment schedule. I chose long ago to minimize my effort because I too was hit by a profound realization at my university while undertaking not just philosophy but psychology. Though to be honest those were merely the secondary focuses as my passion was and still is software related. Still I came to conclusion that wealth brings with it great access but also great stress and even greater struggles. True happiness for a dog is as basic as eating, sleeping, excreting, and fornicating. The more you add from there, the less meaning you find in what you do until all of life becomes a superficial hoax. Too often we age and retire before discovering that truth.

While there appears to be some smarter people on these forums in particular, I've had to grapple with the fact the vast majority of people I encounter are idiots--either unwilling or unable to learn basic concepts.

[Climowitz]

I changed to use color wheel. I disregarded lawful and chaotic, and made good or evil a perception of the creature not a variable used for anything. But as some people said, Smite, detect and aligned spells are the go to review. I used black / red for evil, white / green for good, blue / white for lawful and red / green for chaotic, but not as a permanent thing but more as a guide, of course you must the time will use a single color to aim the spells or abilities. Class restriction are a different thing but my suggestion is to take it away and let people play any class no matter the color, they should adapt to what they are, not what the class is. I also removed spell descriptors with alignments and instead think of the caster as the alignment of the spell if needed, however I adapted good and evil spells as sacred and profane also working like sanctified and vile spells.

Trust me if your players get how the wheel is seen or read it will be a major improvement.

[Zhentarim]

I changed to use color wheel. I disregarded lawful and chaotic, and made good or evil a perception of the creature not a variable used for anything. But as some people said, Smite, detect and aligned spells are the go to review. I used black / red for evil, white / green for good, blue / white for lawful and red / green for chaotic, but not as a permanent thing but more as a guide, of course you must the time will use a single color to aim the spells or abilities. Class restriction are a different thing but my suggestion is to take it away and let people play any class no matter the color, they should adapt to what they are, not what the class is. I also removed spell descriptors with alignments and instead think of the caster as the alignment of the spell if needed, however I adapted good and evil spells as sacred and profane also working like sanctified and vile spells.

Trust me if your players get how the wheel is seen or read it will be a major improvement.

That's odd--to me, that color guide goes more like this: Black/Green/Blue is evil-leaning, Red/White/Blue is Good-leaning, Red/Blue is Chaos-leaning, and White/Black/Blue is law-leaning and neutral is just Green by itself and/or colorless are neutral-leaning.

Actually, I could see good/evil/law/chaos in any color combination--but when I think of green/white I think of a hidebound society taking anything good or innovative and erasing it. The "wrath of the multitude", as I call it will destroy anybody wanting to improve their situation or live differently than what their masters want you to live as. I came from a very white/green group and I look upon white/green with horror and disgust.

I still affirm I'm primarily, centrally black with blue as a secondary color. White and Red occasionally come up as tertiary, but I wouldn't say they are especially important to me unless they help me acheive money, power, knowledge, or longevity. Green is especially fearsome to me becuase it urges people to accept their fate and never seek to be anything better.