EK vs AT

[Bjarkmundur]

I'm having trouble deciding what to play.

Dex EK

Rapier and Shield
Bow for range
Action Surge, Reaction spells
soooo tanky

Str EK

Giant Sword
Amazing Damage
Heavy Armor
Action Surge and Reaction Spells
sooooo tanky

AT

Cunning Action is amazing
So many skills, and thieves' tools
Amazing single target control
Bow for range
Not tanky :(


I'm being torn between the amazing defensive capabilities of the EK with Action Surge and the ATs skill proficiencies and single target control.

I'm wondering if I'll have more fun being all around useful and darting around the battlefield, or being amazing at combat using superior tankyness and weaving spells between attacks with action surge and reaction spells.

Once my spell slots are out, do I want to be the tank, the big weapon, or the ninja?
As an AT I probably won't take many hits, but I'll soak less damage, so more damage goes to my teammates. On the other hand, I do have skills, sneak attack and Tasha's Laughter, which also means less damage taken by my teammates.

I'm not a fan of the trickster as a personality, so I'm likely going to play each class as the same character. An adventurer by-choice, confident in his abilities and doesn't understand how people can have a regular boring job.

Both sound amazing, but I'm terrible at making decisions xD

[SuperbDolphin]

I love the STR EK, it just reminds me of Reinhardt from Overwatch because of the fighting and roleplay choice! I would totally choose STR EK! :)
Also, great weapon mastery coupled with this would be super powerful.

[Man_Over_Game]

Do you want to be better in combat or out of combat?

That's the simplest/best way of solving your dilemma.


COMBAT
Eldritch Knight (Strength)
Eldritch Knight (Dexterity)
Arcane Trickster
OUT OF COMBAT


(Dexterity EK can afford to have fewer combat cantrips due to being able to use long range weapons, as well as having Dexterity as a more usable non-combat skill, so Dex EK is more OOC friendly than Str EK)

[Willie the Duck]

Without knowing the rest of your party, your overall preferences, or DM's style, it is very hard to give advice on the best choice. I will say that both classes really are some of the most fun types of characters to play.

EKs in general are the shore-up-weakness fighter. A Battlemaster is going to be using reposte to fill up reactions with extra attack and precision to turn misses (possibly using the -5/+10 feats) into hits. The Champion hopefully you have advantage-gainers to crit-fish. The EK is gaining mobility and tanking to beat the band. A high-Int, high-Str EK can use combat cantrips as their ranged option, such that they can dump Dex and still function at mid-high levels (past the point where a single javelin is much use). A high-Dex EK can dump Int and get utility cantrips. Actually, if you don't worry too much about Int, an EK could be a pretty good 'both Dex and Str'-style fighter with longbow and greatsword (bringing to mind all the old AD&D fighters of yore).

AT's are exactly as good as the player who plays them. They are like illusionist -- if you are inventive, they are exceedingly useful. If not, other rogues probably are a better choice.

[Chronos]

For starters, don't think of an arcane trickster as a spellcaster who can sneak. Think of it as a rogue who can dabble a bit in magic (and I expect the same holds for EKs). In the long run, it really is just dabbling: It's all well and good to be getting 1st-level spells at the same time that the real casters are getting 2nd-level spells, but by the time you're getting 4th level spells and the real casters are getting 9ths, you've fallen so far behind that your spells are almost irrelevant. Most of the time, an AT will be doing rogue stuff, and an EK will be doing fighter stuff.

In other words, what you really need to ask yourself is whether you want to play a fighter or a rogue.

[OverLordOcelot]

For starters, don't think of an arcane trickster as a spellcaster who can sneak. Think of it as a rogue who can dabble a bit in magic (and I expect the same holds for EKs). In the long run, it really is just dabbling:

In other words, what you really need to ask yourself is whether you want to play a fighter or a rogue.

