How can I make magic a tool instead of a weapon

[tedcahill2]

If I wanted to run a game that removed all the hardest hit spells, raw damage wise, but kept in all the utility magic, could it be as simple as banning the evocation school? Or should I go through everything and just remove the spells I don’t want?

Follow up, is there a resource that has an analysis of the average damage spells can do as each level?

[Biolink22]

If I wanted to run a game that removed all the hardest hit spells, raw damage wise, but kept in all the utility magic, could it be as simple as banning the evocation school? Or should I go through everything and just remove the spells I don’t want?

Follow up, is there a resource that has an analysis of the average damage spells can do as each level?

It would most definitely not be as simple as banning the Evocation school, there are plenty of blasts in other schools. In addition there are plenty of good utility spells (Force Cage, Tiny Hut etc...) that are Evocation. Your best bet would just be to go through all the spell lists unfortunately.

[Biggus]

Evocation has the most damaging spells, but all schools have some offensive spells, so yes sadly there isn't really a shortcut.

Page 36 of the DMG has maximum damage dice tables for arcane and divine spells.

[MultitudeMan]

One issue with this approach is that damage spells are not the most useful spells anyway; battlefield control, buffs/debuffs, save-or-dies/save-or-sucks, summons, access to all of these categories is a big part of what makes wizards tier 1 (and most of the best druid spells follow this pattern too), and evocation is the most banned school for specialist wizards exactly because evocation is, overall, less useful than the other schools. You won't particularly nerf casters by banning damage spells, so maybe that wasn't your intention anyway? Is it more a flavour thing?

[Barstro]

"Team, you are not allowed to use magic to attack."

If you don't want utility spells to cause an avalanche or some other "non-attack sort of attack";

"Team, the use of magic cannot result it rolls for attack or damage"

Is there a reason it cannot be as simple as that?

[Biggus]

If I wanted to run a game that removed all the hardest hit spells, raw damage wise, but kept in all the utility magic, could it be as simple as banning the evocation school?


Are you only wanting to remove spells which cause HP damage, or also ones which cause death or disability?



"Team, the use of magic cannot result it rolls for attack or damage"

Is there a reason it cannot be as simple as that?

I'd been thinking along similar lines, it would probably be a lot simpler to specify what magic can't do than to remove all the spells you don't want one by one, especially if you're allowing non-core material.

[Zaq]

Are you cool with in-combat buffs/debuffs/BfC/etc., or do you want magic to only be cast outside of the initiative count? If the latter, it’s as easy as just giving all spells a minimum casting time of 1 minute. (Or just saying “no casting in combat, period.”)

If you want combat magic but no direct offense, that’s harder. You’ll probably just need to implement an agreement and be really up-front about the intent.

[Barstro]

You’ll probably just need to implement an agreement and be really up-front about the intent.

That is generally the appropriate action for anything to do with this and most other games. A lot of things I completely hate become downright palatable when I know the reason behind it.

[tedcahill2]

Evocation has the most damaging spells, but all schools have some offensive spells, so yes sadly there isn't really a shortcut.

Page 36 of the DMG has maximum damage dice tables for arcane and divine spells.This is what I was looking for, thanks.


One issue with this approach is that damage spells are not the most useful spells anyway; battlefield control, buffs/debuffs, save-or-dies/save-or-sucks, summons, access to all of these categories is a big part of what makes wizards tier 1 (and most of the best druid spells follow this pattern too), and evocation is the most banned school for specialist wizards exactly because evocation is, overall, less useful than the other schools. You won't particularly nerf casters by banning damage spells, so maybe that wasn't your intention anyway? Is it more a flavour thing? I plan to run a game with only fixed-list casters, including some home brewed fixed-list clerics and druids and such. So each spell caster with have only a very narrow field of spells to pull from.


"Team, you are not allowed to use magic to attack."

If you don't want utility spells to cause an avalanche or some other "non-attack sort of attack"
I'm okay with players being creative about using the utility spells in the manner.

Are you only wanting to remove spells which cause HP damage, or also ones which cause death or disability?



I'd been thinking along similar lines, it would probably be a lot simpler to specify what magic can't do than to remove all the spells you don't want one by one, especially if you're allowing non-core material.
I'm planning to remove spells that deal significant HP damage. Some spells that deal damage plus another effect are probably okay to keep, but I haven't taken a good look. The ones that hit their damage caps are probably out.

Are you cool with in-combat buffs/debuffs/BfC/etc., or do you want magic to only be cast outside of the initiative count? If the latter, it’s as easy as just giving all spells a minimum casting time of 1 minute. (Or just saying “no casting in combat, period.”)

If you want combat magic but no direct offense, that’s harder. You’ll probably just need to implement an agreement and be really up-front about the intent.
Yes I want combat magic in more creative forms such as charms and illusions, even some minor damage spells will probably make the cut.

