Fixing Witch Bolt?

[Segev]

Ooh, do a thread on witch bolt next! I wanna see a big post of everyones collated fixes for that

Sure! You asking this question made me think of an idea I felt like sharing.

For reference, the thread from which the above quote is taken was discussing how to fix true strike so that it ideally remained a cantrip but became competitive as a choice with other cantrips and wasn't a waste of time to cast in 99% of situations. See that thread for discussion.

Now, to witch bolt!

This spell isn't in the SRD, so I'll just summarize it here: You pick a target, and an arc of electricity connects you and him. He takes 1d12 damage now and on each of your turns while you maintain Concentration. If he ever is more than 30 feet from you, or makes his save, the spell ends. There is scaling damage based on increased spell slot expenditure for round 1's damage, but not for subsequent rounds.

The most obvious flaw with this spell is that it relies on its continued damage to be a useful expenditure of a spell slot compared to other spells of its level, but it ends if the target creature devotes even part of its move action to getting out of range, even briefly. The damage being over time and taking Concentration is also problematic, but it's the fact that it is mostly a few d12 one-shot for a 2nd level spell is the biggest weakness.

So, here's my proposed change:

Witch Bolt
Level 2 Evocation
Casting time: 1 action
Range: 30 feet
Components: V, S, M (a lodestone)
Duration: Concentration, up to 1 minute
When you cast this spell, you set up an electrical force between you and the target which has either attractive or repulsive properties (chosen at the time of casting). The target immediately takes 1d12 electricity damage, and may make a Dexterity save for half. The electrical force is visible as an arc of lightning between you and your target for the duration while the target is within range (though it becomes invisible if he leaves it, and resumes visibility if the range closes once again).

If you chose to make the effect attractive, on each of your subsequent turns in which you end within 30 feet of him, the target takes an additional 1d12 electricity damage (Dexterity save for half). While the electrical force is visible, the target must make a Strength saving throw on each of his turns; if he fails, he cannot move away from you. If he succeeds, he treats any movement that increases the distance (while the electrical force is visible) from you as though passing through difficult terrain.

If you chose to make the effect repulsive, on each of the target's subsequent turns in which he ends within 30 feet of you, the target takes an additional 1d12 electricity damage (with no save). While the electrical force is visible, he must succeed on a Strength saving throw before he can move closer to you, and treats any attempt to move closer to you as though passing through difficult terrain.




I do not choose to add an augment, because the damage is not the primary purpose of the spell at this point, and I don't think messing with the other parameters by upcasting is worthwhile. If I were going to, I'd probably give it a push/pull effect of 5 ft. per upcast slot, active at the end of your turn (for attractive) or the target's turn (for repulsive), just to further emphasize the battlefield control aspect.

[Wryte]

My immediate thought is "Well then it's not really a bolt anymore, is it?"

A simpler fix for the range isdue, I think, would be this change: "The lightning tether breaks if the creature is more than 30 feet away from you or has total cover from you at the end of your turn." This keeps the range relevant, but makes it non-trivial for the target to break it.

The bigger issue, I think, is the garbage scaling. Since only the initial damage and duration increase with upcasting, the damage on subsequent turns doesn't really feel worth the concentration. I would cause each spell level it increases by to add 1d6 (maybe more? Hesitant, since it's guaranteed damage) to the damage, and 5 feet to the range.

[Segev]

My immediate thought is "Well then it's not really a bolt anymore, is it?"

A simpler fix for the range isdue, I think, would be this change: "The lightning tether breaks if the creature is more than 30 feet away from you or has total cover from you at the end of your turn." This keeps the range relevant, but makes it non-trivial for the target to break it.

The bigger issue, I think, is the garbage scaling. Since only the initial damage and duration increase with upcasting, the damage on subsequent turns doesn't really feel worth the concentration. I would cause each spell level it increases by to add 1d6 (maybe more? Hesitant, since it's guaranteed damage) to the damage, and 5 feet to the range.

I think making the tether breakable actually is worse than the lack of damage scaling. Damage over time is a valid tactic.

However, the reimagined witch bolt I proposed is more about single-target BFC, holding someone near you so they can't escape, or punishing somebody for trying to get close to you to give yourself breathing room. The damage is secondary to the positioning.

I think my proposal is as much a "bolt" as the original spell. The lightning-bolt-arc is still there.

[strangebloke]

My immediate thought is "Well then it's not really a bolt anymore, is it?"

A simpler fix for the range isdue, I think, would be this change: "The lightning tether breaks if the creature is more than 30 feet away from you or has total cover from you at the end of your turn." This keeps the range relevant, but makes it non-trivial for the target to break it.

