Witch Bolt on a Draconic Sorcerer?

[Galithar]

Now we all know Witch Bolt is generally regarded as a useless spell, but from levels 2-4 it seems pretty dangerous on a Draconic Sorcerer.

1d12 is decent enough damage. Repeating for free? That's nice. But if you have the lightning type in your Draconic ancestry?

1d12+3 (or more if rolling) seems to be pretty good.

So let's not talk about the flaw of it being broken easily, that's been beat to death. Let's just assume that perfect situation where your Barbarian/Rogue buddy is going to grapple them with Advantage and expertise in Athletics. What else can you do to boost this spell? Preferably at low level where it might get some niche use and when Cantrip damage isn't superior to it.

Evocation Wizards can add Int mod, but that's a level 10 feature. There's no way to make RAW Witch Bolt good at level 10+.

What are other RAW options? To make this useless spell useable for 1-3 levels early game?

[Daghoulish]

But draconic sorcerer's don't get to add Chr to damage until level 6. Making your example of 1-4 not as worthwhile, especially because it takes one of the 4-6 spells that a sorcerer knows.

[Galithar]

But draconic sorcerer's don't get to add Chr to damage until level 6. Making your example of 1-4 not as worthwhile, especially because it takes one of the 4-6 spells that a sorcerer knows.

Doh! I somehow thought they got that at level 2 lol

Okay, so are there ANY ways to boost it as written before level 5 when it becomes useless from not scaling?

Edit: Also the idea was to change it out for a different spell at level 5. Pick up a second level 3 spell that will actually be useful at that point.

[strangebloke]

Doh! I somehow thought they got that at level 2 lol

Okay, so are there ANY ways to boost it as written before level 5 when it becomes useless from not scaling?

Edit: Also the idea was to change it out for a different spell at level 5. Pick up a second level 3 spell that will actually be useful at that point.

Nope.

It is truly one of the worthless spells in the game as written, particularly for a sorcerer. It has a niche use case against very slow monsters with high AC and ridiculously high HP, but honestly its barely ever worth it. If you hit with it, it deals one more damage than firebolt on round 1, 3.5 more damage on all future rounds. Somewhere around round four it becomes slightly better than just casting magic missile and using all your actions for fire bolt, but that's assuming you get to keep it up that long and assuming that you even hit when you first cast it.

To add insult to injury, the draconic bit only gets applied to one damage roll.

when you cast a spell that deals damage of the type associated with your draconic ancestry, you can add your Charisma modifier to one damage roll of that spell

So, uh, yeah. Sucks to suck. If you aren't in AL you may be able to talk to your DM about any number of fixes. There's a great thread open right now on the topic. Personally I treat it as a concentration spell where you can freely move it between targets, making an attack roll every time you switch. I also add a slight scaling effect.

Honestly, though? Don't fixate too hard on the elemental theming with your dragon sorcerer. They get free mage armor and an HP boost, and the +CHA to damage is just icing. You go draconic for the AC and HP, as opposed to everything else.

[Galithar]

Just for clarity I was just curious about trying to make a niche use for the spell and don't plan to try this in a game. It was just a thought exercise that is failing hard lol

I even tried coming up with ways to make it useable at high levels by stacking modifiers, but you can never get enough for it to matter, especially since 5e is allergic to stacking.

I did find my niche case that works though. Hexblade curse can add a whopping 2 (proficiency at that level) damage. But only to one target per short rest... So still not enough to make it worth it.

[Phoenix042]

Go variant human, tempest cleric. Take magic initiate and grab witch bolt.

At 2nd level, tempest clerics gain the ability to maximize lightning damage they roll once per short rest. This means that your initial attack with which bolt goes from 6.5 average damage on a hit to 12. When your cleric reaches 3rd level, they could throw out a maximized 2nd level witch bolt for 24 damage. For reference, scorching ray averages 21 if all three rays hit, and does a slightly worse type of damage (though it doesn't interrupt concentration or have a meager 30ft range). This isn't any better than a thunderwave at this point though.

