Fixing Barkskin?

[Great Dragon]

Awhile back in a Druid's thread I can no longer easily find, several members complained about Barkskin being too limited for Druids.

Mostly because of the concentration requirement.
To me, the 3rd level Druid being able to be a Rat with an AC 16 was impressive.

But, I can up with:

Barkskin
2nd Level Transmutation.
Components: V,S,M.
Range: Touch.
Duration: 6 hours.

Grants AC 16 regardless of armor worn.
(The recipient's Dexterity modifier applies.)
(No concentration needed.)

Material Component: A figurine of a tree made of that type of wood, valuing 50 gold pieces.
(Normally not consumed)

Notes: While this is potent compared to Mage Armor in that it gives 3 more points of AC, it is a 2nd level spell. I also reduced the Duration so that getting a full 24 hours of protection could not be gotten. Since it would take 4 castings to get. In order to get the full benefits of a Long Rest, this could really only be used twice a day. Math!

Dawn - cast. 6 hrs
Noon - cast. 6 hrs.
Dusk - sleep 8 hrs (total of 20 hours)

Q: Would a Treant's Amulet (Rare) requiring Attunement and granting Natural Armor of 14 be ok? While anyone can use the Amulet: Would allowing the AC to transfer to a Druid's Wild Shape - be too much?

*******
Let the brewing begin!!

[Man_Over_Game]

I kinda like it. I'm all for making Druids a Gish option, and this is a definite step in the right direction for that.

Metamagic, tho. Not the worst thing in the world, if you gave it to yourself and a friend at the cost of 2 Sorcerer levels and 2 Sorcerer points (the value of a level 1 spell slot).

I would definitely not include the target's Dexterity modifier, though. It doesn't mesh well with the idea of Barkskin, and it really pushes towards a biased build. Make it increase AC by +1 (might make some Druid/Barbarian Multiclass really happy), but don't add the Dex mod. 17 AC is just enough to make a lot of people want it, but not enough that everyone will take it.

[Great Dragon]

Thanks, MoG!!
Humm. No Dex? Ok.

Should there be any changes for Upcasting?
How about +1 AC per 3 levels over 2nd level (max AC 18)
And/or
Maybe: "can affect one additional willing creature per slot above 2nd level"?
(Max 8)

[Unoriginal]

That's way too good for a 2nd level spell, IMO.


I don't see anything to fix with Barkski.


That Treant's Amulet sounds nice, if the effect is a flat AC 14 where the DEX mod does not apply.

[Sigreid]

Clearly the barkskin spell should cover the caster in magic mouths that yip incessantly.

[Man_Over_Game]

Thanks, MoG!!
Humm. No Dex? Ok.

Should there be any changes for Upcasting?
How about +1 AC per 3 levels over 2nd level (max AC 18)
And/or
Maybe: "can affect one additional willing creature per slot above 2nd level"?

I think the targeting an extra creature per level *might* work fine? Or you can make it upgrade its duration with upcasting.

Hmm....on second thought, I'm not sure if 17 AC is the right value if upcasting is an option, period. Maybe you were right to go with 16, as that opens up a lot of options for growth. I can just imagine a lot of high level casters making this an autopick, because of the abundance of slots they have.

[Great Dragon]

That's way too good for a 2nd level spell, IMO.


I don't see anything to fix with Barkski.
If you were to allow 1 hour duration with "no concentration" what would you change?


That Treant's Amulet sounds nice, if the effect is a flat AC 14 where the DEX mod does not apply.

Right. No Dex.

@MoG: Is AC 18 too much, even for a 9th level slot?

perhaps 1 +1 creature and 1 hour +1 Hour per Level over 2nd?
Max: 8 Creatures and 8 hours.

Perhaps the material component is consumed?

The Druid/BarBearian is potent, but they are giving up Beast Spells and Archdruid. Plus, would only have one 9th level slot at 20th level.


Clearly the barkskin spell should cover the caster in magic mouths that yip incessantly.

ROFLMAO!!!!!

[MaxWilson]

I would definitely not include the target's Dexterity modifier, though. It doesn't mesh well with the idea of Barkskin, and it really pushes towards a biased build. Make it increase AC by +1 (might make some Druid/Barbarian Multiclass really happy), but don't add the Dex mod. 17 AC is just enough to make a lot of people want it, but not enough that everyone will take it.

I dislike the "target's AC can't be less than 16" language because it's confusing what that physically means in practice for shields, total cover, etc. As long as we're messing with Barkskin, I'd vote for making it an 8-hour non-concentration spell which thickens your bones and flesh, gives you a treant-like appearance, and grants you a natural armor of 14 while decreasing your Dex to no more than 10 (you've now got the reflexes of a very nimble tree).

[Rukelnikov]

To fix it, first we must decide which part is the problem.

Is the armor value too low? If so, then 100 AC would make it a viable spell, then there's a point where armor value could be enough to make it viable. Sadly which number is that would likely never be agreed upon.

Is concentration the problem? If so what would happen if the spell was concentration free? As Moon Druid flat 16 AC concentration free sounds awesome. One hour is a pretty long duration, but it rides upon spending another resource (wild shape) so I don't think it would be a problem.

Is the problem that it's too niche? This is the hardest one to fix though, since if you make it a stacking AC buff you are essentially making a Druid version of Shield of Faith, and since they are different spells they would stack, leading to a possibly broken low lvl combo (Barkskin + SoF).

[Great Dragon]

@MaxWilson: I've always read that as only applying to the Armor slot, where Shield and Cover are different bonuses. (Like the AC bonuses of shield and the Shield spell can stack) I'd also say that a Cloak/Ring of Protection is added to AC.

Not sure if that's RAW/RAI, though.

@Rukelnikov:
I don't think that the AC is too low.
I mean the equal of Chainmail is pretty decent even at high Tiers.

Not sure if it's too niche.

I believe that the concentration was the real complaint, since being hit and failing the Con Save means that the spell just vanished.

[Rukelnikov]

@MaxWilson: I've always read that as only applying to the Armor slot, where Shield and Cover are different bonuses. (Like the AC bonuses of shield and the Shield spell can stack) I'd also say that a Cloak/Ring of Protection is added to AC.

Not sure if that's RAW/RAI, though.

RAW is somewhat unclear. But I think RAI it doesn't work like that.

