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Segev
2019-05-10, 11:43 AM
Note: This is a second version of the design. I'll put the first version in a spoilerbox for posterity.

The Hexblade is a weird design, both in fluff and crunch. It is fairly clearly meant to complement the Pact of the Blade, as it is a bit clumsy when combined with any of the others. And while it can be made to work, the notion of "sentient weapons" as a Warlock Patron is a bit weird in and of itself. It is likely that its clear complementary status is meant to be a kind of salvation for the Pact of the Blade not working quite right due to pulling the Warlock towards melee when he clearly isn't designed for it.

In addition, a couple of the abilities feel more like "crap, Patrons need something at this level; what do we give this one?" than solid thematic links.

Thus, I have decided to try my hand at remodeling things to make additions to the Warlock class that allow you to choose a Patron other than a sentient weapon and still be able to fully use PAct of the Blade, by dissecting Hexblade and recreating its key powers in other ways.

Please let me know what you think. I've tried to consider multiclassing shenanigans as well as balance for the straight Warlock. Notably, like the Hexblade Patron, while each of these work well with a Pact of the Blade, it's not required for any of them.
First, add shillelagh (http://5e.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shillelagh.htm) to the Warlock spell list.

I'd considered other options, from making a new cantrip to trying a Warlock 1st level spell, but shillelagh does everything the first-level Warlock needs it to in order to let him build a concentrated build towards Pact of the Blade the way Hexblade did by giving him Cha to hit and damage on non-two-handed weapons. Sure, he's stuck with a club or quarterstaff at level 1, but it's doing damage like the best one-handed weapon out there.

New Invocation: Eldritch Armaments

You learn the the shillelagh cantrip. If you already know it, you may learn another Cantrip on the Warlock spell list. You may target any weapon that lacks the two-handed property with it, and may take an additional bonus action on any round in which you cast Shillelagh.

You also gain proficiency with medium armor, shields, and martial weapons.

This upgrades shillelagh the way a number of Invocations upgrade eldritch blast, but also patches two flaws with relying on shillelagh over the original Hexblade's "Hex Warrior:" 1) it basically makes casting it a free action, and 2) it actually removes the cost of spending a precious cantrip-known slot on the specialized spell. This is actually a patch for the fact that Invocations can't be taken at level 1, and I wanted to enable the cha-to-melee capability from level 1. If we don't care about level 1, we can remove all reference to shillelagh and just make this invocation give Cha-to-non-two-handed-melee straightforwardly.

New spell for the Warlock list:
Eldritch Curse
(Level 1 Necromancy)
Components: V
Casting Time: 1 bonus action
Target: One creature you can see within 30 feet
Duration: 1 minute

You pronounce a baleful curse upon the target. Until the curse ends, you gain one of the following benefits, chosen when you cast the spell:

* You gain a bonus to damage rolls against the cursed target. This bonus equals your proficiency bonus.
* Any attack roll you make against the cursed target is a critical hit on a roll of 19 or 20 on the d20.
* If the cursed target dies, you regain hit points equal to your warlock level + your Charisma modifier (minimum 1).

You may have only one Eldritch Curse at a time. If you cast it on a second target while another is still cursed, the spell ends for the first target.

If you cast this spell from a 2nd level slot or higher, you may choose an additional option from the above list for each slot above 1st. You may not take any option more than once.

This is "Hexblade's Curse" remade as a level 1 spell for the Warlock list. Because it's a spell choice and not a class feature, I both wanted to proof it against Magic Initiate and other forms of spell-poaching by giving it a slot-dependent number of bonuses, and I also realized I didn't need to make it once per short rest and later upgrade it to unlimited because Warlocks have such limited spells per short rest as-is, but by level 14 aren't feeling the pinch so badly.


The remaining elements - Hex Armor, the "make a specter out of a dead guy" thing, and the Shadow Hound (the latter two of which seem to have one replacing the other in various versions) - can be made into Invocations or Spells as well. Hex Armor would be an Invocation that requires knowing eldritch curse, and adds that 50% miss chance feature to the spell as a 4th option. I think the other two would jsut be straightforward Invocations with level requirements.

