Barbarian Tank Curse of Strahd

[Genoin]

I have decided on Barbarian for my upcoming Curse of Strahd game, Im joining at level 3. I picked Barbarian because I wanted to be the tank for the group. That said, since I want to be a tank in the more traditional sense of supporting the group by enticing enemies to attack me instead, I am leaning toward Ancestral Guardian more than Bear. I know that Zealot's radiant damage would be useful in this campaign, but while I want to do damage, I don't want to sacrifice good tanking class features like the Ancestral Guardian gives. So, here is what I have currently.

V. Human Barbarian 3 (Path of the Ancestral Guardian)
Background: Outlander
Skills: Athletics, Insight, Intimidation, Perception, Survival
Feats: Great Weapon Master
Stats 16, 14, 16, 8, 10, 8 (Point Buy)

I am wondering about a few things, such as

- Race Choice (Do the features from something like Goliath or Half Orc outweigh the free feat at level 1?)
- Feat Choice if V. Human (I know there are probably better feats in a vacuum for tanking, but GWM is a huge increase in DPR, which means shorter combats overall)
- Im willing to hear advice on anything else as well.

[Bjork]

The stats look good.

What about using a 1h and shield and going with something like Shield Master (not being bear totem means that a lot of the stuff that will really hurt you will be AoE magic damage, this makes it a lot easier to avoid that stuff) or Polearm Master with a Shield and Spear? Not sure if either of those are worth the damage loss on not having GWM.

[SVamp]

How about zealot with PAM and sentinel? Can even use spear and shield when needed

[GlenSmash!]

Goliath's Stones Endurance is a nice tanky feature, and it would give you something that recharges on a short rest.

Also I'd make sure at least one member of you party has reliable radiant damage before completely abandoning the idea of the Zealot. Shutting down a Vampires HP regen will be very useful.

[Vekon]

You will kick yourself for not having Bear Totem when the necrotic damage starts rocking your world. Also makes it safer for you to reckless every turn to synergize with your GWM.

[Man_Over_Game]

The value of Ancestral Guardian vs. a more general tank (Bear Totem) is the fact that it makes your allies much more unlikable targets. In fact, I believe a properly played Ancestral Guardian is a better addition to the team than a Bear Barbarian.

That being said, the Ancestral Guardian doesn't do anything if enemies are already going to be attacking you. So you need to provide some incentive for enemies to attack your allies. That sounds a bit crazy, but here's what it boils down to:

With your Rage, you are less tanky than a Wizard with Shield while being protected from your Ancestral Guardian feature. YOU become the path of least resistance, so make it so that the target you afflict has no choice but to either spend a lot of resources/damage to attack you, or attack your allies for almost worthless damage. AG also requires no save, so as long as you can continue to do this, it'll stay effective against any boss, no matter how tough.

So the question then becomes...how?

A few suggestions:


Mobile: The extra mobility, plus your unarmored movement, means you'll be able to Reckless Attack an enemy for high accuracy, then run beside your team. The boss has to make a choice of losing their positioning, provoking Opportunity Attacks from your allies, using an AoE to include you and only hit half the party, or attack the party for half damage and Disadvantage.
Polearm Master: Similar to Mobile, the extra 5 feet range means you don't need to move as much (so you only need 20 feet where you'd normally need 30). The Bonus Action attack also helps, as it means you can get a hit in without needing to make it Reckless (meaning you last longer through the fight).
Tough: You're going to be attacked. A lot. Some extra HP is going to go a long way.
Dual Wielder: Barbarians do surprisingly well with two weapons, due to their Rage bonus. You can still maintain Reach with whips and have a higher AC, or you can even start tossing Javelins for some long-range support. You don't need to make a melee attack to activate your AG features.



See, a Bear Barbarian is only worth it if he's the only one that's going to be attacked. An Ancestral Guardian Barbarian is only worth it if everyone else is going to be attacked. And just like how the Bear Barbarian wants to make himself a target (via Sentinel and damage), the Ancestral Guardian wants to make himself LESS of a target.

If Strahd was hit by an Ancestral Guardian with 50 movement speed, every turn, I'd imagine Strahd would do everything he could to kill that pest. Even if that means blowing Misty Step, or if that means provoking 2 OA's. That's a lot more than a Bear Barbarian would do.

