Is a good offense the best defense?

[Dalebert]

I finally built a barbarian. Since they only get two attacks, things like pole arm master and gwf seem crucial to keep up on dmg with the multiple attacks fighters get. And that means giving up a shield. Plus they can't use heavy armor. And then to make gwf viable, they need to wrecklessly attack.

What it boils down to is getting hit a lot and relying on rage to keep the dmg lower. You're basically on a time limit to beat enemies down before they beat you down.

I find my zealot Barb takes quite a beating pretty often, particularly if the enemy goes first before I can rage or if there are a lot of enemies or both. He feels resource intensive, burning a lot of the parties' healing during our after a fight and being very dependent on rages.

But I do manage a lot of dmg. Seems pretty impressive until you consider the cost. It's impressive enough that I feel like a DM is inclined to buff monsters to accommodate. But in doing so, I wonder if she's overlooking the cost I'm paying for that dmg output.

Anyone else finding barbarians frustrating or even feeling buyer's remorse?

[KorvinStarmast]

Anyone else finding barbarians frustrating or even feeling buyer's remorse? Nope. And it is reckless (taking no precautions), :smallsmile: not wreckless (a spotless driving record thanks to, presumably, taking precautions). :smallsmile: Barbarians fit nicely, though your point on getting hit before rage crops up a lot. Our barbarian in the current group, once rages are done for the day, will often switch to a one-handed battle axe / shield to boost the defense.

[XmonkTad]

As a zealot barbarian in particular you have class features that make it easier to come back from the dead (and cheaper!). That you're a bloody mess after every fight isnt a bug, it's a feature. The damage you soak is damage a squishy isnt taking. Yes, you could have build more defensive, especially considering your feat choice. But if I were you, I'd lean into it, and be the meat shield your team needs.

[Guy Lombard-O]

What it boils down to is getting hit a lot and relying on rage to keep the dmg lower. You're basically on a time limit to beat enemies down before they beat you down.

I find my zealot Barb takes quite a beating pretty often, particularly if the enemy goes first before I can rage or if there are a lot of enemies or both. He feels resource intensive, burning a lot of the parties' healing during our after a fight and being very dependent on rages. But I do manage a lot of dmg.

Sounds to me like you're doing it right. We have a zealot barb in my current party, and that's basically what the gig is. You both deal out and attract a lot of damage, but you can take it.

If the rest of the party is alive after the battle, then they should happily patch you up, and you should happily accept their aid. Because if they had to take all that damage themselves, they probably wouldn't still be alive to worry about things like resource management.

Barbarians are meat-shields, plain and simple. The zealot is actually even more impressive, because he can actually deal out massive damage as well as he takes it. If that's not a role you like to play in the game (I personally don't care for it), then play something different and leave barbarian to others.


Edit: OOOh, ninja'd! That's what I get for being long-winded.

[strangebloke]

'Reckless Attack' on any character that isn't a barbarian would be a serious cost-benefit analysis. Most classes depend heavily on their AC to keep them alive, and taking an effective -4 to your AC until the start of your next turn is horrific, particularly when you can only use it in melee. If it were a fighter feature, you could expect players to be composing skirmisher strategies about how to get in close, get your reckless attacks, retreat, and then drop prone.

These discussions don't happen wrt the Barbarian, because they have one of the strongest defensive features in the whole game, rage.

Barbarians without Reckless have pretty crappy damage output. Rage isn't, at the end of the day, much better than a fighting style, and while fighters and rogues and monks and paladins all get beefy scaling buffs to their offense and utility, barbarians really don't. Reckless is very much their means of making up that difference. Notably, however, reckless still isn't amazing until you factor GWM in.

[Shuruke]

I finally built a barbarian. Since they only get two attacks, things like pole arm master and gwf seem crucial to keep up on dmg with the multiple attacks fighters get. And that means giving up a shield. Plus they can't use heavy armor. And then to make gwf viable, they need to wrecklessly attack.

What it boils down to is getting hit a lot and relying on rage to keep the dmg lower. You're basically on a time limit to beat enemies down before they beat you down.

I find my zealot Barb takes quite a beating pretty often, particularly if the enemy goes first before I can rage or if there are a lot of enemies or both. He feels resource intensive, burning a lot of the parties' healing during our after a fight and being very dependent on rages.

But I do manage a lot of dmg. Seems pretty impressive until you consider the cost. It's impressive enough that I feel like a DM is inclined to buff monsters to accommodate. But in doing so, I wonder if she's overlooking the cost I'm paying for that dmg output.

Anyone else finding barbarians frustrating or even feeling buyer's remorse?

I personally have a hard time enjoying barbarian for a lot of these reasons

Especially since the dm has admittedly increased different stats on monsters to make it where even with reckless to hit is only 45% and they have rider damage they normally wouldn't.

I think it'd be nice to play one in a module.
This is my first time playing barbarian and its with a new group so that could also maybe be it

[Dalebert]

One strategy is to eat an AoO to back up and get my reaction attack when they close. The DM decided the bone Naga had warcaster and bypassed my dmg Resistance. That spontaneous buff was basically a Nerf of my otherwise sensible tactic to kill it faster.

[Misterwhisper]

Barbarians are not going to be taking any more damage than any other class in melee range, and as a matter of fact will take less than most of them.

You can use medium armor and a shield.
That is more AC than the Monk or Rogue will be having.

You can rage to take half damage from physical attacks, on top of having the biggest HP pool in the game.

The only time you will be in for more damage than normal is if you use reckless attack vs multiple people.

Zealot barbarians have no problems keeping up with damage on anyone.
Take your medium armor, shield and a one hander, rage and laugh as someone tries to kill you.


Want to feel better about yourself, fight a rogue in melee.

It is essentially impossible for a melee rogue to ever beat a barbarian.

[Man_Over_Game]

Barbarians are not going to be taking any more damage than any other class in melee range, and as a matter of fact will take less than most of them.

You can use medium armor and a shield.
That is more AC than the Monk or Rogue will be having.

You can rage to take half damage from physical attacks, on top of having the biggest HP pool in the game.

The only time you will be in for more damage than normal is if you use reckless attack vs multiple people.

Zealot barbarians have no problems keeping up with damage on anyone.
Take your medium armor, shield and a one hander, rage and laugh as someone tries to kill you.


