Dungeon Master Guide - XP per encounter - what's the fine tuning?

[Cikomyr]

So it's the first time I played 5e. I have a solid grasp of the basic rules, and the system is easy to pick up and reference. Overall I am very happy.

I was planning my players' first adventure: going to liberate children captured by goblins. My players are all level 1. So I looked at the table, and see that the threshold of encounter difficulty is 100-200-300-400.

Okay, pretty simple. I look at the experience of 2 goblins (50 XP apiece) and the Boss Goblin (200xp). That makes it 300 XP, x1. 5 for 3 enemies = 450 XP. Deadly encounter.

So.. I planned everything based around these sorts of numbers. Even a 4-gobbo encounter is considered deadly (4x50)x2 = 400

The players just got out of a boss fight where they managed to 1-shot 10 goblins with a trap/burning hands, and then faced 4+Boss an a 1+Warlock, at the same time.

I kind of ramped the number of enemies in the encounter after they crushed anything else, and they still came up ahead again the final wave.

By all intents, I understand they probably had a mix of "playing it smart" and a few good rolls (goblins were charging into a cave and the PCs had readied actions to take out a few). But still, after all the shennaniganery of smart play and when the players were doing pure, savage combat, it was still the 2 bosses + 4 goblins vs them not at 100% (barbarian was out of rage, sorceress was out of spells). And they still won.

So, how reliable is the DMG encounter table difficulty assessor?

[Unoriginal]

So it's the first time I played 5e. I have a solid grasp of the basic rules, and the system is easy to pick up and reference. Overall I am very happy.

I was planning my players' first adventure: going to liberate children captured by goblins. My players are all level 1. So I looked at the table, and see that the threshold of encounter difficulty is 100-200-300-400.

Okay, pretty simple. I look at the experience of 2 goblins (50 XP apiece) and the Boss Goblin (200xp). That makes it 300 XP, x1. 5 for 3 enemies = 450 XP. Deadly encounter.

So.. I planned everything based around these sorts of numbers. Even a 4-gobbo encounter is considered deadly (4x50)x2 = 400

The players just got out of a boss fight where they managed to 1-shot 10 goblins with a trap/burning hands, and then faced 4+Boss an a 1+Warlock, at the same time.

I kind of ramped the number of enemies in the encounter after they crushed anything else, and they still came up ahead again the final wave.

By all intents, I understand they probably had a mix of "playing it smart" and a few good rolls (goblins were charging into a cave and the PCs had readied actions to take out a few). But still, after all the shennaniganery of smart play and when the players were doing pure, savage combat, it was still the 2 bosses + 4 goblins vs them not at 100% (barbarian was out of rage, sorceress was out of spells). And they still won.

So, how reliable is the DMG encounter table difficulty assessor?

It's working as 100% intended, so I'd say it's pretty accurate.

A group of 4 PCs is supposed to be able to face 3 Deadly encounters per day BEFORE running out of ressources.

"Deadly" doesn't mean "risk of TPK", it means "one PC might die if unlucky".

Also, keep in mind the difficulty depends on how many combatants there are on each side. The one with the most combatants has a distinctive advantage. How many PCs did you have?

Did the goblins use their ranged attacks and their capacity to disengage to avoid damage?

In any case, that party got VERY lucky to kill 10 goblins with one Burning Hands. They have good DEX saves and it's not often they would get close enough of each others to catch this many in one AoE.

EDIT:

In fact the AoE of Burning Hands normally only cover 6 cases. How did they catch 10 goblins in it? You're need to cast the spell above them while they're standing in a circle to hit this many.

[Kurt Kurageous]

TBH I gave up on it because I broke down the progression by level according to the DMG.

If the primary way you give out XP is thru defeating monsters, keep going.

I don't because it makes the party focus only on combat.

Instead, I have a "per character per scene" XP based on the adjusted XP/day/level in DMG. I divide that number by 6. Any XP from combat is divided by the number of party members as normal. At 1st level, that's 50xp/player/scene. By 5th, it's 200.

