First aid on a dead guy?

[Mars Ultor]

A character went to use the Heal skill to give first aid to someone during a battle. We couldn't recall if it was a DC 10 or 15 to stabilize the person. While rereading the skill, we realized that there's no mention of determining whether the person is alive or dead. The DM decided that without further information he would assume you needed a heal check to determine life, then a heal check for first aid--two actions.

I said that's ridiculous, if you take the time to see if someone is dead, by the time you get to heal them it will be too late. The PC then gave first aid to people without checking for life, he didn't want to risk someone dying because he checked to see if they were dead.

Is there a rule regarding a determination of whether someone is alive or dead? Is it a Spot check or something? Perhaps a move action rather than a standard action? Is there some description we're missing?

[Cygnia]

"As Heal involves familiarity with anatomy and physiology, this Skill may, at the DM's discretion, be applied to forensic matters, such as general cause of death or how long a body has been dead."

[Telonius]

Yeah, that doesn't seem particularly reasonable. If a guy is bleeding out, you'd try to stop the bleeding. If he's already dead, you haven't done any harm; but the delay could kill him.

The forensics rule is (I think) more for dealing with murder investigations.

There are a couple of spells to figure this out. Status is a Clr2 spell that lets you monitor the status of allies you touch. Deathwatch, an [Evil] spell, will tell you exactly what you want to know. (See if you can get your DM to allow you to research "Lifesight" - the exact same spell minus the [evil] tag - since it's absolutely stupid that a Good deity wouldn't want his clerics to know that kind of thing).

[Cygnia]

There are a couple of spells to figure this out. Status is a Clr2 spell that lets you monitor the status of allies you touch. Deathwatch, an [Evil] spell, will tell you exactly what you want to know. (See if you can get your DM to allow you to research "Lifesight" - the exact same spell minus the [evil] tag - since it's absolutely stupid that a Good deity wouldn't want his clerics to know that kind of thing).

Made doubly annoying since Healers -- who can only be of Good alignment -- have Deathwatch on their limited spell list

[hamishspence]

Made doubly annoying since Healers -- who can only be of Good alignment -- have Deathwatch on their limited spell list

Yes. I blame the 3.0-3.5 crossover - Deathwatch was not [Evil] in 3.0 and Miniatures Handbook only came out a month or so after the 3.5 PHB - the writers may have been unaware of the planned change.

[weckar]

Deathwatch being Evil makes zero sense. I blame the move of curing and healing from necromancy to conjuration, leaving necromancy the de facto 'evil' school.

[hamishspence]

Deathwatch being Evil makes zero sense. I blame the move of curing and healing from necromancy to conjuration, leaving necromancy the de facto 'evil' school.

Monte Cook was already saying Deathwatch should be changed to have the Evil tag, in BoVD a year or so before 3.5 came out.

[Mordaedil]

Since the DC for stabilizing a character is 15, we established that the DC 10 would determine the worst wound and DC 5 to determine of the person is still alive or dead.

Failing a DC 5 Heal check would mean you were stressed and couldn't determine from a quick check.

[Mars Ultor]

Since the DC for stabilizing a character is 15, we established that the DC 10 would determine the worst wound and DC 5 to determine of the person is still alive or dead.

Failing a DC 5 Heal check would mean you were stressed and couldn't determine from a quick check.


That's a sensible rule. But there's no printed rule regarding the determination of life or death?

[KillianHawkeye]

Honestly, it should just be perception.

Spot check to see if they're moving at all, or still bleeding out. Listen to hear them breathing, gasping, or moaning in pain. I don't think there are officially printed DCs for these things, but I would make them low (less than 10, although distraction and ambient conditions could complicate matters a little).

That being said, there's no reason not to attempt first aid on someone even if you aren't sure of their status, and IMO just trying it should reveal the answer whether you succeed or fail.

[Geddy2112]

Part of first aid is seeing if somebody is dead. Using the heal skill would probably involve checking for signs of life while trying to prevent somebody from dying. If somebody is already dead you can't do any more damage so I think it's reasonable to simply make the heal check. If you succeed and the person is dead, the character would learn the target is already dead. It should be a pretty easy perception(or heal) check to determine life or death and not take an action. It's a DC 0 to see a creature, and stablizing requires being able to touch the person so you would see them and obvious signs of life/lack thereof. At most a DC 5 to find signs of life.

As others have said, you can use heal to determine cause of death, illness, and other forensic applications. There is also magic that determines the state of life and death up to the minute.

[weckar]

Monte Cook was already saying Deathwatch should be changed to have the Evil tag, in BoVD a year or so before 3.5 came out.
Just because he said it does not make more sense.

[Telonius]

If you're really getting stuck over this, you can just purchase a bunch of Blessed Bandages (from Magic Item Compendium). Stabilizes instantly, only costs 10gp each - so even if you're putting one on a corpse it's only a waste of 10 gold.

[RedMage125]

Just because he said it does not make more sense.

Deathwatch explicitly "calls on the foul powers of undeath", to imitate the abilities of undead creatures who can sense the living. The Cleric spell Status has no [Evil] tag, does not use the forces of undeath, and does the same thing.

[Cygnia]

Not quite. Status basically is a sensory bond between you and one living being (and is 2nd lvl), Deathwatch is 1st lvl and works more on par like various Detect spells in which you're sweeping the area.

[Hua]

Why not simply state that you always assume they are still alive and attempt a healing? That way it always costs you your action, even if they happen to be dead already. If they are not dead, you can stabilize them.
We do this all the time when someone goes down from damage. Cleric runs over and casts a curing spell. If the person is already dead, they are invalid target for the spell, meaning the spell is cast but the cleric is 'holding a charge'.

Simple, logical, and fits all actual rules. Healing check would work the same way, except not holding a charge of anything at end.

[hamishspence]

Just because he said it does not make more sense.

Indeed. The point to be made is that it was his hobbyhorse - and so, when it comes to "who's to blame" he's the most plausible candidate.

[Thurbane]

Is there a rule regarding a determination of whether someone is alive or dead? Is it a Spot check or something? Perhaps a move action rather than a standard action? Is there some description we're missing?

I know I'm late to the party, but I came across something while updating a character of mine:


Spells and other effects that assess your current condition, such as status and deathwatch, indicate that you are dead. However, a character who succeeds on a Heal check (DC 15 + 1/2 your level + your Con modifier) can discern that you are actually alive.

...not sure if that has a practical application for general checks.

[weckar]

It's easier to tell you're still alive if you are naturally weaker? Weird.

EDIT: Oh, this is for an ACF that TRIES to look dead. Makes a little more sense, maybe.

[Thurbane]

It's easier to tell you're still alive if you are naturally weaker? Weird.

EDIT: Oh, this is for an ACF that TRIES to look dead. Makes a little more sense, maybe.

True - probably not very applicable for general checks.

My Dwarf Fighter/Rogue swapped out Evasion for Feign Death, so I was reading about it earlier today and it jogged my memory of this thread.

[Mordaedil]

The DC for stabilizing someone is 15, but we've always played with the assumption that passing 5 and 10 also tells you things about the subject. Passing 5 would tell you that the subject might not be breathing and passing 10 would tell you that he has no pulse. If you feel the other way makes more sense, then change it, doesn't really matter. The act of performing a heal check should tell you whether the subject is dead or alive for sure.