Dual swords warlock.

[KyleG]

Despite all advice against I have begun playing a half elf character (hexblade 2) who is neither a single weapon weilder nor sword and board. Right now I see him as weilding dual swords. This may be far from optimal or ideal but I want to do what I can to ensure his success. Darkness and devils sight will be his bread and butter, with the mask or many faces his ooc schtick.
At This point what can I do to make this idea work. Is it worth a rogue or fighter dip? Is it worth a dual welding feat or maybe mobile?
I don't need to be told this is inferior, nor the virtues of pam. I just would like some help doing what I can with this concept that fits this character please.

[Kyutaru]

You can apply the Charisma damage of the Hexblade to both your hex touched weapon and any pact blade you summon. So if you're going dual wield, you need Pact of the Blade for that as well as the Two Weapon Fighting style to get damage on the off hand. That's probably a Fighter dip. Dual Wielder feat definitely is a bonus with a few extra attacks.

[Dualswinger]

Hexblade dual wield is possible since you can apply your hexblade cha proficiency to two weapons.

A single level of fighter to get twf style would be a good idea, maybe a second for action surge.

[Fredaintdead]

Other folks have already covered my recommendation on the Fighter level (seems like the best choice to me for grabbing the Fighting Style, and gives you more combat options going forward if you choose to take more Fighter levels), so I'll just talk about Dual Wielder.

I find Dual Wielder is a feat I only take when I want to fulfill a concept, rather than when I want power. Personally I take it whenever I think of doing TWF at all, but that's primarily because it lets you dual wield with longswords/warhammers/battleaxes, etc, etc. I'd recommend it, on the grounds of looking cooler, and the actual mechanical benefits will occasionally come in handy (frankly I always appreciate the ability to draw the two weapons at once more than the +1 AC or +1 avg damage per swing, primarily for the relief of not having to worry about drawing weapons). Saying that, if you're weapons of choice are already Light, then go for it.

Mobile I'd say is a good choice for later on, likely after boosting Charisma a little bit, and maybe a boost to Constitution/picking up Resilient Constitution. But that's down to my personal preferences (I like to boost stats first if the feats aren't integral to character concept).

[swamp_slug]

Since you are currently level 2 your Hex Warrior feature only applies to one of your weapons, meaning that only one weapon can attack using your Charisma, the other must use Strength or Dexterity. As the others before me have said, once you hit level 3 you should take Pact of the Blade so that Hex Warrior applies to both weapons.

Since you will have both your hands full spellcasting will be more difficult: the Warcaster feat will be essential for any V,S or S spells and if you have any V,S,M spells then you will want the Improved Pact Blade invocation in order to use your pact blade as an arcane focus. The +1 magic bonus will only apply to the pact weapon however.
Five levels of Warlock will allow you to select the Thirsting Blade invocation to effectively get Extra Attack, however, it only works with your pact blade, so your non-pact blade weapon must be the "off-hand" weapon.

Damage for the off-hand weapon will be lower as you won't be adding your stat bonus to damage so picking up the two-weapon fighting fighting style would be a good idea, a 1 level dip into Fighter can accomplish this, although you may want a 2 level dip for Action Surge.

Finally, attacking with both weapons uses your bonus action, so you will only be able to attack with one weapon on a turn in which you apply/move Hex or apply Hexblade's Curse. The bonus damage to both of these features will apply to attacks from either weapon so a TWF Hexblade attacking a Hexed and Cursed target can put out quite a bit of damage.

[RSP]

Finally, attacking with both weapons uses your bonus action, so you will only be able to attack with one weapon on a turn in which you apply/move Hex or apply Hexblade's Curse. The bonus damage to both of these features will apply to attacks from either weapon so a TWF Hexblade attacking a Hexed and Cursed target can put out quite a bit of damage.

Second on this and really want to emphasize that one of the main Warlock (and particularly Hexblade) schticks becomes a lot less useful with dual wielding.

Though that extra BA attack seems like it’ll go great with Hex or Hexblade’s Curse, it really eats into the action economy, as you won’t be doing any BA attacks when casting Hex or using HC. I wouldn’t even look at any BA Invocations either (Maddening Hex for example).

Likewise, any round you cast a full-action spell, like Darkness, you won’t get any attacks at all, though at least with Darkness you can HC as a BA and go all in on a “set up” round.

