[DM] Taking over the reigns of a D&D 5E LVL 8 game, have some worries

[SpikeFightwicky]

Howdy folks,

I'm taking over as DM for a game I've been playing in, and the characters are all going to be level 8. I don't really have any problems with story or enemies, but my main concern is that one of the players has been getting some ideas from online. He mentioned the "Summon 8 pixies, who then polymorph the party into T-Rexes" use of Conjure Woodland Beings, and honestly I'm not sure how to handle that without bogging things down... The way I see it going is:

1st time it happens:
All PCs turn into T-Rexes, the enemies withdraw, the players wait an hour before it wears off (T-Rexes are dumb and will either wander aimlessly or run off to hunt if no enemies / tasty morsels are around) with a few enemy scouts watching from a distance.

2nd time it happens:
Enemies catch on to what happened, hide until the spell wears off, and ambush the party the second they switch back, though the party may be scattered and out of position and easy pickings. Options include attacking the pixies.

3rd time it happens:
By this point the enemy figures out what's going on, and the next time it happens, a spellcaster who is now tagging along with ambush parties drops a fireball (really, any AoE... they have 1 HP) to kill the pixies in one go, and the battle proceeds as usual.

Potential Issues:
-This all sounds dreary... realistically, the enemies they'll be mostly fighting won't be dumb, and will either strategically withdraw from 6 t-rexes or flee in fear. This will bog things down whenever that combo is cast.
-Other players may feel like the one druid is dictating what other PCs do whenever he casts that combo (you're a t-rex! it's great! yeah... but I just wanted to play my archer)
-The druid might feel singled out and metagamed by the enemy tactics.
-If we spend half an hour setting up the battlemat, only for everything to be repositioned once the party becomes 15x15 beasts, only for battle to halt soon after, well I can't imagine anyone enjoying that.

Question(s):
-What does a pixie do to "defend itself to the best of its abilities" after the caster can no longer give verbal commands? As soon as the caster becomes a beast, they can't give clear commands to the pixies, who then default to "Defend themselves from hostile creatures". So would a pixie's default defense be to go invisible, then breaking concentration and negating the entire point of conjuring them in the first place?

TLDR: This combo sounds like a logistical nightmare... how do DMs deal with it? Are my assumptions for how the enemy will react on point? Far off? Too lenient? Too strict?

[DeTess]

Dealign with this is really easy. If you read the spell that's supposed to conjure the pixies, you'll realize that the player does not get to specify the kind of creature that appears, only the amount and CR. You, as the DM, get to decide whether he gets pixies, or something else. In other words, he can only do the T-rex trick when you as the DM decide that would make for a nice encounter.

I do suggest you inform the player in advance about the way the spell works so they can spend their build resources elsewhere if they want.

[SuperbDolphin]

Howdy folks,

I'm taking over as DM for a game I've been playing in, and the characters are all going to be level 8. I don't really have any problems with story or enemies, but my main concern is that one of the players has been getting some ideas from online. He mentioned the "Summon 8 pixies, who then polymorph the party into T-Rexes" use of Conjure Woodland Beings, and honestly I'm not sure how to handle that without bogging things down... The way I see it going is:

1st time it happens:
All PCs turn into T-Rexes, the enemies withdraw, the players wait an hour before it wears off (T-Rexes are dumb and will either wander aimlessly or run off to hunt if no enemies / tasty morsels are around) with a few enemy scouts watching from a distance.

2nd time it happens:
Enemies catch on to what happened, hide until the spell wears off, and ambush the party the second they switch back, though the party may be scattered and out of position and easy pickings. Options include attacking the pixies.

3rd time it happens:
By this point the enemy figures out what's going on, and the next time it happens, a spellcaster who is now tagging along with ambush parties drops a fireball (really, any AoE... they have 1 HP) to kill the pixies in one go, and the battle proceeds as usual.

Potential Issues:
-This all sounds dreary... realistically, the enemies they'll be mostly fighting won't be dumb, and will either strategically withdraw from 6 t-rexes or flee in fear. This will bog things down whenever that combo is cast.
-Other players may feel like the one druid is dictating what other PCs do whenever he casts that combo (you're a t-rex! it's great! yeah... but I just wanted to play my archer)
-The druid might feel singled out and metagamed by the enemy tactics.
-If we spend half an hour setting up the battlemat, only for everything to be repositioned once the party becomes 15x15 beasts, only for battle to halt soon after, well I can't imagine anyone enjoying that.

