Lore Bard [help]

[Deadandamnation]

Hi there,
Me and my group are gonna transition from a path Adventure into 5ed.

I was a Human Bard there focused on Archery.

The group consist of:
1) dwarf Barbarian
2) Human Fighter (S&B)
3) Elf Sorceress
4) Halfiling Rogue/Wiz/AT
5) Me

I was thinking about transition my char into a pure Caster/BC/Healer/Skill-Monkey.

Half-Elf Lore Bard with the Urchin BG replacing the Halfiling into Trapfinding since he should completely change Class.

Until lvl 10 I assume to go full Bard, taking:
Counterspell, Aura Of Vitality, Fly and another Spell (probably Evard's or Bigby Hand)

Now my concernings are those:

A) With a starting 16 Dex my AC is 15 that really suck
B) My At-Will damage Is lacking some punch

I was thinking about going for a 2 Warlock levels (but i can't take Hexblade) that would fix the DPR part with Eldritch Blast+Agonizing and sometime Hex. I could also take an extra +1 AC with Armor of Shadow or any other Invocation.

Else i could take Cleric level for Guidance, Medium Armor, Shield, Life Boost on Aura of Vitality or Knowledge and a Better damage cantrip than Vicious Mockery. That bring me to 18 AC vs 16.

Or Just Stick with Bard?

We should start at 11 or 12 iirc and any feat or book different from PHB should be banned.

Also i'd like suggestions on Magical Secrets spells.

Thanks

[Wizard_Lizard]

I would say stick with bard, with maybe a sprinkle of warlock.
My two favourite pcs have been either full warlock or full bard. Although they are only aboutt third level so far.

[diplomancer]

If you can't take Hexblade and have the WIS for it, one level of cleric is better than 2 of Warlock. 2 levels of Warlock is too big a price to pay to improve damage. Your party is big enough, help THEM do more damage and you will contribute more than enough. AC matters though, you won't contribute as much if you are being hit all the time and losing concentration. Without the Feats to improve your concentration, you are going to lose it a lot without a good AC. As a Bard X/Cleric 1, you will be one spell level behind every odd level until level 17, but your slots will be the same as that of a Bard X+1. It's a good trade-off.

Great Magical secrets for Lore Bard are Counterspell and Find Greater Steed (since your DM is not allowing Xanathar , try to convince him that, in truth, Find Greater Steed is just an upcast Find Steed... I feel designers forgot to add an option for upcasting Find Steed to get better mounts at higher levels and published Find Greater Steed as a patch; when I was playing a Paladin before Xanathar was published, my DM was totally Ok with allowing me to get CR1 creatures with a 3rd level slot, CR2 creatures with a 4th level, etc. If he is adamant, Find Steed is still a good choice, but obviously not as good).

Other nice choices are Telekinesis and Aura of Vitality if you are the main healer (but only out of combat, your concentration is too useful in combat for it, and it depends also on how plentiful gold for buying potions of healing is).

Considering the DM limitation to PHB, no feat, I recommend Life Cleric 1 (that extra point of AC counts for a lot)/Bard X, Counterspell, Aura of Vitality, Find (Greater) Steed and Telekinesis.

[Mitsu]

Hi there,
Me and my group are gonna transition from a path Adventure into 5ed.

I was a Human Bard there focused on Archery.

The group consist of:
1) dwarf Barbarian
2) Human Fighter (S&B)
3) Elf Sorceress
4) Halfiling Rogue/Wiz/AT
5) Me

I was thinking about transition my char into a pure Caster/BC/Healer/Skill-Monkey.

Half-Elf Lore Bard with the Urchin BG replacing the Halfiling into Trapfinding since he should completely change Class.

Until lvl 10 I assume to go full Bard, taking:
Counterspell, Aura Of Vitality, Fly and another Spell (probably Evard's or Bigby Hand)

Now my concernings are those:

A) With a starting 16 Dex my AC is 15 that really suck
B) My At-Will damage Is lacking some punch

I was thinking about going for a 2 Warlock levels (but i can't take Hexblade) that would fix the DPR part with Eldritch Blast+Agonizing and sometime Hex. I could also take an extra +1 AC with Armor of Shadow or any other Invocation.

Else i could take Cleric level for Guidance, Medium Armor, Shield, Life Boost on Aura of Vitality or Knowledge and a Better damage cantrip than Vicious Mockery. That bring me to 18 AC vs 16.

Or Just Stick with Bard?

We should start at 11 or 12 iirc and any feat or book different from PHB should be banned.

Also i'd like suggestions on Magical Secrets spells.