I think it’s very important when building a Warlock to know what you’re going for. I’d eliminate the idea of using Hex if you’re going to be putting resources into getting Dual Wielder. I’d even consider ditching Darkness as a tactic as it would effectively prevent using 3 attacks.

Certainly a dual wielding Hexblade is doable, but go in eyes open with how many potential overlapping BA options there are and work around that.

[Waazraath]

Dual sword wielding is using a bonus action every round, that's the biggest problem imo. Both Hexblade's bonus spells, as Hex, as Hexblade's curse, all use them. I'd minimize bonus action options, so in your spell selection: no bonus action spells. Further, no shield and the warlock chasis are rather squishy, and damage can be rather low only doing 2x 1d6+stat.

Given all this, I think Darkness/Devil's Sight is actually quite good here. It can be a hassle for the rest of the party, but it provides offense (hit more often) as well as defense (get hit less often). Just make sure to discuss tactics with your party. Further, I'd look for spells and invocations that take these weaknesses into account.

For spells, I'd consider Armor of Agatys (always strong), shield and hellish rebuke (also for your action economy, since you lack reactions, BUT you'll need Warcaster), and further use spells for Darkness & out of combat Utility. As for invocations, Cloak of Flies is nice (start up at the start of the dungeon, and keep it active. A nice damage bonus against those around you, and your allies probably won't be too close given your darkness tactic (but again, discuss it with your party members!). Tomb of Levistus is a nice defensive option.

And yes, definitely Fighter 1 to start with, maybe 1 or 2 extra levels. Even champion 3 might be worth it, if you often have advantage and more attacks (just go crit fishing). Add Elvish Accuracy for more fun.

I'd skip dual wielding, to be honest; +1 dam (average) and +1 AC isn't bad, but there are better options I think.

[stoutstien]

Dual sword wielding is using a bonus action every round, that's the biggest problem imo. Both Hexblade's bonus spells, as Hex, as Hexblade's curse, all use them. I'd minimize bonus action options, so in your spell selection: no bonus action spells. Further, no shield and the warlock chasis are rather squishy, and damage can be rather low only doing 2x 1d6+stat.

I'd skip dual wielding, to be honest; +1 dam (average) and +1 AC isn't bad, but there are better options I think.

The dual wielding feat is weaker than the duelist fighting style so there's that.

I would skip the twf style also. The +1AC from defense will go further and then you can treat your bonus action attack as a filler when you aren't using hex/curse/ casting spell.

[Waazraath]

I would skip the twf style also. The +1AC from defense will go further and then you can treat your bonus action attack as a filler when you aren't using hex/curse/ casting spell.

Yeah, true, that's an option as well... in that case though it's less 'duel wielding' and is carrying 2 swords more a style thing, so I don't know if that still fulfills the OP's request.

[stoutstien]

Yeah, true, that's an option as well... in that case though it's less 'duel wielding' and is carrying 2 swords more a style thing, so I don't know if that still fulfills the OP's request.
That's Twf in a nutshell in 5e. All the enhancements for it don't really do much.

[Tectorman]

Since you are currently level 2 your Hex Warrior feature only applies to one of your weapons, meaning that only one weapon can attack using your Charisma, the other must use Strength or Dexterity. As the others before me have said, once you hit level 3 you should take Pact of the Blade so that Hex Warrior applies to both weapons.

Wait, is that how that works? Because when I read it, I see the ability as you initially being able to use Cha for attack and damage on one (1) weapon per long rest. And if you gain Pact of the Blade, you can then have your one (1) weapon per long rest be any weapon you conjure with PotB in place of the nonconjured weapon you were using. And you can conjure and dismiss multiple weapons with PotB, and they will all get Cha to attack and damage, but they're still only one at a time. I'm not seeing where the ability says it increases the total number of weapons you can simultaneously have Cha to attack and damage on.

[bid]

Wait, is that how that works?
Not really.
"this benefit extends to every pact weapon you conjure with that feature" only applies to the shortsword.

You pick up a shortsword and say: this is my hexblade.
You create a handaxe out of thin air.

You attack with both, using Cha for the shortsword and Str for the handaxe.


Note that with thirsting blade, you can only attack twice with the handaxe, since the shortsword is not your pact weapon.

[KyleG]

Thanks for the advice thus far. I'd envisage a setup round and potentially leading off with the single sword before drawing the second so this aspect of dw feat may not even be required and may even make it redundant

The question then becomes when to dip at this point? On a side night the reason I thru rogue as a possibility was due to my squishiness and considered maybe bonus action disengage could be a last minute tactic.

