Transmute Rock Consensus

[ImproperJustice]

Transmute Rock: lesser known 5th level spell that converts up to 40 cubic feet of rock into difficult terrain and sticky mud.

If you cast it in a ceiling, you presumably bury some unfortunate souls in mud for 4d8 bludgeoning damage.

Here is the question I am seeking consensus for:

Should those under the mud ceiling be vulnerable to the difficult terrain effects of casting it on the ground or vulnerable to the rock to mid effect after?

On the one hand, RAW: You inflicted 4d8 damage, good job. Way to go with a 5th level spell to do an average of 18 damage to a 40’ cube.


On the other, you just buried some folks under 40 cubic feet of mud.
Google says one cubic foot of mud weighs minimum of 76 lbs. So yeah, that’s like 1.5 tons of mud. Personally I think that means your dead or in serious distress, but I will roll with 4d8 bludgeoning damage and think you should now be dealing with difficult terrain as outlined in the spell.


Fellow forumites: Your thoughts and opinions?

[Lunali]

You'd be hard pressed to find a ceiling that could be changed into more than a few feet thick of mud outside of a cave. Assuming you did, it would be 64000 cubic feet of mud, though a given person would only be under the 35 feet or so directly above them. As for the weight, most of the weight of the mud above will be supported by the mud below, much like someone in water, though if it were deep enough it might start doing damage.

[bid]

Transmute mud to rock is 10' deep, so it might be argued that "you can see" doesn't go deeper.
And for rock to mud, an action with no DC is enough to pull out after you sink in, it can't be all that deep.

But yeah, "duration: until dispelled" means the mud stays there forever. It will not be as bad as the 4x from casting on the floor, but even a foot of loose earth should be enough to get the 2x of difficult terrain.


Now I don't think it's supported by RAW, but casting it from 10' below ground to 10' above ceiling (20' ceiling is high) would give you both effects. I say "not supported" because you'd have 2 areas to choose.

[Dalebert]

Personally I think that means your dead or in serious distress, but I will roll with 4d8 bludgeoning damage and think you should now be dealing with difficult terrain as outlined in the spell.


Considering that a normal person has a d6 hp and an exceptional person maybe adds 2 or 3 from a con bonus, it's pretty overwhelmingly deadly. Player characters with classes live through all sorts of "pretty deadly" things. Consider a giant cone of fire from a dragon.

BTW, my app could be wrong but mine says it's instantaneous; not "until dispelled". It's a key difference meaning the change happens and the magic is over. There's nothing to dispel.

[ImproperJustice]

So based off initial responses, folks feel the damage output is ok, and there may be a significant enough pile of mud on the floor underneath the newly converted ceiling to be of at least a half movement penalty.

[jh12]

Depending on the size of the room, I would have the reduced movement penalty either apply to the whole room or not at all. The mud that drops from the ceiling is described as slowly flowing mud. Unless it's dropping into some kind of above ground swimming pool, it's going to sploosh out as it hits the ground.

[Joe the Rat]

That's where I'd go with it - normal difficult terrain unless / until it spreads enough to not be an issue. casting on the floor creates a contained mud pit.

[Yunru]

But yeah, "duration: until dispelled" means the mud stays there forever.

Hmmm...
Cast spell.
Collect mud for later.
Throw mud on enemies.
Cast Dispel Magic.

[Pharaon]

...40 cubic feet ...

... a 40’ cube....


Lunali mentioned it but I'd like to draw attention to this bit: 40 cubic feet is significantly different than a 40 foot cube.

A 40 foot cube contains 64,000 cubic feet, which (using the provided weight for a volume of mud) would be more that 2,400 tons of mud - almost 4.9 million pounds.

[Dalebert]

Throw mud on enemies.
Cast Dispel Magic.

Doesn't work. There's nothing to dispel. The duration is instantaneous.

[Rukelnikov]

Lunali mentioned it but I'd like to draw attention to this bit: 40 cubic feet is significantly different than a 40 foot cube.

A 40 foot cube contains 64,000 cubic feet, which (using the provided weight for a volume of mud) would be more that 2,400 tons of mud - almost 4.9 million pounds.


Doesn't work. There's nothing to dispel. The duration is instantaneous.

From XGE:

"Duration: Until dispelled

You choose an area of stone or mud that you can see that fits within a 40-foot cube and is within range, and choose one of the following effects."

Yup, its a LOAD of mud, properly used, like in the columns of a bridge for instance, it would bring a structure down.