Additional Invocations (added after development later in this thread)

Rebuking Curse
Must be at least level 9 to take this invocation, and must know eldritch curse
When you cast eldritch curse, you may select from the following additional options to apply to the target when you cast the spell:
When the target hits you with an attack, roll 1d6. On a 4+, the attack misses instead.
When the target takes necrotic damage from any source, you heal the lower of that amount or the target's hit dice in hit point damage.
When the target makes an attack against you, you may make a melee or ranged weapon attack against the target as a reaction.

Dread Curse
Must be at least level 15 to take this invocation, and must know eldritch curse
When you cast eldritch curse, you may select from the following additional options to apply to the target when you cast the spell:
The target is Charmed and Frightened by you, and may make a Charisma save each round on his turn to end this effect.
You may Dash as a bonus action so long as your movement places you closer to the target than you started, or adjacent to him. You gain the movement capabilities of the gasseous form spell while moving, but retain your normal speed. To observers, you appear to move between blinks and when they're not looking.
If you have hit the target with a ranged attack since his last turn, he must make a Wisdom saving throw to be able to take any voluntary movement actions which end with him further away from you than he began his turn. This includes teleportation and other magical effects. Creatures immune to being Charmed are immune to this effect.

Biting the bullet, the first changes should be to add a new Cantrip to the Warlock spell list, and add an existing 1st level spell.

Hexblade
Transmutation cantrip
Casting Time: 1 bonus action
Range: Touch
Components: V, S, M (a simple melee weapon)
Duration: 1 minute
The simple melee weapon you are holding is imbued with your Patron's power. For the duration, you can use your spellcasting ability instead of Strength for the attack and damage rolls of attacks using that weapon. The weapon also becomes magical, if it isn’t already. The spell ends if you cast it again or if the weapon is not in your hand at the end of your turn. If you have Pact of the Blade, you can cast this spell on your Pact Weapon as part of making an attack with it, and your Pact Weapon is a valid target for this spell no matter its form.

Hexblade, here, gives our gishlock his SAD from level 1, just like the Hexblade Patron did with its subclass features. It limits it to melee weapons, but most gishlocks are still using eldritch blast to do their ranged attacks, anyway. Still, keeps them from entirely encroaching on fighter territory.

Add mage armor to the Warlock spell list.

Then, add this Invocation (which even gets to poach the name of the one that used to grant mage armor at will), which they can take as early as level 2, which would also let them trade out mage armor for a different spell using the normal rules for doing so on level-up. This enables a smooth progression into more melee-competence as the Warlock levels.

Armor of Shadows
You can spend a short rest attuning a suit of armor or a shield, even if it is non-magical or otherwise would not require attunement. It becomes suffused with your Patron's power, and takes on minor cosmetic accents of your choosing appropriate to your Patron as long as you remain attuned. Other creatures which attempt to wear or otherwise use it are automatically nonproficient, as it fights them every step of the way, unless they share your Patron. You are proficient with itr as long as you remain attuned to it.

This is expensive in terms of attunement slots, but opens up any armor and shield you wish to carry. Note that it doesn't limit you to one at a time; as long as you have attunement slots available, this is an option. Further, we can add more invocations to spice it up.

Call to Arms
Must know Armor of Shadows
Items attuned through Armor of Shadows now know their master's voice. As an action on your turn, you may speak a verbal command (or anything else sufficiently loud; some warlocks use a snap of their fingers) you set when you attuned the armor and/or shield you wish to call. This can be the same command for both a suit of armor and a shield. When you do, they fly from up to 30 feet away from you and magically don themselves appropriately on your person as part of the activating action. They morph and reshape, or even go briefly intangible if needs be to do it. The command must be audible where the armor is, such that a creature with the Warlock's audial acuity could detect it, for this to work.

Making the command word "Blabbering Blatherskite" is not officially condoned, but also not officially condemned.

The addition of mage armor to their spell list is a buff from requiring them to pick up an Invocation, and it's really a spell pick paying for 13+dex AC, because a Warlock can cast it in the morning and then short rest and have all his spell slots and 7 more hours of the spell effect. But, it's still a major cost, especially if you want the full "hexblade experience" from level one, because you'll be spending another spell known on...