Thanks

Few things to start:

1. As lore Bard you won't focus on Archery, period.
2. If you want reliable DPR - take 2 levels of Warlock. If you can't take Hexblade, GOO is nice for his telepathy if you enjoy playing social game. Any other Warlock is fine for 2 levels.
3. Why are you worried that much about AC? You won't be at front lines. You are a backline caster.
4. Your spell selection from Magic Secrets is little weird, why take Fly or Bigby when you can take much more powerful spells? Here is what I would suggest for each magic secrets:

Level 6: Counterspell, Conjure Animals. Conjure Animals not only gives you huge dmg and DPR (more here: https://www.reddit.com/r/3d6/comments/blwwcc/a_damage_analysis_of_conjure_animals/) but also gives you tons of utility like giving flying mount (or any mount) to every member of your team (including swimming ones), Proning enemies, tanking or giving yourself a great flying mount (no need for Greater Steed) when needed etc. Other spells from this level: Fireball to help your damage is a solid pick, Spirit Guardians are great but not for caster-bard, if you were Swords or Valor that would be much better pick.

Level 10: Sickening Radiance is great spell as it combos with your Forcecage later and it's a boss killer. Second great spell is Wall of Force. Excellent spell to CC enemies. Next we have Banishment, Revivify, Circle of Power, Telekinesis.

Level 14: Simulacrum obvious choice as first one. Then some other great spells like Reverse Gravity, Resurrection, Heal, Divine Word, Disintegrate

Level 18: Wish as obvious choice. Other strongest contenders are: Prismatic Wall (combos well with Reverse Gravity, Force Cage and Repelling Blast), True Resurrection, Imprisonment.

5. If you really want to have better armor, just dip one level of Life Cleric for Armor + Healing Boost. However, I would not dip unless you see you need to. Pure Lore Bard is imo best caster in the game when he chose his spells right so I would not dip until at least level 10.

Also- why you can't take Hexblade?

[Deadandamnation]

Few things to start:

1. As lore Bard you won't focus on Archery, period.
2. If you want reliable DPR - take 2 levels of Warlock. If you can't take Hexblade, GOO is nice for his telepathy if you enjoy playing social game. Any other Warlock is fine for 2 levels.
3. Why are you worried that much about AC? You won't be at front lines. You are a backline caster.
4. Your spell selection from Magic Secrets is little weird, why take Fly or Bigby when you can take much more powerful spells? Here is what I would suggest for each magic secrets:

Level 6: Counterspell, Conjure Animals. Conjure Animals not only gives you huge dmg and DPR (more here: https://www.reddit.com/r/3d6/comments/blwwcc/a_damage_analysis_of_conjure_animals/) but also gives you tons of utility like giving flying mount (or any mount) to every member of your team (including swimming ones), Proning enemies, tanking or giving yourself a great flying mount (no need for Greater Steed) when needed etc. Other spells from this level: Fireball to help your damage is a solid pick, Spirit Guardians are great but not for caster-bard, if you were Swords or Valor that would be much better pick.

Level 10: Sickening Radiance is great spell as it combos with your Forcecage later and it's a boss killer. Second great spell is Wall of Force. Excellent spell to CC enemies. Next we have Banishment, Revivify, Circle of Power, Telekinesis.

Level 14: Simulacrum obvious choice as first one. Then some other great spells like Reverse Gravity, Resurrection, Heal, Divine Word, Disintegrate

Level 18: Wish as obvious choice. Other strongest contenders are: Prismatic Wall (combos well with Reverse Gravity, Force Cage and Repelling Blast), True Resurrection, Imprisonment.

5. If you really want to have better armor, just dip one level of Life Cleric for Armor + Healing Boost. However, I would not dip unless you see you need to. Pure Lore Bard is imo best caster in the game when he chose his spells right so I would not dip until at least level 10.

Also- why you can't take Hexblade?

1) Archery was the focus of my old Bard in Pathfinder, where It was probably the best DPR of the party.

3) I'm worried because i'm pretty good at the game while my teamates sucks (combat speaking of course), they can't think tactical...so there's no backline, Frontline...Just ppl who Charge the Shadows anytime while I mostly have to save them. I got my mates trapped into a gelatinous cube once since the answer is always 'chaaaarge'
:(

4) You are right! I know the Power of Conjure, skipped It Just coz It feels too lame. Probably Telek Is a right Choice, while Fireball really appeal to me even if our sorceress really like to Blast pretty much anything that breath (sometimes even things that don't)

6) I can't be a Hexblade since is not on PHB

[OgataiKhan]

I second what diplomancer said, Warlock is not worth it without Hexblade.

Cleric 1 gives you medium armour, shields, Guidance, and if you pick an Arcana Cleric you get a free skill proficiency and Fire Bolt.
Sure, it's not as good as EB + Agonizing Blast, but it's a decent cantrip and you usually have better things to do than just dealing damage (although you can when needed later on, with Fireball and Animate Objects).

[Deadandamnation]

I second what diplomancer said, Warlock is not worth it without Hexblade.

Cleric 1 gives you medium armour, shields, Guidance, and if you pick an Arcana Cleric you get a free skill proficiency and Fire Bolt.
Sure, it's not as good as EB + Agonizing Blast, but it's a decent cantrip and you usually have better things to do than just dealing damage (although you can when needed later on, with Fireball and Animate Objects).