[Tallytrev813]

The value of Ancestral Guardian vs. a more general tank (Bear Totem) is the fact that it makes your allies much more unlikable targets. In fact, I believe a properly played Ancestral Guardian is a better addition to the team than a Bear Barbarian.

That being said, the Ancestral Guardian doesn't do anything if enemies are already going to be attacking you. So you need to provide some incentive for enemies to attack your allies. That sounds a bit crazy, but here's what it boils down to:

With your Rage, you are less tanky than a Wizard with Shield while being protected from your Ancestral Guardian feature. YOU become the path of least resistance, so make it so that the target you afflict has no choice but to either spend a lot of resources/damage to attack you, or attack your allies for almost worthless damage. AG also requires no save, so as long as you can continue to do this, it'll stay effective against any boss, no matter how tough.

So the question then becomes...how?

A few suggestions:


Mobile: The extra mobility, plus your unarmored movement, means you'll be able to Reckless Attack an enemy for high accuracy, then run beside your team. The boss has to make a choice of losing their positioning, provoking Opportunity Attacks from your allies, using an AoE to include you and only hit half the party, or attack the party for half damage and Disadvantage.
Polearm Master: Similar to Mobile, the extra 5 feet range means you don't need to move as much (so you only need 20 feet where you'd normally need 30). The Bonus Action attack also helps, as it means you can get a hit in without needing to make it Reckless (meaning you last longer through the fight).
Tough: You're going to be attacked. A lot. Some extra HP is going to go a long way.
Dual Wielder: Barbarians do surprisingly well with two weapons, due to their Rage bonus. You can still maintain Reach with whips and have a higher AC, or you can even start tossing Javelins for some long-range support. You don't need to make a melee attack to activate your AG features.



See, a Bear Barbarian is only worth it if he's the only one that's going to be attacked. An Ancestral Guardian Barbarian is only worth it if everyone else is going to be attacked. And just like how the Bear Barbarian wants to make himself a target (via Sentinel and damage), the Ancestral Guardian wants to make himself LESS of a target.

If Strahd was hit by an Ancestral Guardian with 50 movement speed, every turn, I'd imagine Strahd would do everything he could to kill that pest. Even if that means blowing Misty Step, or if that means provoking 2 OA's. That's a lot more than a Bear Barbarian would do.

This poster makes some great points, but im a big Totem barb fan and ill make the counter-case.

But first, you asked about Race.

I rolled a Barb recently and researched this a lot, heres my opinion;

Mountain Dwarf/V. Human > Goliath/Minotaur/Half Orc
Heres why - The latter 3 have great racials for a Barb, but the fact is VHuman and MDwarf are the ONLY 2 races who can max Con+Strength AND get 2 feats without taking a +1 feat.

Example: Half-Orc (While it has helpful racials) will end with either 20/19 Str/Con +2feats, OR 20/20+1 feat (can do 2 feats if 1 is a +1 feat). Mountain Dwarf can START 17/17 Str/Con and bump to 18/18 with first ASI. VHuman starts with a feat (Which is worth a +2 or a +1/+1 Attribute bonus).

My opinion is, as a RACE, you should always be rolling Mountain Dwarf or V.Human if you want to get the best bang for your buck


As the poster above me noted, AG is good. I prefer Bear though.

I like to start with Bear, pick up Mage Slayer+Sentinel

The beauty is, you take half damage and have massive HP, but you become the biggest pest for an enemy ever.

If it's a caster:
you smash them over and over, you absolutely wreck anything they need to concentrate on, you get to smash them more as they cast, you have adv on the spell saves they cast against you, they cant get away from you more than once or twice - if at all.

If it's a melee:
You smash them over and over. They cant disengage, if they take an AoO and try to run - they cant - you drop their speed to 0. If they attack others, you get to keep smashing them.

And, once you finally get that coveted Totemic Attunement at lvl 14, you impose disadv for attacking others.