Eldritch Curse
Level 1 Necromancy
Components: V
Casting Time: 1 bonus action
Target: One creature you can see within 30 feet
Duration: 1 minute
You pronounce a baleful curse upon the target. Until the curse ends, you gain one of the following benefits, chosen when you cast the spell:
You gain a bonus to damage rolls against the cursed target. This bonus equals your proficiency bonus.
Any attack roll you make against the cursed target is a critical hit on a roll of 19 or 20 on the d20.
If the cursed target dies, you regain hit points equal to your warlock level + your Charisma modifier (minimum 1).
You may have only one Eldritch Curse at a time. If you cast it on a second target while another is still cursed, the spell ends for the first target.
If you cast this spell from a 2nd level slot or higher, you may choose an additional option from the above list for each slot above 1st. You may not take any option more than once.

This is "Hexblade's Curse" remade as a level 1 spell for the Warlock list. Because it's a spell choice and not a class feature, I both wanted to proof it against Magic Initiate and other forms of spell-poaching by giving it a slot-dependent number of bonuses, and I also realized I didn't need to make it once per short rest and later upgrade it to unlimited because Warlocks have such limited spells per short rest as-is, but by level 14 aren't feeling the pinch so badly.

The remaining elements can be made into Invocations. For instance, the Hex Armor and some other perks can even just become more options on eldritch curse.

Rebuking Curse
Must be at least level 9 to take this invocation, and must know eldritch curse
When you cast eldritch curse, you may select from the following additional options to apply to the target when you cast the spell:
When the target hits you with an attack, roll 1d6. On a 4+, the attack misses instead.
When the target takes necrotic damage from any source, you heal the lower of that amount or the target's hit dice in hit point damage.
When the target makes an attack against you, you may make a melee or ranged weapon attack against the target as a reaction.

Dread Curse
Must be at least level 15 to take this invocation, and must know eldritch curse
When you cast eldritch curse, you may select from the following additional options to apply to the target when you cast the spell:
The target is Charmed and Frightened by you, and may make a Charisma save each round on his turn to end this effect.
You may Dash as a bonus action so long as your movement places you closer to the target than you started, or adjacent to him. You gain the movement capabilities of the gasseous form spell while moving, but retain your normal speed. To observers, you appear to move between blinks and when they're not looking.
If you have hit the target with a ranged attack since his last turn, he must make a Wisdom saving throw to be able to take any voluntary movement actions which end with him further away from you than he began his turn. This includes teleportation and other magical effects. Creatures immune to being Charmed are immune to this effect.

I haven't written it up, but even the "make a specter out of a guy you killed" ability could be an Invocation. I don't even see a reason to link that to Pact of the Blade exclusively; seems pretty Warlock-y overall. Just not very Hexblade-the-patron-y, and more like something shoved into it because it needed a 6th level feature and they were spitballing.

Cynthaer
2019-05-10, 04:35 PM
I think this is a generally good idea, and well-thought-out. In particular, I think your analysis of the Hexblade's design purpose is spot-on:


It is fairly clearly meant to complement the Pact of the Blade, as it is a bit clumsy when combined with any of the others. And while it can be made to work, the notion of "sentient weapons" as a Warlock Patron is a bit weird in and of itself. It is likely that its clear complementary status is meant to be a kind of salvation for the Pact of the Blade not working quite right due to pulling the Warlock towards melee when he clearly isn't designed for it.

In addition, a couple of the abilities feel more like "crap, Patrons need something at this level; what do we give this one?" than solid thematic links.

I also agree that something needs to be done to bridge the gap of "I'm a caster for the first two levels and then suddenly I'm in melee at level 3". You use Shillelagh, but what if we just imported a tiny bit of Pact of the Blade directly into the base class at level 1? Make some minor use of weapons into A Warlock Thing?