Yup, RAI it only makes it so your AC can never be below 16, AC = Max(16, your final AC for the current attack)

https://mobile.twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/557810947885379585?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5E tweetembed&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fd-14088926554021344200.ampproject.net%2F190502182742 0%2Fframe.html

[Sigreid]

@MaxWilson: I've always read that as only applying to the Armor slot, where Shield and Cover are different bonuses. (Like the AC bonuses of shield and the Shield spell can stack) I'd also say that a Cloak/Ring of Protection is added to AC.

Not sure if that's RAW/RAI, though.

I read it as you calculate your armor class as normal and if it's less than 16, it's 16 instead. It just sets a floor with no other modifications. It's a potentially huge benefit when a druid is in their animal forms though.

[MaxWilson]

I read it as you calculate your armor class as normal and if it's less than 16, it's 16 instead. It just sets a floor with no other modifications.

But that's the problem--shields and partial cover both by giving you a bonus to your AC. In what world does it make sense that a Barkskinned druid behind 3/4 cover and a Barkskinned druid standing in the open are equally easy to hit with a thrown dart? That's the RAW on Barkskin but I dislike it.

I haven't bothered making a houserule for Barkskin because it's so worthless that it's irrelevant, but if I were fixing it to make it worthwhile I'd want to fix it to make sense at the same time.


It's a potentially huge benefit when a druid is in their animal forms though.

Eh... "huge" as in "might save you 10-20 HP before you lose concentration" maybe.

Mage Armor grants a similar AC (AC 14-15) but it doesn't wear off as soon as you take a few hits. For instance, Mage Armor + Air elemental = AC 17, and it lasts for 8 hours.

Say I'm a 3rd level druid fighting orcs in Brown Bear form. Barkskin turns my AC 11 into AC 16, so the orcs will hit me 50% of the time instead of 75% of the time. That means Barkskin is "saving" me from about 1 hit in every 4, roughly 2 HP of damage per orc per round. But each time they do hit me, I make a DC 10 concentration save or lose it, and I lose it 30% of the time. So the spell is going to fail after I take about 3 hits, which happens after the orcs have made about 6 attacks total, and in that time it will have saved me from about one and a half attacks.

That's a best case for the druid too, because Barkskin is ideal for brown bears (glass cannons with low Dex). When you're looking at something like a Giant Constrictor instead, Mage Armor is vastly superior to Barkskin, and even just ignoring Barkskin and spending your concentration on Spike Growth or something is usually better. (Not to mention Healing Spirit, blech.)

Edit: to be fair, Barkskin is a better buddy-buff than self-buff. If you've got a squishy AC 10 wizard in your party somehow, Barkskin on the squishy wizard could actually be worth casting.

[Sigreid]

Well, that's how it reads to me and my group so that is how we play it. I think the intention is for it to not replace a decent suit of armor. And magic doesn't care about logic sometimes.

[Great Dragon]

But that's the problem--shields and partial cover both by giving you a bonus to your AC. In what world does it make sense that a Barkskinned druid behind 3/4 cover and a Barkskinned druid standing in the open are equally easy to hit with a thrown dart? That's the RAW on Barkskin but I dislike it.
I’m trying to understand how that works RAW.

The spell says: “AC can't be less than 16. Which I would take it to mean (RAI) that any Armor that gives an AC score below that, is overridden. I could even understand that the Barkskin has no effect on any AC over 16 - like from Unarmored Defense, and any Armor above Chainmail. The spell doesn't say “can't exceed AC 16 by any means”, which would mean that things like a shield, any kind of cover, or other bonuses to AC are ignored.
****
Um. Mage Armor is 13+ Dex mod.
Bracers of Armor is AC 12+ Dex.

Which is what I was using as a reference for my Barkskin changes.


Say I'm a 3rd level druid fighting orcs in Brown Bear form. Barkskin turns my AC 11 into AC 16, so the orcs will hit me 50% of the time instead of 75% of the time. That means Barkskin is "saving" me from about 1 hit in every 4, roughly 2 HP of damage per orc per round. But each time they do hit me, I make a DC 10 concentration save or lose it, and I lose it 30% of the time. So the spell is going to fail after I take about 3 hits, which happens after the orcs have made about 6 attacks total, and in that time it will have saved me from about one and a half attacks.

That's a best case for the druid too, because Barkskin is ideal for brown bears (glass cannons with low Dex). When you're looking at something like a Giant Constrictor instead, Mage Armor is vastly superior to Barkskin, and even just ignoring Barkskin and spending your concentration on Spike Growth or something is usually better. (Not to mention Healing Spirit, blech.)

Edit: to be fair, Barkskin is a better buddy-buff than self-buff. If you've got a squishy AC 10 wizard in your party somehow, Barkskin on the squishy wizard could actually be worth casting.


Well, Brown Bear form is only really available for Moon Druid at Level Three. All others have to wait until level 8, and get both Swimming and Flying types. The Moon could be a Giant Scorpion (AC 15), and not even really need to use Barkskin on themselves at this point!!

With my version allowing that 8th level Druid to affect up to 3 creatures with Barkskin that lasts for 3 hours with no concentration, instead of just the Character with no Armor and no Dex for one hour, and the moment the Druid gets hit and fails the save, it's gone!

[MaxWilson]

I’m trying to understand how that works RAW.

The spell says: “AC can't be less than 16. Which I would take it to mean (RAI) that any Armor that gives an AC score below that, is overridden. I could even understand that the Barkskin has no effect on any AC over 16 - like from Unarmored Defense, and any Armor above Chainmail. The spell doesn't say “can't exceed AC 16 by any means”, which would mean that things like a shield, any kind of cover, or other bonuses to AC are ignored.
****
Um. Mage Armor is 13+ Dex mod.
Bracers of Armor is AC 12+ Dex.

Which is what I was using as a reference for my Barkskin changes.

I don't understand the question. I didn't say anything about Bracers of Armor at all, and I didn't mention Mage Armor in the section you quoted about the weirdness of Barkskin (as opposed to the weakness of Barkskin). Here's what I meant:

AC 10 druid casts Barkskin. He's now AC max(10,16) = AC 16.

Now he stands behind 3/4 cover (looking through an arrow slit at kobolds throwing darts at him). 3/4 cover grants a +5 AC bonus, so he's now AC max(10+5,16) = 16. I dislike that partial cover isn't protecting him at all.