Essentially, the build says
"Either you're attacking me, or im going to take 4-5 attacks at you each round and drop your speed to 0 and ruin all your spells, and (later) you get disadvantage for not attacking me as well"



If it were me, i'd consider Totem Barb and either roll Mountain Dwarf if i wanted high STATS early, or V. Human if i wanted to run for Mage Slayer/Sentinel ASAP.

[stoutstien]

Careful of mage Slayer. It doesn't actually interrupt the spell being cast and most NPCs aren't going to stand within 5 ft of a raging Barbarian while casting.

[Man_Over_Game]

Careful of mage Slayer. It doesn't actually interrupt the spell being cast and most NPCs aren't going to stand within 5 ft of a raging Barbarian while casting.

At the same time, though, Misty Step means that the caster is now limited to cantrips for the remainder of the round. So that's a level 2 spell AND virtually no damage for the round. Unless they cast a damage spell that also keeps them from being harmed by Mage Slayer (Thunderwave?), their overall effectiveness is going to be reduced. And moving 60 feet and casting a cantrip isn't exactly the ideal turn for a boss.

[Tallytrev813]

Careful of mage Slayer. It doesn't actually interrupt the spell being cast and most NPCs aren't going to stand within 5 ft of a raging Barbarian while casting.

Right, but it effectively demolishes anything they need to concentrate on, it allows an Attack of Opportunity if the boss casts targeting anyone else, and it forces the boss to (as noted below) Misty Step or some other spell of teleportation away and waste that turn.

The following turns involve the barbarian (who has improved movement speed) either running, or dashing to said boss putting him in the same situation he was just in last turn.

And it's not like the Caster can run - Sentinel removes Disengage and your AoO drops their speed to 0 unless you miss.

It certainly doesn't nullify the caster - but it makes the Barbarian one hell of a thorn in their side.

[stoutstien]

At the same time, though, Misty Step means that the caster is now limited to cantrips for the remainder of the round. So that's a level 2 spell AND virtually no damage for the round.

Most of the casters that you want to shut down with mage slayer will just eat the AOO and continue on with what ever they where doing.
It's a great feat vs 'weak' casters but a lot of boss style casters can eat quite of few hits or have other ways of moving around besides casting a spell.

It's not a bad feat but it doesn't work as advertised.

I don't want to post any spoilers about this particular adventurev but it has some tough foes in it.

[sophontteks]

If I was going totem mage slayer I'd be far more concerned about reaching the caster in the first place then I would be about tanking more non-weapon damage. Eagle and elk give a barbarian more movement speed. Eagle barbs can ignore resistance and move 80 feet per turn with a bonus action. Elk moves 55 feet without a bonus action and without the reaction advantage.

These barbarians can actually reach the caster and prevent the caster from escaping them. They will be swinging their weapons every round instead of settling for ranged attacks.They can drag grappled targets away from the fight entirely, and throw them off distant cliffs. They can get into the soft juicy center of the enemy
andturn their attention away from their friends.

The increased utility and effectiveness will translate to taking less damage anyway, espesially since these barbs can actually run the casters down right away.

[Man_Over_Game]

Most of the casters that you want to shut down with mage slayer will just eat the AOO and continue on with what ever they where doing.
It's a great feat vs 'weak' casters but a lot of boss style casters can eat quite of few hits or have other ways of moving around besides casting a spell.

It's not a bad feat but it doesn't work as advertised.

It does gain a lot of value with Sentinel, though.

If the enemy attempts to run away, a successful hit will prevent them from doing so, limiting their ability to reposition for a Fireball or causing their ranged attack to be made with Disadvantage (because the Barbarian's adjacent to you).

If the enemy stays put and casts a spell, the Barbarian makes an extra attack.

The Barbarian actually deals more damage per hit than the Fighter due to Rage, roughly 25% more (depending on level), and you'd be increasing that Barbarian's damage-per-round by 30-50%.

So the boss is limited to these choices:
Cast a spell that deals damage that also prevents the Barbarian from attacking you (Thunder Step, Thunderwave).
Cast a spell to move away and cast a cantrip.
Cast a powerful AoE spell that the caster might be caught in or can't position correctly (Cone of Cold), Barbarian deals 50% more damage this round.
Cast a powerful Concentration spell that would help control the battlefield. Barbarian deals 50% more damage this round, and you make your Concentration with Disadvantage.
Move away from the Barbarian and cast a big Concentration spell. This may fail to work if the Barbarian hits. Barbarian deals 50% more damage this round.
Use some kind of melee attack against the Barbarian, who is Raging.

