Make languages/tools int dependent?

[ChiefBigFeather]

It irks me, that intelligence has so little benefits for many classes. Messing with proficiencies gets dangerous fast, but what about background languages/tool proficiencies? Those shouldn‘t upset the balance too much while giving players who invest into int some small mechanical benefit. How about adjusting bonus languages and tool proficiencies by the int mod?

Any major balance concerns?

[Tallytrev813]

It irks me, that intelligence has so little benefits for many classes. Messing with proficiencies gets dangerous fast, but what about background languages/tool proficiencies? Those shouldn‘t upset the balance too much while giving players who invest into int some small mechanical benefit. How about adjusting bonus languages and tool proficiencies by the int mod?

Any major balance concerns?

How would you use it for Languages?

Like, if you roll poorly you dont understand some of the dialect, but you get the gist of it - vs - a moderate roll is understanding it well - vs - a good roll is understanding the nuances and sland of their dialect of the language providing additional information/insight into the "meaning behind things"?

[Man_Over_Game]

The problem here is that the other skills have a little more support for Language.

Charisma has both Deception and Persuasion, which are pretty Language dependent.
Wisdom has Insight, which is understanding someone's surface emotions, which is often language dependent.
Intelligence has no such skill support, and tying it into Language is pretty hard to justify. History, maybe? As a skill-less check?

I think the best use of Intelligence for Languages is to make an attempt to understand a language you shouldn't. Like, you vaguely understand some of what they're trying to say, if only because of how learned you are. For example, a smarter person might know a few words in Spanish or Russian than someone who's less intelligent or learned. However, Intelligence should NOT replace uses of a language you should already be fluent in.

I think Intelligence would be great for tools, especially the more mechanically inclined ones. Thieves' Tools might be part Dexterity, but I'd say that Intelligence is just as important.

[ChiefBigFeather]

I actually meant that a 12 int char gets to pick another language or tool proficiency, while a 8 int char is too stupid to be a proper hermit and never learned how to properly use that kit (has to drop one tool or language from the background).

[nickl_2000]

That was an old edition thing (not sure which one, but it would be AD&D, 3E, or 3.5E since those are what I played a long time ago). You would get a base language one additional for your race, and then you could pick languages equal to you INT modifier. I don't see why this would be a problem in 5e, it would make int at least a little bit more valuable.

[Asmotherion]

The language barrier rarelly occures; most things have common. it could be a game mechanic if common was... not that common.

if you're interested in the trope i suggest you homerule to remove common from everything except humans; Then everyone has as many languages as their int mod and is fluent only in their Native tongue(s for half elf and half orc). The other languages are on a conversational level; treat them as profficient and have them roll a dc 10-15 to communicate (10 for a simple phrase; 15 for a more complex phrase). On a failure have them missuse some term to give a very different meaning.

[JNAProductions]

The language barrier rarelly occures; most things have common. it could be a game mechanic if common was... not that common.

if you're interested in the trope i suggest you homerule to remove common from everything except humans; Then everyone has as many languages as their int mod and is fluent only in their Native tongue(s for half elf and half orc). The other languages are on a conversational level; treat them as profficient and have them roll a dc 10-15 to communicate (10 for a simple phrase; 15 for a more complex phrase). On a failure have them missuse some term to give a very different meaning.

That sounds like it'd get really annoying, really fast.

[Tallytrev813]

I actually meant that a 12 int char gets to pick another language or tool proficiency, while a 8 int char is too stupid to be a proper hermit and never learned how to properly use that kit (has to drop one tool or language from the background).

Oh, this sounds like a cool idea on the surface.

For every +1 mod to Intel choose another Language or Tool proficiency to have? That would make Int a solid stat.

Although, it would make Wizard even more awesome...

[Wildarm]

The language barrier rarelly occures; most things have common. it could be a game mechanic if common was... not that common.

if you're interested in the trope i suggest you homerule to remove common from everything except humans; Then everyone has as many languages as their int mod and is fluent only in their Native tongue(s for half elf and half orc). The other languages are on a conversational level; treat them as profficient and have them roll a dc 10-15 to communicate (10 for a simple phrase; 15 for a more complex phrase). On a failure have them missuse some term to give a very different meaning.

Sounds like a stat tax for non-humans. Doesn’t pass the fun test. Pretty much anything that takes standard things away from players falls under this.