For those of you who suggested skipping twf style, I had considered that as the concept isn't so much about wielding 2 weapons as it is about NOT being s&b or a heavy/pam build. I figured that only left twf but I could be wrong. He is small, nimble and egotistically/suicidally fearless which is already causing him grief but he persists.

[Bloodcloud]

The wayfinders guide to eberron has a double weapon, which would simplify everything for sure...

[CTurbo]

Since nobody else has mentioned it, I think a 3 to 6 level Swords Bard dip would be perfect for this idea. I would go ahead and take all the Bard levels now starting at character level 3. Go Bard 6 if you don't take Blade Pact, but if you do, you could stop at Bard 3, or 4 for ASI, or 5 for 3rd levels spells and short rest Inspiration dice. Going Bard 6 would allow you to go Tome for ultimate utility or Chain for improved familiar. 3-6 levels of Bard adds a LOT to Warlocks, and of course Swords gives you the TWF style.

I would not bother with Duel Wielding unless your Cha is already maxed. Mobile is nice, but not necessary.

[Darc_Vader]

Not really.
"this benefit extends to every pact weapon you conjure with that feature" only applies to the shortsword.

You pick up a shortsword and say: this is my hexblade.
You create a handaxe out of thin air.

You attack with both, using Cha for the shortsword and Str for the handaxe.

I don’t see why you’d use Str for the handaxe here. It is a “pact weapon you [have] conjure[d] with [the pact of the blade] feature”, so it is specifically covered by the text of Hex Warrior. (If anything, I’d say it’s more likely in this scenario that conjuring a pact weapon would cause the original weapon to revert to normal and the pact weapon to use Cha).
However, the use of the word ‘extends’ leads me to read it as ‘in addition to’ rather than ‘instead of’ the one weapon that you choose after a long rest, so it would be one weapon of your choice chosen at the end of a long rest, plus any weapon created via pact of the blade.

[swamp_slug]

Wait, is that how that works? Because when I read it, I see the ability as you initially being able to use Cha for attack and damage on one (1) weapon per long rest. And if you gain Pact of the Blade, you can then have your one (1) weapon per long rest be any weapon you conjure with PotB in place of the nonconjured weapon you were using. And you can conjure and dismiss multiple weapons with PotB, and they will all get Cha to attack and damage, but they're still only one at a time. I'm not seeing where the ability says it increases the total number of weapons you can simultaneously have Cha to attack and damage on.

As Darc_Vader points out, the phrase "extends to" is meant to convey that you gain the benefits with your pact weapon in addition to the normal benefits. This is backed up by tweats from Jeremy Crawford indicating that this was the intention: Sage Advice (https://www.sageadvice.eu/2017/11/16/hex-warrior-can-you-have-both-a-bonded-regular-weapon-and-a-pact-weapon-gaining-the-cha-bonus-benefit-at-the-same-time/). So yes, as long as one of the weapons you wield is your pact blade, you can use your Cha mod for weapon attacks with both weapons wielded.

[bid]

It is a “pact weapon you [have] conjure[d] with [the pact of the blade] feature”, so it is specifically covered by the text of Hex Warrior.
Right, I guess I misread that part. Thanks for the fix.

[SuperbDolphin]

Although not entirely practical, if your DM allows it, a dip 2 levels into blood hunter could make for a cool build. Taking the two-weapon fighting style, and rite damage coupled with the blood curse of the marked on both weapons makes for a hefty amount of damage and a cool character.

[KyleG]

Blood hunter is not an option.

[SuperbDolphin]

Blood hunter is not an option.
That's a shame, I might ask my DM if I could take this build for the next campaign we play.

[Rukelnikov]

If you are gonna dip, I'd second CTurbo's suggestion of going Swords Bard.

There are many benefits for this, mainly, low lvl slots for Shield, and what are basically maneuvers. And it also gives you TWF style.

I'd personally go to Lock 5 to get Warcaster at 4 since you basically can't cast otherwise, and 1 more level for extra attack. If you seriously plan on only casting Darkness at the beginning of every fight, and nothing else, you can skip Warcaster, but consider that being a globe of darkness in melee will sometimes hinder your own party more than your enemies.

[Quoz]

If Eberon material is allowed, the double scimitar could be a good option for you. It already has two weapon fighting style baked in, and its 2d4 damage is very nice with great weapon style.