Result: Like DMG indicates, you don't stay level 1 long (one adventuring day at most), and at 4th and above you level every other or every third session DEPENDING ON IF THEY PLAYERS CLEAR 6-8 scenes a session. The alternative is they have to win 6-8 fights every session to meet the adjusted XP/day goal laid out in the dmg.

I don't worry about the XP adjustment factors based on how many foes. I just look at the numbers on each side. As you saw in your gob fights, if the party hits, gob dies. If you fight gobs dumb, the fight is easy.

The goal is to get the party to burn short and long rest resources in each encounter. A deadly encounter means not that someone will die, but the party will burn significant resources (if they still have them) in order to win. And if they don't have those resources, they risk knockdowns (HP=0) or a TPK.

[Malifice]

So it's the first time I played 5e. I have a solid grasp of the basic rules, and the system is easy to pick up and reference. Overall I am very happy.

I was planning my players' first adventure: going to liberate children captured by goblins. My players are all level 1. So I looked at the table, and see that the threshold of encounter difficulty is 100-200-300-400.

Okay, pretty simple. I look at the experience of 2 goblins (50 XP apiece) and the Boss Goblin (200xp). That makes it 300 XP, x1. 5 for 3 enemies = 450 XP. Deadly encounter.

So.. I planned everything based around these sorts of numbers. Even a 4-gobbo encounter is considered deadly (4x50)x2 = 400

The players just got out of a boss fight where they managed to 1-shot 10 goblins with a trap/burning hands, and then faced 4+Boss an a 1+Warlock, at the same time.

I kind of ramped the number of enemies in the encounter after they crushed anything else, and they still came up ahead again the final wave.

By all intents, I understand they probably had a mix of "playing it smart" and a few good rolls (goblins were charging into a cave and the PCs had readied actions to take out a few). But still, after all the shennaniganery of smart play and when the players were doing pure, savage combat, it was still the 2 bosses + 4 goblins vs them not at 100% (barbarian was out of rage, sorceress was out of spells). And they still won.

So, how reliable is the DMG encounter table difficulty assessor?

I have a feeling you're not running combat entirely accurately.

1) You cant ready an action 'outside' of combat. When the Goblins enter the Cave with the PCs 'ready' for them (and the Goblins are unaware of the PCs), you simply commence the encounter (everyone rolls for initiative, however if the Goblins are unaware of the PC's they're surprised and cant act or move on their 1st turn, and cant take reactions till they have had their first turn). If everyone is aware of everyone at the start of the combat, then everyone is already 'ready' for combat (and initiative sorts oout who goes first).

2) Burning hands took out 10 goblins? How is that possible?

3) Gobins get +4 to hit and deal around 5 damage per hit. Most PC AC's at 1st level are in the 14-18 range, meaning a roughly 25-50 percent hit ratio. 4 Goblins attacking a PC with AC 15 generates 2 hits on average, and 11 points of damage on average for those hits (enough to drop anyone who isnt a Fighter or d10/12 HD class).

What are the deets on the Party?

[Unoriginal]

I have to agree it's unlikely, if possible, that lvl 1 PCs can handle the damage outputs of those goblins without getting badly hurt.

So again it might be sheer luck saving them.

[Cikomyr]

It's working as 100% intended, so I'd say it's pretty accurate.

A group of 4 PCs is supposed to be able to face 3 Deadly encounters per day BEFORE running out of ressources.

"Deadly" doesn't mean "risk of TPK", it means "one PC might die if unlucky".

Also, keep in mind the difficulty depends on how many combatants there are on each side. The one with the most combatants has a distinctive advantage. How many PCs did you have?

Did the goblins use their ranged attacks and their capacity to disengage to avoid damage?

In any case, that party got VERY lucky to kill 10 goblins with one Burning Hands. They have good DEX saves and it's not often they would get close enough of each others to catch this many in one AoE.

EDIT:

In fact the AoE of Burning Hands normally only cover 6 cases. How did they catch 10 goblins in it? You're need to cast the spell above them while they're standing in a circle to hit this many.

The whole "burning hands killing 10 goblins" may raise an eyebrow, that's for sure. The players had roused the goblins in the cave, and they rolled a good perception check to figure out which passage they seemed to be coming out of.