The bigger issue, I think, is the garbage scaling. Since only the initial damage and duration increase with upcasting, the damage on subsequent turns doesn't really feel worth the concentration. I would cause each spell level it increases by to add 1d6 (maybe more? Hesitant, since it's guaranteed damage) to the damage, and 5 feet to the range.

The garbage scaling is a serious problem yeah, I'd say that 1d6 is about right. Using cantrips as a guide, you'd expect your highest level spell slot to deal twice as much damage at level five compared to level 1.

As to the other issue, I changed it to work as follows:

For the duration of this spell, you can make a ranged spell attack as an action. If the spell hits, it deals 1d12 lightning damage to the target. As an action, you may also deal 1d12 lightning to any target that has been hit by this casting of the spell, provided they are within range and not behind total cover.

For each level above first that you cast this spell, this spell deals 1d6 more lightning damage.

[DMThac0]

As to the other issue, I changed it to work as follows:

For the duration of this spell, you can make a ranged spell attack as an action. If the spell hits, it deals 1d12 lightning damage to the target. As an action, you may also deal 1d12 lightning to any target that has been hit by this casting of the spell, provided they are within range and not behind total cover.


So I cast Witch Bolt, and on the first turn roll to hit. On the second turn I roll to hit a different creature, as per the first half of your wording, and then on the third turn I do this again choosing a third target. We're going to assume I hit with all three spell attacks.

According to the second half of the description, on turn 4, I can then deal 1d12 damage to all three targets I successfully hit in the first three rounds. The wording: "...any target that has been hit by this casting of the spell..." opens this up to a lot of play.

I'd change it to "...a target that has been hit by this casting of the spell..." this way it's malleable as to which target you can do damage to, and allows you to maintain it after one target is defeated, if you've hit more than one. Gives the spell a whole lot of versatility but doesn't allow it to hit more than one target at a time.

[strangebloke]

So I cast Witch Bolt, and on the first turn roll to hit. On the second turn I roll to hit a different creature, as per the first half of your wording, and then on the third turn I do this again choosing a third target. We're going to assume I hit with all three spell attacks.

According to the second half of the description, on turn 4, I can then deal 1d12 damage to all three targets I successfully hit in the first three rounds. The wording: "...any target that has been hit by this casting of the spell..." opens this up to a lot of play.

I'd change it to "...a target that has been hit by this casting of the spell..." this way it's malleable as to which target you can do damage to, and allows you to maintain it after one target is defeated, if you've hit more than one. Gives the spell a whole lot of versatility but doesn't allow it to hit more than one target at a time.

Oh yeah, I mean, that was definitely my intent.

[TripleD]

Witch Bolt

30ft. 1d12 damage. Concentration (1 minute)

Lightning shoots from your fingertips. Make an attack roll against a creature within range. On a successful hit the creature takes 1d12 damage and an arc of lightning connects you. On each subsequent turn you may use your action to maintain the arc and deal an additional 1d12 damage.

While the arc is maintained the creature’s speed is halved.

All effect of his spell end of the creature moves out of range of the spell.

At higher levels:
The creature’s speed is reduced by an additional 10 feet for each level above 1 the spell is cast at, to a minimum of 0.

[th3g0dc0mp13x]

My proposal: this allows the spell to be effective and worth casting but is not the absolute best single Target damage in all situations.

Witch Bolt
1st-level evocation
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: 30 feet
Components: V, S, M
Duration: Concentration, up to 1 minute
A beam of crackling, blue energy lances out toward a creature within range, forming a sustained arc of lightning between you and the target. Make a ranged spell attack against that creature. On a hit, the target takes 1d12 lightning damage, and on each of your turns for the duration, you can use your action to deal 1d8 lightning damage to the target automatically. The spell ends if you use your action to do anything else. The spell also ends if the target is outside the spell's range at the end of either your or the targets turn.

At Higher Levels. When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 2nd level or higher, the initial damage increases by 1d12 for each slot level above 1st, and the automatic damage increases by 1d8 for each slot level above 1st.

[Tallytrev813]

OMG, this thread just opened my eyes to how bad Witch Bolt is.

This whole time, i thought the initial Xd12 damage was on each round - wouldnt that fix the spell?


So if you use a level 4 spell slot, rather than doing 4d12 damage and 1d12 on subsequent turn, just make it 4d12 each turn you use your action on it (thats what i thought it was this whole time)

[Wryte]

Witch Bolt

30ft. 1d12 damage. Concentration (1 minute)

Lightning shoots from your fingertips. Make an attack roll against a creature within range. On a successful hit the creature takes 1d12 damage and an arc of lightning connects you. On each subsequent turn you may use your action to maintain the arc and deal an additional 1d12 damage.