As a hexblade you don't need the Revenant Blade feat to use it well, but it adds most of the same benefits as Two Weapon Fighting. If you can get some say in magic items, a Flame Tounge version offers some really impressive damage output, a great fit for a hexblade or champion with Elven Accuracy crit fishing.

[Warlush]

You should offer to wash your DM's car all summer if he gives you two pact weapons.

[SuperbDolphin]

You should offer to wash your DM's car all summer if he gives you two pact weapons.

This is genius!

[KyleG]

Double Scimitar looks cool but who knows when/if ill get it. In the meantime i think ill go Hexblade 4/5 then maybe do the dip. Fighter seems most appropriate given his background as a soldier.

[MThurston]

Does the agility to allow a weapon do cha to hit and damage allow you to do cha damage in the off hand? If so then you do not need to dip into fighter.

[MThurston]

Hex Warrior

When you attack with that weapon, you can use your Charisma modifier, instead of Strength or Dexterity, for the attack and damage rolls.

This does not say in your main or off hand. So at level 3 you could have two blades and both do cha damage.

So you do not need to take the Fighting Style.

[Tectorman]

Hex Warrior

When you attack with that weapon, you can use your Charisma modifier, instead of Strength or Dexterity, for the attack and damage rolls.

This does not say in your main or off hand. So at level 3 you could have two blades and both do cha damage.

So you do not need to take the Fighting Style.

You use Cha instead of Str or Dex for attack and damage rolls. You're using Cha "in the stead of" Str or Dex, i.e., "in the place of", which means Str or Dex has to be there first, and without the TWF Fighting Style, your off-hand is only getting an ability mod to attack. You'd still be able to get Cha instead of Str or Dex for your off-hand attack rolls, but you need the Fighting Style for damage.

[MThurston]

You use Cha instead of Str or Dex for attack and damage rolls. You're using Cha "in the stead of" Str or Dex, i.e., "in the place of", which means Str or Dex has to be there first, and without the TWF Fighting Style, your off-hand is only getting an ability mod to attack. You'd still be able to get Cha instead of Str or Dex for your off-hand attack rolls, but you need the Fighting Style for damage.

"When you attack with a weapon."

That is the key. It doesn't say when you attack with your main weapon. It says weapon. So if you have two of them they both do Cha Mod damage.

Just using RAW.

[Tectorman]

"When you attack with a weapon."

That is the key. It doesn't say when you attack with your main weapon. It says weapon. So if you have two of them they both do Cha Mod damage.

Just using RAW.

But that's not the entire quote. You don't just apply Cha willy-nilly, you apply it in all circumstances where Str or Dex get to apply and you don't get to apply it where Str or Dex don't get to apply. And without the TWF Fighting Style, Str/Dex don't get to apply to an off-hand damage roll. Cha applying INSTEAD of Str/Dex just replaces one inapplicable stat mod with another stat mod, still inapplicable (unless TWF changes that condition).

RAW uses the word "instead"; that word has meaning and it is there for a purpose.

[Man_Over_Game]

But that's not the entire quote. You don't just apply Cha willy-nilly, you apply it in all circumstances where Str or Dex get to apply and you don't get to apply it where Str or Dex don't get to apply. And without the TWF Fighting Style, Str/Dex don't get to apply to an off-hand damage roll. Cha applying INSTEAD of Str/Dex just replaces one inapplicable stat mod with another stat mod, still inapplicable (unless TWF changes that condition).

RAW uses the word "instead"; that word has meaning and it is there for a purpose.

Agreed. Otherwise, you could cast Shillelagh on a single club and wield two clubs with Wisdom, and that's not how Shillelagh works.

Although you can still dual wield by grabbing Pact of the Blade. Hex Warrior says it applies to all of your pact weapons, but it doesn't say that your Pact Weapons automatically get this feature. That is, you can charge a weapon to use Charisma, AND you can use a Pact Weapon (which now uses Charisma). So to be a Charisma Dual Wield Warlock, you have to be at least a level 3 Warlock.

[MThurston]

Agreed. Otherwise, you could cast Shillelagh on a single club and wield two clubs with Wisdom, and that's not how Shillelagh works.

Although you can still dual wield by grabbing Pact of the Blade. Hex Warrior says it applies to all of your pact weapons, but it doesn't say that your Pact Weapons automatically get this feature. That is, you can charge a weapon to use Charisma, AND you can use a Pact Weapon (which now uses Charisma). So to be a Charisma Dual Wield Warlock, you have to be at least a level 3 Warlock.