[stoutstien]

It does gain a lot of value with Sentinel, though.

If the enemy attempts to run away, a successful hit will prevent them from doing so, limiting their ability to reposition for a Fireball or causing their ranged attack to be made with Disadvantage (because the Barbarian's adjacent to you).

If the enemy stays put and casts a spell, the Barbarian makes an extra attack.

The Barbarian actually deals more damage per hit than the Fighter due to Rage, roughly 25% more (depending on level), and you'd be increasing that Barbarian's damage-per-round by 30-50%.

So the boss is limited to these choices:
Cast a spell that deals damage that also prevents the Barbarian from attacking you (Thunder Step, Thunderwave).
Cast a spell to move away and cast a cantrip.
Cast a powerful AoE spell that the caster might be caught in or can't position correctly (Cone of Cold), Barbarian deals 50% more damage this round.
Cast a powerful Concentration spell that would help control the battlefield. Barbarian deals 50% more damage this round, and you make your Concentration with Disadvantage.
Move away from the Barbarian and cast a big Concentration spell. This may fail to work if the Barbarian hits. Barbarian deals 50% more damage this round.
Use some kind of melee attack against the Barbarian, who is Raging.

I give most of the credit to sentinel which is a great feat. Especially in this adventure which can have an unusual number of single target encounters. Ancestral Barbarian with sentinel would really shine.

As a side note, I've never seen a barbarian take wisdom save proficiency and regret it.

[Tallytrev813]

I give most of the credit to sentinel which is a great feat. Especially in this adventure which can have an unusual number of single target encounters. Ancestral Barbarian with sentinel would really shine.

As a side note, I've never seen a barbarian take wisdom save proficiency and regret it.

I dont think giving the credit to Sentinel is fair in this instance.

Mage Slayer:

*Adds the attack of opportunity when they cast a spell next to you
*Adds the disadvantage to concentration saving throws on their spells
*Gives you advantage on saving throws against their spells when they're next to you

That last one is a big one, too.

All Sentinel is adding, in a caster's case, is AoO's dropping their speed to 0, and removing Disengage as an option.

[Tallytrev813]

If I was going totem mage slayer I'd be far more concerned about reaching the caster in the first place then I would be about tanking more non-weapon damage. Eagle and elk give a barbarian more movement speed. Eagle barbs can ignore resistance and move 80 feet per turn with a bonus action. Elk moves 55 feet without a bonus action and without the reaction advantage.

These barbarians can actually reach the caster and prevent the caster from escaping them. They will be swinging their weapons every round instead of settling for ranged attacks.They can drag grappled targets away from the fight entirely, and throw them off distant cliffs. They can get into the soft juicy center of the enemy
andturn their attention away from their friends.

The increased utility and effectiveness will translate to taking less damage anyway, espesially since these barbs can actually run the casters down right away.

Barbarians already get +10 movement speed. A Variant Human is moving at 40 ft already, that's not exactly easy to get away from. Additionally, you can always just Dash to them if you need to. You miss your chance to attack, but you impose all the goodies that Mage Slayer/Sentinel provide.

[Man_Over_Game]

I disagree that Ancestral Guardian benefits from Sentinel.

Sentinel and AG do the exact same thing: Make enemies want to attack you. They don't do anything if enemies are already attacking you, and getting a feat that does nothing is the worst case scenario.

The only reason I'd suggest grabbing both is if Ancestral Guardian isn't enough to convince an enemy to focus on you, which would be very rare. You must have a Sorcerer twinning Haste or something to be worth being ignored that much.

That's before including that your Spirit Guardians feature interferes with Sentinel (as they both require Reactions).

[Tallytrev813]

I disagree that Ancestral Guardian benefits from Sentinel.

Sentinel and AG do the exact same thing: Make enemies want to attack you. They don't do anything if enemies are already attacking you, and getting a feat that does nothing is the worst case scenario.