While the arc is maintained the creature’s speed is halved.

All effect of his spell end of the creature moves out of range of the spell.

At higher levels:
The creature’s speed is reduced by an additional 10 feet for each level above 1 the spell is cast at, to a minimum of 0.

Still too easy to break cast at 1st. It's a ranged attack, so you're already 5 ft or more away from your target. All they have to do is Dash, and they've broken the spell.

However, as soon as you start upcasting it, it becomes overpowered. A 3rd level slot will immobilize anything with a movement speed of 40 or lower, with no chance to break free unless they have a ranged attack option to try and break concentration with.

[Segev]

I think it's important, at the very least, to have the spell only end if the caster ends his turn more than 30 ft. from the target. This is because having it end when the target moves away, but before the caster can move to catch up, is a bug in the way combat time runs. In real life, what Character T moving away from Character C, then later in the round Character C moving towards Character T, is simulating is T running away from C while C is trying to keep up with T. C chasing T wouldn't have gaps opening and closing the way the round-based mechanics make it seem.

By having the spell only end if C ends more than the spell's range away from T, it allows C to "chase" T in a fashion that indicates T hasn't ever actually gotten further away than the range of the spell, because C has been keeping pace.

[LudicSavant]

To understand how bad Witch Bolt is, you have to understand how the math for it works. Some people seem to labor under the assumption that it deals 6.5 expected DPR on rounds after the first. But that's not really how it works, because that 6.5 damage is dependent on an event that doesn't have 100% probability: Landing the initial bolt on round one. The DPR calculation is less like Magic Missile and more like an all-or-nothing single target Damage Over Time effect that requires you to invest actions for every tick (e.g. even worse than Immolation).

So the real DPR formula is:
Round 1: (hit% * 6.5) + (crit% * 6.5)
Round 2: ((chance Witch Bolt hit on round 1 and remained active into the current round) * 6.5) + ((DPR of whatever you'd use if Witch Bolt wasn't active anymore) * (chance Witch Bolt missed on round 1 or got interrupted))
Round 3+: As round 2, except the chance that Witch Bolt is interrupted typically rises each round.

Which is just plain abysmal.

[Wildarm]

Working on the concept of using the spell as more of a lockdown effect but you need to keep hitting with it. Like getting an improved ray of frost. I feel it's slightly overpowered as a first level spell like this though. Command can do a similar thing but only for 1 round and is a save vs a spell attack. Now command is more versatile so YMMV on balance.

Witch Bolt
1st-level evocation
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: 30 feet
Components: V, S, M
Duration: Concentration, up to 1 minute

When you cast this spell and as an action for the duration of this spell, make a ranged spell attack against a creature. On a hit, the target takes 1d8 lightning damage and it's movement becomes zero until the end of it's next turn.

At Higher Levels. When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 2nd level or higher you can target one additional creature per level

[Segev]

Round 2: ((chance Witch Bolt hit on round 1 and remained active into the current round) * 6.5) + ((DPR of whatever you'd use if Witch Bolt wasn't active anymore) * (chance Witch Bolt missed on round 1 or got interrupted))

Typo here: you probably meant that to be:

((chance Witch Bolt hit on round 1 and remained active into the current round) * 6.5) - ((DPR of whatever you'd use if Witch Bolt wasn't active anymore) * (chance Witch Bolt missed on round 1 or got interrupted))

It is worth noting that at least witch bolt doesn't cost more spell slots after the first round, but if you make "whatever you'd use if witch bolt wasn't active anymore" a Cantrip, you're still not expending anything new on round 2.

So yes, it's quite bad.

Remind me: is witch bolt a save-for-nothing, or a spell attack?

[LudicSavant]

Typo here: you probably meant that to be:

((chance Witch Bolt hit on round 1 and remained active into the current round) * 6.5) - ((DPR of whatever you'd use if Witch Bolt wasn't active anymore) * (chance Witch Bolt missed on round 1 or got interrupted))

There shouldn't be a "-" there. The original version I posted was correct.

It's basically "Damage if Witch Bolt active * probability Witch Bolt is active" + "Damage if Witch Bolt not active * probability Witch Bolt is not active.



Remind me: is witch bolt a save-for-nothing, or a spell attack?

It is a spell attack.

[Dalebert]

Two fixes needed IMHO:

1) it ends if the target is out of range at the end of the CASTER'S turn, so you can chase them.
2) It remains concentration but doesn't use your action to deal damage in following rounds.

If you think that's too good, have it use a bonus action in following rounds.

[opaopajr]

I will need a refresher on the spell, but I thought its supposed design charm (that it failed to meet) was its threat of continued striking.