Correct level 3 Hexblade. But the wording is very clear. When you attack with a weapon.

[Darc_Vader]

"When you attack with a weapon."

That is the key. It doesn't say when you attack with your main weapon. It says weapon. So if you have two of them they both do Cha Mod damage.

Just using RAW.

It doesn't say main weapon because there is no such thing as a 'main weapon'. If you have a weapon in each hand, you can choose to attack with either and get your ability mod to damage, in fact you can get mod to damage on both in one turn even without the fighting style if you have extra attack. It's only in the specific case of attacking with a bonus action that you don't, and the text of Hex Warrior only adds Charisma to the possible ability modifiers mentioned the Damage Rolls section "When attacking with a weapon, you add your ability modifier—the same modifier used for the attack roll— to the damage." there is nothing in the text that implies it would override the Two-Weapon Fighting rules "You don’t add your ability modifier to the damage of the bonus attack, unless that modifier is negative."

edit: also, if just saying weapon was enough to override the twf rules, they wouldn't exist, since the normal attacking rules use the exact same language (bolded above)

[KyleG]

Whilst I think the intent of hex warrior is replace dex with a cha modifier are you saying pact of the blade the twf rule re modifiers?

Lv1 and 2 = 1d6+mod, 1d6
a level in fighter = 1d6+mod, 1d6+mod

Are there those of you that seem to think potb replaces the need to get a fighter level to get the additional modifier bonus?

[bid]

Are there those of you that seem to think potb replaces the need to get a fighter level to get the additional modifier bonus?
Replace is not add. None have that fact-free fantasy.

[KyleG]

Thank goodness. Else is have been missing some damage as I had interpreted it as having no mod unless I grab the level if fighter. Im not sure why dual wielding without the fighting style is so welcomed by many. Its only a loss of a couple of points of damage.

[Darc_Vader]

Thank goodness. Else is have been missing some damage as I had interpreted it as having no mod unless I grab the level if fighter. Im not sure why dual wielding without the fighting style is so welcomed by many. Its only a loss of a couple of points of damage.

By my understanding, it’s not that losing the couple points is a big issue. The problem is that even with mod to damage on the bonus attack twf falls behind damage wise to GWF, and isn’t significantly ahead of dueling once extra attack comes online. (And it’s the only fighting style that becomes proportionally worse at the same time). It doesn’t help that PAM exists and does essentially the same thing but better.

[MThurston]

Thank goodness. Else is have been missing some damage as I had interpreted it as having no mod unless I grab the level if fighter. Im not sure why dual wielding without the fighting style is so welcomed by many. Its only a loss of a couple of points of damage.

I don't see it that way. You don't need a fighting style for it. When you attack with a weapon that you have used this ability with. You use your Cha for to hit and damage.

You can do this with 2 weapons. Just another cool Hexblade bonus.

[MThurston]

By my understanding, it’s not that losing the couple points is a big issue. The problem is that even with mod to damage on the bonus attack twf falls behind damage wise to GWF, and isn’t significantly ahead of dueling once extra attack comes online. (And it’s the only fighting style that becomes proportionally worse at the same time). It doesn’t help that PAM exists and does essentially the same thing but better.

Of course this is for power gamers and not roleplayers.

Some of us like playing a game for fun and not for power gaming it to death.

[Tectorman]

I don't see it that way. You don't need a fighting style for it. When you attack with a weapon that you have used this ability with. You use your Cha for to hit and damage.

You can do this with 2 weapons. Just another cool Hexblade bonus.

"Instead." That word is there for a reason. Hex Warrior lets you use Cha with a weapon whenever you would normally get to use Str or Dex; it doesn't let you manufacture a stat applying wholecloth in a circumstance where no stat (Str, Dex, Cha, Wis, any of them) normally gets to apply.

Two Weapon Fighting says that stat mods to damage rolls for off-hand weapon attacks don't happen. Ergo, no Str or Dex to damage for an off-hand weapon attack. Ergo, there is nothing there for Cha to be used "instead" of, which is all that Hex Warrior does. The RAW is very clear on that.

I mean, let's keep the language and change the circumstances. As an example, let's say I'm cooking breakfast and I'm in front of the stove. I have to step away for a minute and I ask you to keep an eye on breakfast "instead" of me. Hopefully, you are now in front of the stove "in the place of" me, rather than outside washing a car, which is not at all "in the place of" me.