If you just make Barkskin grant natural armor 14 while capping Dex at 10 until the spell wears off, then he can stand behind the arrow slit and have AC 19, or AC 14 out in the open. (He can also use a shield and have AC 21/16.) To me that seems a more reasonable way to model turning yourself partly into a tree for protection.


Well, Brown Bear form is only really available for Moon Druid at Level Three. All others have to wait until level 8, and get both Swimming and Flying types. The Moon could be a Giant Scorpion (AC 15), and not even really need to use Barkskin on themselves at this point!!

If you pick something besides Brown Bear, Barkskin gets worse. If the 4th level Shepherd Druid wants to turn himself into an AC 14 Giant Poisonous Snake, now AC 16 Barkskin only saves him from 1 attack in every 10 instead of 1 in 4, and he loses concentration more easily--and Mage Armor would now boost him to AC 17. Brown Bear is about as good as it gets for Barkskin, and even there it isn't great.

I am therefore totally cool with improving it, as I have said repeatedly. I think your changes are fine. Getting AC 18 out of 8th level Barkskin is definitely not overpowered or gamebreaking.

[Rukelnikov]

I’m trying to understand how that works RAW.

The spell says: “AC can't be less than 16. Which I would take it to mean (RAI) that any Armor that gives an AC score below that, is overridden. I could even understand that the Barkskin has no effect on any AC over 16 - like from Unarmored Defense, and any Armor above Chainmail. The spell doesn't say “can't exceed AC 16 by any means”, which would mean that things like a shield, any kind of cover, or other bonuses to AC are ignored.

There an answer to the question in the SAC, and indeed it ignores shield, cover etc.


Um. Mage Armor is 13+ Dex mod.
Bracers of Armor is AC 12+ Dex.

Which is what I was using as a reference for my Barkskin changes.

Bracers of Armor is not AC 12 + Dex, its +2 to AC as long as you are not wearing armor or using a shield. Its a big difference since Monks and Barbarians can combine it with their unarmored defense, and a Moon Druid could choose for its form to wear them (with DM approval)



With my version allowing that 8th level Druid to affect up to 3 creatures with Barkskin that lasts for 3 hours with no concentration, instead of just the Character with no Armor and no Dex for one hour, and the moment the Druid gets hit and fails the save, it's gone!

IMO removing concentration is enough, but if you wanna expand upon its duration maybe do something like Hex/Hunters Mark, 4th lvl makes it last 8 hours, 6th lvl makes it last 24 hours. (maybe 5th and 7th, unsure)

[Zuras]

IMO removing concentration is enough, but if you wanna expand upon its duration maybe do something like Hex/Hunters Mark, 4th lvl makes it last 8 hours, 6th lvl makes it last 24 hours. (maybe 5th and 7th, unsure)

The concentration is definitely the problem. I would expand the duration like a mix of Hex and Bestow Curse. 3rd level is concentration, 8 hours, 4th level is no concentration, 8 hours.

If that still seems weak after playtesting, just drop the concentration requirement altogether.

[Great Dragon]

There an answer to the question in the SAC, and indeed it ignores shield, cover etc.
Yes, that's part of what was trying to be fixed.


Bracers of Armor is not AC 12 + Dex, its +2 to AC as long as you are not wearing armor or using a shield. Its a big difference since Monks and Barbarians can combine it with their unarmored defense, and a Moon Druid could choose for its form to wear them (with DM approval)
Huh. Ok. Need more research.


IMO removing concentration is enough, but if you wanna expand upon its duration maybe do something like Hex/Hunters Mark, 4th lvl makes it last 8 hours, 6th lvl makes it last 24 hours. (maybe 5th and 7th, unsure)


The concentration is definitely the problem. I would expand the duration like a mix of Hex and Bestow Curse. 3rd level is concentration, 8 hours, 4th level is no concentration, 8 hours.

If that still seems weak after playtesting, just drop the concentration requirement altogether.

I like the 2nd slot for 1 hour, 4th slot for 8 hrs, and 6th slot for 24 hrs.

I'd still like to have no Concentration and also keep +1 Creature/slot over 2nd.


*****
From my understanding, the main problem here is: DM interpretation of the spells.

5e made where armor categories don't add together, like 3.x D&D did.

Armor is one category.
(Physical Armor, Mage Armor, Natural Armor are all the same category, and don't add together).

“Shield” is still counted as a different category (to me, Physical shields and the Shield spell are the same category),
Ring/Cloak of Protection (Deflection) is another category.
Shield of Faith's +2 AC might be “Divine” category.


*****
Here's how I picture this working:
AC 10 Moon Druid casts Barkskin on themselves.
AC changes from 10 to a base of (Natural Armor) 16.

While in Humanoid form, they can use shield to get AC 18. If Druid then gets behind 3/4 cover, now has AC 23.

Now, Druid shifts to Brown Bear (AC 11) and still has AC 16, base. No shield, but cover can apply.

I'm failing to understand how changing into any other Creature makes Barkskin worse. Say, Shepard Druid with Barkskin shifts into a Squirrel, is now a Tiny sized Animal with an AC 16!! I do understand that because Size doesn't add to AC, the odds of being hit are still the same.
Even your Snake example still goes up 2 AC points. And Scorpion would only go up by 1 AC point.
I suppose the fact that the Squirrel’s HP being less than the Bear's might be what some people have an issue with.
But, mostly I saw a lot of “Lose AC if concentration is broken” complaints.

Casting Barkskin on the base AC 12 Rogue might actually hinder them, since if they had a high Dex (Studded Leather Armor +5 Dex = AC 17), they now can't use it, and are stuck at AC 16.
(To me, a one point difference is not really that big of a deal)

As stated, Mage Armor gives AC 13, (PHB pg 256: This is the base AC. Stops working if any armor is put on, or if it is dismissed as an Action) so does not add to any other base source of Armor.
So, Mage Armor does not add to Barkskin, or any Armor.

Shield spell, on the other hand does say +5 to AC, so if the Druid has the Magic Initiate feat with Shield spell, they could Barkskin for base 16 AC, use Shield spell for 23, and get behind 3/4 cover for AC 28.
Plus, use the Dodge Action to give Disadvantage!

Players should not be punished for being smart.
Smart DMs will already know what in the Environment can be used for Cover.
(But then, I don't allow a +3 shield to be added to the +5 Shield spell, because they are the same category.
And getting +10 to AC is just too much)
(I suppose that some DMs won't allow any change to the AC 16: Because of Bounded Accuracy)

So, I'm stating that for my version of Barkskin, the Natural Armor is base with everything else adding to that, so that there is less confusion.