I'm thinking either (A) let all Warlocks use Cha with weapons they're proficient with, (B) let them use it with specific weapons based on the Patron. Since they start with simple weapon proficiency, option (A) is basically what you're getting at with Shillelagh, except this allows ranged weapon too. Option (B) would be a little more thematic, and would let you emphasize the flavor of certain classes of patrons (as well as their martial capabilities).

Example:
- Fiendish Patron: Mace, spear, greatclub
- Fey Patron: Shortbow, sickle, quarterstaff
- Great Old One: Dagger

Notably, none of these match Agonizing Blast's damage output, so Warlocks who don't go Pact of the Blade aren't necessarily more powerful with this addition. The major consequence is that Pact of the Blade Warlocks can start using weapons from level 1, but the actual Pact at level 3 still has an impact by opening up all martial weapons.

Speaking of which, we might as well roll the martial weapon proficiency into Pact of the Blade to close the "not proficient with this magic weapon" loophole.

That just leaves the question of whether we should put medium armor and shield proficiency into the Eldritch Armaments invocation tax, or just add those to Pact of the Blade for free. Personally, I think medium armor and shield proficiency is more than worth an invocation slot, and I'd actually add a Pact of the Blade requirement to it. Otherwise there's little incentive for even caster Warlocks not to armor up, and the whole point is to make Pact of the Blade work as a weird "turn this caster into a fighter" class path.

(Your implementation of Hexblade's Curse looks good, I have nothing to add on that one.)

Thoughts?

Great Dragon
2019-05-10, 07:12 PM
For Eldritch Curse.
The Hexblade's ability is an Action to use, and thus allows the Warlock to also cast Hex (which is a Bonus Action) the same round.

Did you intend for this to not allow Hex, and instead only stack with another Action Cantrip (Eldritch Blast, etc) in the same round?

Trustypeaches
2019-05-10, 07:47 PM
For Eldritch Curse.
The Hexblade's ability is an Action to use, and thus allows the Warlock to also cast Hex (which is a Bonus Action) the same round.
The Hexblade's Curse is a bonus action.

Great Dragon
2019-05-11, 05:17 AM
The Hexblade's Curse is a bonus action.

Shows what I get when AFB. Thanks.

Q: With what you have, getting access to all three options would be available at 5th level; Would (A) "choose one of the following with a first level slot; a second with a third level slot; and gain access to all three options with a fifth level slot" be too much?

This was what I was thinking of doing with the regular Hexblade Class.

I still see a lot of people choosing “Critical on 19-20” at 1st level either way.

Or (B) 1st slot ( lv 1), 2nd slot (lv 3), 3rd slot (lv 5), and Hex Armor with 5th slot (lv 9)? This does make the Hex Armor available one level sooner than the “regular” Class, but shouldn't be too big a deal. Especially since the spell only allows one option at a time. So, no Armor + Critical.

I could see Accursed Specter being an Invocation available after 6th level.

Would really cut down on dipping, just for Hexblade's Curse, since it would take until level 9 to unlock all options?

Would you have Master of Hexes (14th level) also being an Invocation?
*****
I like the Martial Weapons being linked to a Patron. Would make for more interesting chosen Weapon. IiRC, Blade Pact give you proficiency with any Weapon you are bonded with.

As for the Medium Armor and Shields, the Invocation with Blade being required should work.

Segev
2019-05-11, 04:04 PM
Part of the reason for the design as is is to do as little “change the Warlock” as possible. That said, I kind-of had to give in to put shillelagh on their list, or force them to take human for a feat at first level.

For a true tinkering, putting martial weapon proficiencies with the various patrons is interesting. Could still have Pact of the Blade give all martials.

Having Eldritch Curse stop you from Hexing in the same round is not intentional, but I can’t think of a good way around it. I think making warlocks wait for 9th level for all three effects is a bit much. Dipping for 5 levels isn’t really a “dip” anymore, anyway, and is more a genuine investment.

Master of Hexes is almost redundant with making it a spell; the Warlock can just cast it again under most circumstances. I suppose an invocation that made it at will win a level requirement of 14 could work.

Great Dragon
2019-05-11, 07:22 PM
@Segev:

I'm wondering if giving full access to Martial Weapons might be a bit much?

