Spell Choice

[Galithar]

So, I'm starting a new campaign soon at level 5. My character will be starting GOO tomelock 4/Divine Soul 1 and wanted opinions on my spell choice. The class and levels are locked in.


Cantrips

Eldritch Blast (Homebrewed into a melee range cantrip)
Ray of Frost
Frostbite
Chill Touch
Toll the Dead
Produce Flame
Minor Illusion
Shape Water
Mold Earth
Control Flames


Level One

Shield
Cure Wounds
Bless
Dissonant Whispers
Hellish Rebuke


Level Two

Spider Climb
Mirror Image
Shatter


Now I feel a little heavy in combat cantrips, but they're all taken for their rider effects. Disadvantage on weapon attacks, reduced movement speed, preventing regeneration/healing. Then a high damage melee and high damage ranged option. I tried to split them between attack rolls and saves. I've considered dropping frostbite for guidance.

First levels I plan to use for tossing bless up for most encounters. I'll be in a party of three so I can boost is all. +6 con save or more (depending on stat rolls) means losing concentration won't be common. Shield will be for emergencies only as I'll let most attacks just hit me and then throw Hellish Rebuke back at them.

Second levels I figure will normally be for my mirror image in fights that look tough going in. Shatter if there's a big group. I'll drop shatter later for sure. Cure Wounds if we get into trouble, but mostly to burn my Warlock slots before a short rest if I have any left.

Any good picks I'm missing? Having 3 spell lists to pull from is a LOT of first level spells to go through. And ten cantrips seems like a hell of a lot, but I still find myself wanting more. Lol

Edit: Invocations are Mask of Many Faces and Agonizing Blast. Picking up Misty Images with my level 5 pick for at-will silent image. My level 4 ASI went to Actor (also set on stone)

[Digimike]

Levitate fills a similar role to Spider Climb, but can also be used as a lockdown spell. I'd swap those.

I'd take healing word over cure wounds. It heals less but it's a BA. You didn't take hex?

Create Bonfire, Guidance, and prestidigitation are too good of cantrips for me to pass up.

[Dungeon-noob]

Ray of frost, frostbite AND chill touch might be a bit much cold damage cantrips. Drop produce flame for light, produce flame has too short a range and too bad damage to be an effective combat cantrip. And i'd not sure how good Hellish rebuke is on a build with so few spell slots available at any point in time, especially since you already have a reaction spell in Shield.

[Keravath]

I'm not sure what your homebrew change to eldritch blast is. If eldritch blast is now a 5' range only then the damage capabilities of the warlock are greatly reduced without having the spell slot complement of a full caster to compensate. In addition, as a GOO warlock/sorcerer your AC and hit points will be insufficient to regularly participate in melee combat so using eldritch blast won't happen. You would be better off with shocking grasp to eliminate the target's reaction so you can move away without taking an op attack otherwise you are probably better off using your action to disengage rather than trying to cast eldritch blast at melee range and then subsequently dying to the creatures multiattack on the following turn.

You also haven't mentioned invocation choice which also might be relevant. (though presumably one is the Ancient secrets tome invocation which nets you two first level ritual spells?)

As for cantrips, guidance is probably one of the most universally useful depending on DM.

The riders on the various cantrips can be cool but I would say you have too many since they are only situationally useful. Reducing movement by 10' is good if they are approaching and doesn't help much if they have ranged attacks or are already in melee. Chill touch preventing healing is great against regenerating creatures but doesn't do much otherwise. However, since regenerating creatures can be quite difficult to deal with I would keep it.

You also have Toll the dead which is actually a melee or ranged cantrip since it is based on a saving throw and not attack roll so it is unaffected by adjacent opponents.

As another poster suggested, healing word is a better choice than cure wounds since it is a 60' range bonus action so you don't have run up adjacent to a downed team mate (possibly taking op attacks) and then have to use your action to get them back on their feet.

