Volley + Defect Missiles. Low cost off-action attack generation.

[Damon_Tor]

So the party consists of one Hunter Ranger who is at least level 11 and any number of monks (or characters who have at least 3 levels in monk) Let's say there are 4 of them.


Monks surround the target on their turns (attacking the target as they normally would)
Ranger launches Volley against the Target as well as all the monks
Monks use Deflect Missiles to reduce the damage they take to 0 and redirect the missiles to the target.


So if the ranger uses a Longbow, that's 6d8+25 damage being dealt in that turn to a single target without significant resources being expended (1 ki point per monk).

EDIT: Flame Arrows combo removed because it doesn't work due to the arrows losing the enchantment when they hit, and the monks have to be "hit" by the arrows to deflect them.

Any other thoughts how to maximize this combo?

[MaxWilson]

Meh. Deflect Missile isn't a great use of ki for monks in the first place, IMO. Nothing broken here, nothing even compelling outside of niche scenarios where you happen to have a bunch of monks in the same party with no better use for their reaction.

[Man_Over_Game]

I mean, we're getting into Kind of Stupid territory here, but I guess all the Monks could have Crossbow Expert. That way, they don't suffer Disadvantage.

And screw it, nothing like a little Bless. I guess these are all Monk/Clerics now.

[Damon_Tor]

I mean, we're getting into Kind of Stupid territory here, but I guess all the Monks could have Crossbow Expert. That way, they don't suffer Disadvantage.

The monks don't necessarily have to be adjacent to the target: volley has a 10 foot radius. So they could use the mobile feat or step of the wind to back out of melee range and still be close enough to bounce arrows back at the target.


And screw it, nothing like a little Bless. I guess these are all Monk/Clerics now.

Well 1 of every 3 anyway.

[Frozenstep]

I mean, we're getting into Kind of Stupid territory here, but I guess all the Monks could have Crossbow Expert. That way, they don't suffer Disadvantage.

Let's go deeper derper. All the monks have rogue levels so they get sneak attack damage.

[Man_Over_Game]

Let's go deeper derper. All the monks have rogue levels so they get sneak attack damage.

I actually thought of that, too, but the Monk's missile throw isn't technically a melee weapon, a ranged weapon, a finesse weapon, or even a weapon. You make a Ranged Weapon Attack with some random object that you happen to be proficient in, and that's not eligible for Sneak Attack.

[Frozenstep]

I actually thought of that, too, but the Monk's missile throw isn't technically a melee weapon, a ranged weapon, a finesse weapon, or even a weapon. You make a Ranged Weapon Attack with some random object that you happen to be proficient in, and that's not eligible for Sneak Attack.

:smallfrown: Vague wording ruins lives once again.

[JackPhoenix]

:smallfrown: Vague wording ruins lives once again.

Don't you mean "exact wording", the opposite of vague?

[Damon_Tor]

I actually thought of that, too, but the Monk's missile throw isn't technically a melee weapon, a ranged weapon, a finesse weapon, or even a weapon. You make a Ranged Weapon Attack with some random object that you happen to be proficient in, and that's not eligible for Sneak Attack.

So at level 3, a monk gets attacked by an arrow shot from a longbow and deflects it, sending it back at the attacker. Is your position that the attack would do 1d4 damage (your martial arts die) instead of 1d8 damage (the longbow's damage) because the attack is no longer associated with the longbow or its properties?

I'm not saying you're wrong, a strict reading shows you're correct, but that seems to run contrary to the way I've ever seen monks played, and probably not RAI.

Crawford on the topic (https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/657840322446237696?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5E tweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E657840322446237696&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.sageadvice.eu%2F2015%2F1 2%2F08%2Fwhats-the-damage-of-the-deflect-missile-attack%2F), helpful as always. Mearls (https://twitter.com/mikemearls/status/1035320272994201600?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5 Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1035320272994201600&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.sageadvice.eu%2F2018%2F1 0%2F14%2Fdoes-monks-deflect-missiles-thrown-attack-count-for-rogue-sneak-attack%2F) thinks it works.

[MaxWilson]

:smallfrown: Vague wording ruins lives once again.

You could always make them wizards instead of rogues for Tenser's Transformation +2d12. Horrible use of resources but...