Want to feel better about yourself, fight a rogue in melee.

It is essentially impossible for a melee rogue to ever beat a barbarian.

Well...that's a big MAYBE on that last part. A Swashbuckler can easily Dash each turn and stay out of the Barbarian's range. Get proficiency in whips, and it'd be a pretty easy (long) fight for the Rogue.

[Dalebert]

You can use medium armor and a shield.


Even if I could rebuild for that, I'd be taking a massive dmg hit by giving up pole arm master and GWF.

[Misterwhisper]

Even if I could rebuild for that, I'd be taking a massive dmg hit by giving up pole arm master and GWF.

So just wear the armor.

I don't know what your dex is but there is a good chance that simple Half-Plate would be better than the barbarian natural armor.

[Misterwhisper]

Well...that's a big MAYBE on that last part. A Swashbuckler can easily Dash each turn and stay out of the Barbarian's range. Get proficiency in whips, and it'd be a pretty easy (long) fight for the Rogue.

The barbarian could also just use a whip, and they are already proficient in it.

[LudicSavant]

Well...that's a big MAYBE on that last part. A Swashbuckler can easily Dash each turn and stay out of the Barbarian's range. Get proficiency in whips, and it'd be a pretty easy (long) fight for the Rogue.

Some ways the Barb/Rogue fight could go:
- Assassin build Rogue gets surprise and unloads on the Barbarian before they can rage, and if the Barbarian's still alive they go into guerilla tactics mode and try to deny the Barbarian a target for their Rage (in which case, they might lose it).
- Arcane Trickster tank Rogue has Resistance if just one attack hits due to Uncanny Dodge. And they have defensive spells going like Haste or Greater Invisibility or Mirror Image or Blur. And they keep using Booming Blade SAs and moving backwards so that the Barb has to chase 'em. They can also target saving throws and give the Barb disadvantage on the save. Or use Shadow Blade to bypass even a Bear-barian's resistance entirely.
- Half-Elf Swashbuckler Rogue with Booming Blade (picked up from their race) keeps hitting the Barb and dashing backwards, or hiding if they think they can waste the Barbarian's rage (since you need to have a target to attack every turn, or start damaging yourself, or lose it).

So yeah. Big maybe.

[ProsecutorGodot]

The barbarian could also just use a whip, and they are already proficient in it.

The swashbuckler has the benefit of being able to gain sneak attack and spec into booming blade with magic initiate. Doesn't really need to use a whip when he can leave opportunity attack range without provoking it and bonus action dash to outrun the barb. The poor Barbarian is going to be run around like an animal, assuming the Rogue doesn't get cocky near the end and take a nasty blow to the head.

I think the Barbarian's odds actually get worse the higher level we take this white room experiment, assuming we allow the rogue to take booming blade the Barbarian is going to be forced into taking Bear totem or die of attrition. I suppose the Barbarian could also take Elk and have a good chance of chasing down the Rogue before the Rogue can cut through his massive HP pool. This is a bit of a tangent though.

On topic, the meat shield playstyle is very much an acquired taste. As many have said, you're doing a great job at it but that doesn't mean very much if you aren't enjoying it. I find the playstyle very enjoyable, Redemption Paladin and Ancestral/Zealot Barbarian are a few of my favorite subclassed because they excel at being the damage taker of the party. If you're feeling that your DM is tailoring the encounters against your character, speak with them directly about it and see if that is indeed the case. It's possible that they simply want to challenge you, because as it stands it seems like your strategy (whether intentional or not) of being a big hulking brute who is difficult to kill and is a verifiable threat works pretty well.

I can't stress enough though, none of this success matters if you aren't having fun while doing it. The tank playstyle isn't for everyone. If you can't find a resolution that leaves you feeling happy about your character choice it might be time to consider a new one.

[Misterwhisper]

The swashbuckler has the benefit of being able to gain sneak attack and spec into booming blade with magic initiate. Doesn't really need to use a whip when he can leave opportunity attack range without provoking it and bonus action dash to outrun the barb. The poor Barbarian is going to be run around like an animal, assuming the Rogue doesn't get cocky near the end and take a nasty blow to the head.

I think the Barbarian's odds actually get worse the higher level we take this white room experiment, assuming we allow the rogue to take booming blade the Barbarian is going to be forced into taking Bear totem or die of attrition. I suppose the Barbarian could also take Elk and have a good chance of chasing down the Rogue before the Rogue can cut through his massive HP pool. This is a bit of a tangent though.

On topic, the meat shield playstyle is very much an acquired taste. As many have said, you're doing a great job at it but that doesn't mean very much if you aren't enjoying it. I find the playstyle very enjoyable, Redemption Paladin and Ancestral/Zealot Barbarian are a few of my favorite subclassed because they excel at being the damage taker of the party. If you're feeling that your DM is tailoring the encounters against your character, speak with them directly about it and see if that is indeed the case. It's possible that they simply want to challenge you, because as it stands it seems like your strategy (whether intentional or not) of being a big hulking brute who is difficult to kill and is a verifiable threat works pretty well.

I can't stress enough though, none of this success matters if you aren't having fun while doing it. The tank playstyle isn't for everyone. If you can't find a resolution that leaves you feeling happy about your character choice it might be time to consider a new one.

The point was that the barbarian can just stand there and ready action to hit the rogue when they try to attack.
The barbarian does not have to go anywhere.
The barbarian could also just ready action to grapple the rogue and then the rogue falls apart.

[Dalebert]

So just wear the armor.

I don't know what your dex is but there is a good chance that simple Half-Plate would be better than the barbarian natural armor.

Haven't been able to afford half plate yet. Have a breast plate that puts me at 16. Wearing nothing gets me 15. I'll probably buy magic armor soon but a +3 halberd is higher priority.

[LudicSavant]

The point was that the barbarian can just stand there and ready action to hit the rogue when they try to attack.
The barbarian does not have to go anywhere.
The barbarian could also just ready action to grapple the rogue and then the rogue falls apart.

This is very poor plan. For one thing, if the Rogue elects not to close with you (because any given melee rogue can also throw weapons), then you've just gone a round without attacking anyone, and lose your rage unless you're level 15+.

[ProsecutorGodot]

The point was that the barbarian can just stand there and ready action to hit the rogue when they try to attack.
The barbarian does not have to go anywhere.
The barbarian could also just ready action to grapple the rogue and then the rogue falls apart.