Your plan to just take the hits and use hellish rebuke quickly runs out of steam:
1) You may occasionally fail a concentration save though with bless up and a +5 or +6 with a 14 or 16 constitution and proficiency it won't happen that often.
2) You will die sometimes. Your 5th level character (with a 14 con) would have 36 hit points. Your AC is relatively low and things will hit you a lot. You also have a limited number of spell slots (2 1st and 2 2nd) so if you are casting hellish rebuke .. you won't have the spell slots left for other spells. There is also some competition for your spells in combat. You plan to open with bless and use mirror image in a harder fight but this means that the first two rounds of combat, you won't be doing any damage. With the low AC and low hit points you will probably need to plan to stay out of melee range most of the time if at all possible so planning to "take the hits" is probably not a great strategy.
3) darkness + devils sight might be an option worth considering. Darkness is a very effective defence against gaze attacks from basilisks/medusa/vampire etc plus if you can see through it and the opponents can't then you can get advantage on your attacks while they have disadvantage on theirs. It is probably also one of the few ways to make a melee use of eldritch blast feasible for such a character since if the target can't see you they also don't get any op attacks.

Spider climb is a situational spell and with your limited spell slots I am not sure how useful it would be for you. Other options would be Darkness (with devils sight), Hold person and Misty Step (extremely useful to get your character out of dangerous situations like being grappled/restrained or even as an alternative to using disengage to escape melee.

If you won't be using eldritch blast regularly then hex loses a lot of its value. Keep in mind that eldritch blast + agonizing blast + hex was designed as part of the warlock class balance. Since this has been house ruled away, the class is much much weaker than planned.

[Fryy]

I'm not sure what your homebrew change to eldritch blast is. If eldritch blast is now a 5' range only then the damage capabilities of the warlock are greatly reduced without having the spell slot complement of a full caster to compensate. In addition, as a GOO warlock/sorcerer your AC and hit points will be insufficient to regularly participate in melee combat so using eldritch blast won't happen. You would be better off with shocking grasp to eliminate the target's reaction so you can move away without taking an op attack otherwise you are probably better off using your action to disengage rather than trying to cast eldritch blast at melee range and then subsequently dying to the creatures multiattack on the following turn....

....If you won't be using eldritch blast regularly then hex loses a lot of its value. Keep in mind that eldritch blast + agonizing blast + hex was designed as part of the warlock class balance. Since this has been house ruled away, the class is much much weaker than planned.

Changing Eldritch Blast to a melee cantrip is a severe homebrew change. I wonder how much it has been 'play-tested' at your table. You might find it a rather frustrating experiment. What is your concept for this character?

You will want better AC than Mage Armor to survive in melee. With a 3 man party, you probably can't avoid melee completely. So, I'd recommend either a one level dip in Cleric or just choose Hexblade instead.

Attack Cantrips: Ranged: either Firebolt or Ray of Frost, but remember that Firebolt is range 120' and Ray of Frost is only 60'. It can really matter on occasion. Melee: Toll the Dead

Support Cantrips: Guidance.

Level One Warlock spells: Armor of Agathys is nice for added survivability and scales when upcast. And, it's one hour duration with no concentration. But Aid (level 2 from Divine Soul) is better for your party.

Healing Word: Here's one more vote for Healing Word over Cure Wounds.

Spider Climb: I think its better than Levitate because its hour duration. Its a good dungeon crawl spell. Replace with Fly when you have 3rd level spells.

[JackPhoenix]

Ray of frost, frostbite AND chill touch might be a bit much cold damage cantrips. Drop produce flame for light, produce flame has too short a range and too bad damage to be an effective combat cantrip. And i'd not sure how good Hellish rebuke is on a build with so few spell slots available at any point in time, especially since you already have a reaction spell in Shield.

Chill Touch is not cold damage cantrip.

[sophontteks]

Eldritch Blast (Homebrewed into a melee range cantrip)

RIP Warlock. Seriously, you may want to consider asking the DM to play something else. This will cripple your character. What is the logic behind this houserule?