Does the cantrips i get use CHA or WIS to hit? Since Firebolt with 13 wis is pretty meh.

[diplomancer]

Worry about your AC. Worry about it even more if you are concentrating on a Conjure Animals spell. If your enemies are playing any smart, they WILL target you, with ranged attacks if necessary, even with disadvantage. And if your AC sucks they WILL hit you, and you will lose concentration and lose all your nice pets. (conjure animals is a very good spell, but since you are starting at higher levels, I think animate objects is better for combat, and you don't need to use a Magic Secrets for it. Magic Secrets that require concentration should be considerably better than your non-magic secrets choices). Life Cleric gives you Heavy Armor, even if you don't take it at first level, which is why I think it is the better choice. I love a knowledge Cleric dip on a Lore Bard, but on a featless game where you are the only Healer in the party Life cleric is probably better.

About getting a good damage cantrip from Cleric, the main problem is that you will be using your Wisdom for it (and any cantrip which is not Agonizing Blast Eldritch Blast sucks for damage). Guiding bolt is a good 1st level choice, though, if you are facing creatures with good saves but not good AC, since Bards have ZERO spells that target AC. Radiant damage is probably the best damage.

Really, though, if what your party likes to do is "charge!", try to improve their damage, not your own. That's what bards are for.

[Mitsu]

1) Archery was the focus of my old Bard in Pathfinder, where It was probably the best DPR of the party.

3) I'm worried because i'm pretty good at the game while my teamates sucks (combat speaking of course), they can't think tactical...so there's no backline, Frontline...Just ppl who Charge the Shadows anytime while I mostly have to save them. I got my mates trapped into a gelatinous cube once since the answer is always 'chaaaarge'
:(

4) You are right! I know the Power of Conjure, skipped It Just coz It feels too lame. Probably Telek Is a right Choice, while Fireball really appeal to me even if our sorceress really like to Blast pretty much anything that breath (sometimes even things that don't)

6) I can't be a Hexblade since is not on PHB

If you want to be Archer Bard, go Valor Bard with Swift Quiver on level 10 magic Secrets. Dip 1 level Fighter for Archery Style. Take Sharpshooter and focus on DEX. Downside is - your CHA will suck for a long time because your ASI will all go towards being Archer.

I don't know Pathfinder, but in 5e being effective Archer requires a lot of commitment in build, taking ASI, fighting style, having extra attack etc.

If you really want to stay Bard and Lore Bard- get 1 level of Life Cleric. That will give you AC boost + healing boost.

However, again - without Agonizing Blast or being melee bard- your Damage will suck unless you focus on Conjuring Animals (which is great way for great DPR in combat), which can be spread to occupy a lot of enemies (tanking for at least 1-2 turns for your team) or swarming 1 target which is basically your single target big DPR. In huge open spaces Elks can do insanse dmg. In close spaces Velocyraptors/Wolfs/Flying Snakes are best focusing 1-2 targets (depends if you upcast). Giant Octopus auto restrain targets they hit and have respectable HP. Good to keep some dangerous melee guys CCed. Giant Owls with grapple in open space can really mess enemies. They can also serve as your bodyguards.

However, if you team sucks so much I would focus on carrying them, so just making sure their idiotic charges are successful. Therefore as I already mentioned in my spell selection, I would focus on Battlefield Control first and foremost. Forget buffs if your teammates are idiots- no buff will help that.

However by dropping Conjure Animals on enemies or key enemies (like casters), closing others in Wall of Force/Force Cage (FC + Sickening Radiance is dead sentence), Hypnotic Pattern them (with disadvantage to save if you use Instrument of Bard) etc. you can ensure that encounter will end with success.

So I would go Lore Bard 6/1 Life Cleric.

If your team is constantly requiring healing between combat, I strongly suggest to take at level 10 Magic Secrets Healing Spirit from Druid. This is strongest, best out-of-combat healing spell and with Life Cleric level even more. This will bring your team back to full HP between encounters so you don't have to waste more slots on healing between and in combat.

Also remember- in 5e healing in combat only starts being useful once your teammate is 0 HP. Before that it can be just waste of slot. And between encounters - Healing Spirit.

[diplomancer]

snip

If your team is constantly requiring healing between combat, I strongly suggest to take at level 10 Magic Secrets Healing Spirit from Druid. This is strongest, best out-of-combat healing spell and with Life Cleric level even more. This will bring your team back to full HP between encounters so you don't have to waste more slots on healing between and in combat.

Also remember- in 5e healing in combat only starts being useful once your teammate is 0 HP. Before that it can be just waste of slot. And between encounters - Healing Spirit.

Healing Spirit is a great out of combat healing spell, the bigger the party the better. Alas, it is not in the PHB, and thus not a choice.