If the Barbarian starts standing still in a grappling pose or with his sword held high, the Rogue is going to laugh himself 30-60ft away and start using a short/X-bow instead. The absolute last thing the Barbarian wants is to enable the Rogue to capitalize on one of the biggest core weakness of the Barbarian class: Ranged Attacks. This also limits the Barbarian to a single attack, which allows the Rogue to take only half damage from all of the Barbarian's strikes via uncanny dodge. This actually makes the Barbarian's odds even worse.

No, his best bet is to be faster than the Rogue and to hit the Rogue harder than he gets hit back. I'm not even sure that Grappling has a very reasonable chance of working against the Rogue, especially when we level them beyond 11 where they would have Reliable Talent to make escaping even more likely.

Just stand there is probably one of the funniest arguments in favor of actually winning a duel, I'll give you that.

[Dalebert]

Grappling is a type of attack which is why you can do it as a substitute for one of your extra attacks.

[Misterwhisper]

If the Barbarian starts standing still in a grappling pose or with his sword held high, the Rogue is going to laugh himself 30-60ft away and start using a short/X-bow instead. The absolute last thing the Barbarian wants is to enable the Rogue to capitalize on one of the biggest core weakness of the Barbarian class: Ranged Attacks. This also limits the Barbarian to a single attack, which allows the Rogue to take only half damage from all of the Barbarian's strikes via uncanny dodge. This actually makes the Barbarian's odds even worse.

No, his best bet is to be faster than the Rogue and to hit the Rogue harder than he gets hit back. I'm not even sure that Grappling has a very reasonable chance of working against the Rogue, especially when we level them beyond 11 where they would have Reliable Talent to make escaping even more likely.

Just stand there is probably one of the funniest arguments in favor of actually winning a duel, I'll give you that.

I was specifically talking about a melee rogue.

[ProsecutorGodot]

I was specifically talking about a melee rogue.
A Rogue (or Martial in general) who isn't prepared to fight differently when the situation calls for it is a poor adventurer. There's no such thing as a "Melee" Rogue. Circumstances change if we formalize this and start putting limitations on the characters like "only one weapon, in a closed off 100ft radius dome etc etc" but it's clear that those limitations are meant to nerf the Rogue and benefit the Barb.

That speaks to how the matchup will most often go when played optimally on both sides if you're only intending to limit one side.


Grappling is a type of attack which is why you can do it as a substitute for one of your extra attacks.
This is true for when you take the Attack Action, but when you choose the Ready Action you only get one or the other. Extra Attacks only apply on your Attack action during your turn.

[MaxWilson]

Well...that's a big MAYBE on that last part. A Swashbuckler can easily Dash each turn and stay out of the Barbarian's range. Get proficiency in whips, and it'd be a pretty easy (long) fight for the Rogue.

Aside: proficiency is not a requirement for Sneak Attack damage, so all you're really losing if you use a whip non-proficiently is +2-3 to hit. Especially at low levels, that isn't a big deal.

[sambojin]

Even if I could rebuild for that, I'd be taking a massive dmg hit by giving up pole arm master and GWF.

Yes, you'd be losing damage, but you can always drop back to a one-handed quarterstaff or spear and a shield if you run out of rages or feel like you're sucking up too much healing.

It's not too bad damage-wise, and it's surprising just how good +2AC is. Your DM can't make *everything* super-hitty, or all the squishies will die all the time. And you'll still dribble out fairly consistent damage since you won't (can't) use GWM's -5/+10, so at least your attacks will be reliable, if somewhat whimpy.

PAM's nice for the whole tank or spank aspect of it (especially alongside GWM, so you're very good at spanking when necessary). If you fall back to tank mode once in a while, you'll probably find your DM lays off you a bit game/damage-wise, because you're not insta-popping everything you smack, while also being a bit harder to smack yourself mechanics-wise.


If you're talking about getting a +3 Halberd, I can only assume you're pretty high level, or have magic items aplenty. Get magic armour. It's better. It's harder to up your AC than it is to up your damage at later levels (or rather, you're pretty much specced into damage anyway, but are obviously lacking armour). Or dip a Cleric level if you can ASI the Wis in. Now, for two combat encounters a day, you cast Bless, then go attacking stuff. This is your tank-mode. Normal Rage is your spank mode. You just got two tank-mode "rages" a day, but that have a bit of wind-up time (although, they help others too). For when you're using your spear and shield and not getting hit as much, but are still "raging". Where you're really good at hitting stuff and have good resistances against magic stuff, which is still pretty manly, but not as damagey. Don't want to waste a turn to whimpy-rage? No worries, cast a heal spell on yourself at the end of the combat (you are no longer sucking up "too much" healing). Plus, you get a few extra Cleric gimmicks if you want to use them too. Yay!

You could even go War, with Divine Favour being an alternate slightly-less-whimpy tank-mode rage option. And Shield of Faith being your AC-needed-shields-up option. They're both bonus action, so don't entirely stop you spanking or tanking properly either on the first turn. Then you have all kinds of options. PAM+GWM+Rage super-damage halberd-mode, spear+shield+Bless party-damage-incoming/outgoing mode, spear+shield+Divine Favour middle-ground-tank-damage mode, spear+shield+Shield of Faith "I need more AC now" mode.
You also get heavy armour proficiency, just in case there's something amazing (or you need to play dress-ups some time).
The War bonus action attacks? Where you'll have, at most, 1-2 a day? I don't know. It makes a +d4+Str into a +d"x"+Str bonus action attack, depending on what weapon you're using, so it's better. Kinda. Yay!


Easy enough to roleplay. You don't even ever have to use any other spells than this, but you could if you wanted to.

Bless=Barbarian King Warcry

Divine Favour=Extreme ragey/shieldy Zealotry

Shield of Faith=Hard as nails, but quick too!

Cure Wounds/Healing Word=I will never die, and neither will you.

You don't even necessarily drop back to shield+spear with these, you can still halberd+PAM+GWM all you want. It's just extra +d4 to-hit/saves (a turn wind-up), +d4 radiant damage, +2AC, or heal-up afterwards. Alternate, extra Rages, not locked to build or weapon type. +4 AC with a shield+"crap weapon" and Shield of Faith is ace, but so's insta-popping stuff with GWM+PAM+halberd and +2AC from exactly the same spell, but you lose your +d4+Str attack that first round you cast it (almost exactly like you would with using a proper Rage). Extra forms of rage are what they are. Sure, the enemy can knock them out of you, but who has high Con and proficiency in Con saves? You do. So, Options....