I agree with the almost all of that, but I disagree with calling either just a 'dabbler', as their magic is pretty effective. "Dabbler" is more what I'd call someone who grabbed a level or two of a caster class, or a feat like magic initiate. IMO the important thing is to view their magic as a boost to what they do as a fighter/rogue, not as their main ability that's supplemented by martial tricks. An EK in an 11th level party isn't going to do anything noticeable by using his second level slot to weave a shatter in with some melee attacks, but if he misty steps to an enemy that thought he was safe and starts swinging with 3 attacks per round (plus action surge, reaction attacks, and bonus action attacks on later rounds), that's as scary as the 3rd-5th level spells the full casters are tossing around. And if the enemy counterspells his misty step, then he still has options (attack something else, disengage and move past, etc) and helped burn enemy counterspells so his allies can land a big spell. Similarly, defensive first level spells like absorb elements and shield remain very powerful even at high levels.

[Waterdeep Merch]

The Arcane Trickster is more useful in everything but combat, where the Eldritch Knight is by-and-large superior in every meaningful category (survivability, damage mitigation, damage potential, the one notable exception being maneuverability). You can shore up a lot of the EK's weaknesses by grabbing the Ritual Caster feat or choosing meaningful background options, though you can obviously graft that onto an Arcane Trickster as well if you'd rather take on more of an absolute support role. The AT has more severe limitations when it comes to enhancing their tankiness and damage, especially since illusion and enchantment magic do basically nothing to help in this category.

With the right support, the EK's the better all-rounder, especially for a front liner. But the AT is far superior at support and adventuring duties.

[XmonkTad]

I'm not a fan of the trickster as a personality, so I'm likely going to play each class as the same character. An adventurer by-choice, confident in his abilities and doesn't understand how people can have a regular boring job.

Not a fan of tricksters, so arcane trickster is going to be less recommended by my estimation. An EK is the way to go for what you want, and likely strength version. I wouldn't bother with a lot of INT either. You'll be fine with self buffs. It's hard to beat shield/absorb elements. Booming blade doesn't care about your INT either.

[CTurbo]

I say be a Dex Rapier and Shield EK/AT multiclass and be done with it. They pair perfectly with each other. You just need to decide if you want to be EK with a AT dip or be a AT with a EK dip. Either way, you'll want at least 5 levels of both.

[Dalebert]

If EK, I feel dex-based is tankier. Str is all about DMG output. Going two-handed weapons over shield is a huge ac hit when you consider magic shields. Med armor with +2 dex is fairly competitive with heavy and no dex. Also dex saves for aoes, particularly if you go shield master. Heavy armor with a dex dump is just going to eat a lot of fireballs.

[Man_Over_Game]

If EK, I feel dex-based is tankier. Str is all about DMG output. Going two-handed weapons over shield is a huge ac hit when you consider magic shields. Med armor with +2 dex is fairly competitive with heavy and no dex. Also dex saves for aoes, particularly if you go shield master. Heavy armor with a dex dump is just going to eat a lot of fireballs.

A Strength-based character can afford to leave his stat at a 15-16 for other options (Constitution, Intelligence, feats). For a Dexterity character to just break even in AC, he'll need to maximize his main stat. While maxing out a stat is easy for a SAD build, like with Battlemaster, it's a lot less reliable than on a MAD subclass like Eldritch Knight, not to mention that the EK has a lot more feat support than the Battlemaster (being able to use all the same feats as the Battlemaster, while also potentially using Ritual Caster, Magic Initiate, Spell Sniper, or War Caster).

Strength is better if you don't plan on maxing it, because you hit the AC cap with less investment.

[Mercurias]

It depends on your party makeup and style of play. Based on what you've said, I suspect you'd get a lot of mileage out of a Dex EK with Ritual Casting. You'd get lots of spell versatility, good damage per round in all ranges, good survivability, stealth effectiveness, and Ritual Casting would both stretch out your spell slots and allow you to perform useful magic even if you've burned every spell you have for the day.