The only reason I'd suggest grabbing both is if Ancestral Guardian isn't enough to convince an enemy to focus on you, which would be very rare. You must have a Sorcerer twinning Haste or something to be worth being ignored that much.

Yes, AG is a very different type of tank. I've never played it, but it looks pretty effective.

Totem i have played. It essentially makes the bad guy choose:

A.) Attack the Barbarian, who takes 1/2 damage and has massive HP pool
B.) Try to work around ALL of this crap that Sentinel/Mage Slayer impose. If you're lvl 14 - forget it. Melee HAS to attack you, period.

[stoutstien]

I disagree that Ancestral Guardian benefits from Sentinel.

Sentinel and AG do the exact same thing: Make enemies want to attack you. They don't do anything if enemies are already attacking you, and getting a feat that does nothing is the worst case scenario.

The only reason I'd suggest grabbing both is if Ancestral Guardian isn't enough to convince an enemy to focus on you, which would be very rare. You must have a Sorcerer twinning Haste or something to be worth being ignored that much.

That's before including that your Spirit Guardians feature interferes with Sentinel (as they both require Reactions).

It gives you a good way of tanking when you're not raging. Something that isn't talked about enough regarding Barbarians is what you do while not in Uber mode

[Man_Over_Game]

It gives you a good way of tanking when you're not raging. Something that isn't talked about enough regarding Barbarians is what you do while not in Uber mode

That is very true, and something I definitely didn't consider.

But, since you're not raging, do you really want to be tanking? Fighters and Paladins have their jacked up AC, saving throw buffs, and self-healing. Without your Rage, you have...10% more HP?

I do find that the number of Rages a Barbarian gets is actually pretty equal to the number of big fights a party should encounter in a single day. I don't expect many parties to have more than 2-3 encounters in a day until level 3. Coincidentally, that's when the Barbarian gets another use of Rage.

[stoutstien]

That is very true. But, since you're not raging, do you really want to be tanking? Fighters and Paladins have their jacked up AC and self-healing. Without your Rage, you have...10% more HP?
And
-Advantage on Dex saves
-Good initiative
-Decent AC (I hope) but low enough where you can be a decent target
-A big 'hit me' sign with reckless if needed

[Man_Over_Game]

And
-Advantage on Dex saves
-Good initiative
-Decent AC (I hope) but low enough where you can be a decent target
-A big 'hit me' sign with reckless if needed

But 3/4 of those are about making you a bigger target. Only 1/4 actually increases your survivability.

I guess it'd be best to separate it into two different types of "tanking":

Survivability (Ancients Paladin, Bear Barbarian, Moon Druid)
Aggro (Cavalier Fighter, Ancestral Guardian Barbarian, Crown Paladin)


Too much survivability and you get ignored. Too much Aggro, and you're losing combat effectiveness for no gain and you're dying too quickly.

So the default Barbarian has:

Survivability: 10% more HP, Advantage on Dexterity Saves, Rage.
Aggro: Reckless Attack, Initiative bonus, low AC.


And a lot of the default Barbarian Aggro effects actually lower your Survivability (Reckless Attack and AC).

Things like Mage Slayer, PAM, GWM and Sentinel are Aggro feats, when things like Resilience or Tough are Survivability feats.



I think to be the most effective tank, you should find a balance of both. But without Rage, you have almost no Survivability features, and 2/3 of your default Barbarian features lower your Survivability. So if you're planning around not having enough Rages, I'd say that it's a lot more important to focus on your Survivability than your Aggro.

Because if a big hulking guy is next to me, he's not Raging and takes full damage, he's been gaining Advantage on all of his attacks to hit me, I have Advantage to hit him, or I can risk an Opportunity Attack to hit his Mage friend, it's a pretty easy choice to make. You don't need Sentinel to convince me to hit you, and Sentinel does nothing if I do.

A Barbarian without Rage already has Aggro, but he does not have Survivability.

[Keravath]

- Race Choice (Do the features from something like Goliath or Half Orc outweigh the free feat at level 1?)
- Feat Choice if V. Human (I know there are probably better feats in a vacuum for tanking, but GWM is a huge increase in DPR, which means shorter combats overall)
- Im willing to hear advice on anything else as well.