Question(s):
-What does a pixie do to "defend itself to the best of its abilities" after the caster can no longer give verbal commands? As soon as the caster becomes a beast, they can't give clear commands to the pixies, who then default to "Defend themselves from hostile creatures". So would a pixie's default defense be to go invisible, then breaking concentration and negating the entire point of conjuring them in the first place?

TLDR: This combo sounds like a logistical nightmare... how do DMs deal with it? Are my assumptions for how the enemy will react on point? Far off? Too lenient? Too strict?

Maybe have the NPCs throw a mysterious ranger like guy who specializes in destroying dinosaurs with extra damage to larger creatures?

[jjordan]

5 inch tall T-Rexes?

[SuperbDolphin]

5 inch tall T-Rexes?

Soooo, Compies?

[SpikeFightwicky]

Dealign with this is really easy. If you read the spell that's supposed to conjure the pixies, you'll realize that the player does not get to specify the kind of creature that appears, only the amount and CR. You, as the DM, get to decide whether he gets pixies, or something else. In other words, he can only do the T-rex trick when you as the DM decide that would make for a nice encounter.

I do suggest you inform the player in advance about the way the spell works so they can spend their build resources elsewhere if they want.

Hmmm, is there a tweet or errata clarification about this? We've been using it so far as "summon what you want". This would basically solve the issue right there.


Maybe have the NPCs throw a mysterious ranger like guy who specializes in destroying dinosaurs with extra damage to larger creatures?

I think that if it happens super often, this would be a legitimate answer, or someone who can dispel easily. It might also be a good way to get mileage from lower CR ranged enemies who just snipe the pixies from hard to reach (well... hard for a T-Rex) places.



5 inch tall T-Rexes?


Lol actually the MM has Velociraptors statted as their historical tiny form, so this would be a hillarious mix-up to occasionally happen!

I'm hoping the game delays caused by the spell would allow a consensus to not use it anymore. If the enemies withdraw until it wears off, it basically resets the encounter, but the druid is down a 4th level spell.

[Kurt Kurageous]

You may need a new session 0 to clarify your expectations.

There's a lot of bad stuff out on the 'net. If the player wants to try something, ask them to tell you out of game and bring the evidence from RAW as to why this would work. Tell them they need to do this because in game if they spring this on you the game will grind to a halt to look up the rules.

One way I know to end the problem is to assign homework. Players don't do homework. DMs must do homework.

[Keravath]

Hmmm, is there a tweet or errata clarification about this? We've been using it so far as "summon what you want". This would basically solve the issue right there.
...

I'm hoping the game delays caused by the spell would allow a consensus to not use it anymore. If the enemies withdraw until it wears off, it basically resets the encounter, but the druid is down a 4th level spell.

Sage Advice Compendium (which is considered official rules clarifications).

https://media.wizards.com/2019/dnd/downloads/SA-Compendium.pdf

"When you cast a spell like conjure woodland beings, does the spellcaster or the DM choose the creatures that are conjured?
A number of spells in the game let you summon creatures. Conjure animals, conjure celestial, conjure minor elementals, and conjure woodland beings are just a few examples. Some spells of this sort specify that the spellcaster chooses the creature conjured. For example, find familiar gives the caster a list of animals to choose from. Other spells of this sort let the spellcaster choose from among several broad options. For example, conjure minor elementals offers four options. Here are the first two:
• One elemental of challenge rating 2 or lower
• Two elementals of challenge rating 1 or lower
The design intent for options like these is that the spell-caster chooses one of them, and then the DM decides what creatures appear that fit the chosen option. For example, if you pick the second option, the DM chooses the two elementals that have a challenge rating of 1 or lower. A spellcaster can certainly express a preference for what creatures shows up, but it’s up to the DM to determine if they do. The DM will often choose creatures that are appropriate for the campaign and that will be fun to introduce in a scene."

If a player wants to try to trivialize an encounter by using a particular combination of summoned creature abilities then the DM can just limit which creatures get summoned.

Keep in mind that using any summoning spell or Animate Objects can slow down combat a bit if the player with all the new pets is not efficient about rolling for them. Someone who knows what they are doing and can roll multiple sets of dice at once will make that aspect of combat go much more quickly. This can also be a reason to choose fewer stronger creatures when summoning though some of the large packs of creatures can be more mechanically effective.