[MThurston]

"Instead." That word is there for a reason. Hex Warrior lets you use Cha with a weapon whenever you would normally get to use Str or Dex; it doesn't let you manufacture a stat applying wholecloth in a circumstance where no stat (Str, Dex, Cha, Wis, any of them) normally gets to apply.

Two Weapon Fighting says that stat mods to damage rolls for off-hand weapon attacks don't happen. Ergo, no Str or Dex to damage for an off-hand weapon attack. Ergo, there is nothing there for Cha to be used "instead" of, which is all that Hex Warrior does. The RAW is very clear on that.

I mean, let's keep the language and change the circumstances. As an example, let's say I'm cooking breakfast and I'm in front of the stove. I have to step away for a minute and I ask you to keep an eye on breakfast "instead" of me. Hopefully, you are now in front of the stove "in the place of" me, rather than outside washing a car, which is not at all "in the place of" me.

"When using this weapon"

You can't just pick up a dagger and get the bonus action damage. You have to use the weapon you used HexWarrior on.

Very specific use.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

"When using this weapon"

You can't just pick up a dagger and get the bonus action damage. You have to use the weapon you used HexWarrior on.

Very specific use.

Right - but you also have to use the Hex Warrior weapon in a circumstance that would allow you to add your Str or Dex mod. An unmodified bonus action attack isn't one of those circumstances.

[MThurston]

Right - but you also have to use the Hex Warrior weapon in a circumstance that would allow you to add your Str or Dex mod. An unmodified bonus action attack isn't one of those circumstances.

It doesn't say that. It says "When using this weapon".

So that means anytime you are using the weapon.

Anytime means attack one, attack two, bonus action, reaction.

[RipTide]

... Are you me? Seriously my actual name is Kyle and my last initial is G. My current character is a Hexblade that uses duel wielding and his shtick out of combat was going to be Mask of Many Faces until I saw Changeling... I think you might be me.

Anyway the way I'm going about it is Hexblade Pact of the Blade 3, College of Swords Bard x. That way I get the two weapon fighting style from College of Swords and using Pact of the Blade I can get Cha for attack on both weapons. On top of that bard gives me extra spell slots to use with shield then combined with defensive flourish I'm practically untouchable. So far its a really fun build and even in combat I never feel like I'm falling behind in damage, and out of combat I have endless amounts of skills and tools to have fun with.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

It doesn't say that. It says "When using this weapon".

So that means anytime you are using the weapon.

Anytime means attack one, attack two, bonus action, reaction.

No, it doesn't. It allows you to replace an ability modifier with a different modifier. It does not allow you to add a modifier where none was applicable in the first place. "(Y)ou can use your Charisma modifier, instead of Strength or Dexterity" does not mean "you can use your Charisma modifier in all circumstances." This is very clear, and your insistence that it's not is confusing to me. Yesterday, you asked:


Does the agility to allow a weapon do cha to hit and damage allow you to do cha damage in the off hand?

so I'm a bit unsure where your ironclad conviction suddenly comes from.

As for what 'anytime' means, it doesn't matter. That word does not appear in the Hex Warrior class feature.

[Ruebin Rybnik]

It doesn't say that. It says "When using this weapon".

So that means anytime you are using the weapon.

Anytime means attack one, attack two, bonus action, reaction.

You're right you get to use CHA for Att and Dmg roll with that weapon. However unless you have the fighting style you dont add your ability modifier to the dmg roll of the bonus att irregardless of what stat you used for the att roll.

[Yunru]

I'm going to support those saying either a double weapon, or convincing your DM to let you have two Pact Weapons, simple because of how most of your class features only apply to the Pact Weapon.

EDIT: Guys, just ignore MThurston and move on, he's an established troll at this point, just look at his response to any dragonborn thread.

[swamp_slug]

It doesn't say that. It says "When using this weapon".

So that means anytime you are using the weapon.

Anytime means attack one, attack two, bonus action, reaction.

You are still subject to the more specific rules of two-weapon fighting, otherwise just attacking with a Finesse weapon using Dexterity would allow you to apply your Dex modifier to damage.

I'll quote the relevant sections below:


When making an attack with a finesse weapon, you use your choice of your Strength or Dexterity modifier for the attack and damage rolls. You must use the same modifier for both rolls.