Since Blade Pact gives proficiency with the Bonded Weapon (regardless of category), and the Summoned Blade does Force damage instead of P/S/B (unless they bond with a magical weapon): giving "Hexblades" full access to the entire list of Martial Weapons would make this a more powerful version of the Eldritch Knight?
Since all that would be lacking is Heavy Armor.

Especially if combined with Thirsting Blade and/or Eldritch Smite Invocations.
*****
Note that option (B) gave Hex Armor at 9th in the spell, where the “original” Hexblade gave the Armor at 10th.

So, since “Dipping” is 1-3 levels; with (B) version that would still unlock Blade Pact and two of the four Curse options.
****
How about “The Master of Hexes Invocation (requirement 14th level and Hexblade's Curse spell) allows the spell to be transferred to another target as a Reaction”?

Segev
2019-05-13, 09:53 AM
Wait, since when did the Pact of the Blade weapon do force damage? I don't recall reading that, and that seems like something that more of a big deal would be made of in general.

With the design I have in the OP right now, the only reason for full martial proficiency would be the same as why Hexblade Patron does under its design: patching levels 1 and 2 so you can be a gish from the get-go. That said, shillelagh on its own patches that, especially when made a "free bonus" action to cast by the invocation.

The way you'd gate Hex Armor wouldn't be by adding it to the spell directly and making it so that you get a slower progression of options; it'd be by putting it as an Invocation that adds new options to the spell, and gating the Invocation behind a minimum Warlock level. Either 9th or 10th; 10th if you want to force them to use an option to trade out invocations to get it as early as possible, and 9th if you are willing to give it a level early when it costs an invocation slot.

This also keeps Hex Armor as a Warlock-only feature, even if somebody grabs eldritch curse via a feat or other shenanigan. A Lore Bard who uses advanced learning to pick it up still maxes out benefit at a level 3 slot, and can't get Hex Armor from it.

In fact, I tend to think some Invocations of this sort are quite weak, so I might add three options with it. (This has the sneaky side effect of making it so that a Warlock casting out of a 5th level slot has 6 options to choose from and only 5 he may choose, making it a meaningful choice when he casts eldritch cuse.)

Rebuking Curse
Must be at least level 9 to take this invocation, and must know eldritch curse
When you cast eldritch curse, you may select from the following additional options to apply to the target when you cast the spell:
When the target hits you with an attack, roll 1d6. On a 4+, the attack misses instead.
When the target takes necrotic damage from any source, you heal the lower of that amount or the target's hit dice in hit point damage.
When the target makes an attack against you, you may make a melee or ranged weapon attack against the target as a reaction.

Dread Curse
Must be at least level 15 to take this invocation, and must know eldritch curse
When you cast eldritch curse, you may select from the following additional options to apply to the target when you cast the spell:
The target is Charmed and Frightened by you, and may make a Charisma save each round on his turn to end this effect.
You may Dash as a bonus action so long as your movement places you closer to the target than you started, or adjacent to him. You gain the movement capabilities of the gasseous form spell while moving, but retain your normal speed. To observers, you appear to move between blinks and when they're not looking.
If you have hit the target with a ranged attack since his last turn, he must make a Wisdom saving throw to be able to take any voluntary movement actions which end with him further away from you than he began his turn. This includes teleportation and other magical effects. Creatures immune to being Charmed are immune to this effect.

Great Dragon
2019-05-17, 05:31 PM
Edit:

Rebuking Curse
Must be at least level 9 to take this invocation.
When you cast Eldritch Curse, you may select from the following additional options to apply to the target:
When the target hits you with an attack, roll 1d6. On a 4+, the attack misses instead.
This seems a bit much.

I could see "Use a Reaction to allow the Warlock a 1d20 roll with no modifiers. If your roll meets or exceeds the attacker's total, they miss."

This way, they couldn't easily negate a Natural 20.

@Segev
Humm. Sorry.

Once again, not having my Books on hand when posting backfires on me!
- Honestly, I don't recall where I read the Force Damage.

As far as Hex Armor and the Two new Curse Invocations, I think that would work.
I might even be able to convince a Player to try this out in one of my games.....