[Mitsu]

Healing Spirit is a great out of combat healing spell, the bigger the party the better. Alas, it is not in the PHB, and thus not a choice.

My bad then, I have always been playing with all available books so I totally don't remember what is from what book.

But OP, I got you covered! There is solution to that!

You can take Goodberries from Druid. With Life Cleric Disciple of Life, each Good berry will heal for 2 + spell level. So from 1st level slots each goodberry will hael for 4 HP. From 2nd level slot for 5, from 5 level slot for 8 per berry, as per Sage Advice:

"The Disciple of Life feature would make each berry restore 4 hit points, instead of 1, assuming you cast goodberry with a 1st-level spell slot."

So you just burn all your slots before long rest andyou have HUNDREDS OF HP stored in goodberries for next 24hours. This will heal every party member to full few times between each encounter :)

[Keravath]

First, some folks have suggested Healing Spirit and Arcana Cleric. Healing spirit is from Xanathars and Arcana Cleric is Sword Coast Adventurers Guide. The OP indicated that the game was PHB only and no feats (though it wasn't clear if it was PHB feats only or none at all).

If you want to be really good at additional skills then one level of Knowledge cleric will give you two additional skills and expertise. Cleric also gives you proficiency with medium or heavy armor and shields, some useful first level spells (bless can be useful at almost any level), healing word from cleric frees a bard spell slot. The other option would be life cleric which gives heavy armor and a small boost to all of your healing spells. What your AC ends up at and how well it all works together depends on your stats and how they are determined.

If you are playing without any feats then your choices are more limited. A bard archer doesn't necessarily work as well without some investment in sharpshooter and possibly cross bow expert. You would also need to be a valor bard in order to get extra attack at 6th level. Playing without feats also means that options like the Medium armor feat that gives proficiency with medium armor and shields won't be an option.

From practical experience, I have a 13 level character, 11 lore bard/2 hexblade warlock and (in my opinion) the benefits from the warlock dip have far exceeded the cost of delayed spell progression. There was one combat we were in against a draco lich and other creatures, they had magic resistance, maybe even legendary saves/lair actions, and agonizing blast was pretty much the only way I was doing any damage since spells just didn't work and vicious mockery was a pathetic 3d4 damage IF they failed the save (which they didn't). We had two bards with a warlock dip in that party (I think the other was a swords bard) and both were doing reliable damage due to agonizing blast. However, in addition to that, 2 levels of warlock includes two first level spell slots, and some very useful invocations. Hexblade is the best choice unfortunately, but others can be made to work if needed.

In general though, you will want to use spells like blindness/hypnotic pattern/suggestion/polymorph/animate objects/faerie fire/dissonant whispers to provide party support along with crowd control and debuff opponents to make them easier to deal with.

I found the following to be decent magical secrets choices in the games I was playing in:
Level 6: Counterspell/Fireball
Level 10: Wall of Force/Circle of Power

Circle of power is situational but it can be a game changer when you are faced with a caster heavy opponent. Wall of Force is a very flexible tool for crowd control. Fireball was just for fun and because you never know when an AoE damage spell might be useful (the characters in the party I was playing in can change so I couldn't rely on having a wizard/sorcerer to cover this).

Find greater steed is better than Find Steed as a magical secret however it is also from Xanathars guide.

Finally, either a 1 cleric or 2 warlock dip can work. In your case, they provide different things unless you can take feats from the PHB. Unfortunately, a lore bard will never be a very effective archer in 5e since they are limited to one attack/ATTACK action.

P.S. As mentioned, a 1 level life cleric dip combined with Goodberry as a magical secret can give an immense amount of healing depending on how many spell slots you convert to goodberries the night before when you start your rest.

[Tallytrev813]

I wouldn’t dip unless I could dip into Hexblade at lvl 7, AC wise the shield prof helps. I looked into Life Cleric dip for Heavy Armor prof, but imo not worth it. You have control spells and cutting words you’ll survive.

For spells, I always take Counterspell priority 1. Jack of all Trades make you the best Counterspell caster there is.

If you want to play healsies, take Aura of Vitality - but honestly IYAM the spell I always take #2 if I have 2+ melee’s is Crusaders mantle. Adding a damage die to each melee attack is really strong, especially for your fighter who will get a boatload of attacks

[diplomancer]

I wouldn’t dip unless I could dip into Hexblade at lvl 7, AC wise the shield prof helps. I looked into Life Cleric dip for Heavy Armor prof, but imo not worth it. You have control spells and cutting words you’ll survive.

For spells, I always take Counterspell priority 1. Jack of all Trades make you the best Counterspell caster there is.

If you want to play healsies, take Aura of Vitality - but honestly IYAM the spell I always take #2 if I have 2+ melee’s is Crusaders mantle. Adding a damage die to each melee attack is really strong, especially for your fighter who will get a boatload of attacks

Life Cleric dip gets both Heavy Armor and Shields Proficiency though (all Multi-classed clerics have proficiency in Medium Armor, Light Armor, and Shields). As long as you have the WIS for it, it is probably worth it, we are talking about +5 to your AC, it is like having a constant Shield spell up.