Whenever you finish a long rest, you can touch one weapon that you are proficient with and that lacks the two-handed property. When you attack with that weapon, you can use your Charisma modifier, instead of Strength or Dexterity, for the attack and damage rolls. This benefit lasts until you finish a long rest. If you later gain the Pact of the Blade feature, this benefit extends to every pact weapon you conjure with that feature, no matter the weapon’s type.



When you take the Attack action and attack with a light melee weapon that you're holding in one hand, you can use a bonus action to attack with a different light melee weapon that you're holding in the other hand. You don't add your ability modifier to the damage of the bonus attack, unless that modifier is negative.

If either weapon has the thrown property, you can throw the weapon, instead of making a melee attack with it.


In D&D specific beats general.

General: When making an attack with a melee weapon you apply your Strength modifier to attack and damage rolls
Specific 1: If the weapon has the Finesse property you can use your Dexterity modifier instead of Strength
Specific 2: If you are a Hexblade you can use your Charisma modifier instead of Strength (or Dexterity for Finesse weapons).
Specific 3: If you are taking the Attack action and have a Light melee weapon in each hand you may use a Bonus Action to make one additional attack but do not add your ability modifier to damage unless it is negative.

The Hex Warrior feature only overrules the general rule of melee weapon attacks use Strength by providing the ability to use a different ability score. The Two-weapon Fighting rules are more specific than Hex Warrior because they apply restrictions to a conditional type of attack and therefore they overrule the more general Hex Warrior rules.

Also note the section I have highlighted from the Two-weapon fighting rules, the phrase "ability modifier" is used rather than referring to a specific ability. Basically, no matter which ability modifier you use to make your attacks, if the attack is the Bonus Action attack granted by the TWF rules you don't add your ability modifier to the damage roll.

[KyleG]

... Are you me? Seriously my actual name is Kyle and my last initial is G. My current character is a Hexblade that uses duel wielding and his shtick out of combat was going to be Mask of Many Faces until I saw Changeling... I think you might be me.

Anyway the way I'm going about it is Hexblade Pact of the Blade 3, College of Swords Bard x. That way I get the two weapon fighting style from College of Swords and using Pact of the Blade I can get Cha for attack on both weapons. On top of that bard gives me extra spell slots to use with shield then combined with defensive flourish I'm practically untouchable. So far its a really fun build and even in combat I never feel like I'm falling behind in damage, and out of combat I have endless amounts of skills and tools to have fun with.

Lol. No I believe im me and the character is certainly not bard like. Im considering the multi as rogue, I miss out on getting the fighting style but the character feels much more like a skirmisher so could work.
Either way the question still remains, WHEN to multi given im lvl2, and how many assuming 20lvls.

[Darc_Vader]

Lol. No I believe im me and the character is certainly not bard like. Im considering the multi as rogue, I miss out on getting the fighting style but the character feels much more like a skirmisher so could work.
Either way the question still remains, WHEN to multi given im lvl2, and how many assuming 20lvls.
You should probably wait until at least level 5 to multiclass, since Thirsting Blade is important for a melee warlock not using the SCAG cantrips. Overall I’d say
W(5) - F(2) - R(3)(Swashbuckler pairs nicely with ba attack) and from there decide if you want to aim for Lifedrinker at W(12) or Uncanny Dodge and Evasion. Ending up with either W(11)/F(2)/R(7) if you value Evasion, W(13)/F(2)/R(5) which nets you the 7th level Arcanum, Lifedrinker, and an ASI, or even just W13/R(7) which gets all of the above at the cost of TWF and Action Surge.

[Whit]

https://mobile.twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/930235396792786944

Crawford states
The Hex Warrior feature is intentionally worded to extend its benefit to two potential weapons: the weapon you touch and a pact weapon you conjure. #DnD

[MThurston]

https://mobile.twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/930235396792786944

Crawford states
The Hex Warrior feature is intentionally worded to extend its benefit to two potential weapons: the weapon you touch and a pact weapon you conjure. #DnD

100% correct and it says it in the rules. The weapon you touch and any pact weapon that you conjure.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

https://mobile.twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/930235396792786944

Crawford states
The Hex Warrior feature is intentionally worded to extend its benefit to two potential weapons: the weapon you touch and a pact weapon you conjure. #DnD

No one has ever said that it can't affect two weapons at once. Hex Warrior by itself lets you attack with one weapon with Cha to attack and Cha to damage, and attack with the other weapon with Cha to attack. The second weapon does not get an ability modifier to damage unless the character has an ability that explicitly overwrites the default Two Weapon Fighting rules.