Personally, I think that giving all Martial Weapons is really stepping a bit over the Gish. Makes this class a better choice then Eldritch Knight, in a lot of ways.
Or being Paladin-lite with Thirsting Blade and Eldritch Smite combo.

Especially since the Bladelock is proficient in their Bonded Weapon, and can change it each time it is Summoned. (PHB - pg 107)
*Poof* 1d10 Blunt! (Two handed Warhammer)
*Poof* 1d12 Slashing! (Greataxe)

Edit
Improved Pact Weapon Invocation gives:
*Poof* 600' 1d8 Piercing! (Longbow)

Really, bonding with a Magical Weapon actually limits this Ability. (I mean a +3 Legendary Weapon with extra powers might be worth it, but that's all)


*****
I still like Cynthaer's suggestion for Weapons by Patron at 1st level.

And I'd rather give a Shield over Medium Armor at 1st level. Giving both really outshines the other types of Warlock.

With your option: I see a lot of "Hexblade" (GoO for mind powers; Fiend for Fire; Archfey for Charm; Celestial for some healing; and Undying for Necromancer-lite) Warlocks going Variant Human with PAM - or either Dwarf or Elf with racial weapons - and just rocking over the majority of other Gish options.

Would most likely not even need to Multiclass.


*****
Would having a few more options for the (original) Hexblade's Patron be helpful?

I've got one done, and am working on a second.

Keep the Crunch as done here, but adding Goal/Fluff options?


At 1st level gain the use of shields, and pick one of the Hexblade's Curse effects.
Gain a second choice at 3rd level.
Gain the last effect at 5th level.

Trade Shield spell for Ice Knife.

At 3rd level, pick a Pact: Chain, Blade, or Tome.

All other Abilities unchanged.

(Modified) Invocations

Rebuking Curse
Must be at least level 9 to take this invocation.
When you use Hexblade's Curse, you may select from the following additional options to apply to the target:

When the target hits you with an attack, as a Reaction, roll 1d20 with no modifiers. If you meet the attack's total, they miss.

When the target takes necrotic damage from any source, you heal half of that amount.

When the target makes an attack against you, you may make a melee or ranged weapon attack against the target as a reaction.

Dread Curse
Must be at least level 15 to take this invocation.

When you use Hexblade's Curse, you may select from the following additional options to apply to the target:

The target is either Charmed and Frightened by you, and may make a Charisma save each round on their turn to end this effect.

You may Dash as a bonus action so long as your movement places you closer to the target than you started, or adjacent to him. You gain the movement capabilities of the Gaseous Form spell while moving, but retain your normal speed. To observers, you appear to move between blinks and when they're not looking.

If you have hit the target with a ranged attack since their last turn, they must make a Wisdom saving throw to be able to take any voluntary movement actions which end with them further away from you than they began their turn. This includes teleportation and other magical effects. Creatures immune to being Charmed are immune to this effect.

I'll do some Playtesting, and post the results.

Segev
2019-05-20, 11:01 AM
This seems a bit much.

I could see "Use a Reaction to allow the Warlock a 1d20 roll with no modifiers. If your roll meets or exceeds the attacker's total, they miss."

This way, they couldn't easily negate a Natural 20.Valid point; my only counterpoint is that the "1d6, misses on a 4+" is straight out of the Hexblade patron power. Maybe downgrading it in moving it to an Invocation (albeit one that costs a spell slot to use) is appropriate. On the other hand, "set your last-ditch AC to the result of an unmodified d20 roll" seems pretty weak. They rolled a d20 with bonuses, and already overcame your likely mid-teens AC. You've got less than the chances of rolling over your own AC on that d20 to negate the hit at this point. If you made it, insted, "roll an unmodified d20, and compare it to the raw result of their attack roll before bonuses. If you roll equal or higher, they miss," then it would have an overall 50% miss chance effect, but would make higher d20 rolls on their part less likely to be the ones negated, which is what you're looking for. If you want nat 20s to never be negated, then make it that the warlock has to roll higher.


@Segev
Humm. Sorry.