Just a quick comment but GWM is not a huge increase in DPR (even with advantage). The -5 to hit means that you hit less often for more damage, the overall DPR increase is modest except against really low AC targets where you don't miss often but using GWM against high AC targets you do less damage.

For a d10 weapon with +3 in a stat then (total of +5 to hit in tier 1) then it is worth using GWM against targets with an AC of 17 or less. However, this means that you will hit far less often but will do more burst damage.

Against an AC15 target with +3 proficiency and +5 in a stat you need to roll a 7 or more to hit and in this case the average DPR for a d10+5 weapon goes from about 10 to about 14 when using GWM. So the DPR increases but the increase isn't huge. The cut off point for using GWM (with advantage) vs not using it with a d10+5 weapon is at the point where you need to roll a 12 to hit. If you need to roll higher than a 12 your DPR using GWM is less than without it.

http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?655006-The-math-of-GWM-SS

[Tallytrev813]

But 3/4 of those are about making you a bigger target. Only 1/4 actually increases your survivability.

I guess it'd be best to separate it into two different types of "tanking":

Survivability (Ancients Paladin, Bear Barbarian, Moon Druid)
Aggro (Cavalier Fighter, Ancestral Guardian Barbarian, Crown Paladin)


Too much survivability and you get ignored. Too much Aggro, and you're losing combat effectiveness for no gain and you're dying too quickly.

So the default Barbarian has:

Survivability: 10% more HP, Advantage on Dexterity Saves, Rage.
Aggro: Reckless Attack, Initiative bonus, low AC.


And a lot of the default Barbarian Aggro effects actually lower your Survivability (Reckless Attack and AC).

Things like Mage Slayer, PAM, GWM and Sentinel are Aggro feats, when things like Resilience or Tough are Survivability feats.



I think to be the most effective tank, you should find a balance of both. But without Rage, you have almost no Survivability features, and 2/3 of your default Barbarian features lower your Survivability. So if you're planning around not having enough Rages, I'd say that it's a lot more important to focus on your Survivability than your Aggro.

Because if a big hulking guy is next to me, he's not Raging and takes full damage, he's been gaining Advantage on all of his attacks to hit me, I have Advantage to hit him, or I can risk an Opportunity Attack to hit his Mage friend, it's a pretty easy choice to make. You don't need Sentinel to convince me to hit you, and Sentinel does nothing if I do.

A Barbarian without Rage already has Aggro, but he does not have Survivability.

This is all true, which is why - when i play Totem - i like to carry a Shield/1 hander... and sometimes Medium armor (Like half plate or breastplate).

If i run out of rages, I use a shield and armor. It makes my AC high enough (18-19) to, in addition to my high HP, make me a viable tank.

It allows you to sacrifice your damage in exchange for retaining Survivability.

Of course, if your party has a Paladin or a Moon Druid or something then its no big deal

[stoutstien]

But 3/4 of those are about making you a bigger target. Only 1/4 actually increases your survivability.

I guess it'd be best to separate it into two different types of "tanking":

Survivability (Ancients Paladin, Bear Barbarian, Moon Druid)
Aggro (Cavalier Fighter, Ancestral Guardian Barbarian, Crown Paladin)


Too much survivability and you get ignored. Too much Aggro, and you're losing combat effectiveness for no gain and you're dying too quickly.

So the default Barbarian has:

Survivability: 10% more HP, Advantage on Dexterity Saves, Rage.
Aggro: Reckless Attack, Initiative bonus, low AC.


And a lot of the default Barbarian Aggro effects actually lower your Survivability (Reckless Attack and AC).

Things like Mage Slayer, PAM, GWM and Sentinel are Aggro feats, when things like Resilience or Tough are Survivability feats.



I think to be the most effective tank, you should find a balance of both. But without Rage, you have almost no Survivability features, and 2/3 of your default Barbarian features lower your Survivability. So if you're planning around not having enough Rages, I'd say that it's a lot more important to focus on your Survivability than your Aggro.

Because if a big hulking guy is next to me, he's not Raging and takes full damage, he's been gaining Advantage on all of his attacks to hit me, I have Advantage to hit him, or I can risk an Opportunity Attack to hit his Mage friend, it's a pretty easy choice to make. You don't need Sentinel to convince me to hit you, and Sentinel does nothing if I do.