Easiest fix I would do (in my ignorance of full spell text, since it's not SRD) would be start it at 60' distance and, like Sacred Flame, ignore cover (a.k.a. line of sight). Then each spell slot above 1st adds 30' to its effective range (and possibly another 1d12, if it matters). This makes it a Conc. anchor, but should still leave other spell and weapon options up.

Strong spell? Not really. But it does what you want: make an enemy either run away from you, or attack you in hopes to disrupt Concentration. (Witch Bolt does not keep asking for you to spend your subsequent Actions, does it? That would have to go, too.)

If Conc. is a minute that's 10 rounds, or potentially 10d12... but that is highly unlikely. Nor do I think damage throughput is the point of this spell. I think it's big sell is scaring off nuisances or being a real distraction for a measely 1st lvl spell.

That and I like the idea of a wizard or warlock calmly walking towards a fleeing enemy, a la Pinhead from Hellraiser. :smallcool:

[druid91]

Honestly, forcing them to move or take damage is useful in and of itself.

If they move, your allies get AoO on them. In some cases even preventing movement or triggering booming blade.

[Shuruke]

Simplest fix I can think of would be keep damage d12
Intial and secondary damage increase by d12 with 3,5,7,9 slots

[Segev]

There shouldn't be a "-" there. The original version I posted was correct.

It's basically "Damage if Witch Bolt active * probability Witch Bolt is active" + "Damage if Witch Bolt not active * probability Witch Bolt is not active.Ah, I see what you were doing now. I misparsed that as trying to do a comparison to the damage you could've been doing without wasting the action/spell slot.

It is a spell attack.Thanks for the answer! Like I said, I couldn't remember.


Two fixes needed IMHO:

1) it ends if the target is out of range at the end of the CASTER'S turn, so you can chase them.
2) It remains concentration but doesn't use your action to deal damage in following rounds.

If you think that's too good, have it use a bonus action in following rounds.

Hm. That could be a way to fix it.

Target within 30 ft., spell attack to hit. If it hits, 1d12 damage, +1d12 per upcasting slot. On each subsequent round, you may spend a bonus action to do another d12 to the target if he is within 30 ft. of you. If you do not do this damage on any round, or you lose Concentration, the spell ends.


This encourages you to pursue him to keep him within 30 ft., gives you a chance to do so if he moves away, lets you do other things while giving you a bonus action thing to do, and still ends it when you do something else or he really gets away.

Still might actually be too weak, though: cantrips past level 5 do more than a d12. Though it is a bonus action.

[Doug Lampert]

1) As others have suggested, it ends if the target is out of range at the end of the CASTER'S turn, so you can chase them.
2) The damage on following rounds follows the cantrip progression and is in d12. i.e. a level 3-4 character does 1d12, a level 5-10 character 2d12, a level 11-16 character 3d12, and a level 17+ character 4d12.

The followup damage is replacing a cantrip, and needs to be better than a cantrip, automatic and uses d12 is better than a cantrip. The same progression is fine since it replaces a cantrip.

[MilkmanDanimal]

OMG, this thread just opened my eyes to how bad Witch Bolt is.

This whole time, i thought the initial Xd12 damage was on each round - wouldnt that fix the spell?


So if you use a level 4 spell slot, rather than doing 4d12 damage and 1d12 on subsequent turn, just make it 4d12 each turn you use your action on it (thats what i thought it was this whole time)

Problem would be it then makes that spell insanely good; Witch Bolt gets used by a guest character in Critical Role campaign 1 and they do 5d12 damage round one, and 5d12 in several subsequent rounds, and it instantly would become a spell pretty much everyone would take at that point, as it did crazy damage. Doing it that way seriously breaks the spell in the other direction.

And, yes, it's bad. Witch Bolt lives in a house with True Strike, Find Traps, Weird, and Mordenkainen's Sword. Nobody ever comes to visit that house. Ever, ever, ever.

[TripleD]

Still too easy to break cast at 1st. It's a ranged attack, so you're already 5 ft or more away from your target. All they have to do is Dash, and they've broken the spell.


True, but in that case the enemy has now blown their action. Unless they can Dash as a bonus action, it’s guaranteed one round that, if they are more than 15 feet away from anyone, they won’t be melee attacking.



However, as soon as you start upcasting it, it becomes overpowered. A 3rd level slot will immobilize anything with a movement speed of 40 or lower, with no chance to break free unless they have a ranged attack option to try and break concentration with.

Unless you roll low on the attack roll. In which case your highest level spell slot was just vaporized for nothing.

Also worth noting that by level 5 you’ve started moving past the “fight against one creature that can only melee attack” encounters. You probably will be fighting creatures with flight, ranged attacks, or weaker enemies in groups.

