Tenser's Transformation Heavy Armor proficiency is actually useful, though very risky

[diplomancer]

Now, this could be considered an abuse of RAW, but I don't think anything states that you are "wearing" your armor until you've taken the full time to don it. RAW, it even specifically states that you don't get your AC bonus until you've taken the full time.

So, in theory, you could take 9 minutes and 54 seconds to don a heavy armor, cast Tenser's Transformation, and then finish donning the armor. If you lose concentration in the middle of battle, though, I would hate to be you. Unless you get your hands on some Cast-Off Plate.

[Dalebert]

In a Homebrew, I introduced auto-donning plate that's also cast-off. It's uncommon.

[Brutalitops]

Here is the homebrew fix for that spell. When you cast it you automatically raise your AC to 18 as magic plate male manifests on you which you are proficient in. Also its non concentration but you cannot maintain concentration spells whiles it is cast.

that is how i would fix that spell to make it playable.

[strangebloke]

You can put on plate without being proficient in it.

Or you could have a magical set of plate on hand.

Either works, really.

[Tanarii]

You can put on plate without being proficient in it.
Can't cast spells in armor you're not proficient in.

[strangebloke]

Can't cast spells in armor you're not proficient in.

Derp. Forgot that

[Damon_Tor]

A level 14+ illusionist wizard could use Disguise Self to cover himself in Platemail then use Illusory Reality to make it real. Effectively you can "don" your platemail as a bonus action.

[JNAProductions]

Now, this could be considered an abuse of RAW, but I don't think anything states that you are "wearing" your armor until you've taken the full time to don it. RAW, it even specifically states that you don't get your AC bonus until you've taken the full time.

So, in theory, you could take 9 minutes and 54 seconds to don a heavy armor, cast Tenser's Transformation, and then finish donning the armor. If you lose concentration in the middle of battle, though, I would hate to be you. Unless you get your hands on some Cast-Off Plate.

Considered?

I much prefer the "Your AC becomes 18 (regardless of Dex mod) as a magical set of force full plate appears on you" to that... Contortion.

No issues from me with buffing a mediocre spell, but don't abuse RAW to do that. Just buff the spell.

[Rukelnikov]

I think there are builds that can make really good use of TT as is, for instance HexLock1/WhisperBard X with XBE and SS, however since such build are pretty specific this makes TT extremely niche.

The best use I see for the spell is using a ranged weapon, for example at lvl 11, when the spell normally becomes available, assuming Dex 14:

Attack: Longbow +6, damage 1d8+2+2d12 (avg 19.5) x2 = 39 avg
Cantrip: Firebolt +9, damage 3d10 (avg 16.5)

Considering you attack with advantage you get generally better chance to hit and more than double the DPR. Assuming you can keep concentration for 2 encounters, you "saved" a the slots of 2 encounters in exchange for a lvl 6 one... is it worth it? Likely depends on the ammount of encounters you expect to get, but it is a gamble sicne if you only manage to keep it for one encounter you probably would have gotten better results by just fireballing with that slot and firebolting the rest of the encounter.

EDIT: More explicity, in a full white room situation, you "gain" 22.5 damage (before factoring in chance to hit) for each round you have TT over just using cantrips. A 6th lvl Fireball that gets 3 enemies, assuming none of them make their save equals 33d6 damage, avg 115.5 / 22.5 =~ 5.13. This means if you manage to keep it for more than 5 combat turns you gain more bang for your buck than using a fireball. Thing is, you are seriously commiting to one strat and gambling whether you'll be able to maintain it or not... In general, I think its only viable use is to keep it as a back up plan and if the day is going longer than expected resort to it to save some slots.

[No brains]

Another strat could be to put Tenser's Transformation into a Glyph of Warding. Put on your plate and waddle onto the spot that turns you into a MIGHTY WARRIOR.*

I want to try this on an NPC when I DM a game because player strategy could greatly influence how a fight could go if TT were stuck on for 10 minutes. A Boss casts GoW TT and becomes a powerful warrior? Now players have the chance to make them wish they could cast spells again. "It's over Anakin! I have the high ground!"

*there are some who believe this would not work because a GoW with a 'self' spell would target the glyph itself, rather than the caster of the self spell. I do not share that interpretation.