[Tectorman]

No one has ever said that it can't affect two weapons at once. Hex Warrior by itself lets you attack with one weapon with Cha to attack and Cha to damage, and attack with the other weapon with Cha to attack. The second weapon does not get an ability modifier to damage unless the character has an ability that explicitly overwrites the default Two Weapon Fighting rules.

To be fair, I asked whether it worked that way and was directed to the aforementioned Twitter post that directly answers that question.

As far as what rolls Hex Warrior allows to run off of Cha, it's no different than Finesse.

Finesse lets you "use your choice of your Strength or Dexterity modifier for the attack and damage rolls". It goes on to specify that you "must use the same modifier for both rolls".

Meanwhile, Hex Warrior says that when you attack with a weapon you've selected for your Hex Warrior ability, you can "use your Charisma modifier, instead of Stength or Dexterity, for the attack and damage rolls".

So, of note, Finesse requires "both rolls" to use the same modifier, and this specification does not exist in the Hex Warrior ability. Ergo, if anything is going to ignore the "no stat mod to off-hand damage rolls without TWF Fighting Style" rule, it would be Finesse long before Hex Warrior. Ergo, this "issue" has existed since the PHB was printed, before Xanathar's was ever written.

So, what happens if you make an off-hand attack with a Finesse weapon without the TWF Fighting Style? Does the fact that Finesse requires you to use the same stat mod for both rolls override the "no stat mod to off-hand damage rule"?

No. Obviously not. The entry for TWF in the Combat chapter makes that very clear. "You don't add your ability modifier to the damage of the bonus attack, unless that modifier is negative." It doesn't say "you don't add your Str mod". It doesn't say "you don't add your Str or Dex mod". It says "you don't add your ability mod". Any ability mod. Not Str. Not Dex. Not Cha. If some future ability in some future publication lets you sub in your Con mod to damage rolls, then you won't be able to add it to your off-hand damage rolls, either (without TWF or some other ability that explicitly overrides how TWF normally works).

Finesse is not such a feature. Hex Warrior is not such a feature. The RAW are very clear on that.

[KyleG]

Since nobody else has mentioned it, I think a 3 to 6 level Swords Bard dip would be perfect for this idea. I would go ahead and take all the Bard levels now starting at character level 3. Go Bard 6 if you don't take Blade Pact, but if you do, you could stop at Bard 3, or 4 for ASI, or 5 for 3rd levels spells and short rest Inspiration dice. Going Bard 6 would allow you to go Tome for ultimate utility or Chain for improved familiar. 3-6 levels of Bard adds a LOT to Warlocks, and of course Swords gives you the TWF style.

I would not bother with Duel Wielding unless your Cha is already maxed. Mobile is nice, but not necessary.

Ive learnt a lot in the month or so since here and now at level 4 im thinking about the future. Reflavouring the context of going into Bard as just levels of warlock, with some inspiring words for his team mates (haven't worked out song of rest yet) I intend to take 3 levels of Bard (swords) to get the best of both worlds, spell slots AND fighting style. Clearly it makes sense to get warlock 5 and the hexblades 6th level has real appeal so maybe ill take the levels after that. Then again shadows of moil comes up next then the ASI. So maybe after 9? Either way its another level or so before I get there but it was a good suggestion of the swords bard now that ive considered multiclass levels not as there base class but as a reflavoured for my core class.

[Dork_Forge]

Two weapon fighting can be incredibly fun, I hope you enjoy it! Mechanically I'd personally skip the Darkness/Devil's Sight combo, it screws over your party and require an action and slot to set up. I'd recommend going with Fiendish Vigor, going into every combat with 8 temp hp really negates any squishiness of the build. Other invocations to keep in mind are improved pact weapon (give yourself a +1 weapon, expand your pact weapon choices and use your weapon as a focus, hand when both hands are full!) and Eldritch Smite (TWF gives you more chances to hit and thus more chances to trigger ES). Two Weapon Fighting style is imo pretty essential to keep up your damage and Dual Wielder opens up bigger damage dies and a nice AC boost (worth it especially since you're SAD).

Dip wise Fighter makes sense and is a great dip, if you go as deep as 3 Battle Master makes the most sense (I'd say samurai but your BA is tied up enough already), if you can go 3/4 into it then Sword Bard is a great GISH option to boost your damage, survivability and casting overall.