I see my rework as being a more situational, high risk/high reward version of the “Hold” spells. Less generally applicable, but shining in certain scenarios.

[Dalebert]

Still might actually be too weak, though: cantrips past level 5 do more than a d12. Though it is a bonus action.

The idea is you can stack it with cantrip DMG or even higher level spell dmg in following rounds. It's a significant improvement. Does it make it always better than a cantrip? No. But what if you need a ranged lightning attack? There's not a cantrip like that.

[Witty Username]

I have played with the idea of making witch bolt as written a cantrip, with the initial damage scaling like a cantrip (2d12 at 5th etc.). the range and concentration would prevent it from being too overpowering.

Edit: If I kept it at first level I would give it some control thing like knocking prone or halving movement. make them use an action to break the tether.

[Dalebert]

I have played with the idea of making witch bolt as written a cantrip, with the initial damage scaling like a cantrip (2d12 at 5th etc.). the range and concentration would prevent it from being too overpowering.

The automatic dmg in later rounds is too good for a cantrip imho. That would be unprecedented. Cantrips are consistently all or nothing.

On further thought, I think the best fixes would be simple. I'd do two things.

1) Make the range 60 ft.
2) Make the additional dmg in later rounds use a bonus action.
Optional: Make it use a dex save instead of an attack and have it do half dmg on a success and immediately end.

They can still end it immediately by leaving the range, though it's a little harder. They can end it by getting full cover. They can end it by breaking your concentration.

The dmg is still low, but now you can stack it with more dmg in later rounds because it's only using your bonus action. Doing dmg without any action at all seems a bit much for 1st level. Taking your action is crappy considering the low dmg. And 30 feet is just way to short of a distance to be able to break free so easily.

[Kane0]

Witch Bolt
1st Level Evocation

Casting Time: 1 Action
Range: 30 feet
Components: S
Duration: Concentration, up to 1 minute

Make a ranged spell attack against one creature you can see within range. On a hit the target takes 1d12 lightning damage, and on each of your turns for the duration if the target is visible and within range you can use your bonus action to deal 1d12 lightning damage to the target automatically.
At Higher Levels: When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 2nd level or higher, the initial and subsequent damage increases by 1d12 for each slot above 1st.

Spell doesn't just end if the target leaves your range or vision, you can keep concentrating and chase him down on your turn to continue zapping.

Edit: May be better as an action rather than bonus action though, playtesting needed.

[th3g0dc0mp13x]

Witch Bolt
1st Level Evocation

Casting Time: 1 Action
Range: 30 feet
Components: S
Duration: Concentration, up to 1 minute

Make a ranged spell attack against one creature you can see within range. On a hit the target takes 1d12 lightning damage, and on each of your turns for the duration if the target is visible and within range you can use your bonus action to deal 1d12 lightning damage to the target automatically.
At Higher Levels: When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 2nd level or higher, the initial and subsequent damage increases by 1d12 for each slot above 1st.

Spell doesn't just end if the target leaves your range or vision, you can keep concentrating and chase him down on your turn to continue zapping.

Edit: May be better as an action rather than bonus action though, playtesting needed.

Yeah this has to stay an action, having it be a BA allows for this to be more damaging then disentigrate with a 6th level slot. 12d12 for a action +BA is broke, especially with the next turn doing another 6d12.

[thoroughlyS]

This question has come up a couple of times before, and I like to compare it to other damage-over-time spells (e.g. vampiric touch) to see where it went wrong. The two major problems it has are reliability and damage scaling. This spell has so many end conditions that it will practically never last more than one round. The damage is also bad enough that it gets eclipsed by fire bolt at 5th level. Nixing the "outside of range" clause and allowing you to make the attack each turn (instead of only repeating if you hit) vastly improve its reliability. Allowing you to attack different creatures makes it more versatile, and changing the damage scaling give it better career longevity.

Witch Bolt
1st-level evocation

Casting Time: 1 action
Range: 30 feet
Components: V, S, M (a twig from a tree that has been struck by lightning)
Duration: Concentration, up to 1 minute

A beam of crackling, blue energy lances from your outstretched hand. Make a ranged spell attack against a creature within range. On a hit, the target takes 1d12 lightning damage. For the duration, you can repeat the attack as an action. If you target a creature you hit with this attack during your last turn, you automatically hit.
At Higher Levels. When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 2nd level or higher, the damage increases by 1d12 for each slot level above 1st.

[TyGuy]

Drop the subsequent actions required to activate/keep the 1d12 and call it a day. Keep the concentration, range and cover aspects.

