Vestiges in Eberron

[adso]

I'm considering making a Pathfinder port of the Binder class from 3.5, and while considering some changes to update it for the new system I'm taking a critical look at the vestiges as well. I only ever play in Eberron and I figured that this would be a good opportunity to tie the vestiges into the existing cosmology of the world. I think that referencing existing Eberron concepts would be both nice from a lore perspective and also tie the binding system into existing concepts that my players know, making it feel less "tacked on". For example, I've done similar things for incarnum by totemists into the shifters of the Reaches and Lammania, and necrocarnum into the Blood of Vol, both of which my players were familiar with so it felt like a natural progression. That said, I have two ideas for ways to tie the lore in and am looking for some community feedback:

1. Make it so that vestiges can only bind overlords, fluffed as the minor influence that the overlords can have while imprisoned by the flame. This opens up a number of plot hooks and ties in well given that my current campaign ends with some elements of Katashka, Rak Tulkhesh and Sakinnirot. It is also nice since, while I can find close translations between existing vestiges and the overlords (e.g. Rak Tulkhesh and a souped up Amon, Katashka and Acererak, etc.) with only minor tweaks, but the fact that there are a dozen or so unnamed and undescribed overlords means that I can port over some of the vestiges that don't fit into predefined overlords as these other ones. Overall probably not as much homebrewing required.

2. Make it so that vestiges are a wider scope of powerful people from history. Maybe include an overlord or two, but also a Valenar ancestor, powerful giant sorcerers, Tira Miron, Sora Kell, etc. as vestiges. I've seen the epic level vestiges that were homebrewed on this forum for the three progenitor dragons and would probably use those as the three 8th level ones, etc. This would provide more variety (since there would be more good and neutral options) which fits more with the flavor of binders in ToM, and it would allow me to tie binding into more aspects of the world to both introduce some history to my players and allow it to be used more in future campaigns that will have less to do with overlords. Plus, I could still introduce it in my current campaign with some overlord vestiges. The biggest downside here is that this is probably a bit more work, but I'm fine with that.

Overall I'm leaning towards the second option but am curious to hear what people have to say. Also, any suggestions for major characters that could work as vestiges (bonus points if you give example abilities!) would be greatly appreciated.

[Psyren]

There was an attempt to do this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?131821-Vestiges-in-Eberron) some years back. Not sure if it fits what you're after but just in case it helps. I'm not an Eberron expert by any means.

[Falontani]

I will definitely look into characters for you, however I'm not very proficient with pathfinder.

Another idea for vestiges (could be rolled into #2.) Anyone that has traded their soul to the keeper could possibly become a vestige.

The first Elan works as is, although if you'd like more Eberron feel on him you could have had him be a Seeker of the Blood of Vol.

The other psionic vestige could be all the souls of the Empty Ones who's body's were taken over by Quori.

One of the vestiges could be the last king of Galifar, powers should be kingly abilities.

[Abzalon]

HI,

Just so you know there have already been a binder adaptation to Pathfinder. Here it is : https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/radiance-house/occultist/ and here is the book from where it's from : https://www.opengamingstore.com/products/pact-magic-unbound-grimoire-of-lost-souls it comes with lots of new vestiges, which are more streamlined and created on a similar chassis (more or less). You may find some of these inspiring for what you wish to do.

sorry I don't have much insight on where you can go from here though

[digiman619]

There was an attempt (https://sites.google.com/site/eberronpathfinder/Home) to Pathfinder-ize the Ebberon setting, but it was abandoned in 2013, so I can't say if it'll be useful. As for a Pathfinder-ization of the Binder, it's been done already (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/pact-magic), though fitting the vestiges spirits into the lore might be tricky.

[Psyren]

Yeah, forgot to comment on the Pathfinder part of this, but digiman has the right link to the PF Occultist Pactmaker.

[adso]

Yeah, I think I'll probably end up mostly using the chassis of the pactmaker, but I think the bigger issue is flavoring things for Eberron. I've looked through CockroachTeaParty's reflavorings, as well as those from the Wayfinder Foundation (https://sites.google.com/site/wayfinderfoundationofkhorvaire/content/magic/vestiges), and have actually used the latter in a previous iteration since it is also converted to be Pathfinder. I think that those are quite solid ports, but still feel like there's opportunity to really integrate it a lot more with the setting. I'll take a look through the vestige list both for 3.5 and pathfinder pactmaker options to see if I can come up with some close parallels (for example, the wayfinder foundation rebranded Cabiri to become Belashyrra, the Lord of Eyes).

Really this all started from a comment I found from Keith Baker from a few years: "Personally, I say that Vestiges are immortal entities that linger in Dal Quor. Not exactly gods, they are beings who have become legends, and their spirits draw power and sustenance from that. I’ve called out titans of Xen’drik and ancient dragons as possible Vestiges. It’s entirely possible the Daughters of Sora Kell are trying to become Vestiges, or that Sora Kell is one." While I'm not entirely sold on the Dal Quor connection, I think the possibility of Titans, ancient dragons, Sora Kell, etc as vestiges would be a really cool ideas.

In fact, I may just use the Wayfinder Foundation vestiges with a Binder class that is heavily based off of the Pathfinder Pactmaker. Notable vestiges go up to 8th level, while in Pathfinder it goes up to 9th, so I'll create three 9th level vestiges for the progenitor dragons and then it should all work out. Plus using the 9th level progression with the 3.5 vestige ports should give the binder a slight bump in power to bring it more in line with other aspects of Pathfinder.

So with that in mind, anyone have suggestion for legendary or powerful entities that could be added as possible vestiges and/or ones that are similar to existing vestiges?

[Troacctid]

I'll just point out that the binder class is perfect for the Valenar. Calling on the spirits of the past to lend you a portion of their power? That's basically the most on-brand thing a Valenar elf can do.

[adso]

I'll just point out that the binder class is perfect for the Valenar. Calling on the spirits of the past to lend you a portion of their power? That's basically the most on-brand thing a Valenar elf can do.

That's an excellent idea! Perhaps a few vestiges based on ancient Tairnadal or the elven heroes of the rebellion against the giants? I've already included some aspects of ToM in Valenar with Incarnum based on channeling the powers of the souls of their ancestors, but this is a different approach that could add some more depth to the Valenar culture.

[RedMage125]

That's an excellent idea! Perhaps a few vestiges based on ancient Tairnadal or the elven heroes of the rebellion against the giants? I've already included some aspects of ToM in Valenar with Incarnum based on channeling the powers of the souls of their ancestors, but this is a different approach that could add some more depth to the Valenar culture.

That's great for low level vestiges. A higher level one could be Aeren himself.