[darknite]

DM controls what's summoned. The players can suggest but that's it. Or you could have a method where they can choose but there's a list and they have to choose each option from the list on a casting before they choose a certain option again.

[SpikeFightwicky]

Oh wow! Thx that actually clears things up. I checked all the conjure spells and yeah... some you can specify, some you can't. Makes things easier! I think I'll just send the link to the players and let them read up.

[MrStabby]

Or have the next extended adventure all be indoors.

[The Kool]

You may need a new session 0 to clarify your expectations.

There's a lot of bad stuff out on the 'net. If the player wants to try something, ask them to tell you out of game and bring the evidence from RAW as to why this would work. Tell them they need to do this because in game if they spring this on you the game will grind to a halt to look up the rules.

One way I know to end the problem is to assign homework. Players don't do homework. DMs must do homework.

This is important. Please do this, it will prevent similar such issues from happening in the future. You've seen the signs, address them now because they will show back up.

I've had this issue with players before. If it becomes a repeated issue, make it perfectly clear to them that if a situation with questionable RAW shows up in game without warning, you will make a ruling on the spot. There is a high likelihood this ruling will not be in the player's favor, and there is a high likelihood that the player will be unprepared for the situation when their Plan A gets shot down. Make it crystal clear that it is in the player's best interest to clear things with you in advance.

[GlenSmash!]

I'll also throw my vote in for having a Session 0 to discuss expectations, and picking summons that are appropriate to the environment for Conjure woodland beings.

[BoringInfoGuy]

Player: Pixies, turn us all into T-Rex’s.

Pixies: What’s a T-Rex?

Remember, no internet or other mass communication system exists in most fantasy worlds. Or at least are not available for the general public.

Unless pixies and T-Rex’s can be found in the same geographical area, there is a realistic chance one is unaware of the existence of the other.

Come to think of it:

DM: How does YOUR character know what a T-Rex is?

[Malifice]

Howdy folks,

I'm taking over as DM for a game I've been playing in, and the characters are all going to be level 8. I don't really have any problems with story or enemies, but my main concern is that one of the players has been getting some ideas from online. He mentioned the "Summon 8 pixies, who then polymorph the party into T-Rexes" use of Conjure Woodland Beings, and honestly I'm not sure how to handle that without bogging things down... The way I see it going is:

1st time it happens:
All PCs turn into T-Rexes, the enemies withdraw, the players wait an hour before it wears off (T-Rexes are dumb and will either wander aimlessly or run off to hunt if no enemies / tasty morsels are around) with a few enemy scouts watching from a distance.

2nd time it happens:
Enemies catch on to what happened, hide until the spell wears off, and ambush the party the second they switch back, though the party may be scattered and out of position and easy pickings. Options include attacking the pixies.

3rd time it happens:
By this point the enemy figures out what's going on, and the next time it happens, a spellcaster who is now tagging along with ambush parties drops a fireball (really, any AoE... they have 1 HP) to kill the pixies in one go, and the battle proceeds as usual.

Potential Issues:
-This all sounds dreary... realistically, the enemies they'll be mostly fighting won't be dumb, and will either strategically withdraw from 6 t-rexes or flee in fear. This will bog things down whenever that combo is cast.
-Other players may feel like the one druid is dictating what other PCs do whenever he casts that combo (you're a t-rex! it's great! yeah... but I just wanted to play my archer)
-The druid might feel singled out and metagamed by the enemy tactics.
-If we spend half an hour setting up the battlemat, only for everything to be repositioned once the party becomes 15x15 beasts, only for battle to halt soon after, well I can't imagine anyone enjoying that.

Question(s):
-What does a pixie do to "defend itself to the best of its abilities" after the caster can no longer give verbal commands? As soon as the caster becomes a beast, they can't give clear commands to the pixies, who then default to "Defend themselves from hostile creatures". So would a pixie's default defense be to go invisible, then breaking concentration and negating the entire point of conjuring them in the first place?

TLDR: This combo sounds like a logistical nightmare... how do DMs deal with it? Are my assumptions for how the enemy will react on point? Far off? Too lenient? Too strict?

Say No.

Its OK to do.

[Galithar]

Player: Pixies, turn us all into T-Rex’s.

Pixies: What’s a T-Rex?