[Vogie]

The reason for Witch Bolt's design is layered -

It is meant to work with Warlocks, who try to squeeze the most out of every spell slot
It is meant to work with Sorcerers, who can adjust the range, extend the duration, twin, or reroll the damage of their spells.
Wizard can also use it, but no one cares. As it's an Evocation spell, Evocation wizards will be able to maximize it with their 10th and 14th level features, and war wizards would be able to maintain it whilst using Arcane Deflection and Durable magic


I think Witch Bolt would work best if it was created using the updated mechanics used in SCAG & XGtE - like we see with GFB, the warlock's maddening hex invocation and Mind Spike.

Witch Bolt
Level: 1
Casting time: 1 Action
Range: 40 feet
Components: VSM
Duration: Concentration, up to 1 minute
Make a ranged spell attack against a creature you can see. On a hit, the target takes 1d12 lightning damage and is cursed for the duration. As an action, you deal to the cursed target lightning damage equal either to half of the original damage dealt or your spellcasting modifier, whichever is greater. To use this feature, you must be able to see the cursed target, and it must be within range.

If a feature allows you to cast this spell as a bonus action, you can also use a bonus action to recur the damage for the duration.

At Higher levels: The initial damage increases by 1d12 for each slot level above 1st.


What this design does is it does everything the spell was intending to do, but without the pitfalls. I also bumped the damage by 10 ft. You can only use the additional damage while within range, but the curse lingers as long as you hold concentration. Sorcerers will be able to deal damage to 2 targets with twin, or maintain it as a bonus action if they quickened it, or maintain the ability at 80 ft, or reroll the damage if they roll something lower than their Charisma mod. Warlocks can continue to use it to do potentially more damage than their EBs every turn with a fist full of d12s.

[Malifice]

Scale the secondary damage with spell level.

Done.

[Segev]

Scale the secondary damage with spell level.

Done.
Still useless since you will never see the secondary damage. The target will leave the range on his turn.

[Malifice]

Still useless since you will never see the secondary damage. The target will leave the range on his turn.

Provoking AOO or wasting a full turn disengaging or dashing.

[jas61292]

I've personally always disagreed with a lot if the criticism of this spell. The idea that an enemy would back up out of range and then immediately run back in at the caster would, at my table, typically be seen as metagaming of the highest order. Unless the enemy is intimately familiar with the spell, they should only run away if they intend to stay away. Otherwise, they should prefer to try and break concentration, rather than retreat. While I agree that it could probably use a buff, that's only cause it's effect feels weak, and not cause a metagaming DM can negate it's usefulness.

Personally, if I were to buff it, I'd increase the range to 60 and have it scale better. 1d12 every level for secondary damage is insane, but perhaps scaling the secondary damage at every other level would be a good enough boost.

[Vogie]

Provoking AOO or wasting a full turn disengaging or dashing.

If they have a speed of 30, they can simply walk away. That's why I bumped my version to 40 ft.

[Segev]

Provoking AOO or wasting a full turn disengaging or dashing.


If they have a speed of 30, they can simply walk away. That's why I bumped my version to 40 ft.

Indeed. And even taking an AoO - which requires that you cast this spell under relatively specific circumstances - that's not much worse than an extra d12, and is better than 2d12 under most circumstances (e.g. if you're doing a fix that makes extra damage carry over). Which caps the spell's secondary damage at "one AoO." Hardly worth the upcast of even one level, let alone multiple.

Any fix for witch bolt needs to include at least a clause about the spell not ending unless the caster ends his turn out of range of the target, rather than the spell ending if the target is ever out of range. It could instead simply not end, and reassert itself if they re-enter range of each other, but something along these lines is essential to make the spell worthwhile.

[Yuroch Kern]

Two fixes needed IMHO:

1) it ends if the target is out of range at the end of the CASTER'S turn, so you can chase them.
2) It remains concentration but doesn't use your action to deal damage in following rounds.

If you think that's too good, have it use a bonus action in following rounds.

Yep, that's the fix and keeps it 1st level. 🤘

[Tallytrev813]

Indeed. And even taking an AoO - which requires that you cast this spell under relatively specific circumstances - that's not much worse than an extra d12, and is better than 2d12 under most circumstances (e.g. if you're doing a fix that makes extra damage carry over). Which caps the spell's secondary damage at "one AoO." Hardly worth the upcast of even one level, let alone multiple.

Any fix for witch bolt needs to include at least a clause about the spell not ending unless the caster ends his turn out of range of the target, rather than the spell ending if the target is ever out of range. It could instead simply not end, and reassert itself if they re-enter range of each other, but something along these lines is essential to make the spell worthwhile.

But thats the beauty of it.

I agree with the poster you're replying to. Make all subsequent rounds the same damage as the 1st and it's fixed, easy.