*****
Plus, as DM, I have my own solution(s) to the above High AC situations. 😝

[Nagog]

Thanks, MoG!!
Humm. No Dex? Ok.

Should there be any changes for Upcasting?
How about +1 AC per 3 levels over 2nd level (max AC 18)
And/or
Maybe: "can affect one additional willing creature per slot above 2nd level"?
(Max 8)

I'd say that if you want to cast Barkskin with an 8th level spell slot, it should make you far tankier than a decent rogue with studded leather. I'd reduce that to +1 AC for every 2 levels above 2nd, maxing out at 19 AC at 18th level.

[Vogie]

I'd say that if you want to cast Barkskin with an 8th level spell slot, it should make you far tankier than a decent rogue with studded leather. I'd reduce that to +1 AC for every 2 levels above 2nd, maxing out at 19 AC at 18th level.

I'd do the same. I may also include the super-rider "If you use a 9th level spell slot, the spell lasts until it is dispelled. Using a spell slot of 5th level or higher grants a duration that doesn’t require concentration" from Bestow Curse

[Great Dragon]

@Nagog Increased AC is ok.

@Vogie
But, that last might be a bit much, since then the spell could be considered "permanent until dispelled" with that wording.

I'd rather give out a Magical Item that gave AC 19/20 (Legendary) with Attunement
(Spellcaster?)

I can deal with the Spell having a 24 hour duration, since that can be a Resource choice for higher level Slots.


Vogie "Using a spell slot of 5th level or higher grants a duration that doesn’t require concentration" from Bestow Curse

IDK. A lot of my groups have New Players, and I'd rather have it where Barkskin starts with no concentration to reduce possible confusion if they go to another Game.
I do try to make sure that the Players know what is in the Books, and what/why I've changed. That way, if the other DM is keeping Concentration, the Players can easily adjust.

Making too many conditional changes can be more difficult to remember, even for the DM - who is usually busy keeping track of multiple Monsters and related information: and adding different spell changes can get forgetten.

[Korhal]

I think Barkskin would have been better if the concentration element would have been removed and the duration increased, by how much I don't know. Maybe an upcast to target more people. It is often compared to Mage Armor which is a level 1 spell, last 8 hours, no concentration, and potentially provides more AC if the target has 18 or more Dex. Giving a Druid a support spell that they could cast on more party members would be nice if you don't have any Wizards or other in the party. While it is already situational considering most characters probably have 16 or more AC already.

I think Barkskin just somehow fell into the (Let's make everything concentration) paradigm.

[Great Dragon]

@Korhal:
I agree that getting rid of concentration for Barkskin is good; and that increasing the duration is hard to figure out. The idea that I started with might be a bit much. (See below)

While 5e spells are more potent in some ways, there is usually a limitation as well.
Especially for Lower Level spells.

And I know that Concentration was put in place to stop Players "stacking" Magical benefits/bonuses.
Fly + Invisibility, etc.

But unlike Mages, I haven't seen anything that really "adds" to Barkskin AC, like Mirror Image, Blur, Blink, etc.


****
While comparing Barkskin to Mage Armor is normal, it's only partly effective. Instead of comparing the AC bonus difference between the two spells, instead I compare what non-magical armor each is equal to.

Mage Armor is only one point above Studded Leather/Hide Armor. Plus, Mages never get above AC 24, even with Mage Armor, max +5 Dex, Ring/Cloak of Protection, and Shield spell (for that round, 4x day,). AC 25, if the DM allows the Staff of Power AC bonus.

Now, Barkskin equals Chain Mail for an hour.
With no Weight/Encumbrance cost.
Even left like that, no concentration is potent.

While the Druid can easily match that AC 16 with Hide Armor +2 Dex and a shield. Which means that they only use Barkskin for being in Wild Shape forms. Or, in the rare event of someone losing their Armor and shield.

But then, I also don't really see a problem with allowing a shield to add to Barkskin AC. Since even then, the AC doesn't go above 18, not counting Cover.

To compare: the Fighter/Paladin can easily get AC 21 (Plate + shield + Defense Style) around the time that the Druid is really using Barkskin. (about 5th level)


*****
The suggestion of "longer duration with higher slot". I don't see a problem with allowing 8 hours with a 4th Level slot, and 24 hours with a 6th level slot.
4 hours with a 4th level Slot; 8 hours with a 6th level Slot; and 24 hours with a 8th level slot.

Now, one thing that occurred to me is that with longer Durations, the Druid can be very potent in Wildshape - since this renews with a Short Rest.

Imagine a Moon Druid being able to be in Brown Bear (at least) form with AC 16 nearly literally all day! But, even being able to shift into and out of the form of a cat (or dove) with AC 16 (and not lose that in Humanoid form) is still impressive.

Edit: the above Duration changes might be better, since it does represent the Power of higher Druid levels, and needing to sacrifice a very high level spell makes the Player really think before doing that.
"24 hr Barkskin or Fire Storm, today?"

But, I really don't have a Playtesting Group.


***
As for being able to affect more than one creature, as you said - pretty much everyone in the Party is at least AC 16, even at 3rd level. (Unless Standard Array or Point Buy was used)

Which means that the Druid would be trying to place Barkskin on Conjured Creatures.
I'm pretty sure that would cause some problems.


Now, I did change the Material Component to being a 50 gp oak figurine carved into an Oak Tree.

For my games, I'm thinking about having where the components are consumed.

But, I think that most Players would be unhappy to have to effectively pay 50 gp every time they cast the spell.

So, I'm trying for all similar spells:
"Roll 1d6 and on a 1, the components are consumed", so that while there is a chance to lose the components, it's not super expensive.

[Great Dragon]

Man_Over_Game
Caused me to realize a possible problem.

Multiclassing:
(1) Would Unarmored Defense add to Barkskin, if Dex is allowed?

Without access to magic (+3) Armor and Shields and a Ring of Protection, the base Fighter is way behind.
And even with these items, they are one point behind.

The base Barbarian and Monk classes are left in the dust, unless allowed to obtain and use Tomes and Manuals to increase Dex, and Con/Wis beyond 20.

(2) Or does Barkskin act like Heavy Armor and Dex (and Wis/Con) was not being allowed?


