Sustain mage build help

[Shuruke]

So making a character for a group

The idea is that they are a short range mage that heals while dealing damage

Here are stats I rolled

Race is tiefling


Str 10
Dex 13
Con 14
Int 18
Wis 16
Cha 19


Level 1 will be Draconic sorcerer (dm is allowing shadow dragon bloodline for necrotic.)

Not sure build order but here's my requirements

1st level sorc for rp reasons

2 levels wizard by level 5 (necromancy)

By level 10 have vampiric touch


Multiclassing into cleric or etc is okay but a level 1 or 2 dip max out of the main 2 classes of sorc and wizard




Thoughts

Necromancer 2 doesn't state specifically wizard spells , meaning inflict wounds could be used with this (not sure if magic intiate would work here)

How could I go about this concept while being mostly caster (1-2 dip fighter could be good for second wind)



Concept

The characters name is Grey. They traverse the world working to show the truth to others. Magic is not a simple black and white. Instead all magic is grey. For it is not the effect of magic but its cause.


Quote

"What , you look at me as if I've done something evil. Would you prefer I burn them alive? Turn the inside of their body to ice? Magic isn't black and white its only grey. All magic is only as good as the cause it's being used for"

[mephiztopheleze]

you're heading down the path of MADness.
Stick with just Sorc/Cleric or go Wizard with a one level dip into Cleric.
Or go Sorcerer and take a Magic Initiate feat for some Cleric spells.
Or even just go straight Cleric.

Sorc/Cleric/Wizard is, imho, going to leave you a little meh. I'm not saying it won't work, just that on the face of things there's not going to be much synergy between the class picks and you'll seriously slow down your progression towards gaining access to higher level spells.

[Galithar]

Divine Soul Sorcerer seems to be mechanically the best fit, even if it isn't the best roleplaying fit. Maybe dip wizard just for your Necromancer ability? AFB so not sure how big a dip that would be. Definitely avoid at all costs having 3 different casting stats though.

[Rukelnikov]

You wanna build a Vampiric Touch specialist? Who also is a Tiefling, only has at most 2 lvls besides Wizard or Sorcerer, has draconic for bloodline and also gets VT by level 10?

Well, you pretty much have the build done already, Sorc doesn't get VT, so we are already looking at DraconicSorc1/Necro5, so ill present 2 options from here:

DSorc4/Necr5/DeathCleric1

Str 10
Dex 13
Con 14
Int 20(+2 ASI)
Wis 16
Cha 19

ASIs: 2 Int, Warcaster (we are gonna be at melee range and have a Concentration spell as our main schtick, its a must)
AC = 18(Splint + Shield)

Death Cleric lvl dip gets us 1st lvl Cleric spells and a lesser twin for Toll the Dead and Chill Touch, it also gets Medium Armor and Shield, which will be really necessary for staying in melee.

Quicken Spell is pretty good for a VT centered build since it allows for casting a spell and use VT in the same round.

DSorc1-3/Necr17-19

This build in the long run gets 9th lvl spells, the other doesn't.

*******

DISCLAIMER: Don't expect the first build to be UBER using VT, but I think its among the best you will get with the constraints you presented. The second build will likely be better in general, but probably not hit the mark you wanna.

[Shuruke]

Divine Soul Sorcerer seems to be mechanically the best fit, even if it isn't the best roleplaying fit. Maybe dip wizard just for your Necromancer ability? AFB so not sure how big a dip that would be. Definitely avoid at all costs having 3 different casting stats though.

That makes sense main idea is just sorc and wizard but figured people might recemend a cleric or fighter dip for a.c

[Shuruke]

You wanna build a Vampiric Touch specialist? Who also is a Tiefling, only has at most 2 lvls besides Wizard or Sorcerer, has draconic for bloodline and also gets VT by level 10?