[Galithar]

First and foremost I want to thank everyone who responded with suggestions. If I seem defensive or reluctant to make changes, it's not because your idea is bad. It's most likely that it's good, but I thought it through and decided to roll with the consequences of going suboptimal.


RIP Warlock. Seriously, you may want to consider asking the DM to play something else. This will cripple your character. What is the logic behind this houserule?

This is a Homebrew from myself. It isn't all Warlocks, just mine specifically. And it doesn't cripple the concept as I'm a Warforged that will have the highest AC in the party. When I'm higher level it will allow me to sustain (2d10+8)+(2d8+4)+4d8 (Melee range Eldritch Blast + Spiritual Weapon cast at level 3 + Spirit Guardians) and yes, I could do this without hindering myself to melee range, but I'm not too concerned as this fits the character concept. I understand it's not optimal, but it is intentional and I'm okay with the slight reduction in power. But with a 3 man group it's honestly going to be harder to stay at range then not, so I'm building around punishing them for being close not keeping them away.

My AC will start at a minimum of 16, which isn't amazing, but isn't terrible. It meets the 10+2*Prof rule, although barely. Which means I'll get hit 40-50% of the time. But at level 9 (I know it's a ways off) I'll get AC 21. Moderately Armored Feat will allow me to pick up a shield and change my base AC calculation to 13+Dex(Max 2)+Proficiency+Shield bonus
[DM has already stated that if I have a focus in my hand I can cast spells with somatic components even if they don't have a material component, we are aware it 'weakens' warcaster but feel that is by far the weakest thing Warcaster does to begin with]

As for healing word/cure wounds my job is to fill in the 'healer' role, not the combat medic. I would take the Healer feat instead, but I honestly don't have room for the feat in my build concept. The Bard will have have healing word, my healing is for actually getting health back right before a short rest to save on hit die and then get my slots back, as I expect the DM to run longer days with more opportunities for short rests. Possibly when gritty realism due to the social nature of the game. Additionally as my emergency backup I plan on having my Familiar be close but hidden (possibly on my person if allowed) if someone goes down I can have the familiar dash over (60ft fly speed dash for 120 and flyby) and then administer my cure wounds from range. My Familiar will be non-combatant for the most part, but utilizing flyby to give advantage at critical moments.

I also understand I don't have a lot of slots to start. I will be going one level into Warlock to pick up third level slots and then start leveling in Sorcerer. And yes, I again realize this isn't the optimal powerbuilt Sorlock. That's not what I am going for. My schtick is to be able to pump out low to mid level spells all day in combat and be godly in social situations (doesn't really happen until level 8 when I finally get subtle suggestion, but high Cha and Actor/Mask of Many faces allow me to become anyone I want) At the start I don't do any of this incredibly well. And I'm okay with that. I'll get more low level spell slots that are the true intended for for hellish Rebuke and shield later.

I didn't take Hex because I don't plan on using it ever. It's not worth one of my spells known. I'm a support character. I will be concentrating on bless, Spirit Guardians, or Twinned Haste. I am not the damage dealer of the group. That's what the Barbarian is for. Bless to make him hit, or Haste for an extra GWM swing is better then adding 1 or 2d6 from me.
And yes I do realize that the Bard is naturally a support character, but I had this character 80% created before he said he was playing a Bard so we're rolling with it.

I like the idea of using Levitate over Spider Climb, but my concern is the duration and speed so in practice it won't work for it's intent of keeping me and the Bard with our Simic Hybrid climbing speed Barbarian. With Spider Climb I can (if needed) dash and travel 60 feet directly up a wall. Levitate would get me only 20 feet.

I was a little concerned with the repetition of damaging cantrips. But I figured their riders make them situationally useful. And why not have the perfect cantrip for the situation when you have so many?

As for prestidigitation there is very little it can do that I can't replicate better else where.

* You create an instantaneous harmless sensory effect such as a shower of sparks a puff of wind faint musical notes or an odd odor. I can recreate this with Silent Image, Minor Illusion for the most part. There are some things they can't replicate perfectly, but close enough for any practical application that I can think of.

