Vicious Mockery houserule

[BarneyBent]

Hi all, wanted to get some feedback on a buff to the Vicious Mockery cantrip.

Vicious Mockery is fun and super flavourful. But it’s one of the worst-scaling damage cantrips. The difference between a d4 and a d6/8 only gets greater when it becomes 2d4 vs 2d6/8, etc, and the rider effect of disadvantage only affects one attack, which as enemies increasingly gain multiattack becomes proportionally less useful.

So I’m considering a tweak that would allow the disadvantage to affect 2 attacks at level 5, 3 attacks at level 11, and 4 at 17, but ONLY before the end of the target’s next turn (so no piling up of disadvantage against creatures with a single, powerful attack).

The aim is to make Vicious Mockery a worthwhile cantrip from level 5 upwards by keeping the rider effect relevant without transforming it into a primarily damage based cantrip (like Firebolt, Toll the Dead, etc).

Thoughts? Any potential issues I’ve missed?

[Potato_Priest]

Seems like a houserule that effectively deals with the issue you want to address. Do you plan on doing the same for frostbite? (the elemental evil cantrip with a similar effect)

[DarkKnightJin]

So, your proposed change is that the target, on a failed save, has Disadvantage on the first [x] attack rolls before the end of their next turn, with [x] being equal to the 'tier' the character currently is at?

Sounds good to me. Might put that into my own campaign to let people feel a bit better about using Vicious Mockery at higher levels.

[BarneyBent]

Seems like a houserule that effectively deals with the issue you want to address. Do you plan on doing the same for frostbite? (the elemental evil cantrip with a similar effect)

Nobody has that cantrip in my campaign, but I’d consider it. It’s less of a priority because a) it’s slightly higher damage (albeit more commonly resisted), b) it’s generally not the sole damage-dealing cantrip an entire class has access to, and c) it’s not nearly as fun flavour wise. But sure, it makes sense.

[qube]

and the rider effect of disadvantage only affects one attack, which as enemies increasingly gain multiattack becomes proportionally less useful.I was going to say "do they though?" (as monsters are really just calculated by their total damage output, not the amount of attacks). But it seems both my tests confirm your claim.

test 1 : alphabetically first monster of CR
(removing good dragons, as too much dragons might skew rthe results, and you don't usually fight them.)

CR / number of attacks (* indicating extra attacks in legendairy actions)

1/4 1 Axe Beak
1/2 2 Ape
1 2 Animated Armor
2 1 Ankheg
3 1 Basilisk
4 1 Black Pudding

5 2 Air Elemental
6 3 Chimera
7 2 Giant Ape
8 2 Assassin
9 3 Bone Devil

10 3 Aboleth
11 2 Behir
12 1 Archmage
13 3 Nalfeshnee
14 3* Adult Black Dragon

15 2* Mummy Lord (one of which is a save)
16 3* Adult Blue Dragon
17 2* Androsphinx
19 2 Balor
20 3* Ancient White Dragon
test 2: single monster with different CR: the white dragon
CR / attacks
CR 2 (Wyrmling): 1 attack
CR 6 (Young): 3 attacks
CR 13+ (Adult+): 3, and 3 legendairy actions it could use on attacks if it wanted


so, I got no objections to it :)

[Lyracian]

Thoughts? Any potential issues I’ve missed?
It makes an already good cantrip better. Rules wise I would just go with the target has disadvantage on all its attacks rather than limiting it by tier.

Personally I do not think it is needed but I have not played at high level. Giving a Dragon disadvantage on even a single attack is still a big debuff for its damage output.

[diplomancer]

I have thought of that before, but I feel it is too strong; MAYBE allowing it for 2 attacks at level 10, and 3 at level 20.

For all practical purposes, you are allowing a cantrip to heal huge amounts of damage. Let's suppose a monster with 3 attacks, each one doing 15 points of damage (about CR 11), and improved vicious mockery makes it miss 2 of its 3 attacks when all of them would have hit (which is quite likely). This is equivalent to healing 30 points of damage with a cantrip.

Ray of Frost's debuff does not increase by Tier either, and it would be way overpowered if it did, even though most monsters mobility also tend to increase as the levels go up.

If you really feel Vicious Mockery scales too badly for players too use at higher tiers, I suggest increasing the damage scaling to 1d6, 1d8, or even 2d4 extra damage per tier; it is still crap damage (but now not so crap) with a nice debuff.

[Talderas]

Thoughts? Any potential issues I’ve missed?

You've missed the damage type. It deals psychic damage which is second best next to force. increasing the damage on it would make it a bit too powerful for a cantrip with a rider.