I play D&D like a walking bad decisions meme, so I'd personally run as an AT with a Forgery Kit and ask the DM if I can start the game with a Geas requiring my character to steal at least one thing valued over 50 gold per week.

[Dalebert]

A Strength-based character can afford to leave his stat at a 15-16 for other options (Constitution, Intelligence, feats). For a Dexterity character to just break even in AC, he'll need to maximize his main stat.

It's kind of moot for an EK. A str EK will still want to Max str eventually and a dex EK will want to Max dex eventually for Max bonus to attack and DMG. For anyone else, you only need 14 dex for medium armor. A dex EK can go medium to start and switch to light when dex is finally high enough.

[LudicSavant]

It's kind of moot for an EK. A str EK will still want to Max str eventually and a dex EK will want to Max dex eventually for Max bonus to attack and DMG. For anyone else, you only need 14 dex for medium armor. A dex EK can go medium to start and switch to light when dex is finally high enough.

To elaborate on this:

First of all, a Fighter should always be maxing Strength or Dexterity.

Second of all, a Strength Fighter may not necessarily have better defenses than a Dexterity Fighter, for various reasons, including but not limited to...
- The practical impact of Stealth, Initiative, and Dexterity saves can, in practice, mitigate an amount of damage competitive with 1 AC.
- Cost. Plate Armor costs 1455 more gp than Studded Leather for just +1 AC. Consider that a Cloak of Protection costs 500gp or less by DMG guidelines, and Studded Leather + that will provide superior defenses to plate. In a world where magic items are a thing, Dex is actually strictly better protected at certain points in their progression.
- In a world where magic items are not a thing and large piles of gold have no value whatsoever (which is not advised by the books even for "low magic" campaigns, but some tables are like that anyways), Mage Armor matches the AC of nonmagical plate armor and has a very long duration.

[Man_Over_Game]

To elaborate on this:

First of all, a Fighter should always be maxing Strength or Dexterity.

Second of all, a Strength Fighter may not necessarily have better defenses than a Dexterity Fighter, for various reasons, including but not limited to...
- The practical impact of Stealth, Initiative, and Dexterity saves can, in practice, mitigate an amount of damage competitive with 1 AC.
- Cost. Plate Armor costs 1455 more gp than Studded Leather for just +1 AC. Consider that a Cloak of Protection costs 500gp or less by DMG guidelines, and Studded Leather + that will provide superior defenses to plate. In a world where magic items are a thing, Dex is actually strictly better protected at certain points in their progression.
- In a world where magic items are not a thing and large piles of gold have no value whatsoever (which is not advised by the books even for "low magic" campaigns, but some tables are like that anyways), Mage Armor matches the AC of nonmagical plate armor and has a very long duration.

Athletics does have its own value in climbing and grappling. It's hard to use many Dexterity skills in combat without first being a level 2 Rogue.

Light Armor:
Studded Leather, 45gp, AC= 12 + Dex modifier

Medium Armor:
Half Plate, 750gp, AC= 15 + Dex modifier (max 2)
Scale Mail, 50gp, AC= 14 + Dex modifier (max 2)

Heavy Armor:
Plate, 1,500gp, AC= 18
Splint, 200gp, AC= 17
Chain Mail, 75gp, AC= 16
Ring Mail, 30gp, AC= 14

I'm not sure if cost is something as simply covered by saying "The most expensive Light Armor is cheaper than the most expensive Heavy Armor". For example, you would need an 18 in Dexterity to get you the AC of what a heavy armor item would need that costs 30g more.