I do let characters who don’t use int as their primary stat a bonus language or tool if they have a positive int mod. Gotta throw those non-munchins a bone. ;)

[Gryndle]

That sounds like it'd get really annoying, really fast.

I second the annoyance. I played in a game where that was the case...only humans got Common for free. And the language barrier was enforced...and we were restricted to a low point-buy for ability scores. SO either everyone had to be the same race or bump INT, or we couldn't talk to one another. getting a 12 INT made all the non-wizards at the table MAD as hell and mad as hell.

[Kane0]

I've seen a relatively common houserule of an extra tool prof or language at INT 14 and 18, didn't seem gamebreaking to me.

[Lunali]

That sounds like it'd get really annoying, really fast.

It would be far less annoying if you also give all characters trade pidgin or some such. The party can communicate with each other and with people that frequently deal with travelers, but can't talk to the majority of the populace unless they share languages

[hymer]

It irks me, that intelligence has so little benefits for many classes. Messing with proficiencies gets dangerous fast, but what about background languages/tool proficiencies? Those shouldn‘t upset the balance too much while giving players who invest into int some small mechanical benefit. How about adjusting bonus languages and tool proficiencies by the int mod?

Any major balance concerns?
I did pretty much this in a campaign. If you started at level 1 with +1 int, you got an additional tool or language. +2 gave two, etc. ASIs in int did not give anything. Nobody played a wizard in that campaign, so I can't speak to how fair that is. But it worked fine for the others.
There were no penalties for int below 10, though.

[Shuruke]

I actually meant that a 12 int char gets to pick another language or tool proficiency, while a 8 int char is too stupid to be a proper hermit and never learned how to properly use that kit (has to drop one tool or language from the background).

A dm I play for has half your int mod rounded down give extra language, tool, or skill

I like this because I enjoy smart characters and often have int as my 2nd stat even when not playing wizard

[diplomancer]

I like this idea, but I would make it less powerful for Wizards. You can always say that they are using their big brains to order the multiverse to their bidding instead of learning the language of lesser creatures.

[JNAProductions]

I like this idea, but I would make it less powerful for Wizards. You can always say that they are using their big brains to order the multiverse to their bidding instead of learning the language of lesser creatures.

I don't see the need to call Wizards out. They're supposed to be smart! What breaks if they know a lot of languages?

The MOST I would do is encourage Wizard players to have their PCs learn exotic languages, like Infernal or Celestial, to represent their eclectic learning.

[Man_Over_Game]

Not that I'm 100% against the idea, but what makes more sense: A bard to have more languages, or a wizard?

[Vogie]

Instead of giving it for free, I'd create some method of picking up languages and tools via downtime, and the higher intelligence score reduces (or increases, if negative) the amount of downtime needed to pick up those languages and tools


Not that I'm 100% against the idea, but what makes more sense: A bard to have more languages, or a wizard?

Depends on the Bard or the Wizard.

A world traveling Bard would know more living languages than the wizard that never leaves their tower who just knows common and how to read their original master's script as an apprentice, or even a plethora of dead languages.
An exploring, travelling wizard may desire to know all of the languages to have no limits on their knowledge, while the local pianoman would know common and bad common.

[Man_Over_Game]

Instead of giving it for free, I'd create some method of picking up languages and tools via downtime, and the higher intelligence score reduces (or increases, if negative) the amount of downtime needed to pick up those languages and tools



Depends on the Bard or the Wizard.

A world traveling Bard would know more living languages than the wizard that never leaves their tower who just knows common and how to read their original master's script as an apprentice, or even a plethora of dead languages.
An exploring, travelling wizard may desire to know all of the languages to have no limits on their knowledge, while the local pianoman would know common and bad common.


The thing your tropes have in common is that they're both travelers. But in that case, it'd best be reflected by a background, which already can offer a variable number of languages and tools.

Thinking about it, though, I'm not sure if a Wizard would need help learning languages. They're one of the classes that can afford to pick up Tongues, and Comprehend Languages is a ritual for them. Tools is another thing, but I'm not sure if Intelligence is a good option if it's only going to be used for learning tools.

[JNAProductions]

If you feel Bards should have more languages, then give them more languages.