You get two a day, choose which ones, on top of proper Rages. Plus, you get to act all wise and deep and stuff with Guidance, if someone's doing something technical or you just want to show off being manly at stuff. Or don't. It might be worthwhile not casting it a lot of the time too :)

[sambojin]

Could we have your character's stats and level and currently used equipment? It makes it way easier to give reasonable advice.

(though, after a certain point, it's hard to not recommend a level or three of (War?) Cleric to a Barbarian (any?), just for the extra pseudo-mini-rages and alternate damage sponging. So I stand by that advice, regardless. Fits so well into most Barbs, but especially Zealot. What power do you believe in? You, yourself, your worldview, your people, and the fact that you are going to kick some pansy arse! Done!)

War is amazeballs for martials, especially Barbs. A one level dip is great. It gives you two extra pseudo-rages. Two level dip? You just got an attack that will "definitely hit", each short rest, and an extra pseudo-rage.
At three, well, umm, you just got an extra three mini-rage-thingos. And some other stuff, but..... 6 pseudo-rages a day! You'll never really run out again!

So, yeah. Easy dips, thems are.

[hymer]

I really must object to the reckless use of reckless attack. :smallwink:

Suppose your party are fighting, and you have managed to bottle up the baddies, and they are exclusively hammering you. Great! If you use reckless attack now, the damage dealt to the party goes up by maybe 25-75%. Your damage goes up by a similar amount, but the rest of the party's damage does not. If you don't attack recklessly, the fight may get prolonged by a round or two, but the damage dealt to the party by the end of the fight is still going to be lower.

This just to say that you should not use reckless attack all the time. Consider in the context of how many attacks are aimed at you, and how important is the damage you are personally dealing in this situation.

[Dalebert]

This is true for when you take the Attack Action, but when you choose the Ready Action you only get one or the other. Extra Attacks only apply on your Attack action during your turn.

I wasn't saying you get your extra attacks when you ready. I was only pointing out that attempting a grapple is an attack and therefore it would prevent losing rage.

[Dalebert]

Could we have your character's stats and level and currently used equipment? It makes it way easier to give reasonable advice.

14(21)
14
16
8
15
8

Feats: Pole arm master, GWM
Magic items: Belt of Hill Giant str, Wings of Flying, Halberd +1

[strangebloke]

14(21)
14
16
8
15
8

Feats: Pole arm master, GWM
Magic items: Belt of Hill Giant str, Wings of Flying, Halberd +1

So your AC is 17, right? That doesn't sound too bad. You don't need to reckless attack every turn. At your level, I think you can pretty safely eat the -5 penalty against a lot of foes. You can switch things up with spear and shield and still get your PAM bonuses if you have to. Between that and Rage you should be very hearty. Temporary HP tends to be really cheap and is very efficient on you so if you can find a source for that, you can save yourself a lot of pain.

Ultimately, Barbarians are all about risk/reward.

[Dalebert]

I'm disinclined to dip war cleric just because the barbarian capstones are so damned good.


So your AC is 17, right?

It's 16 with a breast plate. If I switch to spear and shield, my weapon is no longer magical. Plus, it takes an action so it's not usually practical to decide once combat starts. I'll probably look into buying +1 half plate at some point. Maybe I'll try to trade my Halberd for a +1 spear once I can get an upgrade.

This is AL BTW.

[strangebloke]

I'm disinclined to dip war cleric just because the barbarian capstones are so damned good.

It's 16 with a breast plate. If I switch to spear and shield, my weapon is no longer magical. Plus, it takes an action so it's not usually practical to decide once combat starts. I'll probably look into buying +1 half plate at some point. Maybe I'll try to trade my Halberd for a +1 spear once I can get an upgrade.

This is AL BTW.

Nice thing about being a high-strength character is that you can carry different armor sets and swap them out depending on what you're doing. I wouldn't suggest swapping to sword and board mid-combat, but between combats, maybe, if you've taken a beating. Missing out on having a magic weapon when you switch to a spear is a downer, but that won't matter all the time.

Basically, what I'm saying is that there's no reason not to carry multiple sets of weapons, even if the halberd is your mainstay. Sometimes survivability will be more important than DPR.

Even better than +1 armor in your case is adamantine armor. It cuts the damage of a crit in half, and since enemies often have advantage against you, that happens about 10% of the time they attack. It's not quite as good as a +2, but its pretty much straight-up better than a +1, unless you frequently play with a grave cleric. Unsure of how your DM will take this, but you might be able to get +1 adamantine for the price of two uncommons as opposed to the cost of 1 rare.

[MaxWilson]

But I do manage a lot of dmg. Seems pretty impressive until you consider the cost. It's impressive enough that I feel like a DM is inclined to buff monsters to accommodate. But in doing so, I wonder if she's overlooking the cost I'm paying for that dmg output.

Anyone else finding barbarians frustrating or even feeling buyer's remorse?

Responding to several things:

(1) Barbarians tend to cap out around 5th-8th level in terms of offense. At higher levels, Fighters and Paladins start doing more damage. This is not your problem right now but it could potentially be an issue later on.

(2) Barbarians are very melee-centric and can suffer in non-dungeon-oriented games. This is also not your problem.

(3) High offense benefits the whole party (and any NPCs) by killing the monsters faster, while high defense keeps you alive personally. Increasing defense tends to be cheaper than increasing offense in 5E's design, so as an individual an all-out offensive style will tend to help your party quite a bit while hurting you personally to a certain extent. The point: if you are the only Barbarian in the party it's no wonder you're feeling the pain, but other players and the DM may perceive you as the MVP of the party.

(4) I'm generally opposed to boosting the monsters to compensate for PC abilities. I think that is unfair to the players. It sounds like your DM disagrees. I am sorry and hope it doesn't harm your fun too much. See point #3.

[jaappleton]

I finally built a barbarian. Since they only get two attacks, things like pole arm master and gwf seem crucial to keep up on dmg with the multiple attacks fighters get. And that means giving up a shield. Plus they can't use heavy armor. And then to make gwf viable, they need to wrecklessly attack.