******
Now, I do want to give some benefits to the base Druid (and possibly the Ranger) for AC above 16. Especially going against CR 17+ Legendary Monsters.

But, I also don't want too much cheese with Multiclassing.

Edit: I'm thinking #2.
But, would you think Upcasting should increase AC? If so, would you stop at (base) AC 18?
Say, a 5th level slot?

Or would you go all the way to AC 20?
Maybe with a 7th level slot?

Increased Durations?

Additional Creatures affected?

I could see the Player having to choose between Upcast options, especially since Additional Creatures is rarely needed for Party members.
If allowed, would Summoned Creatures count?



Barkskin 16 base +2 shield + (5) Dex + (5) Wis/Con +1 from Ring of Protection = AC 29 max.

Regular Monk 10 + (5) Dex + +5) Wis +1 from Ring of Protection

18 plate (+3 magic) + 2 shield (+3 magic) + 1 Defense Style +1 from Ring of Protection
= 28 max.

Suggestions?

[Segev]

The way almost all armor class abilities are written, they specify the whole formula you use if you’re using them. If you qualify for multiple, you can pick any to use, but they can’t combine.

[BerzerkerUnit]

I have never seen the spell interpreted in any way other than “Your Druid is now wearing chainmail but without the down sides.”

So if you have a shield, AC is 18. If you have cover, +2/+5, Shield of Faith +2, etc.

It functions in all ways like a cross between mage armor and chainmail. Since Bracers of Defense factor Dex they’re ignored unless you have a +5 Dex in which case you didn’t cast this anyway.

It’s clearly for Wild Shapes with low ACs and if concentration is a concern you’d take Warcaster or bank on the form’s big Con bonus.

Been a while since I read it since generally, concentrating on moonbeam or spike growth was a better investment. But I doubt my interpretation is wrong since I’ve seen it so widely applied.

[Great Dragon]

BerzerkerUnit
Thanks.

I have seen arguments for not allowing anything to add to the Barkskin's AC.

I'm still working on whether or not to remove the Concentration for Barkskin.

I totally understand players hating suddenly losing their AC when failing their Con check after being hit.

No Concentration for an hour isn't really a big deal for me. It's when the Duration is increased that it might become a problem.

I'm still not sure why the Devs made Barkskin a Concentration tax. Maybe because they felt that AC 16 being rather high when compared to Mage Armor AC 13?

[Segev]

I have never seen the spell interpreted in any way other than “Your Druid is now wearing chainmail but without the down sides.”

So if you have a shield, AC is 18. If you have cover, +2/+5, Shield of Faith +2, etc.

It functions in all ways like a cross between mage armor and chainmail. Since Bracers of Defense factor Dex they’re ignored unless you have a +5 Dex in which case you didn’t cast this anyway.

It’s clearly for Wild Shapes with low ACs and if concentration is a concern you’d take Warcaster or bank on the form’s big Con bonus.

Been a while since I read it since generally, concentrating on moonbeam or spike growth was a better investment. But I doubt my interpretation is wrong since I’ve seen it so widely applied.


BerzerkerUnit
Thanks.

I have seen arguments for not allowing anything to add to the Barkskin's AC.

I'm still working on whether or not to remove the Concentration for Barkskin.

I totally understand players hating suddenly losing their AC when failing their Con check after being hit.

No Concentration for an hour isn't really a big deal for me. It's when the Duration is increased that it might become a problem.

I'm still not sure why the Devs made Barkskin a Concentration tax. Maybe because they felt that AC 16 being rather high when compared to Mage Armor AC 13?


You touch a willing creature. Until the spell ends, the target’s skin has a rough, bark-like appearance, and the target’s AC can’t be less than 16, regardless of what kind of armor it is wearing.

Barkskin (http://5e.d20srd.org/srd/spells/barkskin.htm) very clearly states that it sets a minimum for the target's AC. It doesn't say anything that increases AC starts at that minimum.

If you have 20 Dex and a shield and are under the effects of barkskin, your AC is 17 (10+dex mod+shield). If you drop your shield (normally a -2 to AC), your AC drops to 16, because it can't be lower than that. If you suffer a -10 to Dexterity, you still have 16 AC, because of barkskin. But it does not let you add your +5 Dex Mod and your +2 Shield Mod to the base of 16. That's not how you calculate your AC.

The text is clear: all barkskin does is set a minimum. It doesn't change the base from 10 (or whatever armor you're wearing).

[Great Dragon]

@Segev: Thanks!!!
I really do wish they'd put these kind of Explainations in the descriptions!!!

Ok, let's see if I got this right.

10 +5 Dex +2 shield +5 cover = 22.
Removing Dex, shield or cover (or all) does not cause lower than AC 16 with Barkskin.

It looks like Cover only adds to the "Regular" AC calculations, since Barkskin only prevents the AC from being less than 16.
Ie: not AC 16 + 2/5 cover.


****
A high level Druid being able to have a long lasting Barkskin (without Concentration) while Shifting into and out of various Animal Forms during the day, is totally believable to me.

I'm the only one?

[BerzerkerUnit]

Again, a 2nd level slot and concentration for 1 better than what your basic equipment gives you at level one is so far below the mark, and the notion that you have to track your normal value and barkskin value because the two might interactidifferently with cover is clock meltingly absurd.

It also specifically mentions worn armor, which does not account for shield or cover, ergo, the target’s AC (regardless of armor) is 16. Strap on a shield, it’s going to get the shield’s bonus. Stand behind a tree, get the cover bonus. Do both, get both bonuses, but I’m inclined to believe the absence of further clarification boils down to (if your tank is naked, do this, or do it while wild shaped.

If there were any even remotely common mechanic to reduce a target’s AC (of which there are none), I might think setting an AC floor and nothing more was a valid interpretation. If that was the case than this is some mechanical atavism that squeezed through into print.

[Great Dragon]

The part where most 1st level Druids can "buy" a 14 Dex, get Hide Armor, a shield* (starting wealth 20 gp average) and match a 2nd level spell, is kinda my point for why the Barkskin's AC 16 should be counted as base.

(*I mean 2 gp for a Quarterstaff? Really?

Not being able to afford the 20 gp for armor and shield, plus 25 gp for a Scimitar, and 10 gp for the Explorers Pack (57 gp total for everything), without nearly max starting wealth, I can understand)

Basically, like BerzerkerUnit said, it's basically Chainmail without penalty.
Where shield should still add.