[Tallytrev813]

Life Cleric dip gets both Heavy Armor and Shields Proficiency though (all Multi-classed clerics have proficiency in Medium Armor, Light Armor, and Shields). As long as you have the WIS for it, it is probably worth it, we are talking about +5 to your AC, it is like having a constant Shield spell up.

I normally play with expertise in stealth which heavy armor essentially ruins. I just don’t like the idea of a lore bard with an instrument in heavy armor it seems silly to me and it’s not very much of an upgrade when you consider at lvl 10 or 11 whichever he mentioned they’re approaching ASI at 12 which can take his Dex to +4 anyway.

12+4 vs 18 with disadv on stealth and I think it worsens your dex saves?

[Keravath]

I normally play with expertise in stealth which heavy armor essentially ruins. I just don’t like the idea of a lore bard with an instrument in heavy armor it seems silly to me and it’s not very much of an upgrade when you consider at lvl 10 or 11 whichever he mentioned they’re approaching ASI at 12 which can take his Dex to +4 anyway.

12+4 vs 18 with disadv on stealth and I think it worsens your dex saves?

Heavy armor has no effect on dex saves directly. However, the strength requirements to wear heavy armor without reducing movement usually mean that characters wearing heavy armor have more strength and dump dex to 8 or 10 which does result in a lower dex saving throw since they often have a lower dex.

However, all clerics are proficient with medium armor and medium armor + shield with a 14 dex is only 1AC behind heavy armor. If you don't mind being 2AC behind plate you can choose to wear a breastplate which doesn't have disadvantage on stealth (my bard does this - breastplate+shield for 18AC)

[Guy Lombard-O]

I agree with Mitsu about translating your archery bard to 5e. If we're understanding you correctly, you're limited to PHB for everything, but you can do PHB feats?

She's right about Valor bard being the way to go. Gets you a decent AC with medium armor (& shields, for when protecting your concentration spell is more important than shooting). Sharpshooter and Resilient Con will take you pretty far as feats.

I actually like your picks for Magical Secrets. I played similar character, and took Fly as well (although it may well not be as optimal as flying mounts from Find Greater Steed or Conjure Animals, it's a little more stable in that beasts can die, plus FGS isn't available to you and the DM gets to pick what beasts show, so they might not be able to fly). If you go Valor, you'll obviously lose 2 MS picks. I'd probably go for something the wizard and sorcerer don't have, like the Aura or Crusader's Mantle (especially nice if one of the other casters does a Conjure Animals or Animate Objects).

[diplomancer]

No penalties to DEX saves, as mentioned, and it is actually AC 20 (shield) vs AC 16 (IF Dex is increased at 12; in a featless game, there is a very good case for raising Con instead)

If the movement penalty is a problem (find (greater) steed mitigates this), Half Plate gives you AC19.

If the disadvantage on stealth is an issue, Breastplate gives you AC18, though expertise on Stealth actually mitigates this a lot, as does Enhance Ability, a great spell for a Bard (ask your DM if you can choose two different abilities when you upcast it)

[Tallytrev813]

Heavy armor has no effect on dex saves directly. However, the strength requirements to wear heavy armor without reducing movement usually mean that characters wearing heavy armor have more strength and dump dex to 8 or 10 which does result in a lower dex saving throw since they often have a lower dex.

However, all clerics are proficient with medium armor and medium armor + shield with a 14 dex is only 1AC behind heavy armor. If you don't mind being 2AC behind plate you can choose to wear a breastplate which doesn't have disadvantage on stealth (my bard does this - breastplate+shield for 18AC)

It's def Viable, it's just that - for me - i love the Skill Monkey aspect of Bard. So i like pushing dex after Charisma for Acrobatics, Stealth, etc. ESPECIALLY slight of hand. I pick pocket and stuff, love it.

That, in combination with delaying your bard levels, just isnt worth it in my book. The only Dip i'd consider is Hexblade at lvl 7.

Especially since the guy has a Barb and a Fighter S/B in his party - i just dont think the AC is that big of a concern, whatever gets to him past that he has cutting words, counterspell, and other CC for.

With Hexblade, you get the shield in addition to a bunch of other goodies. That dip i feel i can justify.

[diplomancer]

It's def Viable, it's just that - for me - i love the Skill Monkey aspect of Bard. So i like pushing dex after Charisma for Acrobatics, Stealth, etc. ESPECIALLY slight of hand. I pick pocket and stuff, love it.

That, in combination with delaying your bard levels, just isnt worth it in my book. The only Dip i'd consider is Hexblade at lvl 7.

Especially since the guy has a Barb and a Fighter S/B in his party - i just dont think the AC is that big of a concern, whatever gets to him past that he has cutting words, counterspell, and other CC for.