What it boils down to is getting hit a lot and relying on rage to keep the dmg lower. You're basically on a time limit to beat enemies down before they beat you down.

I find my zealot Barb takes quite a beating pretty often, particularly if the enemy goes first before I can rage or if there are a lot of enemies or both. He feels resource intensive, burning a lot of the parties' healing during our after a fight and being very dependent on rages.

But I do manage a lot of dmg. Seems pretty impressive until you consider the cost. It's impressive enough that I feel like a DM is inclined to buff monsters to accommodate. But in doing so, I wonder if she's overlooking the cost I'm paying for that dmg output.

Anyone else finding barbarians frustrating or even feeling buyer's remorse?

Your source of defense as a Barbarian isn't your AC. Its your HP.

You're going to get hit. That's it, that's the long and short of it, unfortunately. However, due to your (hopefully) high Constitution and massive HP, your HP should be going farther than it would for any other character. For you, 50HP should be closer to 80HP.

And its for this reason, and this reason alone, that the best offense is PURE ****ING OFFENSE. You need to straight-up murder enemies faces. You're going to get hit regardless, so draw as much enemy blood as you possibly can.

Dead enemies don't deal damage.

Blood for the Blood God
Skulls for the Skull Throne

[Temperjoke]

In a sense this is also related to the healbot issue, "Is it better to spend spellslots on damage or healing?" cause the obvious point is, dead enemies don't do damage so killing them faster means less healing required. Logically, the same thing applies to barbarian damage versus defense. You don't have to worry about taking damage if there's no one left to hurt you.

On the other hand, you can't do damage if you're dead.

[MaxWilson]

Oh! Since you're a PAM/GWM Barbarian, let me mention one of the tricks you can do to minimize the amount of damage you take.

Initial situation: you're fighting a small group of monsters (maybe 1-3 monsters) and you're in melee with one of them. The monster is not Huge or Gargantuan and its movement speed is no higher than 70', e.g. cannot be a dragon.

Your turn:
Action: Attack twice, once to Shove an enemy prone (at advantage on your Strength check if Raging), and once to attack (at advantage because they're hopefully prone). If the first Shove doesn't work, Shove again instead of attacking.
Bonus action: Bonus action PAM attack, at advantage because they're prone.
Movement: back up 20' so you are 25' away (more if they've got reach weapons). Your goal is ensure that after they spend half their movement standing up, they need to Dash in order to get back within reach of you. You also want them to be out of reach of the other PCs. Because you're not Disengaging, they get an opportunity attack against you, at disadvantage because they're prone.

Their turn:
Either they Dash to catch up to you (so they can't attack, AND you hit them with another PAM attack, and next round you do it all over again) or they Dash to threaten other PCs (so you have to change tactics and maybe Recklessly attack for a round without retreating while the other PC Disengages away) or sometimes they use a ranged attack which is usually much weaker than their melee attack.

Result: you got two GWM attacks at advantage plus one GWM without advantage this round instead of three at advantage, but you didn't use Reckless and you only took one attack at disadvantage instead of a full Multiattack sequence at advantage.

For example, against e.g. a CR 6 Duergar Warlord, you'd take a Psychic Hammer opportunity attack at disadvantage and three javelin attacks (avg ((att 16 7d (d10+4)/2+d10)+(3.att 16 7 (d6+4)/2) (https://shiningsword.blob.core.windows.net/public/v0.3/index.html#battle)) = 10.18 DPR on average against your AC 16 after accounting for Rage resistance), instead of Recklessly taking three Psychic Hammer attacks at advantage (avg ((3.att 16 7a (d10+4)/2+d10)) (https://shiningsword.blob.core.windows.net/public/v0.3/index.html#battle) = 27.61 DPR on average).

In this example, you're cutting the damage you take by almost 2/3 while still dealing lots of damage in return, just by changing your tactics.

[Man_Over_Game]

If the first Shove doesn't work, Shove again instead of attacking.

A bit of an error, here. You can't use Polearm Master's Bonus Action attack if you have not attacked with a qualifying weapon. A Shove does not count as an Attack, but rather is a replacement for an Attack.

https://rpg.stackexchange.com/a/124392/45619

[MaxWilson]

A bit of an error, here. You can't use Polearm Master's Bonus Action attack if you have not attacked with a qualifying weapon. A Shove does not count as an Attack, but rather is a replacement for an Attack.

https://rpg.stackexchange.com/a/124392/45619

Good point, though I'd argue the error is actually on the following line about the PAM reaction attack: you don't get it if you made two Shoves, unless you Shoved with your polearm and your DM okays that rules interpretation.

If your first Shove fails, you still have a choice at that point between Shoving again (so you can get out of range, not get attacked, and make your PAM reaction attack later) or making a regular attack and staying in melee. I'd advocate for making the second Shove attempt.

[Misterwhisper]

Your source of defense as a Barbarian isn't your AC. Its your HP.

You're going to get hit. That's it, that's the long and short of it, unfortunately. However, due to your (hopefully) high Constitution and massive HP, your HP should be going farther than it would for any other character. For you, 50HP should be closer to 80HP.

And its for this reason, and this reason alone, that the best offense is PURE ****ING OFFENSE. You need to straight-up murder enemies faces. You're going to get hit regardless, so draw as much enemy blood as you possibly can.

Dead enemies don't deal damage.

Blood for the Blood God
Skulls for the Skull Throne

That is the major problem with the mentality of barbarian players.

There is nothing wrong with the ac of barbarians.

They can easily have more ac than a monk or a rogue. And short of a fighting style their ac is the same as anyone with medium armor

[jaappleton]

That is the major problem with the mentality of barbarian players.

There is nothing wrong with the ac of barbarians.

They can easily have more ac than a monk or a rogue. And short of a fighting style their ac is the same as anyone with medium armor

I could've worded my initial post better.

IMO, save for a few scenarios, Barbs should almost always be attacking recklessly. Personally, I'm vehemently opposed to Barbs that aren't using Heavy weapons with GWM. Its kinda their whole thing. I KNOW that you can build a perfectly viable sword and board Barb, or even a dual wielding one. But to me... Hit, and hit HARD.

So, Reckless Attack with GWM. This means enemy attacks have Advantage against you, meaning that even with a good AC... You're likely still gonna get hit.