That is generally the appropriate action for anything to do with this and most other games. A lot of things I completely hate become downright palatable when I know the reason behind it.It's not so much a goal as a reason. I want the game to just feel more dire than most D&D games I've done. So after skimming through the Grim and Gritty rules I plan to use some of that material. Not sure if I want hit points quite as low as they have them in that game, but I was definitely looking at something like 1.8hp/level+constitution score as being equivalent to classes with d10s. That puts a level 10 fighter with a 15 constitution at 33 hit points, instead of the 75 average hit points they'd have rolling d10+con each level. Obviously with hit points being so low having a fireball dealing 10d6 damage would devastate the entire party. So instead of removing all magic, as Grim and Gritty suggests, I'm just going to remove direct damage spells.

[Falontani]

This is what I was looking for, thanks.

I plan to run a game with only fixed-list casters, including some home brewed fixed-list clerics and druids and such. So each spell caster with have only a very narrow field of spells to pull from.


I'm okay with players being creative about using the utility spells in the manner.

I'm planning to remove spells that deal significant HP damage. Some spells that deal damage plus another effect are probably okay to keep, but I haven't taken a good look. The ones that hit their damage caps are probably out.

Yes I want combat magic in more creative forms such as charms and illusions, even some minor damage spells will probably make the cut.
It's not so much a goal as a reason. I want the game to just feel more dire than most D&D games I've done. So after skimming through the Grim and Gritty rules I plan to use some of that material. Not sure if I want hit points quite as low as they have them in that game, but I was definitely looking at something like 1.8hp/level+constitution score as being equivalent to classes with d10s. That puts a level 10 fighter with a 15 constitution at 33 hit points, instead of the 75 average hit points they'd have rolling d10+con each level. Obviously with hit points being so low having a fireball dealing 10d6 damage would devastate the entire party. So instead of removing all magic, as Grim and Gritty suggests, I'm just going to remove direct damage spells.

A good goal. I will warn you that there are enough ways to do outlandish damage with melee combat that there are definitely things there to look into as well.

Instead of entirely removing direct damage spells, I suggest lowering caps and increasing spell level. So shocking grasp for instance could be a 2nd level spell that does up to 3 dice at level 6 instead of a 1st level spell dealing 5d6 at level 5. Kind of things.

[Grek]

Sleep, Colour Spray, Hideous Laughter, Scare, Hold Person, Stinking Cloud, Solid Fog, Confusion, Phantasmal Killer, Polymorph... all of these are very deadly in the right hands, without ever inflicting hit point damage. More deadly than equal level evocations, even. You pretty much have to whitelist spells that are OK instead of banning specific spells that aren't OK.

[tedcahill2]

A good goal. I will warn you that there are enough ways to do outlandish damage with melee combat that there are definitely things there to look into as well.

Instead of entirely removing direct damage spells, I suggest lowering caps and increasing spell level. So shocking grasp for instance could be a 2nd level spell that does up to 3 dice at level 6 instead of a 1st level spell dealing 5d6 at level 5. Kind of things.

Yeah I was looking at this as well. What I'm toying with right now is restructuring spell slots, with every caster starting with only 0 level spells and acquiring 1st level spells at level 4, then each subsequent level at 6, 8, 10, etc. with spells only going up to level 7 at character level 16.

In addition to this, classes that normally get +1 caster level per class level would instead have a table entry to determine their caster level, which would scale from 0 at level 1 to only 12 at level 20. If I also half all the dice caps that would put a blaster caster hitting a 5d6 fireball, maximum for that level of spell, at level 9.

I may also alternatively half all spell progressions, so instead of a fireball dealing 1d6/caster level it would deal 1d6/2 caster levels. Using the same 0 to 12 scale that fireball wouldn't hit 5d6 damage until level 17.

[Mike Miller]

I may also alternatively half all spell progressions, so instead of a fireball dealing 1d6/caster level it would deal 1d6/2 caster levels. Using the same 0 to 12 scale that fireball wouldn't hit 5d6 damage until level 17.

If you don't want people to use these spells, nerfing them as you've described will do it. No one wants to deal 5d6 with a fireball at level 17, unless you have also changed things like HP.

[Falontani]

It's not so much a goal as a reason. I want the game to just feel more dire than most D&D games I've done. So after skimming through the Grim and Gritty rules I plan to use some of that material. Not sure if I want hit points quite as low as they have them in that game, but I was definitely looking at something like 1.8hp/level+constitution score as being equivalent to classes with d10s. That puts a level 10 fighter with a 15 constitution at 33 hit points, instead of the 75 average hit points they'd have rolling d10+con each level. Obviously with hit points being so low having a fireball dealing 10d6 damage would devastate the entire party. So instead of removing all magic, as Grim and Gritty suggests, I'm just going to remove direct damage spells.