[diplomancer]

actually, best use for the Spell is any Bard with a Saber Tooth Tiger Greater Steed (whispers bard is the best one for straight damage), which has a good chance of making 3 attacks per round when it pounces (first two attacks with claws impose a DC14 Strength save for prone, if it is prone a bonus action bite gives it a 3rd attack).

Also, I don't think that ranged attacks are the best use for it anyway; that is actually a situation where 2 weapon fighting makes a lot of sense, even without the bonus to damage.

The RAW abuse was just something I realized reading the rules for casting in armor, but it did make me think about other things; Suppose you are proficient in Medium Armor, and you are wearing Half-Plate. If you cast the spell and you have the missing parts of a full plate at hand, should it really take you the full 10 minutes to put on the Full plate? Can't you just, you know, complete it? That is definitely not RAW, but it also does not look like an abuse.

[Damon_Tor]

*there are some who believe this would not work because a GoW with a 'self' spell would target the glyph itself, rather than the caster of the self spell. I do not share that interpretation.

There's no justification for this. Nothing implies the rune is the thing casting the spell. In fact the Glyph requires you to cast the stored spell as a part of creating the glpyh.


"Spell Glyph: You can store a prepared spell of 3rd level or lower in the glyph by casting it as part of creating the glyph."

Note that you, the caster of the Glyph, are also casting the stored spell.


"The spell must target a single creature or an area."

Sometimes considered a hangup, but it's difficult to argue that "self" is not a subset of "one creature". But it's also important to note that it isn't possible to use the GoW to cast a self-targeted spell on someone else. You can't put down a GoW with Tenser's Transformation and then have the fighter trigger it.


"The spell being stored has no immediate effect when cast in this way. When the glyph is triggered, the stored spell is cast."

Not "cast by the glyph" just "cast". You are still the caster of the spell, nothing in the text of the spell states or implies otherwise.


"If the spell has a target, it Targets the creature that triggered the glyph. If the spell affects an area, the area is centered on that creature. If the spell summons hostile creatures or creates harmful Objects or traps, they appear as close as possible to the intruder and Attack it. If the spell requires Concentration, it lasts until the end of its full Duration."

[No brains]

The RAW abuse was just something I realized reading the rules for casting in armor, but it did make me think about other things; Suppose you are proficient in Medium Armor, and you are wearing Half-Plate. If you cast the spell and you have the missing parts of a full plate at hand, should it really take you the full 10 minutes to put on the Full plate? Can't you just, you know, complete it? That is definitely not RAW, but it also does not look like an abuse.

Technically, there's more of a difference between half plate and full plate than just missing components. The way the components attach and are supported is important. Besides, putting on greaves while already wearing a breastplate would be hell. MAYBE a lenient DM would let some form of that work if the character had help to finish arming up.

Edit: @ Damon_Tor: Good post. Aye: I observe all of those interpretations of GoW. I would also rule that the self-caster would need to be the one to step on the glyph to take their self spell. I don't think another creature stepping on a glyph could activate a self spell on someone else.

[Damon_Tor]

actually, best use for the Spell is any Bard with a Saber Tooth Tiger Greater Steed (whispers bard is the best one for straight damage), which has a good chance of making 3 attacks per round when it pounces (first two attacks with claws impose a DC14 Strength save for prone, if it is prone a bonus action bite gives it a 3rd attack).

If memory serves, it's slightly better on the Rhinoceros because it's charge attack is balanced assuming one attack per turn is all it's going to get.

The Sabretoothed Tiger will deal 2(2d6+2d12+5)+(1d10+2d12+5) but the Rhinoceros deals 2(4d8+2d12+5).

2(2(3.5)+2(6.5)+5)+(1(5.5)+2(6.5)+5)= 73.5
2(4(4.5)+2(6.5)+5)= 72

The Sabretooth seems to be 1.5 damage ahead, but you have to account for the Rhino's relative +1 to attacks and the fact that none of its attacks are gated by another attack hitting or by a saving throw. Even just plugging in the Rhino's extra 5% to hit alone closes the gap and puts the Rhino in front, and if we were to figure for the possibility the bite doesn't get triggered because neither claw attack hit or the target made its str save it would pull even farther ahead. I don't feel like doing that math right now, so I'm not entirely sure how far ahead the rhino is, but he's ahead.

[MaxWilson]

If memory serves, it's slightly better on the Rhinoceros because it's charge attack is balanced assuming one attack per turn is all it's going to get.

