Suggestions for a low level "Thug" build?

[Yakmala]

As is typical for me, I come up with character backgrounds and personalities first, and then try to mold the game mechanics around it.

My newest character was born to a tavern wench and an unknown patron and grew up on the streets. He was large for his age and learned to throw his weight around. For him, climbing the ladder of success was going from street urchin to gang lookout to gang member to hired thug to tavern bouncer to mercenary to adventurer. While he makes his living via power and intimidation, he also has a knack for music and harbors aspirations of leaving the thug life behind to become a performer full time.

The character is starting at Level 1 in a Tier 1 AL game with slow progression, so low levels will be the focus for a while. I envision him a Variant Human (I like starting off with a Feat) with Strength starting at 16 (either naturally or 15 + 1 from tavern brawler), Dexterity will depend on class. Either 14 if medium armor or a dump stat if wearing heavy. Con at least 14 and Charisma as high as I can afford (12-14). With Int and Wis as the dump stats. In addition to whichever combat stats feats and skills he possesses, he'll be proficient with a musical instrument and the Performance skill, though he will never be a true Bard.

There's a number of different ways I can see this working. I'll list a few below but feel free to suggest other approaches or comment on which you thing would be best.

1: Single class Battlemaster: Get superiority dice at level 3 and treat them like dirty tricks. For the starting Feat/Fighting Style, either go Dual Wielder (with two-weapon fighting), Shield Master (with Dueling), Sentinel (with Defense) or Tavern Brawler (also with defense).

2: Barbarian Rogue: Starting with 1 level of Barbarian with the Tavern Brawler feat, followed by 1 level of Rogue with expertise in Athletics and Intimidation. Likely would fight with two weapons for increased chances to land a sneak attack, but would stow one of the weapons and grapple (with expertise in Athletics and advantage from Rage) as a bonus action whenever the opportunity arises. From 3rd level on, one approach would be to stay Barbarian until level 5 for Reckless Attack, Bear Totem the second attack and then pick up a second level of Rogue for Cunning Action, but I could just as easily do the opposite, taking additional Rogue levels first and going Swashbuckler to add his fairly high Charisma bonus to initiative and allow him to sneak attack in one on one situations.

Thoughts? Thanks in advance!

[Man_Over_Game]

I think the Barbarian Rogue would be more of what fits your character concept. A Battlemaster is anyone who's cunning in combat, but a Barbarian/Rogue is so specific of an archetype that there's no way that you'd feel "generic".

A lot of it will come down to complexity. The Battlemaster would be more complex of a choice in combat, but the Barbarian Rogue would be a straightforward and powerful build that would rely on being complex out of combat.

[Kurt Kurageous]

I disagree with MoG here.

Battlemaster as dirty fighting is inspired reskinning of the archetype. propos to you, its and original concept.

Please keep me informed if you go this way. I may decide to do it for a new character.

Dump the music talent nonsense, though. Urchin background all the way. Wait for a love interest to take you away from it all, or make that the tragedy of your "hero."

[Phoenix042]

This character sounds like a rogue to me, albeit one who uses strength instead of dex for attacks and damage. Expertise in athletics (throwing people out of parties, roughing people up without actually damaging them, holding people back so the boss can intimidate them, etc).

And why would a rogue go strength? Well, to dip barbarian of course.

Maybe start barbarian (better HP and saves for you), and then go rogue for a while.

And definitely grab tavern brawler. Barbarian rogues with tavern brawler are basically the best grappler build in the game, and because tavern brawler is a half-feat, it doesn't even cost much to grab it.

If you've got a really good DM, ask him about taking performance expertise. It's not objectively optimal compared to other choices, but if your DM is able to give you opportunities to get a lot of mileage out of it that could be a very fun build decision.

[Lupine]

I disagree with MoG here.

Battlemaster as dirty fighting is inspired reskinning of the archetype. propos to you, its and original concept.

Please keep me informed if you go this way. I may decide to do it for a new character.

Dump the music talent nonsense, though. Urchin background all the way. Wait for a love interest to take you away from it all, or make that the tragedy of your "hero."

I mostly agree with you, but I think the duality of "dirty fighter who loves music" would add a large dose of verisimilitude to the game, if you can pull it off. Besides, it also gives a simple way to be a fighter while also being able to be of use in non-combat situations would be a really good thing. As it is, many people play fighter similar to Thog, even if they have better grammar.

[Potato_Priest]

Remember that battlemasters get a tool prof at level 3, so you can snatch up an instrument there if it doesn’t come from your background.

Also, why have we not considered a battlemaster/rogue multi class? If cleverness rather than anger is his thing, tripping strike and riposte make excellent combos with sneak attack, as they can be used to gain advantage or make an off-turn sneak attack, respectively. To take advantage of that, I’d take battlemaster to 5, then pick up rogue levels as the campaign permits. You’ll keep up nicely with party members though the 1-5 levels, something that would be harder to do with an early multi class of barbarian and rogue.