Even matched against the mighty fireball, this maximized witch bolt does more damage to a single target (36 at 3rd level). Obviously a lightning bolt would do much more, but tempest clerics do not have access to the spell lightning bolt without multiclassing. Call lightning is the next best bet at 3rd level, but only does 3d10 (though it is an AoE, has a longer range, and that 3d10 can be called down on other targets for the duration).

As a solution for dealing large amounts of single target damage, an upcast and maximized witch bolt is... Well, it's not objectively inferior to all other options no matter the situation.

Note that unlike every other option the cleric has for maximizing spells, the witch bolt can crit. This means two things: A lucky tempest cleric can potentially maximize a MUCH bigger damage roll than normal sometimes, and a tempest cleric /. assassin can auto-crit with witch bolt, then maximize the resulting damage roll.

At 20th level we could cast witch bolt in a 9th level slot and do (9 dice, times two for crit = 18, times 12 damage = 216 damage).

So that's an interesting interaction, anyways. A super-short ranged magic sniper.

EDIT:
All of which is of course negated when I just now remembered that grabbing magic initiate does not give a caster the ability to upcast unless they choose spell from their class list.

So that sucks.

Ok, well an assassin 3, tempest cleric 2, sorcerer 15 actually still gets 9th level slots. In fact, all you need is one level in a class that grants you witch bolt for this to work. You could go cleric 16 and sorcerer 1, or cleric 11 and sorcerer 6, or w/e.

Actually, this gets interesting. You can twin a witch bolt, and clerics get two uses of channel divinity at 6th level, so if you go at least that far into cleric before switching to sorcerer, you can potentially twin a maximized 9th level witch bolt and hit two targets (within 30ft, obviously) for a whopping 216 damage each. Actually 221, counting the dragon sorcerer's 6th level feature.

If you grab spell sniper the range of this improves a lot (60ft really isn't THAT terrible).

Not sure about any other ways to mess with this combo though...

[Shuruke]

The Draconic sorcerer doesn't get the feature increasing damage by cha till level 6
(Skip to bottom to ignore math)

So even then it isn't good because
1d12+cha (6.5+cha)
Verse
Shocking grasp 2d8+cha (9+cha)


For witchbolt to be better damage wise
You'd need to factor in to hit %

Lets say 55%
And cha of +4

Witch bolt including crit 6.625

Shocking grasp. 8.25 counting crit

Second turn
Witch bolt 10.5. (17.125)
Shocking grasp 8.25 (16.5)
Difference .625
Third turn
Witch bolt 27.625
Shocking grasp 24.75
Difference 2.875
Will continue to do 2.25 more damage every turn


This will change with higher a.c enemies
Factoring in that its concentration and you could be doing something else with concentration.

If shocking grasp instead casts faerie fire or another advantage granting action spell like enhance ability that increases their % to 79.8

So first round

Witch bolt 6.625
Shocking grasp 0
Difference 6.625

Second
Witch bolt 10.5 (17.125)
Shocking grasp 12.574
Difference 4.551
How many turns till even (2.074 catchup a turn ) 2.19
By the 5th turn shocking grasp with advantage every turn is better.

Compare this to chromatic orb lightning followed by shocking grasp compared to witchbolt

Chromatic orb
11.175
Witchbolt
6.625
Difference 4.55
Second turn
Shocking grasp 8.25

Witchbolt 10.5
Difference. 2.25
Total difference second turn 2.35
Meaning it'll take 2 more turns to surpass chromatic orb shocking grasp.