And while it is possible that magic items don't really exist, I have seen a lot more DMs have a bias towards Strength specific builds than Dexterity specific ones. I've seen a lot more magical axes and swords than Rapiers and Bows, and a lot more magical Heavy Armor sets than Medium/Light armored ones. And I don't think that's a bad thing. Strength-based classes are more dependent on magical items in order to bypass magical resistances (with the only Dexterity-specific classes that don't deal magic damage being some Rogue builds).
Give a party a +1 Light Armor, and now the Warlock can increase his AC by 8%.
Give a party a +1 Heavy Armor, and now the Paladin can increase his AC by 5%. You can afford to give away more Strength-based magical armor, because it makes less of an impact.

[jaappleton]

AT with two levels of Bladesinger makes you DAMN tanky.

[LudicSavant]

Athletics does have its own value in climbing and grappling.

Yes.


It's hard to use many Dexterity skills in combat without first being a level 2 Rogue. Just opening a fight from stealth is a considerable advantage and has nothing to do with Cunning Action.


I'm not sure if cost is something as simply covered by saying "The most expensive Light Armor is cheaper than the most expensive Heavy Armor". It isn't, which is why that's not what I said :smalltongue:


For example, you would need an 18 in Dexterity As Dalebert said, a Dex Fighter should be maxing Dex.

[Dalebert]

You can have slightly better AC with heavy armor not considering magic items. Half plate with +2 dex is only one lower. However, I feel it's very hard to compare that +1 AC against all the benefits of not being a giant paperweight when the fireball comes, or when you fall into water and need to swim, or when you need to be just a little stealthy--like not necessarily rogue-like stealth but a dex-based fighter will still reach +5 stealth just from maxxing dex and may have armor that doesn't impose disadvantage. He's less likely to drag the party stealth roll down.

So I'm not saying str-based is worse. I'm arguing that it tends to be less defensive. Heavy armor makes you viable if you went str in order to be more dmg intensive. And to maximise that dmg potential with str, that tends to be a two-handed weapon build with feats like GWM or Polearm master which means you're now also taking a significant AC hit from not having a shield.

To be fair though, many dex dmg builds will also forgo a shield either for TWF or using a ranged weapon with multiple attacks. The ranged builds don't need the AC as much though as they're not going for tanking. I'm mainly thinking of a build that is focused on being tough and is willing to sacrifice some dmg potential for it. In that case, medium or light armor, dex-based, and carrying a shield seems the way to go, possibly with shield master.

[Bjarkmundur]

Thanks for your replies. Your comments have been invaluable!
I think we're looking at the Dex EK.

PRIMARY
Dexterity
Constitution
Wisdom
Intelligence
Strength
Charisma
DUMP

Duelist Fighting Style
Rapier + Shield

Il post a Link once I'm done writing it up ^^

[HamsterKun]

I personally prefer Strength EK because of the offensive and defensive spells that can be used to augment your physical capabilities.

[Dalebert]

Absorb Elements helps make up for bad dex saves on str based but it makes a dex based EK even tougher to AOEs.

[Willie the Duck]

I personally prefer Strength EK because of the offensive and defensive spells that can be used to augment your physical capabilities.


Absorb Elements helps make up for bad dex saves on str based but it makes a dex based EK even tougher to AOEs.

That's really it. An EK can be a great Dex-based warrior, but it is nice for a Str-based warrior (particularly a Dex-dumping one) because it can mitigate their greatest liabilities (vulnerability to AoEs and lack of a level-scaling ranged option).

[diplomancer]

Thanks for your replies. Your comments have been invaluable!
I think we're looking at the Dex EK.

PRIMARY
Dexterity
Constitution
Wisdom
Intelligence
Strength
Charisma
DUMP

Duelist Fighting Style
Rapier + Shield

Il post a Link once I'm done writing it up ^^

Another advantage of going this route is that you can more easily mix the 2 of them if you want to. If you go strength EK you are kinda locked in to it. If you do mix them try to convince your DM to let you use the 1/3 caster progression table, instead of the multi-classing rules, as they are very unfavourable to 1/3 casters.

[Chronos]

One thing to keep in mind with Dex saves is that, if you're right up in the middle of the enemy, you probably won't have to worry about Fireballs. Most things that target Dex saves are areas of effect.