I tend to count Cover as it's own thing.

If it's not, then I tend to agree that it is very time consuming to keep track of both.

And Barkskin is neigh useless outside of Wild Shape (and the rare case of naked ally)

IME: 9th+ level Moon Druids find Barkskin useless.
******
So, even if the Druid gets +3 Hide and +3 shield they max out at AC 22.

But, even with +5 Dex and +3 Studded Leather, the Rogue's AC is 20. (AC 17 without Magic)

Even if they somehow get +5 Dex, both Sorcerer and Wizard are stuck with AC 18 at best, with a +5 Shield boost a few times a day.
Bracers of Armor is (12+Dex) AC 17: With Ring of Protection and Staff of Power granting an AC bonus of 1 each? (AC 19)

Without magic items: Spending (at least) a 1st level slot for AC 13 (+5 Dex) for 8 hours every day.

Draconic Sorcerer can match AC 13 from scales +Dex, so don't need Bracers of Armor.

(Better AC is why there are so many Fighter 2/Wizard X and (non-Draconic) Soradins, with some extra slots for either Smite {usually} or AoE/CC/Utility spells as a bonus)

The Hexblade is rocking out with AC 25.
(AC 17 without Magic)

The Heavy Armor Cleric is AC 26
(AC 20 without Magic)

And the "AC Rulers" are Fighter/Paladin with 27.
(AC 21 without Magic)

But then, even these high ACs aren't much Protection against +16 -> to hit from CR 17+ monsters...

And since I didn't expect the original 2nd level spell to compete, I was willing to give Barkskin a base of AC 20 with a higher level spell slot.
Even with a +3/2 shield and +1 Ring, still has the Tanks being "AC Rulers".


******
For those AC vs DPR experts: would the loss of an 8th level spell slot be enough to "justify" AC 20 for, say, 24 hours still be alright?
If not: 12 hours? 8 hours?

Assuming the usual 6-10 CR appropriate Encounters per day.

(No Concentration still needs to be addressed)

[Segev]

Again, a 2nd level slot and concentration for 1 better than what your basic equipment gives you at level one is so far below the mark, and the notion that you have to track your normal value and barkskin value because the two might interactidifferently with cover is clock meltingly absurd.

It also specifically mentions worn armor, which does not account for shield or cover, ergo, the target’s AC (regardless of armor) is 16. Strap on a shield, it’s going to get the shield’s bonus. Stand behind a tree, get the cover bonus. Do both, get both bonuses, but I’m inclined to believe the absence of further clarification boils down to (if your tank is naked, do this, or do it while wild shaped.

If there were any even remotely common mechanic to reduce a target’s AC (of which there are none), I might think setting an AC floor and nothing more was a valid interpretation. If that was the case than this is some mechanical atavism that squeezed through into print.This is the Homebrew subforum, so yes, we can discuss how to change it. But as written, there is no other valid interpretation of the text. "You touch a willing creature. Until the spell ends, the target’s skin has a rough, bark-like appearance, and the target’s AC can’t be less than 16, regardless of what kind of armor it is wearing." There's nothing there that says you can add anything to that 16. Only that you cannot, no matter what armor you're wearing, have less than 16. Note that armor gives a base AC plus your dex (if light or medium), or just sets your AC (if heavy). Barkskin doesn't even set your AC. It just gives a minimum. If you wear armor, or have stats, or have circumstances which cause your AC to be higher than 16, barkskin isn't doing anything for you. If your AC, for any reason, would be lower than 16, your AC is 16.

That's it.

Now, again, if you think that's bad for a 2nd level spell, we're in the right forum to discuss how to change it, but let's not try to pretend the existing version says something other than what it does.


The part where most 1st level Druids can "buy" a 14 Dex, get Hide Armor, a shield* (starting wealth 20 gp average) and match a 2nd level spell, is kinda my point for why the Barkskin's AC 16 should be counted as base.Sure. We could create a version, or house rule it, to do that, and this isn't a terrible argument for that. Concentration is a high cost, and it is a 2nd level spell.


Basically, like BerzerkerUnit said, it's basically Chainmail without penalty.
Where shield should still add.Not as written, but you can make an argument to change it to this.


If it's not, then I tend to agree that it is very time consuming to keep track of both....really? "If your AC is less than 16, it's 16" is that hard to keep track of?


And Barkskin is neigh useless outside of Wild Shape (and the rare case of naked ally)This may be a hint as to when it's intended to be used.

Incidentally, it comes up in a published dungeon. In The Sunless Citadel from Tales of the Yawning Portal, two human NPC enemies have the spell on them (neither is having to maintain their own Concentration on it). The sorceress's AC is 16 when it would otherwise be lower. The warrior's AC is higher, because his armor and shield make it better. This is how the spell is meant to work. (The reason he has the spell on him is plot-related.)


So, even if the Druid gets +3 Hide and +3 shield they max out at AC 22.

But, even with +5 Dex and +3 Studded Leather, the Rogue's AC is 20. (AC 17 without Magic)

Even if they somehow get +5 Dex, both Sorcerer and Wizard are stuck with AC 18 at best, with a +5 Shield boost a few times a day.
Bracers of Armor is (12+Dex) AC 17: With Ring of Protection and Staff of Power granting an AC bonus of 1 each? (AC 19)

Without magic items: Spending (at least) a 1st level slot for AC 13 (+5 Dex) for 8 hours every day.

Draconic Sorcerer can match AC 13 from scales +Dex, so don't need Bracers of Armor.

(Better AC is why there are so many Fighter 2/Wizard X and (non-Draconic) Soradins, with some extra slots for either Smite {usually} or AoE/CC/Utility spells as a bonus)

The Hexblade is rocking out with AC 25.
(AC 17 without Magic)

The Heavy Armor Cleric is AC 26
(AC 20 without Magic)

And the "AC Rulers" are Fighter/Paladin with 27.
(AC 21 without Magic)

But then, even these high ACs aren't much Protection against +16 -> to hit from CR 17+ monsters...

And since I didn't expect the original 2nd level spell to compete, I was willing to give Barkskin a base of AC 20 with a higher level spell slot.
Even with a +3/2 shield and +1 Ring, still has the Tanks being "AC Rulers".


******
For those AC vs DPR experts: would the loss of an 8th level spell slot be enough to "justify" AC 20 for, say, 24 hours still be alright?
If not: 12 hours? 8 hours?