In short
At 55% to hit (Generally where it sits)

Just shocking grasp +cha compared to witchbolt+cha
Witchbolt is ahead by less than 1 damage on average by second turn but increases by 2.25 every turn pulling ahead considerably during something like a boss fight


However
If shocking grasp has advantage every attack (faerie fire or etc )
By the 5th turn shocking grasp with advantage is better and will increase by slightly more than 2 damage a turn


Lastly chromatic orb followed by shocking grasp compared to witch bolt
It'll take 4 turns for witchbolt to surpass and gain roughly 2.25 damage thereafter


In my personal opinion
I wouldn't mind losing some damage dpr wise for having the constant witchbolt
As a sorcerer u could even double range on witch bolt or twin it changing these numbers (I personally would quicken it and then activate again if it hits)

Don't be scared to do a fun build with this because its still extremely slot efficient and if you up cast it actually still keeps up with some 2nd level spells including making it so enhance ability shocking grasp doesn't catch up till 6th turn


Witch bolt is very reliant on the first attack. So if u can do it with advantage (familiar, an ally helping, etc)




(Someone please correct my math if it's wrong)
(Math is done assuming dm allows cha on subsequent turns)

[Shuruke]

Doh! I somehow thought they got that at level 2 lol

Okay, so are there ANY ways to boost it as written before level 5 when it becomes useless from not scaling?

Edit: Also the idea was to change it out for a different spell at level 5. Pick up a second level 3 spell that will actually be useful at that point.

At level 3 u get metamagic as sorcerer

Twinned is strong with witchbolt especially if an ally such as druid used entangle

Quicken - not sure if raw but bonus action cast action use again (or use ranged cantrip like ray of frost to slow them)

Empowered- re rolling a d12 would increase damage on first it by averagely 1 however if u roll a 1 or 2 empower could be nice

[Galithar]

Go variant human, tempest cleric. Take magic initiate and grab witch bolt.

At 2nd level, tempest clerics gain the ability to maximize lightning damage they roll once per short rest. This means that your initial attack with which bolt goes from 6.5 average damage on a hit to 12. When your cleric reaches 3rd level, they could throw out a maximized 2nd level witch bolt for 24 damage. For reference, scorching ray averages 21 if all three rays hit, and does a slightly worse type of damage (though it doesn't interrupt concentration or have a meager 30ft range). This isn't any better than a thunderwave at this point though.

Even matched against the mighty fireball, this maximized witch bolt does more damage to a single target (36 at 3rd level). Obviously a lightning bolt would do much more, but tempest clerics do not have access to the spell lightning bolt without multiclassing. Call lightning is the next best bet at 3rd level, but only does 3d10 (though it is an AoE, has a longer range, and that 3d10 can be called down on other targets for the duration).

As a solution for dealing large amounts of single target damage, an upcast and maximized thunder bolt is... Well, it's not totally worthless.

Note that unlike every other option the cleric has for maximizing spells, the witch bolt can crit. This means two things: A lucky tempest cleric can potentially maximize a MUCH bigger damage roll than normal sometimes, and a tempest cleric /. assassin can auto-crit with witch bolt, then maximize the resulting damage roll.

At 20th level we could cast witch bolt in a 9th level slot and do (9 dice, times two for crit = 18, times 12 damage = 216 damage).

So that's an interesting interaction, anyways. A super-short ranged magic sniper.

Okay, what about this.
Tempest Cleric 2. Maximized Damage
Diviner Wizard X. Waiting for that Nat 20 portent roll.
Spell Sniper feet. It has an attack roll so you can double it's range.

Turn one against an enemy Max level slot maximized from 60 feet using a portent crit!

Super niche, requires getting that Nat 20 roll still, but you can get the roll and then choose to use this strategy to nuke someone. If you don't get it you play like normal. A heavy? Armored wizard with minor healing utility. But when the stars align? That's some incredible damage. I'd use a ninth level spell for 216 damage guaranteed.

[Phoenix042]

Another note unrelated to my cleric idea: A sorcerer / fighter with quicken and action surge can trigger the damage from this spell three times in a turn by using quicken, then using their regular action to trigger the damage, then using their action surge to trigger the damage again. Only does 4d12 damage and burns 2 out of 3 sorcery points and action surge AND a 2nd level slot, but if you can find some way to stack a rider effect onto each roll that could get interesting.


For comparison, a hexblade / fighter at that level could be dealing something more like 4d10 + 24 damage with eldritch blast and action surge after marking the target with hexblades' curse.