[Tanarii]

It's kind of moot for an EK. A str EK will still want to Max str eventually and a dex EK will want to Max dex eventually for Max bonus to attack and DMG. For anyone else, you only need 14 dex for medium armor. A dex EK can go medium to start and switch to light when dex is finally high enough.Thats not even remotely true. Just like any class, Str S&B EKs with a 16 Str are perfectly effective through T2, and don't need more than a Str18 through endgame.

This is even more true with EKs than other fighter archetypes, since a huge chunk of their damage can come from the War Magic feature, meaning you'll only be physically attacking once a round anyway, making focusing on boosting physical damage somewhat moot. Although you'll need a way to cast S-spells with S&B.

[Dalebert]

Thats not even remotely true. Just like any class, Str S&B EKs with a 16 Str are perfectly effective through T2, and don't need more than a Str18 through endgame.


Fighters get two extra ASIs versus standard. Maybe through tier 2 but I don't think you'll find many fighters who haven't maxed their primary stat by Endgame. I don't think many would share your disregard for a fighter's primary stat.

Even if we concede that and they only go 16 dex, medium armor remains competitive with heavy for reasons given if your primary goal is toughness. I'm not even seriously considering medium armor master.

[ChiefBigFeather]

Are you sure a S&B EK will do more melee damage then the AT? For the AT I count 50.5 with 20 dex and 14 int. I can only count 34,5 (3 attacks) or 43 (GFB+Attack) for the EK. Plus the AT is much more likely to win initiative.

[Mercurias]

Are you sure a S&B EK will do more melee damage then the AT? For the AT I count 50.5 with 20 dex and 14 int. I can only count 34,5 (3 attacks) or 43 (GFB+Attack) for the EK. Plus the AT is much more likely to win initiative.

I think the OP was ultimately more interested in EK’s survivability than AT’s DPR and bag of nice tricks.

[Tanarii]

Fighters get two extra ASIs versus standard. Maybe through tier 2 but I don't think you'll find many fighters who haven't maxed their primary stat by Endgame. I don't think many would share your disregard for a fighter's primary stat.I run a feat free game, and EK players often don't max Str through T2 (by which time which they get 1 extra ASI). So I know your optimization claims don't hold in play.

More importantly, what matters is the OP understand that building to head for a Str 16 Int 16 EK, then raising stats or going for Feats, is an option. It's not something that should be closed out because you like to optimize for Str.

------

IMO Medium Armor master is not designed for pure Dex builds. Like Dual Wielder. MAM is for when you want to wield 2H weapons, but still be sneaky. DW is for when you want to wield two 1H Str weapons. (If you want to be sneaky and wield 2 1H Str weapon, be prepared to invest a lot :smallamused: )

[KorvinStarmast]

I have an idea for a half elf EK who is dex based.
Point Buy: 13, 15, 13, 12 12 8
Starting Stats: 13, 16, 14, 12, 12, 10.
Dark Vision, can't be slept, adv versus Charm.
Background: I am thinking Sailor or Soldier, but Outlander also works.
I start with six skill proficiencies, Dex as my combat stat, and the prospect of 7 ASI/Feat choices over the course of my career.
(It is really tempting to do this with a High Elf to get that cantrip to begin ... but I have chosen half elf).
This character early in life can take advantage of medium armor and shield to have a decent AC, and uses Long Bow for ranged attacks to good effect.
With six skills, where do I go?
Arcana, Persuasion, Perception, Stealth, Athletics, and Pick one (Acrobatics or Tool Proficiency?)
I then get Elvish and another free language from 1/2 elf.
Tools: land vehicles? Water vehicles? Navigation tools?
The feats come as needed, and I think that at 6 Ritual Caster is the sweet spot.
ASI for bump Dex at 4, Ritual caster at 6, ASI at 8. From there on in, feats.

