PF: What classes' archetypes gain access to rogue talents?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I have a nokizaru (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/alternate-classes/ninja/archetypes/rogue-genius-games-ninja-archetypes/nokizaru) ninja (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/alternate-classes/ninja) who can't use sneak attack (and thus can't use his ninja tricks or rogue talents on sneak attack stuff), but I have a few levels set aside explicitly for dipping and a few extra feats for Extra Ninja Trick and (possibly) rogue talents (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/alternate-classes/ninja/ninja-tricks/paizo-ninja-tricks/rogue-talent). Since I can't use nokizaru ninja tricks on sneak attack abilities, what other classes gain access to rogue talents (or ninja tricks) that don't have that restriction?

Don't worry about my access to sneak attack dice. I've got that covered, too.

Obviously rogue, but the ninja class is an alternate rogue class, so I don't think I can take levels in that.

I've got some monk already, but that monk archetype list is crazy-long, so I'm not sure which archetype(s) would work for that.

I don't mind jumping through a couple of class archetypes or using feats for it. Mainly I just want to know how probable it is.

Anyone got any ideas?

I did find something that grants sneak attack-specific rogue talents: Babau Rogue Talent (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/monster-feats/babau-rogue-talent).

Unfortunately, you have to count as a babau demon for it. There's a 3rd party 3e feat that does this (Old Blood), and I think there's a PF trait that allows for this, though I don't remember where to find it.

[FaerieGodfather]

Archeologist Bard, and I think Sandman Bard. White Hair Witch. Greensting Slayer Magus. Cutthroat Soulknife.

[Psyren]

https://aonprd.com/Search.aspx

Uncheck all except "Classes" and search for "rogue talents". You'll see a ton of results, e.g. Opportunist Fighter or White-Haired Witch. A large chunk of those results will be rogue itself, but you can pretty quickly sift those out because they'll all say "Rogue" on them.

Downside is that all the results will only be first-party, unlike the nokizari you're using, but searching through all third-party is a tall order anyway.

[The Shadowmind]

Negotiator Bard, 2nd, 6th, +4s,
Masked Performer Bard, 5th 17ths, limited list.
Archaeologist, Bard 4th/+4.
Opportunist, Fighter, first at the 4th limited list.
Poison Darter, Ranger. 2nd Only that modify sneak attacks or Discoveries that modify poisons.
Red Tongue, Skald, 7th, +5s Rogue Talent.
Dashing Thief, Swashbuckler, 4th/+4.


POW:
Stalker 1.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Thanks for the help, guys.

Now, I have a somewhat related query. Is there any way to use, say, Extra Rogue Talent (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/extra-rogue-talent/) to trick (heh) my way into bypassing restrictions? I'd like access to Advanced Rogue Talents and Master Ninja Tricks that are off the stated lists, and it's bugging me that I can't get those, even at high levels. I have enough ninja levels to get the ones available to nokizaru ninjas, but I do have sneak attack available, despite nokizaru not normally allowing that. (Multiclassing FTW.)

I guess I could use illithid savant or something to get access to advanced stuff for sneak attack trick access, but that seems a bit...excessive.

[FaerieGodfather]

It is definitely allowed by RAW, it is probably not RAI, but I would allow it and argue that other DM's should as well.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

It is definitely allowed by RAW, it is probably not RAI, but I would allow it and argue that other DM's should as well.Well, if anything else, I could use a ninja trick to get a rogue talent to get a ninja trick that affects sneak attack. Or something. Since I'm using a trick to get a rogue talent, and the talent is what lets me affect sneak attacks, that works, right?

...right?

Honestly, I'm not really sure how this works.

[Psyren]

By RAW, if you are that archetype, you can't take any talents or tricks that add or augment sneak attack. It doesn't matter where you're getting them from, they're illegal choices for you.

[FaerieGodfather]

By RAW, if you are that archetype, you can't take any talents or tricks that add or augment sneak attack. It doesn't matter where you're getting them from, they're illegal choices for you.

I doubt this is the case. How would an archetype feature limit the class features of a different class?

[Alexvrahr]

I doubt this is the case. How would an archetype feature limit the class features of a different class?
The nokizaru certainly reads like it wants to do that, but I'd read it as only applying to rogue talents from its own class or from one that stacks with it for rogue talents (e.g. the rose warden prestige class). If your rogue talents come from something that doesn't need to refer to the nokizaru ninja at all (e.g. any other base class/archetype with rogue talents) then I don't think it should limit them this way.

[Psyren]

You could read it either way - the "cannot select" could refer to the character as a whole (who is a nokizaru) or merely to the ones available when you take nokizaru levels specifically. Getting to the intent of that might require messaging whichever third party created it.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Is it just me, or is catfolk slayer (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes/slayer/slayer-talents/paizo-slayer-talents/catfolk-slayer) pointless? I mean, that allows you to select one of those options using your slayer talents, but it doesn't actually give you one of them unless you take it multiple times. Instead, because of the wording, it only allows you to use one of your later talents to choose one.

But catfolk already can! Just take rogue talent as a slayer talent, and you can get one anyway!

The only way that could be useful is if you didn't have to be a catfolk to take it, thereby using one of your slayer talents to qualify you to take those talents, but you have to be catfolk to take the talent, making it useless!

If I facepalm any harder, I'm going to end up giving myself a concussion

[grarrrg]

Is it just me, or is catfolk slayer (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes/slayer/slayer-talents/paizo-slayer-talents/catfolk-slayer) pointless? I mean, that allows you to select one of those options using your slayer talents, but it doesn't actually give you one of them unless you take it multiple times. Instead, because of the wording, it only allows you to use one of your later talents to choose one.

But catfolk already can! Just take rogue talent as a slayer talent, and you can get one anyway!

The Slayer-Talent>Rogue-Talents are from a limited list. You can't choose 'any' Rogue Talent.
"A slayer can select one of the following rogue talents in place of a slayer talent..."

So it has a use however it is actually supposed to work.

[Alexvrahr]

You could read it either way - the "cannot select" could refer to the character as a whole (who is a nokizaru) or merely to the ones available when you take nokizaru levels specifically. Getting to the intent of that might require messaging whichever third party created it.
That person is Owen Stephens, who is a Paizo developer with his own ask me anything thread (https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2tfw0?Ask-Owen-KC-Stephens-Anything) on paizo.com if anyone feels strongly about this.