If extra attack is really where you're having an issue with it then I would suggest that you modify it to be

"On a failed save the target suffers disadvantage on attack rolls made during its next action, reaction, or bonus action."

[Aquillion]

Rules wise I would just go with the target has disadvantage on all its attacks rather than limiting it by tier.I would suggest this. It's simpler and scales automatically, without having to track extra stuff.

[Potato_Priest]

I would suggest this. It's simpler and scales automatically, without having to track extra stuff.

On the other hand, it will dramatically change the threat level of things like quicklings that pack many more attacks than one might expect at their CR.

[BarneyBent]

I would suggest this. It's simpler and scales automatically, without having to track extra stuff.

Agree that it’s simpler, but it becomes a bit too powerful against creatures with many attacks early on, potentially throwing off balance, particularly in the early game when the cantrip is actually fine.

[PhantomSoul]

Maybe instead go for hitting one creature per tier, with each only getting disadvantage on a single attack? Still only 1 attack and it's going to have a niche in affecting multiple creatures with a reasonable debuff (plus you strategise which creatures you target if there are different types). It boosts the feeling of offering support, plus mocking more targets could be fun!

[Kane0]

Seems alright to me.

[DarkKnightJin]

Maybe instead go for hitting one creature per tier, with each only getting disadvantage on a single attack? Still only 1 attack and it's going to have a niche in affecting multiple creatures with a reasonable debuff (plus you strategise which creatures you target if there are different types). It boosts the feeling of offering support, plus mocking more targets could be fun!

This would be the other option for buffing the cantrip that I would consider.
Might give players that have VM the option when they hit 5th level. But they're stuck with the choice they make.

[diplomancer]

How about this: The damage scaling does not change, first attack has disadvantage, make a new saving throw for each subsequent attack to see if they also have disadvantage.

I think this makes the improvement more in line with other cantrips, but it has the disadvantage of slowing down the game a bit (but really very little- you can even, after the first saving throw fails, immediately roll saving throws for all the other attacks that could be affected).

It is also very similar to affecting one more creature per tier, since each will get a separate saving throw. Having just one saving throw and then disadvantage on all the affected attacks is just too strong.

[MrStabby]

Just be careful of magic initiate or sorcerers that can twin it.

It is generally a pretty solid cantrip anyway - not the best but a good debuff. Casters, are not supposed to have top tier at will damage. Pure control cantrips also don't seem to exist. Personally I wouldn't change it but it isn't the worst thing in the world.

Why not give it as a reward? Bard wins a competition and is rewarded with an improved spell, or learns a new technique that gives a buff. It lets the upgrade be worked into the plot without the danger of baking in expectations for future games.

[Potato_Priest]

This would be the other option for buffing the cantrip that I would consider.
Might give players that have VM the option when they hit 5th level. But they're stuck with the choice they make.

Getting it on multiple targets could decidedly improve the damage in a way you don't want, so keep that in mind.


How about this: The damage scaling does not change, first attack has disadvantage, make a new saving throw for each subsequent attack to see if they also have disadvantage.


That sounds like an annoyingly large number of saving throws, especially as you increase in levels.

[MikeRoxTheBoat]

I'd tie it in to inspiration. If viscious mockery hits, you can expend a use of your bardic inspiration to give it disadvantage on all attacks until the end of your next turn. Kind of like the Amplified Curse of the Eyeless from Bloodhunter, but tied to a cantrip attack instead of a reaction. Makes it stronger earlier, but gives it a resource cost, which also conveniently scales with Bard's increased charisma and eventually short rest inspiration.

Doesn't help people who acquire the cantrip in other ways, but Bards are supposed to be better at that stuff anyway, and it's in line with things like Warlock being better at Eldritch Blasting.

[Bloodcloud]

Maybe instead go for hitting one creature per tier, with each only getting disadvantage on a single attack? Still only 1 attack and it's going to have a niche in affecting multiple creatures with a reasonable debuff (plus you strategise which creatures you target if there are different types). It boosts the feeling of offering support, plus mocking more targets could be fun!

Oh, could be like eldritch blast: one mockery per tier. Each mockery is save or d4 psychic and disadvantage on one attack. You basically become a quickfiring insult machine, can spread it or concentrate it.

[Deadandamnation]

I think that imposing Disadvantage on all attacks Is too much, VM is already one of the best non-damage cantrip in the game.

Guidance and Guiding Bolt being the other two.

The only change i could think of is let the dmg be automatic, like that:

'the target takes 1d4 Psy dmg (increasing at 5/11/17) THAN have to make a WIS save or take disadv. On the next attack'

Another change could be remove the damage part entirely and let It debuff any attack' but It could be too much.