A Barbarian without Rage already has Aggro, but he does not have Survivability.

As a DM I fear a Barbarian with a shield over one with a 2hd weapon every day.

The times my tables get in the most trouble are those not so big fights that go sideways. A few bad decisions with equally bad rolls can turn a simple encounter into a resource pit.


I don't assume that Barbarian rage doesnt has very many visible signs that enemy can tell when it's up or not. But now we're getting into the category of NPC tactics and DM/npc knowledge separation.

[Man_Over_Game]

Just a quick comment but GWM is not a huge increase in DPR (even with advantage). The -5 to hit means that you hit less often for more damage, the overall DPR increase is modest except against really low AC targets where you don't miss often but using GWM against high AC targets you do less damage.

For a d10 weapon with +3 in a stat then (total of +5 to hit in tier 1) then it is worth using GWM against targets with an AC of 17 or less. However, this means that you will hit far less often but will do more burst damage.

Against an AC15 target with +3 proficiency and +5 in a stat you need to roll a 7 or more to hit and in this case the average DPR for a d10+5 weapon goes from about 10 to about 14 when using GWM. So the DPR increases but the increase isn't huge. The cut off point for using GWM vs not using it with a d10+5 weapon is at the point where you need to roll a 12 to hit. If you need to roll higher than a 12 your DPR using GWM is less than without it.

http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?655006-The-math-of-GWM-SS

He's right on this.

For an easy estimate,
GWM with Advantage adds damage equal to: 12-Roll on the dice. So if you need a 10 to hit the enemy, GWM adds +2 damage.
GWM W/O Advantage adds damage equal to: (11-Roll on the dice)/2. So if you need to roll a 7 to hit the enemy, GWM adds +2 damage.

These calculations are based on an average normal attack damage of 10, the standard for a melee attacker (https://rpg.stackexchange.com/a/76656/45619). Feats like GWM or Sharpshooter are worth less the higher your base damage is. So they're really good with Crossbow Expert (1d6), and really bad with Sneak Attack (up to 10d6).

[Tallytrev813]

He's right on this.

For an easy estimate,
GWM with Advantage adds damage equal to: 12-Roll on the dice. So if you need a 10 to hit the enemy, GWM adds +2 damage.
GWM W/O Advantage adds damage equal to: (11-Roll on the dice)/2. So if you need to roll a 7 to hit the enemy, GWM adds +2 damage.

These calculations are based on an average normal attack damage of 10, the standard for a melee attacker (https://rpg.stackexchange.com/a/76656/45619). Feats like GWM or Sharpshooter are worth less the higher your base damage is. So they're really good with Crossbow Expert (1d6), and really bad with Sneak Attack (up to 10d6).

Isnt that the calculation for -5/+10 though?

People often forget GWM also gives you a bonus action extra attack if you kill an enemy, which is another source of damage.

[Man_Over_Game]

As a DM I fear a Barbarian with a shield over one with a 2hd weapon every day.

The times my tables get in the most trouble are those not so big fights that go sideways. A few bad decisions with equally bad rolls can turn a simple encounter into a resource pit.


I don't assume that Barbarian rage doesnt has very many visible signs that enemy can tell when it's up or not. But now we're getting into the category of NPC tactics and DM/npc knowledge separation.

That's fair, but a lot of characters don't treat HP as "meat", but rather as "luck" or "energy". A "hit" isn't always a real strike, but a glancing blow or a lucky dodge. They only take "real" hits when they hit 0 HP.

While a lot of Barbarians don't do that, treating their high HP as "meat", it doesn't have to be. Rage could be narrated as a sort of skillfulness, or constant aggression, that prevents attackers from getting any clean attacks on the Barbarian.

The reason I bring this up is because there can be a narrative description as to how someone is resistant to damage, and I don't think Rage should be much different.

After all, when a player hits a creature with a resisted damage type, DMs will usually give a telltale sign that the attack was ineffective.

If a goblin player was attacking a Raging Barbarian NPC, I'd expect the player to be warned that his attacks were being resisted.