[Raxxius]

From XGE:

"Duration: Until dispelled

You choose an area of stone or mud that you can see that fits within a 40-foot cube and is within range, and choose one of the following effects."

Yup, its a LOAD of mud, properly used, like in the columns of a bridge for instance, it would bring a structure down.

And in the reverse could be used like concrete.

[Dalebert]

From XGE:

"Duration: Until dispelled


So my app has it wrong after all.

[ImproperJustice]

And in the reverse could be used like concrete.

Yeah. This is what raised my eyebrows when reading the description and lead to some interesting conversation post game.

There is just so much mud from that 40’ cube.....
Aimed correctly most walls or supports are just toast.
And on top of people that seems like mudslide category effects.

[qube]

So yeah, that’s like 1.5 tons of mud. Personally I think that means your deaddepends on how it drops. It's not a solid block anymore. If it's a fast drip & streaming thing, I can see 4d8 being realistic.

But yeah, most of the power of the spell doesn't come from the damage - but from the effect (40 ft cube worth of structural integrity, gone)

[Asmotherion]

Transmute Rock: lesser known 5th level spell that converts up to 40 cubic feet of rock into difficult terrain and sticky mud.

If you cast it in a ceiling, you presumably bury some unfortunate souls in mud for 4d8 bludgeoning damage.

Here is the question I am seeking consensus for:

Should those under the mud ceiling be vulnerable to the difficult terrain effects of casting it on the ground or vulnerable to the rock to mid effect after?

On the one hand, RAW: You inflicted 4d8 damage, good job. Way to go with a 5th level spell to do an average of 18 damage to a 40’ cube.


On the other, you just buried some folks under 40 cubic feet of mud.
Google says one cubic foot of mud weighs minimum of 76 lbs. So yeah, that’s like 1.5 tons of mud. Personally I think that means your dead or in serious distress, but I will roll with 4d8 bludgeoning damage and think you should now be dealing with difficult terrain as outlined in the spell.


Fellow forumites: Your thoughts and opinions?

i don't believe the mud is 40 cubic feet but square feet Otherwise the damage would not be 4d8 and closer to 20d6 not including suffocation); This would mean probably 1 cubic foot in volume.

Still being burried under 1 cubic foot of mud from witch you need to go through to leave the area is more than enough to impose difficult terain.

[hymer]

So my app has it wrong after all.
It probably uses the early text on the spell. I seem to recall a problem about the duration being instantaneous, and yet the spell being a Concentration spell.
There was an update in XGtE, and maybe your app didn't get updated with it.

[JackPhoenix]

So my app has it wrong after all.

Not wrong per se, it's got instantaneous duration in Elemental Evil Player Companion, where it first appeared. XGtE changed it.

[OvisCaedo]

It is very bizarre to me that the spell by RAW doesn't really... specify what happens to all of the mud when you drop it from the ceiling. It's a massive potential amount of mud, and all that's mentioned is... a very tiny amount of bludgeoning damage...? Eh??? And it even got reprinted, with a change to the duration (as noted by other posters), but no other changes. Maybe they felt the spell was just too long already, but it's still very out of place feeling.

At the least it seems like it should still end up inflicting the "ground" effect on some area. It's the same huge mass of sticky mud, after all...?

[Segev]

It is very bizarre to me that the spell by RAW doesn't really... specify what happens to all of the mud when you drop it from the ceiling. It's a massive potential amount of mud, and all that's mentioned is... a very tiny amount of bludgeoning damage...? Eh??? And it even got reprinted, with a change to the duration (as noted by other posters), but no other changes. Maybe they felt the spell was just too long already, but it's still very out of place feeling.

At the least it seems like it should still end up inflicting the "ground" effect on some area. It's the same huge mass of sticky mud, after all...?

Does the spell spell out the difficult terrain effect if cast on a floor? If so, they probably just expect DMs to extrapolate what happens when a pile of mud is on the floor, rather than replacing the floor. Remember that 5e is all about "rulings, not rules," and this sounds like the kind of old-school at-the-table ruling that Gygax and Co. were (in)famous for.

[Man_Over_Game]

5e doesn't aim for realism. It's aim is for balance and heroics.

If they made the spell deal realistic damage, they'd have to jack up the level to compensate.

If they jacked up the level, nobody would use it due to the rarity of high level slots/prepared spells.

So rather than making a spell that nobody would use or would be extremely overpowered in the right situation, they just made it a little more accessible and slightly overpowered in the right situation.