[Greywander]

"Defect" Missiles? I mean, I guess, technically, they are, in fact, defecting to the other side. The dirty traitors.

Not in this case, though, since they're your own arrows and not an enemy's.

Now I'm just imagining (enemy) arrows s l o w l y moving through the air toward the monk, while the monk haves his arms around shouting, "wololo wololo," until the arrow changes to the monk's color, turns around, and attacks the archer that shot it.

The real gem here is that in such a case you could drop a volley on a group of enemies without needing to worry about the monks. The monks could even grapple or otherwise prevent the enemies from moving out of the kill zone. This doesn't burn any ki, so you can do it all day. But yeah, if you've got ki to spare, you can throw arrows at them, too.

[Damon_Tor]

The real gem here is that in such a case you could drop a volley on a group of enemies without needing to worry about the monks.

Volley works against "any number of creatures" within the area: you don't have to attack anyone you don't want to.

[Lunali]

So at level 3, a monk gets attacked by an arrow shot from a longbow and deflects it, sending it back at the attacker. Is your position that the attack would do 1d4 damage (your martial arts die) instead of 1d8 damage (the longbow's damage) because the attack is no longer associated with the longbow or its properties?

I'm not saying you're wrong, a strict reading shows you're correct, but that seems to run contrary to the way I've ever seen monks played, and probably not RAI.

Crawford on the topic (https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/657840322446237696?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5E tweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E657840322446237696&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.sageadvice.eu%2F2015%2F1 2%2F08%2Fwhats-the-damage-of-the-deflect-missile-attack%2F), helpful as always. Mearls (https://twitter.com/mikemearls/status/1035320272994201600?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5 Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1035320272994201600&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.sageadvice.eu%2F2018%2F1 0%2F14%2Fdoes-monks-deflect-missiles-thrown-attack-count-for-rogue-sneak-attack%2F) thinks it works.

Arrows do not have a damage associated with them, they use the damage of the launcher, this means that when they are caught and thrown, the only applicable damage dice would be the damage from martial arts or improvised weapons. If the weapon is a thrown weapon, you can use either of the available dice. As for Mearls, ranged weapons qualify for sneak attack.

[Damon_Tor]

Arrows do not have a damage associated with them, they use the damage of the launcher, this means that when they are caught and thrown, the only applicable damage dice would be the damage from martial arts or improvised weapons. If the weapon is a thrown weapon, you can use either of the available dice. As for Mearls, ranged weapons qualify for sneak attack.

I get it, and like I said, that's how the rule reads. But there are problems. For example, the damage would be entirely "untyped".

[JackPhoenix]

I get it, and like I said, that's how the rule reads. But there are problems. For example, the damage would be entirely "untyped".

It would not. See improvised weapon section: "An object that bears no resemblance to a weapon deals 1d4 damage (the GM assigns a damage type appropriate to the object)."

[Haydensan]

You could flip this a little bit:

A melee ranger with whirlwind attack and GWM.

All Drunken Master monks who redirect the attacks to their target. IIRC the drunken master redirect is an auto hit

[Damon_Tor]

You could flip this a little bit:

A melee ranger with whirlwind attack and GWM.

All Drunken Master monks who redirect the attacks to their target. IIRC the drunken master redirect is an auto hit

The weird wording of whirlwind attack might mess this one up. Whirlwind Attack is a single attack against multiple creatures. The drunken master's redirect doesn't create a new, separate attack, it makes the attack hit another target. It's not intuitive what happens then, but I don't think that would generate a second instance of the Whirlwind Attack's damage roll against the intended target. Deflect Missiles works with Volley (which is also a single attack) because the attack the monk makes is its own attack, divorced from the one that hit it in the first place.

EDIT: HOWEVER, this would seem to work EXTREMELY WELL with Steel Wind Strike, used in the same way. The monks surround the target and the caster deliberately does everything he can to make sure he misses before casting the spell (deliberately giving yourself disadvantage in some way, attacking through 3/4 cover, etc). If you have five allied drunken masters and target all of them, you wind up dealing 30d10 force damage to the target for a level 5 spell slot (and 1 ki per monk) at level 9. And as long as you miss the monks (and its easier to give yourself penalties than bonuses) the attacks auto-hit the target.