Should it be any different for a goblin NPC attacking a Raging Barbarian player?

[sophontteks]

Barbarians already get +10 movement speed. A Variant Human is moving at 40 ft already, that's not exactly easy to get away from. Additionally, you can always just Dash to them if you need to. You miss your chance to attack, but you impose all the goodies that Mage Slayer/Sentinel provide.
+10 is great, don't get me wrong, but the difference between 40 feet and 80 feet is pretty staggering. Ignoring all reactions on the way is already well on the way to saving more HP then bear could. Getting a full attack off when your dashing is even better. Barbarians suck at range, and if you don't attack you may not even be raging at all next turn. If you don't attack, and don't take damage, your rage is over.

Even with +10 movement barbarians are very vulnerable to being kited. Eagle barbs just plain can't be kited out of rage or forced to use weaker ranged attacks. They are always right where they need to be to maximize their effectiveness.

[Man_Over_Game]

+10 is great, don't get me wrong, but the difference between 40 feet and 80 feet is pretty staggering. Ignoring all reactions on the way is already well on the way to saving more HP then bear could. Getting a full attack off when your dashing is even better. Barbarians suck at range, and if you don't attack you may not even be raging at all next turn. If you don't attack, and don't take damage, your rage is over.

Even with +10 movement barbarians are very vulnerable to being kited. Eagle barbs just plain can't be kited out of rage or forced to use weaker ranged attacks. They are always right where they need to be to maximize their effectiveness.

What's interesting about that is, it's pretty hard to actually lose Rage as long as you're adjacent to an enemy.

Even if you don't attack and use your Action to dash, moving adjacent to an enemy will do 1 of 2 things:


Attack you, potentially with Advantage1
Move away from you, either provoking an attack2a or Disengaging2b.



1: A DM can impose Advantage or Disadvantage depending on a situation. It seems reasonable that if a Barbarian can cause Advantage to attack him by gaining Advantage himself, that the Barbarian would be able to grant Advantage to attack him for no personal benefit to his attack. If a Barbarian can choose to be stupid for aggression, can't he just choose to be stupid?

2a: You attempted an attack. You maintain your Rage.

2b: You lose your Rage, but the enemy will likely deal no damage this turn. You've nullified the enemy's contribution for the round.

[stoutstien]

That's fair, but a lot of characters don't treat HP as "meat", but rather as "luck" or "energy". A "hit" isn't always a real strike, but a glancing blow or a lucky dodge. They only take "real" hits when they hit 0 HP.

While a lot of Barbarians don't do that, treating their high HP as "meat", it doesn't have to be. Rage could be narrated as a sort of skillfulness, or constant aggression, that prevents attackers from getting any clean attacks on the Barbarian.

The reason I bring this up is because there can be a narrative description as to how someone is resistant to damage, and I don't think Rage should be much different.

After all, when a player hits a creature with a resisted damage type, DMs will usually give a telltale sign that the attack was ineffective.

If a goblin player was attacking a Raging Barbarian NPC, I'd expect the player to be warned that his attacks were being resisted.

Should it be any different for a goblin NPC attacking a Raging Barbarian player?

This is true. Still think building a barb assuming you will always have a rage handy is asking for trouble.

[sophontteks]

What's interesting about that is, it's pretty hard to actually lose Rage as long as you're adjacent to an enemy.

Even if you don't attack and use your Action to dash, moving adjacent to an enemy will do 1 of 2 things:


Attack you, potentially with Advantage1
Move away from you, either provoking an attack2a or Disengaging2b.



1: A DM can impose Advantage or Disadvantage depending on a situation. It seems reasonable that if a Barbarian can cause Advantage to attack him by gaining Advantage himself, that the Barbarian would be able to grant Advantage to attack him for no personal benefit to his attack. If a Barbarian can choose to be stupid for aggression, can't he just choose to be stupid?

2a: You attempted an attack. You maintain your Rage.

2b: You lose your Rage, but the enemy will likely deal no damage this turn. You've nullified the enemy's contribution for the round.
The enemy just has to do nothing and they've nullified your contribution to the round as well.

Canceling each other out isn't bad, but I'd rather make a full attack action every round vs. a reaction.