And if you're gonna get hit ANYWAY... Murder faces.

[MaxWilson]

I could've worded my initial post better.

IMO, save for a few scenarios, Barbs should almost always be attacking recklessly. Personally, I'm vehemently opposed to Barbs that aren't using Heavy weapons with GWM. Its kinda their whole thing. I KNOW that you can build a perfectly viable sword and board Barb, or even a dual wielding one. But to me... Hit, and hit HARD.

So, Reckless Attack with GWM. This means enemy attacks have Advantage against you, meaning that even with a good AC... You're likely still gonna get hit.

And if you're gonna get hit ANYWAY... Murder faces.

Barbs have high movement rates--you might as well use it. Even if you're not using grapple/prone tricks, you might as well use the same kinds of tricks that fast monsters sometimes use, and turn Multiattacks into opportunity attacks using your 40' movement rate. There's no point in taking 20 HP of damage when you could turn it into 10 HP.

[strangebloke]

I could've worded my initial post better.

IMO, save for a few scenarios, Barbs should almost always be attacking recklessly. Personally, I'm vehemently opposed to Barbs that aren't using Heavy weapons with GWM. Its kinda their whole thing. I KNOW that you can build a perfectly viable sword and board Barb, or even a dual wielding one. But to me... Hit, and hit HARD.

So, Reckless Attack with GWM. This means enemy attacks have Advantage against you, meaning that even with a good AC... You're likely still gonna get hit.

And if you're gonna get hit ANYWAY... Murder faces.

TWF barbs have better featless damage at most levels, and if you're not using GWM there's no real reason to use reckless attack a lot of the time.

In a game with feats, I generally agree with you, but sometimes you won't have rage available if your DM is making the game even a little difficult, and then reckless becomes a worry. Even then, though, the idea of barbarian as just a "GWM class" kind of limits people's thinking. There's other fun builds that are pretty effective. A grappler barbarian is awesome.

Like, think about this:
You're an elk totem barbarian with a base movement speed of 55 feet per round at level 5. You took Tavern Brawler at level 4 to round your strength up to 18. You run in, spend one attack to knock them prone, spend a second attack to hit with advantage, then grapple them with a bonus action and run 25 feet back.

Bonus, do this as a lizardfolk and drag them underwater. Or an aaracockra and drop them 25 feet.

[Dalebert]

Unsure of how your DM will take this, but you might be able to get +1 adamantine for the price of two uncommons as opposed to the cost of 1 rare.

No such thing as +1 adamantine unless it's Homebrew and this is AL.

[Guy Lombard-O]

Barbs have high movement rates--you might as well use it. Even if you're not using grapple/prone tricks, you might as well use the same kinds of tricks that fast monsters sometimes use, and turn Multiattacks into opportunity attacks using your 40' movement rate. There's no point in taking 20 HP of damage when you could turn it into 10 HP.

Our party's barbarian doesn't play that way. And we're all very, very glad of that fact.

Barbarians are the tanks, the damage takers, the meat shield. If they start kiting like a rogue, then the rest of the party is left unprotected.

So while you're absolutely correct that they can do it, I don't really think they generally should.

[MaxWilson]

Our party's barbarian doesn't play that way. And we're all very, very glad of that fact.

Barbarians are the tanks, the damage takers, the meat shield. If they start kiting like a rogue, then the rest of the party is left unprotected.

So while you're absolutely correct that they can do it, I don't really think they generally should.

It depends on the situation. I'd argue that if another PC is close enough to a monster that knocking it prone won't prevent it from attacking that PC next round, then that isn't a situation covered by "There's no point in taking 20 HP of damage when you could turn it into 10 HP." That's a situation where you have to take 20 HP of damage to do your job.

But if everyone else is 40' away from the Earth Elemental shooting arrows and casting spells, and the Barb is the one who's in melee with it, then why take the damage if you don't have to?

[spartan_ah]

just take rogue levels and lose the halberd.

and one more thing, 10hp monster delivers the same damage as 100hp monster. so yeah, offense is the best defense

[Dalebert]

just take rogue levels and lose the halberd.

Haha! NOT. I've got plenty of rogues already.

[sophontteks]

Our party's barbarian doesn't play that way. And we're all very, very glad of that fact.

Barbarians are the tanks, the damage takers, the meat shield. If they start kiting like a rogue, then the rest of the party is left unprotected.

So while you're absolutely correct that they can do it, I don't really think they generally should.
I like fast barbarians with grappling and a shield. The speed isn't there to kite. The speed is to get in the face of the enemy and prevent them from kiting. Other martials may be relegated to fighting with the enemy front line while the back line wrecks havoc. Fast barbarians, like eagle and elk, run right past the enemy front line and right into the soft juicy heart of the enemy. With the formation shattered, the enemy has no choice but to have their front line fall back to peel the barbarian off of the back line. The barbarian has effectively forced the entire enemy group to focus exclusively on him. This is how you tank.

Compare to a traditional tank assuming the DM uses some tactics. If the barbarian just engages the front line, there isn't really stopping the enemy from running past the barbarian to attack the rest of the party. Even with feats the barbarian is limited to one reaction. Meanwhile the enemy backline too is perfectly happy to wail on the barbarians friends unimpeded. Is this really tanking? The barbarian isn't technically stopping more then a single foe from attacking other targets. This barbarian has to try to DPS in order to get the enemy's attention, which, well, makes him a DPS, not a tank.

If instead the barbarian runs 80 feet, ignoring reactions, and grapples one of the backline. Well, someone from the front line will have to stop the barbarian. The rest of the back line will have to reposition, preventing them from attacking other friendlies. And the grappled target can't even make ranged attacks effectively anymore. The barbarian has a shield, so his AC is through the roof. He's happy to take everything the enemy's got. No need for GWM or PAM. He's a tank not a DPS.


Haha! NOT. I've got plenty of rogues already.
One rogue level for cunning action. The rest totem barbarian. Grab elk totem. The barbarian now moves at 110 feet per round. The barbarian drags grappled targets 55 feet per round. If there is any hazardous terrain the enemy is in trouble. Just imagine if there is a cliff or something. Every round an enemy is going over.

[Dalebert]

One rogue level for cunning action. The rest totem barbarian. Grab elk totem. The barbarian now moves at 110 feet per round. The barbarian drags grappled targets 55 feet per round. If there is any hazardous terrain the enemy is in trouble. Just imagine if there is a cliff or something. Every round an enemy is going over.