Remember, no internet or other mass communication system exists in most fantasy worlds. Or at least are not available for the general public.

Unless pixies and T-Rex’s can be found in the same geographical area, there is a realistic chance one is unaware of the existence of the other.

Come to think of it:

DM: How does YOUR character know what a T-Rex is?

This. Not that there aren't other things you can polymorph characters into that cause just as many problems, but it's easy to say that the pixies (aka Fey spirits you have summoned to show up as pixies) haven't seen everything. You have to have SEEN a creature to polymorph someone into it, right? Or is that just Wildshape?

[Malifice]

Player: Pixies, turn us all into T-Rex’s.

Pixies (giggling): Turn the party into 6" tall T-rexes.... turn invisible.

https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51S3Aqa2FHL._SX258_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg

They are Pixies remember.

[Kurt Kurageous]

If I concede the idea is valid...

You can be a T rex, but you do not get the proficiency bonus as you have no idea how to BE a t rex.

You lose speech. No one talks at the table as long as you are a t rex.

Ok, so go be a t rex, get it out of your system, and then lets play DnD.

[The Kool]

Just a question... Do dinosaurs even exist in your campaign setting?

[SpikeFightwicky]

Currently dinosaurs are not a thing in the game, and I have zero plans for them so I honestly don't think it'll be an issue, come to think of it. Actually, the way the DM reigns were handed over, there was a bit of a soft reset (players were allowed to rebuild or make entirely new characters, working as sort of a time based re-incarnation thing) so theoretically, none of them know any crazy beasts until they see them.

Actually, that's an interesting question: what comprises a "command" (as per the conjure woodland beings spell)? What happens if the pixies get the command "polymorph us into X". Do the pixies coordinate, or do they all start trying to polymorph everyone haphazardly? Also, if you say "polymorph us all into t-rexes" and the pixie has no idea what that is, do they just guess? It would be funny if the party ended up as bunnies because the pixies don't know what a t-rex is, but they are familiar with Rex breeds of rabbit.

I think as you're all mentioning, just using RAW should allow me to mess things up in a way that doesn't seem like shenanigans.

[The Kool]

I think as you're all mentioning, just using RAW should allow me to mess things up in a way that doesn't seem like shenanigans.

It's also a fantastic way to establish that common sense and the rules can actually get along, and far more importantly, that just because the rules suggest something is possible doesn't mean they can freely do it. Far too often players get wrapped up in the rules and limit themselves to creative loopholes, forgetting to break their minds out of the box and roleplay the situation. Scenes like this encourage that, set in a context of wacky fun. And as a bonus, it also lets you know if any of the players are the type to throw a hissy fit when the DM tells them 'no'.

[strangebloke]

Just say: "no"

I don't know if you've DMed before, but it's very necessary to be able to tell your players that they're not allowed to do something.

Especially here, when you're well backed up by the rules and sage advice. You're a new DM don't get pushed around.

Just be very clear. You're not trying to compete with the player. You're concerned that this strategy isn't going to be fun for the group, so it's out.

[OverLordOcelot]

The simplest solution: Any time a spell is causing a problem, read the actual spell wording. There are so many problems caused by 'some guy said something online so I'm doing it' that can be solved by looking at what the spell says and interpreting it. Often simply reading the actual spell text and interpreting it yourself will show the solution, for example in this case the DM picks the creatures summoned, not the player.

[sightlessrealit]

If I concede the idea is valid...

You can be a T rex, but you do not get the proficiency bonus as you have no idea how to BE a t rex.

You lose speech. No one talks at the table as long as you are a t rex.

Ok, so go be a t rex, get it out of your system, and then lets play DnD.

Kay *next session turns into t rex*
*Repeat*
Turning into a t rex is playing DND.

[SpikeFightwicky]

Just say: "no"

I don't know if you've DMed before, but it's very necessary to be able to tell your players that they're not allowed to do something.

Especially here, when you're well backed up by the rules and sage advice. You're a new DM don't get pushed around.

Just be very clear. You're not trying to compete with the player. You're concerned that this strategy isn't going to be fun for the group, so it's out.