[Shuruke]

Another note unrelated to my cleric idea: A sorcerer / fighter with quicken and action surge can trigger the damage from this spell three times in a turn by using quicken, then using their regular action to trigger the damage, then using their action surge to trigger the damage again. Only does 4d12 damage and burns 2 out of 3 sorcery points and action surge AND a 2nd level slot, but if you can find some way to stack a rider effect onto each roll that could get interesting.


For comparison, a hexblade / fighter at that level could be dealing something more like 4d10 + 24 damage with eldritch blast and action surge after marking the target with hexblades' curse.

I don't feel like doing math
But if you have advantage only on first attack the 2d12 (9.75) would be comparable to 1d10+4 (6.725) if u assume a 55% chance to hit counting advantage (14 +bonuses to hit)
All other attacks would be at 35% hit
So a 1d12 (7.5) compared to 1d10+4 (3.325)

*note this is a hyperbole because I doubt you'd fight 20+ a.c. targets at level 6 often. But Witch bolt on first attack having advantage could be pretty good as a tempest cleric fighter sorc mix to do 2 triggers in 1 turn. Compared to Someone doing 2 attacks.

[Chronos]

If you're a tempest cleric, you'd rather use your Channel Divinities on Shatter, which does more damage (and gains more from maximizing) and is an area of effect. And, incidentally, is also a domain spell, so you don't need to do anything to get it, not even taking up one of your preparations.

[Damon_Tor]

It has a niche use case against very slow monsters with high AC and ridiculously high HP.

No, it doesn't.

[Galithar]

If you're a tempest cleric, you'd rather use your Channel Divinities on Shatter, which does more damage (and gains more from maximizing) and is an area of effect. And, incidentally, is also a domain spell, so you don't need to do anything to get it, not even taking up one of your preparations.

Actually it does equal damage (maximized) at the same level (2) and scales slower. Sure it's an AoE, but if I'm going for maximum damage to the BBEG? Crit maximized Witch Bolt beats it everytime. Let the Wizard deal with mobs with fireballs :P

Edit: Also if I'm using the build I suggested earlier (Tempest Cleric/Diviner Wizard) I'll get Chain Lightning eventually which is a far better spell to maximize for AoE damage then Shatter.

[Misterwhisper]

No, it doesn't.

I think a lot of people read the scaling damage wrong and think it is worth a spell slot to cast.

[JPicasso]

If your buddy has booming blade, the target is danged if he does, and danged if he doesn't.

But other than previously somehow immobilizing the target, it's not a great spell. It's more fun VS the PCs.

[Galithar]

If your buddy has booming blade, the target is danged if he does, and danged if he doesn't.

But other than previously somehow immobilizing the target, it's not a great spell. It's more fun VS the PCs.

I think it's a fantastic concept, but without some serious investment it's always subpar by a lot.

I think it could be fixed though. One of my favorite ideas is to let all the damage scale, but remove the auto hit portion and increase the range. It deals 1d12 lightning damage and increases but 1d12 for every two spell levels over first. (So 2d12 at 3rd, 3d12 at 5th, 4d12 at 7th and 5d12 at 9th) for the duration you may repeat the action as long as the target is within 60 feet. Roll a ranged spell attack for each action.

Alternatively, you could give a Dex save on subsequent rounds either to end the effect or take half damage.
I think it might see some use with either option, but I haven't really crunched numbers for balance on either of them. So it might need tweaking and play testing.

Edit: Even with serious investment it's recurring effect is never worth it. And it's initial effect is still super niche to the Tempest Cleric Diviner build.

[strangebloke]

No, it doesn't.

If you do manage to hit with the first shot and keep it on for a very long time, it does eventually become an efficient usage of a spellslot.

If the creature doesn't move to cover, or out of thirty foot range.
If you don't miss.
If you had nothing better to do with your concentration/action.
If you don't lose concentration.
If the fight drags on for longer than four rounds or more.

if if if.

It's super bad. One of the worst spells in the game. But theoretically sometimes it works okay.

Were I going to actually try and use this spell regularly, I'd play a winged tiefling evocation wizard, and try to get various boosts to concentration. Harder to get cover from when he's flying right over you head!