[Ogeeogelthorpe]

Flat arcane trickster vs flat eldritch knight lags a bit in damage but has far more utility. An endgame EK with great weapon master, a + weapon and 4 attacks is going to hit 4 times at 2D6 or 1D12 +18, assuming they hit 2/3 of the time. Probably 4/5 times with a belt of storm giant strength. Archer eldritch knight with 4 attacks and sharpshooter again outpaces arcane trickster in damage because of the 1D8+15 x 4.

AT damage doesn't lag too far behind but the averages are lower because of the consistent damage from Great Weapon Master. Assume you're attacking with constant advantage because you should be invisible or hidden most of the time. Booming blade + sneak attack at endgame is going to be 4D8+5(max dex without tomes) and 10D6 sneak attack. With shadowblade at 3rd level you're now 7D8+10D6. Not anything to take lightly. Also the skills are very underrated.

If you take anywhere from 2 to 9 levels in bladesinger wizard with your arcane trickster you can increase your utility and up your tankiness. Bladesong + haste + shield would make your AC 30+ on a given turn which is every bit as tanky as a sword and board EK. Plus the added enchantment/illusion spells that can be big boosts are mirror image, blur, and greater invisiblity. You lose a little sneak attack progression so your damage potential on regular attacks decreases but you'll have a lot more blasting spells and potent save spells to pull from that work well with your magical ambush.

Here is a good guide on site that discusses the potential of AT/Bladesinger combo.
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?549828-Magique-Filou-The-Arcane-Trickster-s-Guide

Both are fun builds without a doubt. It honestly depends on your play style; Swiss army knife (Arcane trickster/Bladesinger), a scalpel (Pure arcane trickster) or a sledgehammer. (Eldritch Knight)

[Ganryu]

Personally, I like making classes into Gish that shouldn't be. Favorite is (if UA is allowed) Stone Sorcerer with Green Flame Blade.

But of the two as others mentioned, Utility vs Combat.

EK is still a fighter when out of spells, and wrecks a battlefield.

AT is a rogue, and therefore great out of combat with good utility.

And looks like ya chose anyways.

[ChiefBigFeather]

Flat arcane trickster vs flat eldritch knight lags a bit in damage but has far more utility. An endgame EK with great weapon master, a + weapon and 4 attacks is going to hit 4 times at 2D6 or 1D12 +18, assuming they hit 2/3 of the time. Probably 4/5 times with a belt of storm giant strength. Archer eldritch knight with 4 attacks and sharpshooter again outpaces arcane trickster in damage because of the 1D8+15 x 4.

AT damage doesn't lag too far behind but the averages are lower because of the consistent damage from Great Weapon Master. Assume you're attacking with constant advantage because you should be invisible or hidden most of the time. Booming blade + sneak attack at endgame is going to be 4D8+5(max dex without tomes) and 10D6 sneak attack. With shadowblade at 3rd level you're now 7D8+10D6. Not anything to take lightly. Also the skills are very underrated.

The EK does about 50 average damage vs CR appropriate AC. The AT can do 58 with GFB, 46 with BB. That's not counting crits (too lazy), which heavily favor the AT. Both calculations are done assuming +3 weapons.

I don't think the AT does less damage, the math doesn't add up.

[Ogeeogelthorpe]

The EK does about 50 average damage vs CR appropriate AC. The AT can do 58 with GFB, 46 with BB. That's not counting crits (too lazy), which heavily favor the AT. Both calculations are done assuming +3 weapons.

I don't think the AT does less damage, the math doesn't add up.

Assuming 3/4 hits strike with great weapon master which if you have a +3 weapon why aren't you using it?
That's 54 (18*3) damage alone before rolling 6D6 or 3D12.

[ChiefBigFeather]

Maybe I got something wrong?
Proficiency+str+weapon enchantment-GWM=6+5+3-5=9
That would be 55%. I calculated using 50%.