I'm not new, exactly, but it's been about 10 years since I've run a game. I'm hoping to shed my training wheels quickly :P I don't think the players will have any issues if I can post legitimate sources of interpretation, such as from errata or Sage Advice. I don't think the players are min/max abusers, just that whole summon thing seemed like a novelty that might be tried out in the game. Though now I'm armed with enough feedback to navigate that situation. I'll also have to get used to saying "no", as you mention. I recall 3.5 being like Fort Knox as far as interpretations for rules go, and 5E seems a bit more open, which gives me leeway I'm not used to. Should be fun :smalltongue:


The simplest solution: Any time a spell is causing a problem, read the actual spell wording. There are so many problems caused by 'some guy said something online so I'm doing it' that can be solved by looking at what the spell says and interpreting it. Often simply reading the actual spell text and interpreting it yourself will show the solution, for example in this case the DM picks the creatures summoned, not the player.

That is very true. I know a few players in the game tend to misinterpret things reasonably often, though having them reread usually fixes it. Online is a boon and a bane for D&D, it seems :D

[strangebloke]

I'm not new, exactly, but it's been about 10 years since I've run a game. I'm hoping to shed my training wheels quickly :P I don't think the players will have any issues if I can post legitimate sources of interpretation, such as from errata or Sage Advice. I don't think the players are min/max abusers, just that whole summon thing seemed like a novelty that might be tried out in the game. Though now I'm armed with enough feedback to navigate that situation. I'll also have to get used to saying "no", as you mention. I recall 3.5 being like Fort Knox as far as interpretations for rules go, and 5E seems a bit more open, which gives me leeway I'm not used to. Should be fun :smalltongue:


5e is more open, and it's for the best. Still, there are a couple of technically allowed strats that can lead to unfun situations. This is one of them. Another is the undead horde. (This one is best solved by actually roleplaying the skeletons as appropriate.)

Just ask that they give you warning before trying something really crazy so that you can think about it.

[BoringInfoGuy]

5e is more open, and it's for the best. Still, there are a couple of technically allowed strats that can lead to unfun situations. This is one of them. Another is the undead horde. (This one is best solved by actually roleplaying the skeletons as appropriate.)

Just ask that they give you warning before trying something really crazy so that you can think about it.

Sometimes things do come up mid game. The player just gets an idea and comes up with something you aren’t certain about.

Make your on the spot ruling but remember - and make certain your players understand - that you have the right to change your mind after you’ve had a chance to look things up and think on it.

Just because it worked once does not mean it is now set in stone.

[SpikeFightwicky]

5e is more open, and it's for the best. Still, there are a couple of technically allowed strats that can lead to unfun situations. This is one of them. Another is the undead horde. (This one is best solved by actually roleplaying the skeletons as appropriate.)

Just ask that they give you warning before trying something really crazy so that you can think about it.


Sometimes things do come up mid game. The player just gets an idea and comes up with something you aren’t certain about.

Make your on the spot ruling but remember - and make certain your players understand - that you have the right to change your mind after you’ve had a chance to look things up and think on it.

Just because it worked once does not mean it is now set in stone.

Honestly, thanks to you guys and all other respondents. I'm getting the feeling that I'm worrying too much over this. My group is pretty reasonable, so yeah, I'll communicate with them beforehand, and they know I haven't DM'd 5E yet so they'll hopefully go easy. This whole thread has done wonders to help my confidence. My first session this Sunday so now I'm cautiously optimistic instead of nervously anxious :smallbiggrin:

[Nagog]

6 T-Rexes and 6 Pixies? Sounds like a powerful team, if not all that bright. If this becomes a repeated issue, just scale up the enemies to compensate. For example, make a wizard that uses spells that require Int saves. T-Rexes don't have that great of Int, so striking them where it hurts there can discourage repeated use of such a tactic. Alternately, if they pull this out of their backside in a battle with set enemies, have a spellcaster on the enemy team summon either a large enemy to distract them (Dragons make good tanks and full party focus grabbers) while the humanoids (or other minion level enemies) hunt down and take out the pixies, and one by one the party starts reverting back into their normal forms until they're fighting the Tank Monster as their humanoid selves.
Another good option is an Umber Hulk, or a few. One per enemy. Their Confusing Gaze ability will sow discord and chaos among the party, and while they are difficult monsters, the charisma save against the ability is almost always going to be easier when not a lumbering lizard.
Spells that require an Int save:
Phantasmal Force 2nd level
Symbol (lots of fun utility here) 7th level
Feeblemind (Could cause some fear among the party as one of their own is so severely hampered by it) 8th level

Also, as with the Umber Hulk, Charisma saves are another weakness to exploit.