* You instantaneously light or snuff out a candle a torch or a small campfire. Produce Flame, Control Flame already cover this, but can do larger fires.

* You create a nonmagical trinket or an illusory image that can fit in your hand and that lasts until the end of your next turn. Again minor illusion, silent image can do this as well. Sure, no physical nonmagical trinket, but if it's only lasting for one round an illusion of one is just as good.

And I can't come up with a practical use for heating, cooling, or changing the flavor of food, that can't be easily accomplished through mundane means :P


Spider Climb will get replaced with Fly eventually But my third level spells known are going to have a lot of competition so it may not happen immediately, but I definitely agree. It's very niche that 30 foot climbing for an hour is better then 60 foot flying for 10 minutes. Spider Climb is there because I didn't think Suggestion was worth it without subtle and I know my Barbarian buddy well have a natural climbing speed and I want to keep up.

Hexblade doesn't give me anything I want other then medium armor, and I lose things I do want. Hexblade would let me attack with Cha... So does my Eldritch Blast 'nerf'. GOO gives me dissonant whisper (used to cause AoO for my GWM barbarian buddy) and a 30 foot telepathy which will be invaluable in the social aspect (roughly 50-60% of our game will be social). I resigned to taking Moderately Armored at level 9 (Sorcerer 4) I wanted to start with it, but Actor was more important to my RP concept so I'm sucking it up for the first 4 levels of the campaign... (Which is expected to go to 15+)

Toll the Dead is my main ranged damage cantrip at 2d12 on a Wisdom save I'm okay with it. I didn't take Firebolt because it felt redundant with the other cantrips, though I do recognize now that it has superior range... I might have to consider that as I currently have no way to fight outside 60 feet. I'm unsure how often combat will start at that range, and will likely be using turn one to cast bless or another buff anyways.

Aid is on my list, but starting with so few Sorcerer levels means I have to wait. Armor of Agathys might be worth picking up and then dropping later. What would you recommend I drop for it?

Darkness-Devil's Sight combo would too often have me in my allies way. The Bard couldn't cast anything requiring sight and the Barbarian can't get advantage for Reckless Attacking GWM. I'd help myself but neuter my party. I looked at it and decided it wouldn't help.

I'm not concerned about dropping. It may happen, but with a Bard there to throw a Healing Word to get me back up, I'm confident enough to stand next to the Barbarian and get him up if he drops. Additionally as I stated earlier I'll have the highest AC of the group (tied at start but mine will make a huge jump at level 9 and stay above the party, barring major magic items, for the rest of the campaign)

Failing a Concentration check will require me to roll a 1 on either the d20 or the d4 from bless and a 2 or less on the other. I'm not a math genius, but that's a 5% fail rate? So yes, I may fail one but unless I'm taking massive damage in the realm of killing me in 1-2 rounds it's not likely. Plus when I hit level 9 it becomes like a 1.25% fail rate requiring a 1 on both die? Granted I won't likely have bless up all the time at higher levels. Also I have the Divine Soul level 1 feature to add +2d4 to a saving throw I've failed if I needed to make that clutch concentration check.

Also, even though I did actually list my Invocations, I had completely forgotten to take the Invocations for my rituals for being a tomelock. I'll have to take that one and pick Agonizing back up so level 6 (Warlock 5). I was initially going to be a chainlock, but the backstory my DM and I came up with Tome made more sense thematically. (I'll eventually be posting back story if anyone is interested)
Obviously I add find familiar. What's a good choice for my second ritual? Detect Magic, Identify, and Find Familiar are my 3 contenders at the moment. I might be able to use some of my starting wealth to get more rituals added, so what level 1&2 rituals would be good to do this for if allowed?

Now again, this is a freaking lot, but I tried to respond to every idea as I genuinely appreciate you taking the time to respond and give me ideas, even if I end up not using it. I had to think of WHY I didn't want to do that and it helps give me a better idea of who my character is and what they'll be capable of.