Well, you pretty much have the build done already, Sorc doesn't get VT, so we are already looking at DraconicSorc1/Necro5, so ill present 2 options from here:

DSorc4/Necr5/DeathCleric1

Str 10
Dex 13
Con 14
Int 20(+2 ASI)
Wis 16
Cha 19

ASIs: 2 Int, Warcaster (we are gonna be at melee range and have a Concentration spell as our main schtick, its a must)
AC = 18(Splint + Shield)

Death Cleric lvl dip gets us 1st lvl Cleric spells and a lesser twin for Toll the Dead and Chill Touch, it also gets Medium Armor and Shield, which will be really necessary for staying in melee.

Quicken Spell is pretty good for a VT centered build since it allows for casting a spell and use VT in the same round.

DSorc1-3/Necr17-19

This build in the long run gets 9th lvl spells, the other doesn't.

*******

DISCLAIMER: Don't expect the first build to be UBER using VT, but I think its among the best you will get with the constraints you presented. The second build will likely be better in general, but probably not hit the mark you wanna.

I think I might just stick with wizard sorc even though death and grave cleric are appealing and I always like a 2 dip fighter

[Keravath]

The problem is that your stats are good enough to support any type of multiclass you like. However, the more multiclassing you have the fewer levels in each and the slower the resulting spell progression.

You have a 13 dex. This is only +1 to AC. Sorcerer/wizard can only utilize mage armor for a net of 14 AC. Hit points are relatively low with 8 at first level and 6/level after that. In other words, the build is very squishy and the odds are good that you will end up stuck in melee at some point since casters are always a target.

However, the sorcerer spell selection is pretty limited since in the end, even at level 20, you only have 15 or so spells known. If you make several of these cleric or healing spells you will find yourself under quite a bit of pressure to choose the "right" spells. Multiclassing wizard alleviates this a bit with rituals and additional low level spells known.

Finally, hexblade warlock gives you medium armor and shields, weapon proficiencies, a first level spell slot, some additional first level spells to choose from.

Some options:
sorc X/wizard 2-5/cleric 1
sorc X/wizard 2-5/hexblade warlock 1-3

If you can rearrange your stats then you could probably build something a bit better. e.g. 16-> con, 14-> dex, 13-> wis ... focus on sorcerer/wizard/ maybe warlock (though you can STILL take a level in cleric if you'd prefer since you only need the 13 for multiclassing and clerical spells won't be the focus of the build.

There are lots of different ways to build such a character but you also want to think about how it will play as you level up.

Finally, you mention wanting to make use of vampiric touch. This is a melee spell attack. If you have poor armor and hitpoints your character will not do well in melee (even with shield your AC will max out at 19 [20 if you bump dex with an ASI]. However, by the time you are in tier 2, typical to hit modifiers will be in the +6 to +10 range so the creatures will still hit you 25% to 50% of the time even with a 20 AC) and vampiric touch will not save you so if this is the direction you want to take the character then you need to think about it a bit more carefully. (Vampiric touch is only available to a 5th level warlock or wizard so if you really want that spell then you will need to incorporate 5 levels of one of those two into the build).

[Shuruke]

The problem is that your stats are good enough to support any type of multiclass you like. However, the more multiclassing you have the fewer levels in each and the slower the resulting spell progression.

You have a 13 dex. This is only +1 to AC. Sorcerer/wizard can only utilize mage armor for a net of 14 AC. Hit points are relatively low with 8 at first level and 6/level after that. In other words, the build is very squishy and the odds are good that you will end up stuck in melee at some point since casters are always a target.

However, the sorcerer spell selection is pretty limited since in the end, even at level 20, you only have 15 or so spells known. If you make several of these cleric or healing spells you will find yourself under quite a bit of pressure to choose the "right" spells. Multiclassing wizard alleviates this a bit with rituals and additional low level spells known.

Finally, hexblade warlock gives you medium armor and shields, weapon proficiencies, a first level spell slot, some additional first level spells to choose from.

Some options:
sorc X/wizard 2-5/cleric 1
sorc X/wizard 2-5/hexblade warlock 1-3

If you can rearrange your stats then you could probably build something a bit better. e.g. 16-> con, 14-> dex, 13-> wis ... focus on sorcerer/wizard/ maybe warlock (though you can STILL take a level in cleric if you'd prefer since you only need the 13 for multiclassing and clerical spells won't be the focus of the build.