Your certainly welcome to speculate wildly about the builds you want to try but this character is already tier 3 zealot barbarian so it's venturing quite off topic. Also, takes two levels of rogue for cunning action.

[sophontteks]

Your certainly welcome to speculate wildly about the builds you want to try but this character is already tier 3 zealot barbarian so it's venturing quite off topic. Also, takes two levels of rogue for cunning action.
My bad on rogue.

I'm talking about tanking philosophies, not your character in specific. Were talking about barbarians and tanking in this thread. Like the question posed in the OP:
"Anyone else finding barbarians frustrating or even feeling buyer's remorse?"

[MaxWilson]

I like fast barbarians with grappling and a shield. The speed isn't there to kite. The speed is to get in the face of the enemy and prevent them from kiting. Other martials may be relegated to fighting with the enemy front line while the back line wrecks havoc. Fast barbarians, like eagle and elk, run right past the enemy front line and right into the soft juicy heart of the enemy. With the formation shattered, the enemy has no choice but to have their front line fall back to peel the barbarian off of the back line. The barbarian has effectively forced the entire enemy group to focus exclusively on him. This is how you tank.... The barbarian has a shield, so his AC is through the roof. He's happy to take everything the enemy's got. No need for GWM or PAM. He's a tank not a DPS.

If he's using a shield and grappling, with no GWM or PAM, the enemy isn't forced to do anything at all. He's not a serious threat even to the back line. The back line can just spread out slightly to avoid letting him impose disadvantage on any ranged attacks within 5', and they can just ignore the barbarian and focus on hammering the squishiest PCs.

Now, it could be that the enemy will be foolish and will choose to (stupidly) focus on the barbarian, but my point is that the enemy isn't being forced. This is a trick/gambit/ploy, not a forcing move. You're hoping to fool the enemy into doing something stupid.

I would hope that your DM lets it work quite frequently, especially against dumber monsters, but against smart monsters like githyankis and mind flayers it would be a bad move.

[Teaguethebean]

Considering you have wings of flying just fly 10ft over the enemies and be unhittable if the enemies only have a 5ft range and picking up sentinel would make the enemies unable to leave your range to attack your party. That could reduce alot of dmg onto you. Also don't get a +3 halberd it is the same rarity as +2 Half plate and 2 more ac will do better than +2 to hit. I would say a +6 with advantage to hit being made a +8 isn't as good as your ac jumping from 16 to 19.

[sophontteks]

If he's using a shield and grappling, with no GWM or PAM, the enemy isn't forced to do anything at all. He's not a serious threat even to the back line. The back line can just spread out slightly to avoid letting him impose disadvantage on any ranged attacks within 5', and they can just ignore the barbarian and focus on hammering the squishiest PCs.

Now, it could be that the enemy will be foolish and will choose to (stupidly) focus on the barbarian, but my point is that the enemy isn't being forced. This is a trick/gambit/ploy, not a forcing move. You're hoping to fool the enemy into doing something stupid.

I would hope that your DM lets it work quite frequently, especially against dumber monsters, but against smart monsters like githyankis and mind flayers it would be a bad move.
Tavern brawler would be essential to the shield build, and I should have mentioned it. Otherwise a longsword would probably be best.

The threat comes from terrain. Unless you are playing on a whiteboard, there is normally something that can be used to a grappler's advantage. If not, a bit of teamwork goes a long way. There are some seriously oppressive AOE spells that work with grappling, like cloud of daggers and sickening radiance.

Obviously there is too much speculation to say one specific tactic and expect it to work all the time. It's just an example of how speed can be used to force the enemy's attention.

For your example with mindflayers. Mindflayers tend to have servants fighting for them, so they are a great example. Why fight the servants? The barbarian can go right for the mindflayer. The servants are there to protect the mindflayer, so they would probably move to protect it.

It's not always a viable strategy, but on the other hand I don't think barbarians will ever succeed at tanking through superior damage. They don't have great DPS.

[Dalebert]

Considering you have wings of flying just fly 10ft over the enemies and be unhittable if the enemies only have a 5ft range and picking up sentinel would make the enemies unable to leave your range to attack your party. That could reduce alot of dmg onto you. Also don't get a +3 halberd it is the same rarity as +2 Half plate and 2 more ac will do better than +2 to hit. I would say a +6 with advantage to hit being made a +8 isn't as good as your ac jumping from 16 to 19.

The winds have limited usage. I have to save them for when needed to close or boss fights.

Half plate +2 needs to be unlocked. Best I could do is +1.

[GlenSmash!]

The winds have limited usage. I have to save them for when needed to close or boss fights.

Half plate +2 needs to be unlocked. Best I could do is +1.

Half plate +1 or 2 is pretty solid, however as has been pointed out if recklessly attacking you are going to get hit. AC just won't matter much. Adamantine armor turning crits into normal damage might be more useful if you plan to reckless attack a lot. Dragon Scale would be nice for getting another damage resistance type.

Both of these won't help much if your DM is just bypassing resistances.

On my Zealot I like to be versatile. On bosses that have typically high ac and/or can hit me no matter what my AC is I recklessly attack all the time. But in fights with hordes I try to target as many enemies as possible and spread the damage around. Especially if I know I can take them out in a single hit using GWM. I also take advantage of Longbow Proficiency + the fact that my Radiant damage can be delivered at range. It's useful when closing into melee will take more than one round, or if for whatever reason I want to stay back.

There's no one tactic that will be good for every fight, I just experiment as I go.

Lastly I've told our healer not to waste a point of healing on me unless I hit 0 hp. I kill things just as effectively with 1 hp as with max hp. Out of combat Healing Spirit and short rests keep me from burning up our parties spell slots on healing.

[MaxWilson]

Tavern brawler would be essential to the shield build, and I should have mentioned it. Otherwise a longsword would probably be best.

The threat comes from terrain. Unless you are playing on a whiteboard, there is normally something that can be used to a grappler's advantage. If not, a bit of teamwork goes a long way. There are some seriously oppressive AOE spells that work with grappling, like cloud of daggers and sickening radiance.

Obviously there is too much speculation to say one specific tactic and expect it to work all the time. It's just an example of how speed can be used to force the enemy's attention.