With Hexblade, you get the shield in addition to a bunch of other goodies. That dip i feel i can justify.

Now Im curious. Given the 13 WIS, what is the main advantage of the Hexblade dip over the Cleric dip? When you say "the shield", do you mean the spell? I thought you meant the object. For me, having one more casting of my higher level slot is better for a backline caster than access to the Shield Spell and 3 extra castings of a 1st level spell, even ignoring the Cleric Domain features.

I also love the skill monkey aspect of the Bard, which is why I usually recommend the Knowledge Cleric for a Bard dip.

But, in this party, with no other healer, and in this featless game, I think the best bang for your buck comes with a Life Cleric dip, Full Plate, and prioritizing con over dex.

(Full plate imposes stealth disadvantage, not sleight of hand-or even Acrobatics!- disadvantage- you can still be a pick-pocketing Full Plate trickster if you want- and when you do want to be stealthy, enhance ability is your best friend, now you have advantage on initiative with expertise on stealth- advantage AND expertise is over kill. Even without enhance ability, once you reach Bard level 14 you will have by far the best stealth in your party even with the disadvantage, because of Peerless skil)

[Keravath]

Now Im curious. Given the 13 WIS, what is the main advantage of the Hexblade dip over the Cleric dip? When you say "the shield", do you mean the spell? I thought you meant the object. For me, having one more casting of my higher level slot is better for a backline caster than access to the Shield Spell and 3 extra castings of a 1st level spell, even ignoring the Cleric Domain features.

I also love the skill monkey aspect of the Bard, which is why I usually recommend the Knowledge Cleric for a Bard dip.

But, in this party, with no other healer, and in this featless game, I think the best bang for your buck comes with a Life Cleric dip, Full Plate, and prioritizing con over dex.

(Full plate imposes stealth disadvantage, not sleight of hand-or even Acrobatics!- disadvantage- you can still be a pick-pocketing Full Plate trickster if you want- and when you do want to be stealthy, enhance ability is your best friend, now you have advantage on initiative with expertise on stealth- advantage AND expertise is over kill)

The main advantages of a 2 level hexblade dip over a cleric are the following:
- doesn't have an attribute requirement (i.e. no requirement for 13 wis - charisma only so it is SAD)
- martial weapon proficiency (if it matters - though you could go war or tempest cleric and get that too)
- hexblades's curse - extra damage once/short rest
- hex and shield spells - extra offence and defence
- 2 short rest level 1 spell slots - 6 total first level spell slots - very useful for powering the shield spell
- charisma as attack stat if you ever need to make a weapon attack
- ELDRITCH blast cantrip :) - when combined with agonizing blast it is the most damaging cantrip in the game - add hex for extra damage
- 2 invocations - agonizing blast to maximize the impact of eldritch blast plus one more - devils sight (see perfectly in the dark - no disadvantage on perception checks and see through magical darkness), mask of many faces (at will disguise self), at will mage armor if you decide to go with a dex bard and no armor, at will silent image if you like illusions, repelling blast if you want to make eldritch blast even better ... invocations provide great mechanical and roleplay options

The cleric dip has the following advantages:
- only one level required
- 2 first level cleric spells prepped + 2 spells depending on which type of cleric (assuming 13 wis)
- bless (great 1st level cleric spell that scales)
- Guidance cantrip (one of the most frequently used cantrips in my experience)
- option for heavy armor but skill bards usually like a high dex due to the number of skills that rely on it so most bard multiclasses would stick to medium anyway
- some cleric options give additional skills and expertise that synergizes well with a lore bard

[Tallytrev813]

Now Im curious. Given the 13 WIS, what is the main advantage of the Hexblade dip over the Cleric dip? When you say "the shield", do you mean the spell? I thought you meant the object. For me, having one more casting of my higher level slot is better for a backline caster than access to the Shield Spell and 3 extra castings of a 1st level spell, even ignoring the Cleric Domain features.

I also love the skill monkey aspect of the Bard, which is why I usually recommend the Knowledge Cleric for a Bard dip.

But, in this party, with no other healer, and in this featless game, I think the best bang for your buck comes with a Life Cleric dip, Full Plate, and prioritizing con over dex.

(Full plate imposes stealth disadvantage, not sleight of hand-or even Acrobatics!- disadvantage- you can still be a pick-pocketing Full Plate trickster if you want- and when you do want to be stealthy, enhance ability is your best friend, now you have advantage on initiative with expertise on stealth- advantage AND expertise is over kill. Even without enhance ability, once you reach Bard level 14 you will have by far the best stealth in your party even with the disadvantage, because of Peerless skil)

*Regarding the end - Yes i know it doesnt impose Disadv on those skills, but it will come at the cost of Dex to meet the requirements of dipping Cleric. Enhance Ability comes at the cost of spell slots, and isnt always an option (I get called to roll stealth checks often when im barding about). Peerless skill is the ish - but if you dip Cleric it comes after lvl 14, because dipping delays your bard levels, plus, ive never even been in a game that went to level 15 or 16.