Scale the secondary damage with spell level.

Done.


Yes, there are ways to get away from the spell. The point is not to make a perfect spell. It's a spell that does good damage that, in the right circumstances, can be awesome - but that the enemy has options to mitigate the damage if possible.

Not every enemy can just run out of range. Sometimes you'll find an enemy whos in difficult terrain, or knocked prone, or engaged with a tank who has Sentinel that can drop their speed on an AoO. Sometimes you can position yourself so the enemy has to take 2-4 AoO's to get away. There's ways to work the spell in situationally to make it great, and thats how spells are SUPPOSED to be imo.

[Malifice]

If they have a speed of 30, they can simply walk away. That's why I bumped my version to 40 ft.

Ok. They walk away.

Presuming they aren't threatened by the party meat shield and rogue of course. Because then they have a difficult choice to make indeed.

Even then, you've just made the monster walk away from you 30'. For a d6hd caster wearing a dress for armor, do you want the monster standing next to you?

And yeah, they can walk away and then dash and come back. But that's whole wasted turn.

How much damage does your party deal in a turn? Because the monster takes that. It also doesnt hurt anyone this turn either so you prevent that damage.

Dont get me wrong; Id like it if it restrained the target. But if it did that it would need a save (Str sounds appropriate, repeats at the end of each turn) and the initial and secondary damage should be 1d12 + 1d12 per 2 levels over.

[Tallytrev813]

Ok. They walk away.

Presuming they aren't threatened by the party meat shield and rogue of course. Because then they have a difficult choice to make indeed.

Even then, you've just made the monster walk away from you 30'. For a d6hd caster wearing a dress for armor, do you want the monster standing next to you?

And yeah, they can walk away and then dash and come back. But that's whole wasted turn.

How much damage does your party deal in a turn? Because the monster takes that. It also doesnt hurt anyone this turn either so you prevent that damage.

Dont get me wrong; Id like it if it restrained the target. But if it did that it would need a save (Str sounds appropriate, repeats at the end of each turn) and the initial and secondary damage should be 1d12 + 1d12 per 2 levels over.

I think it becomes too good if it restrains the target. With the damage bump it makes the next move very up in the air and strategic. The monster needs to either come at you and break the concentration - waste a turn getting out of range - or take the damage, and those choices are confounded by a lot of variables (Is he engaged with the Rogue/Barbarian? Will your parties range wreck him? Is someone else a bigger threat?)

It makes the spell more interesting imo

[opaopajr]

OK, I took a look at the original wording of Witch Bolt... :smalleek: That's a lot of work to fix.

First off, it sounds like it wants to be a version of Spirit Weapon, but as a 1st lvl spell. As in, it wants to be extra damage, but also an intimidation factor. That said, starting it at 1st, and giving it upcasting is going to complicate balancing.

Big issues I see is: a) action economy, b) failure distance, and c) managing 1d12 ranged attack spell damage, let alone upcasting.

My first thing would be to increase the initial range. Breaking the spell through distance or total cover is actually a good thing, mitigate it being a low level spell -- but 30' is way too short to pull off a use more than once. That said, I think total cover is still too easy to pull off.

It does need an action economy cost. Bonus Action as Spirit Weapon however might be too strong with Ignoring Cover. Because then you could Dodge or cast other spells where it will become a Teflon Caster (non-stick caster, hard to hit) with thoughtless damage output. I either remove Total Cover restriction or action economy conversion into Bonus Action.

Upcasting is a matter or whether we want this to be a damaging spell or an intimidating (or taunting) spell. The game has more than enough damaging spells, I think. So I want to increase range, which means at some point it won't be worth the spell slot increase. What I could do is after X range (perhaps 3rd or 4th slot) it also switches to a Bonus Action -- but yes, at some point it will not be worth upcasting.

Witch Bolt
Casting Time: 1 Action
Component: VSM
Range: 60'
Duration: Concentration, up to 1 minute

Make a ranged spell attack against a creature you can see. On a hit, the target takes 1d12 lightning damage, and on your turn, you can use your action to deal 1d12 lightning damage to the target. The spell ends if you use your action to do anything else. The spell also ends if the target is ever outside the spell's range.

At Higher Levels: The Range increases by 30' for each slot level above 1st. If you use a spell slot of 4th or higher you can maintain Witch Bolt in subsequent rounds by using your Bonus Action instead (ignore the clause "The spell ends if you use your action to do anything else,").

[Segev]

I'm sorry, but if you want to make AoOs the source of round 2 damage, and the effect break after round 2, then you just have it do that. "The target takes (spell slot level)d12 electricity damage and provokes an AoO." Still not a very good expenditure of a spell slot.