For your example with mindflayers. Mindflayers tend to have servants fighting for them, so they are a great example. Why fight the servants? The barbarian can go right for the mindflayer. The servants are there to protect the mindflayer, so they would probably move to protect it.

It's not always a viable strategy, but on the other hand I don't think barbarians will ever succeed at tanking through superior damage. They don't have great DPS.

If the scenario is "Tavern Brawler Barbarian evades six goblins in order to run up and grapple a Mind Flayer while the squishy wizard casts Cloud of Daggers on it", then still the front line isn't "forced" to focus on killing the Barbarian. It still makes sense for the goblins to just exploit the hole in the PCs' front line and shoot the squishy wizard, disrupting his concentration and ending Cloud of Daggers. Meanwhile the Mind Flayer takes advantage of the fact that the Barbarian has weak Int saves and a weak-ish AC and either Mind Blasts him or disables him with its tentacles.

If he were a GWM/PAM barb this would be more of a credible threat, but a grappler and a concentration spell? Weak threat, IMO, not one that will force the Mind Flayer's hand.

[sophontteks]

If the scenario is "Tavern Brawler Barbarian evades six goblins in order to run up and grapple a Mind Flayer while the squishy wizard casts Cloud of Daggers on it", then still the front line isn't "forced" to focus on killing the Barbarian. It still makes sense for the goblins to just exploit the hole in the PCs' front line and shoot the squishy wizard, disrupting his concentration and ending Cloud of Daggers. Meanwhile the Mind Flayer takes advantage of the fact that the Barbarian has weak Int saves and a weak-ish AC and either Mind Blasts him or disables him with its tentacles.

If he were a GWM/PAM barb this would be more of a credible threat, but a grappler and a concentration spell? Weak threat, IMO, not one that will force the Mind Flayer's hand.
If the barbarian stands there with the goblins they aren't forced to either. Compelled is the better word. I'm compelling them to fall back to defend, which I think is more effective. If the barbarian is not the biggest threat, the enemy is not compelled to exchange blows with them. A single reaction, even with sentinel, doesn't change this much.

With tanking we have to look past mechanics and into RP. There is really nothing mechanically we can do to force the enemy to attack us at all. But most things would not like the idea of a raging barbarian killing everyone behind them. Their own retreat isn't even safe. Their line is effectively broken. They would be very much compelled to fall back and reform the line on the barbarian rather then push up and ignore the raging barbarian behind them.

I'm making myself the biggest threat by being in a very uncomfortable place for the enemy.

And then there is also autonomy. Are the goblins there for the glory of battle? Or are they obliged to be there to defend their leader?

[MaxWilson]

With tanking we have to look past mechanics and into RP. There is really nothing mechanically we can do to force the enemy to attack us at all. But most things would not like the idea of a raging barbarian killing everyone behind them.

Here's where it makes a big difference whether the monsters are being played intelligently or stupidly. I've already acknowledged that DMs ought to play most monsters stupidly, but if a Mind Flayer is in control you can expect the goblins to be controlled intelligently, making this a poor play in this situation.

[Misterwhisper]

If the barbarian stands there with the goblins they aren't forced to either. Compelled is the better word. I'm compelling them to fall back to defend, which I think is more effective. If the barbarian is not the biggest threat, the enemy is not compelled to exchange blows with them. A single reaction, even with sentinel, doesn't change this much.

With tanking we have to look past mechanics and into RP. There is really nothing mechanically we can do to force the enemy to attack us at all. But most things would not like the idea of a raging barbarian killing everyone behind them. Their own retreat isn't even safe. Their line is effectively broken. They would be very much compelled to fall back and reform the line on the barbarian rather then push up and ignore the raging barbarian behind them.

I'm making myself the biggest threat by being in a very uncomfortable place for the enemy.

And then there is also autonomy. Are the goblins there for the glory of battle? Or are they obliged to be there to defend their leader?

If your plan is to run up and grapple and shove the enemy then you are not the biggest threat. You are the least threatening because you just split yourself off from your group, wasted your action to accomplish almost nothing, and now the group has to keep you from dying because your plan was stupid.

[BW022]

Anyone else finding barbarians frustrating or even feeling buyer's remorse?

My recommendation is to be flexible. Carry a shield and then decide whether to use it or not. Say a shield and a quarterstaff and then carry a polearm -- all with polearm mastery. Look at your party, plan, foe, etc. and then choose which might be best. If it is a narrow passage and you have lots of ranged/spellcasters... go shield and even defensive. Or if there isn't another tank, try using shield and moving with your speed. Heck, you even have the option of switching to your polearm mid-combat is that is better.

Maybe save the rages when you don't have the shield. Maybe work out with allies to defensive buff you when you have a shield.

If you find something boring, just mix it up. It isn't necessary one or the other.

[Dalebert]

I'ma post this here since folks are already familiar with my build. I have 40 tier 2 treasure points so I have to spend them on tier 2 or 1 stuff. 20 will probably go to a Helm of Teleportation. Should I get a Ring of Spell Storing with the other 20? Can't cast or concentrate while raging. Can you think of good spells for a barbarian to grab?

[GlenSmash!]

I'ma post this here since folks are already familiar with my build. I have 40 tier 2 treasure points so I have to spend them on tier 2 or 1 stuff. 20 will probably go to a Helm of Teleportation. Should I get a Ring of Spell Storing with the other 20? Can't cast or concentrate while raging. Can you think of good spells for a barbarian to grab?

Armor of Agathys is the first thing that comes to my mind.

[Dalebert]

Armor of Agathys is the first thing that comes to my mind.

Really? First things to my mind: Find Steed, Find Greater Steed, Find Familiar.

[GlenSmash!]

Really? First things to my mind: Find Steed, Find Greater Steed, Find Familiar.

Yup. Armor of Agathys combined with Resistance from Rage is a fantastic way to increase a Barbarians durability and get some extra damage in. Resistance effectively doubles the damage the spell does.

But admittedly I don't play many pet/summons classes.

[Dalebert]

Yup. Armor of Agathys combined with Resistance from Rage is a fantastic way to increase a Barbarians durability and get some extra damage in. Resistance effectively doubles the damage the spell does.


If there's a warlock in the party we could probably say he casts it into the ring in the morning before breakfast (short rest). Not a bad idea.