The Rogue player poured his ball bearings bag right at the mouth of the tunnel into the cave. I had the goblins (as a group) roll for seeing them; and they failed miserably. So they came full running into the cave, and I had them roll a collective saving throw to avoid falling down.

They rolled a 1

So I understand that standard combat positioning is "1 goblin per square", but a pile of Goblins is a pile of goblins. With more fur, it would be a yif party.

The Sorceress stepped in and fried the pile of Goblins, rolled 11 damage. Goblins, being in a pile, rolled with Disadvantage and failed.

[Rukelnikov]

The whole "burning hands killing 10 goblins" may raise an eyebrow, that's for sure. The players had roused the goblins in the cave, and they rolled a good perception check to figure out which passage they seemed to be coming out of.

The Rogue player poured his ball bearings bag right at the mouth of the tunnel into the cave. I had the goblins (as a group) roll for seeing them; and they failed miserably. So they came full running into the cave, and I had them roll a collective saving throw to avoid falling down.

They rolled a 1

So I understand that standard combat positioning is "1 goblin per square", but a pile of Goblins is a pile of goblins. With more fur, it would be a yif party.

The Sorceress stepped in and fried the pile of Goblins, rolled 11 damage. Goblins, being in a pile, rolled with Disadvantage and failed.

Tbh, that's perfectly run IMO.

And while I don't think the guidelines in the DMG are anything close to real (as in "deadly" budget, generally, has a really low chance of TPK, which is what "deadly" sounds like), this is an edge case, the clumsy goblins all tripped and fell onto one another allowing the Sorceress to fry them all with a single spell, in a couple levels, even in a similarly favorable situation for the PCs, the likelyness of killing/dropping a bunch of "lvl appropiate" enemies with a single spell will decrease.

[Malifice]

The whole "burning hands killing 10 goblins" may raise an eyebrow, that's for sure. The players had roused the goblins in the cave, and they rolled a good perception check to figure out which passage they seemed to be coming out of.

The Rogue player poured his ball bearings bag right at the mouth of the tunnel into the cave. I had the goblins (as a group) roll for seeing them; and they failed miserably. So they came full running into the cave, and I had them roll a collective saving throw to avoid falling down.

They rolled a 1

So I understand that standard combat positioning is "1 goblin per square", but a pile of Goblins is a pile of goblins. With more fur, it would be a yif party.

The Sorceress stepped in and fried the pile of Goblins, rolled 11 damage. Goblins, being in a pile, rolled with Disadvantage and failed.

Fair enough.

I presume this wasnt done with combat actions and such though.

Like; 10 goblins vs 4 1st level PCs in a standard throwdown fight (starting roughly 30' apart, no surprise) is an excellent chance of a TPK.

Goblins roll higher on initiative, and move + stab, with 4 concentrating on a PC, 4 on the next, 1 on each of the others. On average 2 PCs go down, and 1 PC is at half HP.

If the party are fully rested, and have appropriate spells and class features (Sleep spell, raging GWM barbarian) then they're a good chance to win (but a TPK certainly isnt out of the equation).

[Cikomyr]

I have a feeling you're not running combat entirely accurately.

Nice to meet you too


1) You cant ready an action 'outside' of combat. When the Goblins enter the Cave with the PCs 'ready' for them (and the Goblins are unaware of the PCs), you simply commence the encounter (everyone rolls for initiative, however if the Goblins are unaware of the PC's they're surprised and cant act or move on their 1st turn, and cant take reactions till they have had their first turn). If everyone is aware of everyone at the start of the combat, then everyone is already 'ready' for combat (and initiative sorts oout who goes first).

The only moment the players readied actions were after the first wave. The gobbos were first in the initiative order, and I had planned that their reinforcement/new wave would show up at their initiative.

So if player in initiative order #3 killed the last goblin on the stage, knowing that more would show up the next round, I don't see how it's playing the game badly to allow players with a full turn left to ready an action to shoot goblins the moment they show their face.

edit in bold, sorry for the confusion


2) Burning hands took out 10 goblins? How is that possible?

Explained


3) Gobins get +4 to hit and deal around 5 damage per hit. Most PC AC's at 1st level are in the 14-18 range, meaning a roughly 25-50 percent hit ratio. 4 Goblins attacking a PC with AC 15 generates 2 hits on average, and 11 points of damage on average for those hits (enough to drop anyone who isnt a Fighter or d10/12 HD class).