Ok, so why do i like Hexblade dip;

1.) Spellcasting ability is charisma, so it synergizes well. Additionally, you dont have to reach into str or wis to take the multiclass dip, it's already your primary ability. This is probably the biggest advantage tied with the addition of Eldritch Blast. Having your spell-save DC and your spellcasting Mod synergized makes the spells available much better normally

2.) AC bonus, it gives you Prof with medium armor and shields (Same as cleric unless you want the heavy armor, but i just dont think its worth it)

3.) Eldritch blast. This will easily be your best damaging option that doesnt require a spell slot. He is something like level 11, meaning it's a cantrip for 3d10 damage.

4.) You get a patron. If you're wanting an AoE for defense, you get Fey Presence for AoE fear/charm (with spell save DC synergizing to 15 on a Wisdom save). If you want healing - take Fiend for Dark Ones Blessing so you can pick off baddies for temporary HP. etc.

5.) 2 lvl 1 Warlock spell slots that refresh on short rests

6.) It gives you the option for a 2nd level in warlock for Invocations (i.e. agonizing blast to make eldritch blast now doing 3d10+15 as a cantrip for ranged force damage, Free cast disguise self/mage armor/etc)

Options are just too good, and synergize too well with a bard's spellcasting he already possessed at no cost other than the delay in Bard level.

Especially having the option of Eldritch blast. 3d10+15 damage as a cantrip is just to freaking good. Especially as a ranged attack that deals the rarely-resisted force damage.

[diplomancer]

*Regarding the end - Yes i know it doesnt impose Disadv on those skills, but it will come at the cost of Dex to meet the requirements of dipping Cleric. Enhance Ability comes at the cost of spell slots, and isnt always an option (I get called to roll stealth checks often when im barding about). Peerless skill is the ish - but if you dip Cleric it comes after lvl 14, because dipping delays your bard levels, plus, ive never even been in a game that went to level 15 or 16.

Ok, so why do i like Hexblade dip;

1.) Spellcasting ability is charisma, so it synergizes well. Additionally, you dont have to reach into str or wis to take the multiclass dip, it's already your primary ability. This is probably the biggest advantage tied with the addition of Eldritch Blast. Having your spell-save DC and your spellcasting Mod synergized makes the spells available much better normally

2.) AC bonus, it gives you Prof with medium armor and shields (Same as cleric unless you want the heavy armor, but i just dont think its worth it)

3.) Eldritch blast. This will easily be your best damaging option that doesnt require a spell slot. He is something like level 11, meaning it's a cantrip for 3d10 damage.

4.) You get a patron. If you're wanting an AoE for defense, you get Fey Presence for AoE fear/charm (with spell save DC synergizing to 15 on a Wisdom save). If you want healing - take Fiend for Dark Ones Blessing so you can pick off baddies for temporary HP. etc.

5.) 2 lvl 1 Warlock spell slots that refresh on short rests

6.) It gives you the option for a 2nd level in warlock for Invocations (i.e. agonizing blast to make eldritch blast now doing 3d10+15 as a cantrip for ranged force damage, Free cast disguise self/mage armor/etc)

Options are just too good, and synergize too well with a bard's spellcasting he already possessed at no cost other than the delay in Bard level.

Especially having the option of Eldritch blast. 3d10+15 damage as a cantrip is just to freaking good. Especially as a ranged attack that deals the rarely-resisted force damage.

I see your points as a general argument, but this is an existing character with 16 DEX and 13 WIS.
Also, Hexblade IS the patron, you don't get it and a choice of Fiend, Archfey, etc.
Also, a one level dip gives only 1 1st level casting per short rest, and the eldritch blast damage is simply not good enough without invocation.

A 2-level dip is a big investment, and I dont feel that "better damage" is worth it with this party.

[Deadandamnation]

Thanks for pointing out a lot of things, i'll think about It and try to play w/o dips for a couple of session.

As for the Archer part: my English isn't native so probably i've been misunderstood, i'll try to explain It again.

My Bard won't be an Archer, actually he won't own a Xbow neither because Is a totally different charachter in the 5th edition; while my OLD char WAS an Archer, the NEW Will NOT :D (Bard in 3.5 editions are usually forced to specialize a little into Combat since they are half-caster and the spell they can cast each day are somewhat limited by the nature of the class)

[diplomancer]

Thanks for pointing out a lot of things, i'll think about It and try to play w/o dips for a couple of session.

As for the Archer part: my English isn't native so probably i've been misunderstood, i'll try to explain It again.

My Bard won't be an Archer, actually he won't own a Xbow neither because Is a totally different charachter in the 5th edition; while my OLD char WAS an Archer, the NEW Will NOT :D (Bard in 3.5 editions are usually forced to specialize a little into Combat since they are half-caster and the spell they can cast each day are somewhat limited by the nature of the class)

Playing for a few sessions without a dip is also a very good choice. Then, if necessary, dip into whatever helps you shore up any weakness.