If you don't want people to use these spells, nerfing them as you've described will do it. No one wants to deal 5d6 with a fireball at level 17, unless you have also changed things like HP.

He is changing hp.

[SLOTHRPG95]

Yeah I was looking at this as well. What I'm toying with right now is restructuring spell slots, with every caster starting with only 0 level spells and acquiring 1st level spells at level 4, then each subsequent level at 6, 8, 10, etc. with spells only going up to level 7 at character level 16.

In addition to this, classes that normally get +1 caster level per class level would instead have a table entry to determine their caster level, which would scale from 0 at level 1 to only 12 at level 20. If I also half all the dice caps that would put a blaster caster hitting a 5d6 fireball, maximum for that level of spell, at level 9.

I may also alternatively half all spell progressions, so instead of a fireball dealing 1d6/caster level it would deal 1d6/2 caster levels. Using the same 0 to 12 scale that fireball wouldn't hit 5d6 damage until level 17.

Are you also tinkering with healing magic? Even with a max. CL of 12, a single Heal spell is enough to bring a Great Wyrm Gold Dragon from zero to full with some spare change (assuming 1.8 hp/level progression for d10s roughly translates to 2 hp/level progression for d12s). If you don't change things at all, even Cure Critical Wounds will (on average) heal over 70% of the maximum health of a 20th-level fighter with 20 Con. Compare that to the same fighter with regular hit points, who'd on average heal less than 20% of max hit points from a regular CCW. Or a regular Great Wyrm Gold Dragon with over 700 hit points, for whom even a capped out Mass Heal is not enough to bring it to full unless it was pretty much doing fine anyways.

[tedcahill2]

Are you also tinkering with healing magic? Even with a max. CL of 12, a single Heal spell is enough to bring a Great Wyrm Gold Dragon from zero to full with some spare change (assuming 1.8 hp/level progression for d10s roughly translates to 2 hp/level progression for d12s). If you don't change things at all, even Cure Critical Wounds will (on average) heal over 70% of the maximum health of a 20th-level fighter with 20 Con. Compare that to the same fighter with regular hit points, who'd on average heal less than 20% of max hit points from a regular CCW. Or a regular Great Wyrm Gold Dragon with over 700 hit points, for whom even a capped out Mass Heal is not enough to bring it to full unless it was pretty much doing fine anyways.

Yes. I'm planning to remove any magic healing that adds instant HP. The only heal magic will be spells to help the party recover outside of combat, like a vigor spell but probably slowing the healing from points per round to points per hour.

The game I want to run isn't a game about heroes taking on insane odds, it's about surviving in a world where you're not the strongest thing out there. In this world the continent you live on in controlled by Ogres, with an undead problem on the side. There's no functioning kith economy, settlements are small and hidden, and most kith races have been enslaved by the ogrelords. Ogre are not that strong CR wise though, so under normal D&D they'd quickly outpace the Ogre and be able to wipe them out. Bring in some Grim and Gritty rules and the Ogres become far more dangerous, being large doubles their HP for example. I'm removing spell that directly puts them on par with the Ogres, like enlarge person. There will be no way for a player to make themselves large size, maintaining that size advantage for the Ogre. No teleports, no polymorphs, no high level magic, no massive damage magic, no save or die. Magic should be mostly relegated to buffs, debuffs, enchantments, illusions, things like that.

[Biggus]

I'm planning to remove spells that deal significant HP damage. Some spells that deal damage plus another effect are probably okay to keep, but I haven't taken a good look. The ones that hit their damage caps are probably out.

Yes I want combat magic in more creative forms such as charms and illusions, even some minor damage spells will probably make the cut.
It's not so much a goal as a reason. I want the game to just feel more dire than most D&D games I've done. So after skimming through the Grim and Gritty rules I plan to use some of that material. Not sure if I want hit points quite as low as they have them in that game, but I was definitely looking at something like 1.8hp/level+constitution score as being equivalent to classes with d10s. That puts a level 10 fighter with a 15 constitution at 33 hit points, instead of the 75 average hit points they'd have rolling d10+con each level. Obviously with hit points being so low having a fireball dealing 10d6 damage would devastate the entire party. So instead of removing all magic, as Grim and Gritty suggests, I'm just going to remove direct damage spells.

Something to consider: by doing this you're making anything which increases HPs or reduces HP loss much more important. This is not necessarily a bad thing, but it's worth thinking about the implications, eg.

Damage reduction (especially of the DR/- type) becomes more valuable so high-level Barbarians and Dwarven Defenders become stronger compared to other melee types.

Toughness is no longer a complete waste of a feat, and Improved Toughness (if allowed) is now very powerful.

Spells which provide temporary HPs become extremely useful.

(Edited as I realised I'd misunderstood how you were calculating HPs).


no high level magic

What's the highest spell level you'll be including?