Was there a point to this point?


What are the deets on the Party?

I.. Don't understand what that means

[Unoriginal]

The whole "burning hands killing 10 goblins" may raise an eyebrow, that's for sure. The players had roused the goblins in the cave, and they rolled a good perception check to figure out which passage they seemed to be coming out of.

The Rogue player poured his ball bearings bag right at the mouth of the tunnel into the cave. I had the goblins (as a group) roll for seeing them; and they failed miserably. So they came full running into the cave, and I had them roll a collective saving throw to avoid falling down.

They rolled a 1

So I understand that standard combat positioning is "1 goblin per square", but a pile of Goblins is a pile of goblins. With more fur, it would be a yif party.

The Sorceress stepped in and fried the pile of Goblins, rolled 11 damage. Goblins, being in a pile, rolled with Disadvantage and failed.

Well, then I'll reiterate that the DMG numbers are working as intended.

The PCs had a plan and got really lucky with the dice rolls for the execution of said plan. Those things aren't covered by CR calculations, as it's not their purpose.

You were also generous to make all the goblins fall from the ball bearings, rather than have a few realize their allies were falling and so stopped advancing. But nothing wrong with being generous like that when it makes sense.

For example, I'm absolutely against altering the NPCs' dice results to make the encounter harder/easier, as a DM, but the other day when the PCs hit the boss right in the bag filled with volatile explosive he was carrying using a flaming weapon, I said that the boss exploded entirely despite how he'd technically would have had a few HPs left. It made sense, was impressive, and making the fight continue one more round wouldn't have made it better.

[Cikomyr]

Well, then I'll reiterate that the DMG numbers are working as intended.

The PCs had a plan and got really lucky with the dice rolls for the execution of said plan. Those things aren't covered by CR calculations, as it's not their purpose.

You were also generous to make all the goblins fall from the ball bearings, rather than have a few realize their allies were falling and so stopped advancing. But nothing wrong with being generous like that when it makes sense.

For example, I'm absolutely against altering the NPCs' dice results to make the encounter harder/easier, as a DM, but the other day when the PCs hit the boss right in the bag filled with volatile explosive he was carrying using a flaming weapon, I said that the boss exploded entirely despite how he'd technically would have had a few HPs left. It made sense, was impressive, and making the fight continue one more round wouldn't have made it better.

I think I get you. The DMG is "everyone starts 30 feet apart, in full knowledge. Fight!"?

[Unoriginal]

I think I get you. The DMG is "everyone starts 30 feet apart, in full knowledge. Fight!"?

Not quite, but it's an appropriate metaphor.

[Kurt Kurageous]

Not quite, but it's an appropriate metaphor.

I'm curious how it's not entirely appropriate. Can you elaborate?

The other issue is the OP is seeking a degree of precision that many assume exists pretty much on faith. I'm agnostic on this point because the degree of precision is not there consistently between each CR after CR1. If we have 1/4 and 1/2CR, why not 2 3/4? Because they rounded to 3? If so, we've lost the precision assumed.

It's ridiculous, DMs. Populate your fights as you will using ecology, rough CR estimates based on party size (assumed 4), and party level. Consider proximity and access to rest, and then run the game. Use KFC or another calculator. But stop sweating the difference between 11, 12, or 13 goblins. You are training your players to think they can and should win every fight, and that leads to TPKs. Save your brainpower for something more significant.

[MaxWilson]

I think I get you. The DMG is "everyone starts 30 feet apart, in full knowledge. Fight!"?

Yes. It's a simplistic estimate of difficulty, and it radically underestimates anyone who is using sophisticated tactics (PCs or highly intelligent monsters), but it's useful for novice DMs who want a way to make sure they don't accidentally kill everyone in the party. E.g. a new DM may not realize that 10 CR 1/4 giant rats are in fact a rather tough fight for 4 1st level PCs (if you lock everybody in a 30' room and fight until one side is dead), because they haven't yet internalized what "CR 1/4" really means in terms of HP/attacks/etc. The DMG calls this a Deadly fight, which doesn't mean "don't do this" but does mean "don't do this accidentally."