Edit: also, have you considered monk? (Open hand, Kensei or drunken master would all work). While you might have slightly subpar AC thanks to a str focus, monks get an instrument at level 1, good unarmed damage, high mobility, and ways to knock down and push enemies just as efficiently as a battlemaster.

[Yakmala]

Thanks for the replies so far!

For those advocating the Fighter/BattleMaster route, which combination Feat/Fighting style do you see fitting best with this concept?

1: Dual Wielder + Two Weapon Fighting: Good damage in the earliest levels, but falls off quickly in comparison to other styles at later levels. Useful if multi-classing into Rogue for extra sneak attack chances.

2: Shield Master and Dueling: Dueling can again be defined as dirty fighting for this character. He knows just where to hit to make it hurt. Shield Master is good for knocking people down, but the Trip maneuver can do that just as well.

3: Sentinel and Defense/Dueling: Get in close and don't let them get away. Very good if multi-classing into Rogue for additional sneak attacks. Defense fighting style for toughness or Dueling to emulate dirty fighting.

4: Tavern Brawler and Defense/Dueling: +1 to Strength allows more points for other attributes. Bonus action grapple is always fun, either combined with Battlemaster's Trip and/or Rogue's Sneak attack. Awkward with a shield but good with single weapon or dual wielding.

5: Prodigy + Any: Use the expertise with Athletics and you can probably skip multi-classing into Rogue and either stay pure BattleMaster or maybe pick up a single level of Barbarian for Rage to get advantage on grapples to go with the expertise.

[Man_Over_Game]

Thanks for the replies so far!

For those advocating the Fighter/BattleMaster route, which combination Feat/Fighting style do you see fitting best with this concept?

1: Dual Wielder + Two Weapon Fighting: Good damage in the earliest levels, but falls off quickly in comparison to other styles at later levels. Useful if multi-classing into Rogue for extra sneak attack chances.

2: Shield Master and Dueling: Dueling can again be defined as dirty fighting for this character. He knows just where to hit to make it hurt. Shield Master is good for knocking people down, but the Trip maneuver can do that just as well.

3: Sentinel and Defense/Dueling: Get in close and don't let them get away. Very good if multi-classing into Rogue for additional sneak attacks. Defense fighting style for toughness or Dueling to emulate dirty fighting.

4: Tavern Brawler and Defense/Dueling: +1 to Strength allows more points for other attributes. Bonus action grapple is always fun, either combined with Battlemaster's Trip and/or Rogue's Sneak attack. Awkward with a shield but good with single weapon or dual wielding.

5: Prodigy + Any: Use the expertise with Athletics and you can probably skip multi-classing into Rogue and either stay pure BattleMaster or maybe pick up a single level of Barbarian for Rage to get advantage on grapples to go with the expertise.

As a mostly Battlemaster character, you won't really need a Bonus Action attack for Sneak Attacks. You'll have 2-3 attacks and a high hit chance already.

I'd recommend Shield Master and Dueling, as it covers one of the biggest weakness of a Strength Fighter (Dexterity saving throws) that you wouldn't get without a hefty investment into Rogue.

Or, you could look at it like this:

Pure damage: Sentinel
Pure survivability: Shield Master
Pure utility: Tavern Brawler.

[Potato_Priest]

From a pure optimization standpoint, I’d argue for the sentinel strategy. Sentinel is such a good feat for control of enemy’s positioning that it almost makes grappling obsolete, and it synergies beautifully with rogue levels.

However, from a flavor standpoint, tavern brawler is probably the best. Improvised weapons make for great thuggish flavor.

[Vogie]

I'd actually suggest a Kensei Monk . This character would be an intense hand to hand combatant, and doubly so when they draw their weapon of choice and start cutting fools (or using it as an improvised shield with Agile Parry)

If you don't want to go with a grappler build, you could go with a small rogue dip. The first 6-7 levels (depending if you want evasion first or not) would be in monk then a 1 or 3 level dip into rogue, depending if you want just the expertise or the second sneak attack die and one of the archetypes. Investigation's ability to forgo advantage with Insight check could be useful as well.

If you do want to go with a grappler build, you could still pick up proficiency in Athletics with Monk, can use the stun-improvised strike-BA Grapple combo. Later ona pair of Barbarian levels to be able to grapple with advantage without stunning the target first. Remember - just because Monks CAN use dexterity for their strikes, they can also use strength.



If you weren't in AL, I'd actually ask your DM if you could have your melee Kensei Weapon be "improvised weapon". That would be simply delightful, turning you into a semi-mystical Jackie Chan, smashing dragons with refrigerator doors.