There are lots of different ways to build such a character but you also want to think about how it will play as you level up.

Finally, you mention wanting to make use of vampiric touch. This is a melee spell attack. If you have poor armor and hitpoints your character will not do well in melee (even with shield your AC will max out at 19 [20 if you bump dex with an ASI]. However, by the time you are in tier 2, typical to hit modifiers will be in the +6 to +10 range so the creatures will still hit you 25% to 50% of the time even with a 20 AC) and vampiric touch will not save you so if this is the direction you want to take the character then you need to think about it a bit more carefully. (Vampiric touch is only available to a 5th level warlock or wizard so if you really want that spell then you will need to incorporate 5 levels of one of those two into the build).

I understand the a.c point but even at my current table the max a.c is 18 and we are level 19
(My rogues can get up to 22 with shield but even then) generally wouldn't it be better to just increase health and survivability through other means since once creatures have a +10 outside of ludicrous a.c (ie specifically building for it.) You mostly won't break a constant 20.
I plan on having spells like mirror image and false life


My stats arnt set that's just where I have them currently. I could move the 13 to wis, 16 to con and 14 to dex.

Thatd make my a.c 15
And hp 10 with 1d6+4 a sorc level 1d6+3 a wizard level

Idk
I'm not to worried about survivability cuz spells and etc

[Rukelnikov]

I understand the a.c point but even at my current table the max a.c is 18 and we are level 19
(My rogues can get up to 22 with shield but even then) generally wouldn't it be better to just increase health and survivability through other means since once creatures have a +10 outside of ludicrous a.c (ie specifically building for it.) You mostly won't break a constant 20.
I plan on having spells like mirror image and false life


My stats arnt set that's just where I have them currently. I could move the 13 to wis, 16 to con and 14 to dex.

Thatd make my a.c 15
And hp 10 with 1d6+4 a sorc level 1d6+3 a wizard level

Idk
I'm not to worried about survivability cuz spells and etc

Thing is, survivability will be your main issue.

You wanna use VT for the sustain, but odds are, getting in melee to use it with only 15 AC will likely result in ending a fight with less HP than you would have if you stayed range, shield will afford you a bit more staying power, at the cost of running out of spells faster.

Now, I'm not saying "stay at range", since what you wanna do is use VT, but you should try to make it viable. If you are willing to sacrifice Counterspelling, and most of your spellcasting, you will most likely be able to stay in melee and attack with VT, however you will be largely underpowered for your level.

[Keravath]

I understand the a.c point but even at my current table the max a.c is 18 and we are level 19
(My rogues can get up to 22 with shield but even then) generally wouldn't it be better to just increase health and survivability through other means since once creatures have a +10 outside of ludicrous a.c (ie specifically building for it.) You mostly won't break a constant 20.
I plan on having spells like mirror image and false life


My stats arnt set that's just where I have them currently. I could move the 13 to wis, 16 to con and 14 to dex.

Thatd make my a.c 15
And hp 10 with 1d6+4 a sorc level 1d6+3 a wizard level

Idk
I'm not to worried about survivability cuz spells and etc

The possible AC depends strongly on the game. If you have a 14 dex and wear half-plate medium armor then your AC can be 19. If a character is wearing heavy armor it can be a 20. If you are a fighter/paladin/ranger with the defensive fighting style these get bumped by one.

However, usually by the teens, a set of +1 armor and a +1 shield are not uncommon which boosts the base AC to the 21-22 range. Shield can add +5 to this.

On the other hand, even comparing a 14AC to an 18AC, that represents 20% less chance to be hit which can translate into a lot less damage taken depending on the opponent.

Finally, the only problem with the defensive spells is getting them out. It takes a turn to cast which is a turn you won't be attacking. Sometimes this won't matter and other times it might. Either way if you are starting sorcerer then I would rearrange the stats. If you are set on relying on mage armor then I might even consider 16 dex/14con/13 wis rather than 14dex/16con/13wis. The latter set is probably the better choice if you have medium armor. Either set leaves open the option to later take resilient wisdom for proficiency in wisdom saves.