You're right--technically there's no rule that says a Rhinoceros can't get the +2d8 on multiple Gore attacks in the same turn, due to Haste/Tenser's/opportunity attack/whatever.

That is gross (from a game sanity perspective), but very clever. Interesting find.

[Damon_Tor]

It's also worth noting that the Rhino doesn't have to use his bonus action to deal that damage, meaning he's free to fire off a Crown of Stars attack. Not that his -2 Cha is going to do much with it, but every dice roll matters.

And yes, I'm aware there's controversy around whether Crown of Stars counts as a spell that "targets only you", but Crawford's rather precise (https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/693202352296189952?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5E tweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E693202352296189952&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.sageadvice.eu%2F2017%2F0 5%2F22%2Ffind-steed-spells-that-target-only-you%2F) definition of the term would include it, if your table holds his rulings as binding. Odd that Crawford would allow Crown of Stars on a Greater Steed but not Dragon's Breath on a familiar. But meh.

[diplomancer]

It's also worth noting that the Rhino doesn't have to use his bonus action to deal that damage, meaning he's free to fire off a Crown of Stars attack. Not that his -2 Cha is going to do much with it, but every dice roll matters.

And yes, I'm aware there's controversy around whether Crown of Stars counts as a spell that "targets only you", but Crawford's rather precise (https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/693202352296189952?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5E tweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E693202352296189952&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.sageadvice.eu%2F2017%2F0 5%2F22%2Ffind-steed-spells-that-target-only-you%2F) definition of the term would include it, if your table holds his rulings as binding. Odd that Crawford would allow Crown of Stars on a Greater Steed but not Dragon's Breath on a familiar. But meh.

Both Crown of Stars and Melfi Minute Meteors actually; but I feel most DMs would not accept it, more is the pity

(By the way, is there any explanation for the plus 5 to damage of the ST tiger? Should be +4.

[Damon_Tor]

Both Crown of Stars and Melfi Minute Meteors actually; but I feel most DMs would not accept it, more is the pity

Well Melfs requires concentration, so isn't a very useful addition to a conversation about using Tenser's Transformation. But yes, I suppose you could prime your DM for allowing Crown of Stars on your Greater Steed by using Melfs on a Standard Steed for the early levels.

[MaxWilson]

And yes, I'm aware there's controversy around whether Crown of Stars counts as a spell that "targets only you", but Crawford's rather precise (https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/693202352296189952?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5E tweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E693202352296189952&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.sageadvice.eu%2F2017%2F0 5%2F22%2Ffind-steed-spells-that-target-only-you%2F) definition of the term would include it, if your table holds his rulings as binding. Odd that Crawford would allow Crown of Stars on a Greater Steed but not Dragon's Breath on a familiar. But meh.

Also odd that Crawford's definition excludes stuff like Haste and Polymorph, even when you're targeting yourself.


(By the way, is there any explanation for the plus 5 to damage of the ST tiger? Should be +4.

Most similar discrepancies (war horse, brown bear, purple worm, etc.) have been errata'ed out of existence by now. That's enough to make me think the Sabertooth discrepancy is also just an oversight/miscalculation on the part of the MM designers.

[crayzz]

*there are some who believe this would not work because a GoW with a 'self' spell would target the glyph itself, rather than the caster of the self spell. I do not share that interpretation.

I was gonna quibble about how GoW says that a spell must target a single creature, and that thus "single/one creature" should appear in the target field of the spell description (ruling out TT, which says self) before realizing that 5e doesn't seem to have that field. In any case, if the spell is eligible for GoW, it explicitly targets the creature who sets off the glyph: "If the spell has a target, it Targets the creature that triggered the glyph. If the spell affects an area, the area is centered on that creature." It doesn't matter what the spell says, if it goes into a GoW, it targets the creature who set it off.

That said, GoW does say "If you choose an object, that object must remain in its place, if the object is moved more than 10 feet from where you cast this spell, the glyph is broken and the spell ends without being triggered.", which makes casting a TT glyph on your armour less you don't have to move anywhere.

[MaxWilson]

It occurs to me that Tenser's Heavy Armor Proficiency could be useful if you Magic Jar into a body that's wearing heavy armor. Niche but not totally useless.

(Note: cast Magic Jar first, possess a body, then cast Tenser's Transformation and switch bodies to one with heavy armor.)