[Mike Miller]

Yes. I'm planning to remove any magic healing that adds instant HP. The only heal magic will be spells to help the party recover outside of combat, like a vigor spell but probably slowing the healing from points per round to points per hour.

The game I want to run isn't a game about heroes taking on insane odds, it's about surviving in a world where you're not the strongest thing out there. In this world the continent you live on in controlled by Ogres, with an undead problem on the side. There's no functioning kith economy, settlements are small and hidden, and most kith races have been enslaved by the ogrelords. Ogre are not that strong CR wise though, so under normal D&D they'd quickly outpace the Ogre and be able to wipe them out. Bring in some Grim and Gritty rules and the Ogres become far more dangerous, being large doubles their HP for example. I'm removing spell that directly puts them on par with the Ogres, like enlarge person. There will be no way for a player to make themselves large size, maintaining that size advantage for the Ogre. No teleports, no polymorphs, no high level magic, no massive damage magic, no save or die. Magic should be mostly relegated to buffs, debuffs, enchantments, illusions, things like that.

Sounds good to me. I think removing the cure x line of spells is unnecessary, though. If you just reduce the amount it heals, it becomes mainly useful for stabilizing people and getting them back on their feet. Combat may end up too deadly if there is no way to heal. However, if you want combat to be last resort and give plenty of options to resolve issues without combat, then it will be fine.

[tedcahill2]

What's the highest spell level you'll be including?I planned on going up to 7th level spells, but at a reduced progression, 1st level spells at 4, 2nd at 6, etc.

[Biggus]

I planned on going up to 7th level spells, but at a reduced progression, 1st level spells at 4, 2nd at 6, etc.

Wow, all casters only get level 0 spells at levels 1-3? Are you going to give Wizards and Sorcerers anything to make them not-completely-useless at these levels, like at-will cantrips, or are you going with the oldschool idea that if you want to be the most powerful at high levels, you should really suck at low levels to balance it out?

[tedcahill2]

Wow, all casters only get level 0 spells at levels 1-3? Are you going to give Wizards and Sorcerers anything to make them not-completely-useless at these levels, like at-will cantrips, or are you going with the oldschool idea that if you want to be the most powerful at high levels, you should really suck at low levels to balance it out?

There are no wizards and sorcerers. Only using fixed-list casters; (official beguiler), and including some home made ones for things like abjuration magic, and force spells, and divinations. So each caster class in this game is a caster, plus something else. Even clerics and druids are being converted to fixed lists.

[Biggus]

There are no wizards and sorcerers. Only using fixed-list casters; (official beguiler), and including some home made ones for things like abjuration magic, and force spells, and divinations. So each caster class in this game is a caster, plus something else. Even clerics and druids are being converted to fixed lists.

Oh OK, when you said "fixed-list casters, including some home brewed fixed-list clerics and druids and such" I assumed you were including Wizards and Sorcerers in the "and such". Although now I come to think about it, since their spell lists are almost identical, they'd become one class if you did convert them to fixed-list.

[Gullintanni]

There are no wizards and sorcerers. Only using fixed-list casters; (official beguiler), and including some home made ones for things like abjuration magic, and force spells, and divinations. So each caster class in this game is a caster, plus something else. Even clerics and druids are being converted to fixed lists.

Perhaps consider mashing up the Cleric with the Adept NPC Class. Give the Cleric the Adept's spell progression with regular domain access and you've got a solid class, with a divine feel. Perhaps the Cleric's only sixth and seventh level spells would only be available through their domain slots.

[Caelestion]

Yeah I was looking at this as well. What I'm toying with right now is restructuring spell slots, with every caster starting with only 0 level spells and acquiring 1st level spells at level 4, then each subsequent level at 6, 8, 10, etc. with spells only going up to level 7 at character level 16.

So you want to make playing a low-level caster almost pointless, but then have your spells "only" two levels behind a sorcerer? Why not just give everyone bardic casting or space out the spell levels such that you gain 1st at 1st, 2nd at 3rd, 3rd at 6th etc?

[jintoya]

My first thought was "magic is out, time to be an alchemist"
So you should likely take into account that someone else will also think this, because, I'd just max heal skills and brew potions... Might be a good opportunity to just make a plague doctor class to fill that role and give them some craft points for brews, with the ceiling getting higher as they level, should be easy to balance

[tedcahill2]

So you want to make playing a low-level caster almost pointless, but then have your spells "only" two levels behind a sorcerer? Why not just give everyone bardic casting or space out the spell levels such that you gain 1st at 1st, 2nd at 3rd, 3rd at 6th etc?

There basically would be no such thing as a full caster in this campaign. Every class that has spells also can do other stuff.

[Caelestion]

Then why not space out your spell levels better? You have cantrip-only casters until 4th, but then have them only one spell level behind for the rest of their career.