Assuming the usual 6-10 CR appropriate Encounters per day.

(No Concentration still needs to be addressed)It's worth noting that an AC of 22 is amazingly high in 5e. Yes, high-CR enemies have attack bonuses that hit this easily; most survivability tricks in high-level D&D aren't reliant on being missed, but on tanking the hit.

Also, barkskin is a level 2 spell. While level 2 spells should theoretically be useful all the way up, they shouldn't be standbys that provide all you need at high level.


That said, if you wanted to remove Concentration from it, it would probably be fine. If you want it to actually enable you to push your AC higher than 16 by using it as a base, though, that's trickier.

Perhaps...

Barkskin
2nd-level Transmutation
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Touch
Components: V, S, M (a suit of wooden armor worn by the target)
Duration: Concentration, up to 1 hour

You touch a willing target, and his armor merges with his flesh, allowing him to add his full Dexterity to his armor class (if he couldn't already) and granting him proficiency in the armor worn. This armor shifts forms with him and remains present in any form the target assumes.


This now makes you have to provide the armor for the base AC, but also invites invitation of "wooden" versions of traditionally metal armors.

[Great Dragon]

This is the Homebrew subforum, so yes, we can discuss how to change it.

While I actually like knowing RAW (and being corrected when I'm wrong) plus any RAI/RAF interpretations, I also like to tinker with stuff, and then check with other "people in the know" (there are several on the site, and I'm always Glad to see them post) to see if what I have makes sense, or needs to be set on (nuclear) fire!!


...really? "If your AC is less than 16, it's 16" is that hard to keep track of?
Actually, yes. When I have up to 10 Players at the table, and only about five hours of play time.
I have more than enough to keep track of then stopping everything I'm doing to check if someone's current AC is correct, etc.

Sure, if I can trust the Druid PC to keep track of this, and to be honest, I'll allow that.
(No offense to anyone, but I find an awful lot of players "testing" to see if I'm paying attention)


It's worth noting that an AC of 22 is amazingly high in 5e. Yes, high-CR enemies have attack bonuses that hit this easily; most survivability tricks in high-level D&D aren't reliant on being missed, but on tanking the hit.

Also, barkskin is a level 2 spell. While level 2 spells should theoretically be useful all the way up, they shouldn't be standbys that provide all you need at high level.
Should I create a "Greater Barkskin"?
Might not be needed with the spell version you made.


That said, if you wanted to remove Concentration from it, it would probably be fine.
Yes, but should I include any consumed (expensive) material components?
Since everyone seems to say there should still be a cost to get things from spells to keep things "fair" for straight Martials Link (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?586153-The-Man-Keeping-the-Martial-Down)



Not as written, but you can make an argument to change it to this.

If you want it to actually enable you to push your AC higher than 16 by using it as a base, though, that's trickier.

Perhaps...

Barkskin
2nd-level Transmutation
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Touch
Components: V, S, M (a suit of wooden armor worn by the target)
Duration: Concentration, up to 1 hour

You touch a willing target, and his armor merges with his flesh, allowing him to add his full Dexterity to his armor class (if he couldn't already) and granting him proficiency in the armor worn. This armor shifts forms with him and remains present in any form the target assumes.

This now makes you have to provide the armor for the base AC, but also invites invitation of "wooden" versions of traditionally metal armors.


This actually works great, since I do have non-metal Armors, for my games.

[wheelercub]

I like the idea of tweaking this spell. However, I would go with the following:

•*Duration: 8 hours
•*Casting Time: 1 action
•*Range: Touch
•*Components: V, S, M (a handful of oak bark)
•*Description: When you cast this spell on a target, their AC becomes equal to your Proficiency Bonus + your Wisdom Modifier. If the target's AC is already higher, this spell has no effect. Shields and magic items do not increase the target's AC further.

[JNAProductions]

I like the idea of tweaking this spell. However, I would go with the following:

•*Duration: 8 hours
•*Casting Time: 1 action
•*Range: Touch
•*Components: V, S, M (a handful of oak bark)
•*Description: When you cast this spell on a target, their AC becomes equal to your Proficiency Bonus + your Wisdom Modifier. If the target's AC is already higher, this spell has no effect. Shields and magic items do not increase the target's AC further.

Um... That'd cap at 11.

I don't think the ability to improve your AC to 11 at level 17+ is very useful.

[Great Dragon]

•*Duration: 8 hours
•*Casting Time: 1 action
•*Range: Touch
•*Components: V, S, M (a handful of oak bark)
•*Description: When you cast this spell on a target, their AC becomes equal to your Proficiency Bonus + your Wisdom Modifier. If the target's AC is already higher, this spell has no effect. Shields and magic items do not increase the target's AC further.


Um... That'd cap at 11.

I don't think the ability to improve your AC to 11 at level 17+ is very useful.

8 + Proficiency + Wis = AC 19 cap?
So, better than Studded Leather + 5 Dex.
Equal to Half Plate, +2 Dex and +2 from shield.

How about
10 + Proficiency + Wis = AC 21 cap?
IDK, Equal to Full Plate + 2 from shield and +1 Defense Style. But, can't be improved.
****************
Even Upcasting the second option at +1 AC/level slot used, would mostly match AC 28.

But, I am betting that a Spell duplicating maximum magical Armor for 8 hours is probably a bit much.

Although, I don't think anyone would want to Upcast Barkskin any higher than with a 7th level slot.
Which is a cap of AC 26.

AC 19 for 8 hours, even in an animal form, isn't too bad.

More thoughts?

[JNAProductions]

Would not go above 8+Prof+Wis.

AC 19 is better than Full Plate.

[Breccia]

My solution:

"You can cast this spell on yourself while in animal form."

Thoughts?

[Great Dragon]

Would not go above 8+Prof+Wis.

AC 19 is better than Full Plate.

Ok.

3rd level: 8 +2 Proficiency + 3 Wis* = AC 13.
Equal to Mage Armor, but no Dex or shield/s.
(Before 4th level, Getting an 18 with Point Buy isn't easy, and +3 is about the best you can hope for with Rolling)

AC 19 is better than Full Plate, but only gained at 17th level.

By that time the Fighter/Paladin has (at least) +2 Plate armor and +2 shield, maybe +1 Ring of Protection, plus Defense Style. AC 26.
Add another +2 from Legendary Armor/shield upgrades = AC 28. (About 40% hit chance?)