[Aaron Underhand]

I played a human lore bard to 10th...

I started with the healer feat. It was great both keeping the party alive and freeing up spell slots for much more interesting things

I dipped one level of wizard at 2nd level. It was great for 1st level rituals, and freeing up spell picks at higher levels. Magic missile, feather fall and fog, or simple illusion cover a multitude of sins, plus I got acid splash and chill touch.

Always planned a second level for divination, but you know, it was never the best option. Plan only for a one level dip if at all possible.

Wiz got better when I found a headband of intellect.

I took counterspell and fireball, but I was the only arcane caster. With a sorcerer I agree conjure animals if you get to pick. Some DMs pick for you.

And I picked up moderately armoured as a feat.

Forget fly, get polymorph. Much more versatile.

It was a great character. No DPR, but utility, full casting, skill monkey healing and ... TRex

[MarkVIIIMarc]

Lets see if I can make this dramatic. In reality the others have good points also.

I'm gonna say stay Bard and get good at it.

Bards do neat things like casting Fear, Counterspell or Animating Objects, not just cast EB and worrying about counting 8 or 12 dice pips.

Let the pip counters worry if Shatter or Fireball causes more damage. You need to race to get Polymorph and make your dying partner a T-Rex instead of just giving him 20 hit points.

Someone needs healed? Wait until they go down and cast Healing Word on them as a Bonus Action and make an attack or cast Vicious Mockery. Got something else to say? Ramp up them Cutting Words. Bards are fun.

Heck, use Dissonant Whispers to run the enemy all around the field letting your buddies have fun opportunity attacking them and ad that to the damage YOU caused instead of Tolling the Dead or whatever some Cleric does.

My attempt at a funny rant is over. All the classes do neat things. I just wanted to make a point against the grain.

[Tallytrev813]

Lets see if I can make this dramatic. In reality the others have good points also.

I'm gonna say stay Bard and get good at it.

Bards do neat things like casting Fear, Counterspell or Animating Objects, not just cast EB and worrying about counting 8 or 12 dice pips.

Let the pip counters worry if Shatter or Fireball causes more damage. You need to race to get Polymorph and make your dying partner a T-Rex instead of just giving him 20 hit points.

Someone needs healed? Wait until they go down and cast Healing Word on them as a Bonus Action and make an attack or cast Vicious Mockery. Got something else to say? Ramp up them Cutting Words. Bards are fun.

Heck, use Dissonant Whispers to run the enemy all around the field letting your buddies have fun opportunity attacking them and ad that to the damage YOU caused instead of Tolling the Dead or whatever some Cleric does.

My attempt at a funny rant is over. All the classes do neat things. I just wanted to make a point against the grain.

This is true, you should be doing this either way.

The Warlock dip just gives you Eldritch Blast for times when you have an action to spare, are low on resources, or need a kill on a squishy before he acts, in addition to adding AC and some extra cool benefits.

But you should, still, be doing Bardly things for the most part.

[Deadandamnation]

This is true, you should be doing this either way.

The Warlock dip just gives you Eldritch Blast for times when you have an action to spare, are low on resources, or need a kill on a squishy before he acts, in addition to adding AC and some extra cool benefits.

But you should, still, be doing Bardly things for the most part.

I'm used to Bard out a lot...i've been a bard for 3 campaigns in 3.0, 3.5 and also Pathfinder.

Usually what my PG do is abuse his interactions with silent image, charme, persuasion and such.

Also i always try to improve his action economy and resource management (like with bonus actions and UMD)

But I also like a Standardized play that have been: Wand of Scorching Ray or a Bow Attack, A Grapple manouver with a Net, A demoralize action...Just anything that can be done without spending resources for those spare rounds where I wouldn't Need to do something powerful.

So EB was the powerful of the non-powerful action i could think of...but maybe I can keep using the best non damaging cantrip I can Find (minor illusion Is also pretty good for when your concentration in is free).

[Lyracian]

Else i could take Cleric level for Guidance, Medium Armor, Shield, Life Boost on Aura of Vitality or Knowledge and a Better damage cantrip than Vicious Mockery. That bring me to 18 AC vs 16. Or Just Stick with Bard?


I saw you say PHB only but not quite sure from your posts if you are using Feats? Humans can take Moderately Armoured and stay pure Bard and still have AC 18. Without the free armour from Hexblade I would not take the Warlock dip and I certainly would not want to push my spell progression back two levels.

I like the Life Cleric dip and you can then have Goodberry as a Magical Secret and get 40 HP healing with a first level spell. I was also looking at Wall of Force as a decent control option.
Cleric is not going to give you a better attack cantrip due to lower Wisdom you can get Eldritch Blast with Spell Sniper Feat. Personally I still like Vicious Mockery at lower levels as you get the debuff along with the damage.