[cajbaj]

I just made Witch Bolt a d8 cantrip. The short range, concentration, and ease to break it make it balanced I feel.

[Tallytrev813]

I'm sorry, but if you want to make AoOs the source of round 2 damage, and the effect break after round 2, then you just have it do that. "The target takes (spell slot level)d12 electricity damage and provokes an AoO." Still not a very good expenditure of a spell slot.

You may be right, but "The target takes (spell slot level)d12 electricity damage and provokes an AoO." is not what the spell does.

[Segev]

You may be right, but "The target takes (spell slot level)d12 electricity damage and provokes an AoO." is not what the spell does.

Then you shouldn't be trying to stealth transform it into that by increasing the post-round-1 damage without doing something about the triviality of leaving the range.

[Tallytrev813]

Then you shouldn't be trying to stealth transform it into that by increasing the post-round-1 damage without doing something about the triviality of leaving the range.

I think you're missing my point. There's plenty of situations in which that would remain useful. Some enemies are slow. Some enemies are slowed by difficult terrain, or knocked prone, or Sentineled to 0 movement, or slowed by a spell/cantrip.

Say the enemy is engaged with your barbarian who has taken Sentinel. Good chance he cannot run out of range now and you can pelt him 3-4 times for 3d12 in a row.

Maybe you're in a 20x20 room and he CANT run out of range. Now what? Hes going to provoke AoO's and still run the risk of not breaking your concentration - in which case you auto-hit with the Xd12 anyway and the team can burn him down, or heal you.

Maybe someone can immobilize him in a cage, there's quite a few ways to continue an auto-hitting Xd12 that make it situationally a great damageing spell IMO

[Potato_Priest]

Witch Bolt
1st-level evocation

Casting Time: 1 action
Range: 30 feet
Components: V, S, M (a twig from a tree that has been struck by lightning)
Duration: Concentration, up to 1 minute

A beam of crackling, blue energy lances out toward a creature within range, forming a sustained arc of lightning between you and the target. Make a ranged spell attack against that creature. On a hit, the target takes 1d12 lightning damage. Until the spell ends, you can make the attack again on each of your turns as an action. If you target a creature you hit on your last turn, the attack automatically hits.
At Higher Levels. When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 2nd level or higher, the damage increases by 1d12 for every slot level above 1st.

This is a brilliant fix! I'd change the wording slightly so that the red section only applies if it's a creature you hit with *this* attack, and I would make the scaling be an extra d12 for every 2 spell levels to prevent it from eclipsing things like call lightning, but the wording you use here is wonderful!

[Segev]

I think you're missing my point. There's plenty of situations in which that would remain useful. Some enemies are slow. Some enemies are slowed by difficult terrain, or knocked prone, or Sentineled to 0 movement, or slowed by a spell/cantrip.

Say the enemy is engaged with your barbarian who has taken Sentinel. Good chance he cannot run out of range now and you can pelt him 3-4 times for 3d12 in a row.

Maybe you're in a 20x20 room and he CANT run out of range. Now what? Hes going to provoke AoO's and still run the risk of not breaking your concentration - in which case you auto-hit with the Xd12 anyway and the team can burn him down, or heal you.

Maybe someone can immobilize him in a cage, there's quite a few ways to continue an auto-hitting Xd12 that make it situationally a great damageing spell IMO

The situational nature of it combined with the low damage output even when the situation works to your favor makes it still far too weak for a 1st level spell. You'd be better off casting Acid Splash or firebolt every round.

[Tallytrev813]

The situational nature of it combined with the low damage output even when the situation works to your favor makes it still far too weak for a 1st level spell. You'd be better off casting Acid Splash or firebolt every round.

I suppose i was thinking if your party had a mechanism to hold a badguy still, you could use a 3rd level slot (for example) and if you hit on the first spell attack, you get a 3d12 auto hit each round as an action. Thats pretty solid i think, maybe not though.

[Wildarm]

Another idea. Make the penalty for not running away severe

Spell lasts 3 rounds. Each round you can sustain the damage the die increases by 1d12.

6d12 damage for 1st level is super strong if you can keep concentration and keep the enemy from moving out of range. Averages 2d12 per round but requires help from another like a grappler or hold person.

[thoroughlyS]

I would make the scaling be an extra d12 for every 2 spell levels to prevent it from eclipsing things like call lightning, but the wording you use here is wonderful!
Even scaling at each level, it doesn't eclipse call lightning, because that hits multiple targets and does half damage on a miss.

[Potato_Priest]

Even scaling at each level, it doesn't eclipse call lightning, because that hits multiple targets and does half damage on a miss.

Dealing half damage on a miss is worse than never missing after the first hit, but I take your point about the aoe potential.