Humm, makes an argument for non metal armors, both Medium and Heavy, in the game.
18 (+3 magic) +5 shield (2 + 3 magic) = 26, ever. And most CR 17 Monsters hit that about half the time.

[Vogie]

My solution:

"You can cast this spell on yourself while in animal form."

Thoughts?

I like that as a bonus if you use a higher spell slot.

At Higher Levels. If you cast this spell using a spell slot of 3rd level or higher, you can cast this spell on yourself while wild shaped, without any components. If you use a spell slot of 4th level or higher, the duration is 8 hours. Using a spell slot of 5th level or higher grants a duration that doesn’t require concentration.

[JNAProductions]

Ok.

3rd level: 8 +2 Proficiency + 3 Wis* = AC 13.
Equal to Mage Armor, but no Dex or shield/s.
(Before 4th level, Getting an 18 with Point Buy isn't easy, and +3 is about the best you can hope for with Rolling)

AC 19 is better than Full Plate, but only gained at 17th level.

By that time the Fighter/Paladin has (at least) +2 Plate armor and +2 shield, maybe +1 Ring of Protection, plus Defense Style. AC 26.
Add another +2 from Legendary Armor/shield upgrades = AC 28. (About 40% hit chance?)

Humm, makes an argument for non metal armors, both Medium and Heavy, in the game.
18 (+3 magic) +5 shield (2 + 3 magic) = 26, ever. And most CR 17 Monsters hit that about half the time.

No DM I know is that generous with items

[Composer99]

IIRC the game maths aren't balanced around magic items, so it would be unsuitable re-working barkskin based around the assumption of their presence.

[Great Dragon]

I like that as a bonus if you use a higher spell slot.

At Higher Levels. If you cast this spell using a spell slot of 3rd level or higher, you can cast this spell on yourself while wild shaped, without any components. If you use a spell slot of 4th level or higher, the duration is 8 hours. Using a spell slot of 5th level or higher grants a duration that doesn’t require concentration.

I like this idea, but need to playtest it out a little.

Maybe 1 hour for 2nd level slot; cast on self while an animal for a 3rd level slot; no concentration at 5th level slot; and 8 hour duration for a 6th level slot?




IIRC the game maths aren't balanced around magic items, so it would be unsuitable re-working barkskin based around the assumption of their presence.

True, and a spell most likely should not able to make those items that are gotten pointless.


No DM I know is that generous with items
Well - in my game/s, I don't just hand these out, or allow the more powerful items to be bought off the market.
The PCs can get them, but only by doing the correct Quests.
But - YmMV.

[Kane0]

What I do is make it like Mage Armor. For that 2nd level slot the creature you touch gains a base AC of 16 (no bonus from Dexterity) for 8 hours, no concentration. This makes it the same as Mage Armor but you don't need a 16 Dex to get the same AC.

[Great Dragon]

What I do is make it like Mage Armor. For that 2nd level slot the creature you touch gains a base AC of 16 (no bonus from Dexterity) for 8 hours, no concentration. This makes it the same as Mage Armor but you don't need a 16 Dex to get the same AC.

That's interesting.
Having an AC 16, both in Human and in Beast Form, for 8 hours with no Concentration, isn't too bad.

However, I do like the idea of the spell improving as the Druid gains Experienced.

I'm still kinda wanting to allow a shield to add to the AC, but not Dex.

That would make a maximum AC of 21.
However, this means that this matches the Fighter/Paladin unless they have Magical Armor and/or shield.

Now, because getting magic Armor and items is possible in my game, I don't see a problem with that AC 21.

But, I can see the flip side of the coin.

After all, the AC 19 is equal to a Rogue with maxed Dex in Studded Leather and no magic. However, that Rogue could have had that at 1st level, or if using Point Buy, might have had to wait until 8th level to get that, where the Druid, even if using Physical non-metal armor equal to half plate, is still maxing out at AC 19 without magic, and AC 26 (Ranger) even with magic.

[Kane0]

However, I do like the idea of the spell improving as the Druid gains Experienced.

I'm still kinda wanting to allow a shield to add to the AC, but not Dex.


It would, because its setting base AC not minimum/maximum.

+1 AC for every second spell slot above 2nd? So a 4th gives you AC 17, a 6th AC 18 and an 8th AC 19? Plus potential shield, cover, etc after that.
Could potentially be a bit strong, maybe reduce the duration if you were going to scale it (i don’t think it should but thats just me)

[Great Dragon]

I'm liking this Debate !!

So, I see three possibilities so far:


One


8 + 6 Proficiency + 5 Wis (max) = AC 19.



(adding) Maybe 1 hour for a 2nd level slot; no concentration and (Vogie) *cast on self while an animal* for a 3rd level slot; an 8 hour duration for a 5th level slot, and 24 hours for a 7th level slot?


Two


Also, barkskin is a level 2 spell. While level 2 spells should theoretically be useful all the way up, they shouldn't be standbys that provide all you need at high level.


That said, if you wanted to remove Concentration from it, it would probably be fine. If you want it to actually enable you to push your AC higher than 16 by using it as a base, though, that's trickier.

Perhaps...

Barkskin
2nd-level Transmutation
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Touch
Components: V, S, M (a suit of wooden armor worn by the target)
Duration: Concentration, up to 1 hour

You touch a willing target, and his armor merges with his flesh, allowing him to add his full Dexterity to his armor class (if he couldn't already) and granting him proficiency in the armor worn. This armor shifts forms with him and remains present in any form the target assumes.


This now makes you have to provide the armor for the base AC, but also invites invitation of "wooden" versions of traditionally metal armors.


Three

(Shield) would add, because (Barkskin) setting base AC not minimum/maximum.

+1 AC for every second spell slot above 2nd?
(Edited) So a 3rd gives you AC 17, a 4th AC 18 and a 5th AC 19?
Plus potential shield, cover, etc after that.

Could potentially be a bit strong, maybe reduce the duration if you were going to scale it (i don’t think it should but thats just me)

No offense Kane0, but I prefer the first; Where the spell automatically improves with level.
I don't feel that it's worth a 5th+ level spell slot for only a +3 to AC, even for 8 hours.

Makes it where the High Level Druid doesn't have to wear obvious Armor to be protected in most combat situations.

Number two is next favorite, since the DM can add non-metal armors.

I do agree that a shield should be able to add. Cover should always apply.