I'm curious how it's not entirely appropriate. Can you elaborate?

The other issue is the OP is seeking a degree of precision that many assume exists pretty much on faith. I'm agnostic on this point because the degree of precision is not there consistently between each CR after CR1. If we have 1/4 and 1/2CR, why not 2 3/4? Because they rounded to 3? If so, we've lost the precision assumed.

It's ridiculous, DMs. Populate your fights as you will using ecology, rough CR estimates based on party size (assumed 4), and party level. Consider proximity and access to rest, and then run the game. Use KFC or another calculator. But stop sweating the difference between 11, 12, or 13 goblins. You are training your players to think they can and should win every fight, and that leads to TPKs. Save your brainpower for something more significant.

To emphasize this point:

Against a melee-heavy party (not uncommon), there's a huge difference between a CR 8 Tyrannosaurus Rex which bursts out of cover 30' away and savages the nearest PC until it or all of the PCs are dead, and a CR 8 Tyrannosaurus Rex which bursts from cover 30' away, advances 20' to bite one PC (grappling + restraining that PC) and smack another prone with its tail before retreating another 30' to gnaw on the restrained PC in peace. In the latter case other PCs will have to Dash 50' to even get into melee range, and they can't even Attack when they get there because they've spent their action on Dash, and then the T-Rex can just do it again, so each round each PC gets only a single opportunity attack (often at disadvantage for being knocked prone by the T-Rex's tail) instead of a full Attack sequence (Extra Attack, etc.). The T-Rexes both have identical stats, but one of them is twice as difficult as the other, and far more likely to actually kill whatever PC they have in their jaws.

CR is a very, very crude measure of actual challenge, and once you get some experience it's actually better to use your own judgment and eyeball difficulty than rely on CR.

[Unoriginal]

I'm curious how it's not entirely appropriate. Can you elaborate?

CR is technically calculated using numbers only, no battle situations.


If we have 1/4 and 1/2CR, why not 2 3/4?

'cause CR is calculated with "vs a group of 4" in mind. 1/4 is "Medium encounter for 1 lvl 1 PC", 1/2 is "Medium encounter for 2 lvl 1 PCs".


Yes. It's a simplistic estimate of difficulty, and it radically underestimates anyone who is using sophisticated tactics (PCs or highly intelligent monsters),

That is true.



but it's useful for novice DMs who want a way to make sure they don't accidentally kill everyone in the party. E.g. a new DM may not realize that 10 CR 1/4 giant rats are in fact a rather tough fight for 4 1st level PCs (if you lock everybody in a 30' room and fight until one side is dead), because they haven't yet internalized what "CR 1/4" really means in terms of HP/attacks/etc. The DMG calls this a Deadly fight, which doesn't mean "don't do this" but does mean "don't do this accidentally."

CR is useful for an "can the monster lives 3 rounds without killing everyone in the party" estimation, and that's what the designers meant it to be.





CR is a very, very crude measure of actual challenge, and once you get some experience it's actually better to use your own judgment and eyeball difficulty than rely on CR.

Well, CR is NOT a measure of the actual challenge for the encounter, and the game doesn't hide it.

[MaxWilson]

'cause CR is calculated with "vs a group of 4" in mind. 1/4 is "Medium encounter for 1 lvl 1 PC", 1/2 is "Medium encounter for 2 lvl 1 PCs".

And yet according to the DMG, a CR 1/4 Goblin vs. a single level 1 PC is Hard, not Medium, and a CR 1/2 Hobgoblin vs. 2 level 1 PCs is also Hard. But 1 CR Bugbear vs. 4 level 1 PCs is Medium.

[Unoriginal]

And yet according to the DMG, a CR 1/4 Goblin vs. a single level 1 PC is Hard, not Medium, and a CR 1/2 Hobgoblin vs. 2 level 1 PCs is also Hard. But 1 CR Bugbear vs. 4 level 1 PCs is Medium.

Then I might have mixed up the value of Medium and Hard for those CRs, then. I know CR 1 is Medium vs 4 lvl 1 and Easy vs 5 lvl 1.