I doubt anyone's going to be too upset if Bards get the added line:


Languages: Any three common languages

In their proficiencies block.

[Man_Over_Game]

If you feel Bards should have more languages, then give them more languages.

I doubt anyone's going to be too upset if Bards get the added line:



In their proficiencies block.

It's not about that. It's that OP is trying to improve intelligence by adding a mechanic, and then justifying that mechanic as a narrative choice.

But the narrative choice doesn't always make much sense (like with the comparison of Bards vs. Wizards). People generally learn a language a lot better when they're using it, not when they're learning it. Many people take a second language course and forget it in a couple years.

I agree that intelligence should be improved, I just don't think that languages and tools are the best way of going about it.

[NaughtyTiger]

Not that I'm 100% against the idea, but what makes more sense: A bard to have more languages, or a wizard?

In my real-world experience, the wizard more than the bard. (based on education and experience in US, which is biased, I admit)

In the 70-80s, PhDs in engineering were required to learn a second language and reference reports in that language.

Comedians and musicians rarely know anything outside of their base language (except into English, and that is usually parroted and incorrect idioms)
It is a huge deal that Eddie Izzard does his comedy routine in 3 languages.

Religious leaders tend to be very studious (latin, hebrew, aramaic) or very charismatic (but only English), so clerics would reasonably lean one way or the other.

[Bloodcloud]

I'd go so far as granting an extra skill for high int. Every point of bonus grant an extra language or tool, and starting at +3 and above grants an extra skill.

Single stat class now have a reason to invest in int as a high secondary.

[JNAProductions]

I'd go so far as granting an extra skill for high int. Every point of bonus grant an extra language or tool, and starting at +3 and above grants an extra skill.

Single stat class now have a reason to invest in int as a high secondary.

I'd make it at +2.

Otherwise, you can ONLY get an extra skill as an Int-Boosting race.

[Chronos]

There are already rules for learning additional language/tool proficiencies in downtime. A little time and a few hundred gold is a very low price for an ability, which says that the game design places a low value on it, which says that other ways of getting that benefit are unlikely to be unbalancing.

[Sigreid]

The Xanather's rules have smart people learn skills, languages and tools faster and cheaper, so there is that.

[ChiefBigFeather]

Not that I'm 100% against the idea, but what makes more sense: A bard to have more languages, or a wizard?

Since Languages mean read and write, definitely wizard.

Knowing languages in middle aged Europe was a thing of the learned men. Traveling commoners could often communicate in those mixed languages used in many ports, but that‘s what I suppose common is.

Someone who can read and write several languages is someone I would call educated, and int is the education stat. So I think it makes perfect sense.

Besides: This shouldn‘t break balance in any way because anyone can learn new languages and tools for a small fee.

[Gryndle]

Since Languages mean read and write, definitely wizard.

Knowing languages in middle aged Europe was a thing of the learned men. Traveling commoners could often communicate in those mixed languages used in many ports, but that‘s what I suppose common is.

Someone who can read and write several languages is someone I would call educated, and int is the education stat. So I think it makes perfect sense.

Besides: This shouldn‘t break balance in any way because anyone can learn new languages and tools for a small fee.

I agree with most of your point. BUT I would caution against INT = educated. Education does not signify intelligence either in the real world or the game rules. Plenty of educated idiots out there alongside highly intelligent folks with no higher education whatsoever.

[diplomancer]

I don't see the need to call Wizards out. They're supposed to be smart! What breaks if they know a lot of languages?

The MOST I would do is encourage Wizard players to have their PCs learn exotic languages, like Infernal or Celestial, to represent their eclectic learning.

My reasoning to not allow this benefit for Wizards (or to allow it less, perhaps) is that we know exactly what benefits a Wizard gets from his Intelligence, and the fluff is that he is using his intelligence to get these benefits (i.e, he spends most of his spare time studying spells).

A character that gets no mechanical benefit from higher intelligence can be supposed to be using his higher intelligence to study languages or tools.

Obviously, nothing of this is "overpowered", and if, as a DM, you want a setting where Wizards are known for knowing lots more languages than other characters, go for it.

[JNAProductions]

Do fighters not get encumbrance from strength, since they have fighting muscles?

Or clerics don’t get Perception from wisdom, since that’s religious wisdom?

Seems unneeded and arbritrary.