Once again, not having my Books on hand when posting backfires on me!
- Honestly, I don't recall where I read the Force Damage.Mistakes happen. For the longest time, I thought projected image in 5e retained the ability to cast spells through it.


As far as Hex Armor and the Two new Curse Invocations, I think that would work.
I might even be able to convince a Player to try this out in one of my games.....Cool! Please do let me know how it works. I don't have any Warlocks in my own home game, so I don't have anybody to talk into trying these out. Also, the party's only level 2, anyway.


Personally, I think that giving all Martial Weapons is really stepping a bit over the Gish. Makes this class a better choice then Eldritch Knight, in a lot of ways.
Or being Paladin-lite with Thirsting Blade and Eldritch Smite combo.

Especially since the Bladelock is proficient in their Bonded Weapon, and can change it each time it is Summoned. (PHB - pg 107)
*Poof* 1d10 Blunt! (Two handed Warhammer)
*Poof* 1d12 Slashing! (Greataxe)
*Poof* 600' 1d8 Piercing! (Longbow)

Really, bonding with a Magical Weapon actually limits this Ability. (I mean a +3 Legendary Weapon with extra powers might be worth it, but that's all)To be fair, the Hexblade patron already does all of that. By design, as I think the Pact of the Blade Warlock is meant to be a solid gish. Eldritch Knight may need its own beefing up, or may not be intended to be quite as heavy a gish - more a fighter with some light gishability.



I still like Cynthaer's suggestion for Weapons by Patron at 1st level.It's an idea, but it's a far broader re-design than I was aiming for with my efforts, which is why I haven't really tried it.


And I'd rather give a Shield over Medium Armor at 1st level. Giving both really outshines the other types of Warlock.Yes and no; first off, it's being a Hexblade Patron that gives you that, and I'm removing that option with my efforts here. Secondly, it's only really cool if you're planning to gish; if you're planning to be a more spellcasty warlock, there's better you can do. Though it does have more solid bones than the once-per-short-rest benefits most of the others get. GoO's telepathy remains my favorite, in any event.


With your option: I see a lot of "Hexblade" (GoO for mind powers; Fiend for Fire; Archfey for Charm; Celestial for some healing; and Undying for Necromancer-lite) Warlocks going Variant Human with PAM - or either Dwarf or Elf with racial weapons - and just rocking over the majority of other Gish options.With the changes, I don't see how adding the bonus weapon proficiencies helps. The primary thing my changes add is the ability to gish with the club that warlocks start proficient with, if they choose shillelagh as one of their cantrips, and/or pick up Eldritch Armaments as an Invocation. Proficiency with shields and armor is good, but at the cost of an invocation still doesn't resonate strongly with Elf or Dwarf racial weapon proficiencies.


Would most likely not even need to Multiclass.I think that was an intent behind the Hexblade Patron, and remains an intent here. Having to multiclass to make Pact of the Blade not require a massive style-shift from the first two levels to the third is a bug they were trying to patch. I'm just trying to patch it a little better.



Would having a few more options for the (original) Hexblade's Patron be helpful?

I've got one done, and am working on a second.

Keep the Crunch as done here, but adding Goal/Fluff options?


At 1st level gain the use of shields, and pick one of the Hexblade's Curse effects.
Gain a second choice at 3rd level.
Gain the last effect at 5th level.

Trade Shield spell for Ice Knife.

At 3rd level, pick a Pact: Chain, Blade, or Tome.

All other Abilities unchanged.

(Modified) Invocations

Rebuking Curse
Must be at least level 9 to take this invocation.
When you use Hexblade's Curse, you may select from the following additional options to apply to the target:

When the target hits you with an attack, as a Reaction, roll 1d20 with no modifiers. If you meet the attack's total, they miss.

When the target takes necrotic damage from any source, you heal half of that amount.

When the target makes an attack against you, you may make a melee or ranged weapon attack against the target as a reaction.

Dread Curse
Must be at least level 15 to take this invocation.

When you use Hexblade's Curse, you may select from the following additional options to apply to the target:

The target is either Charmed and Frightened by you, and may make a Charisma save each round on their turn to end this effect.

You may Dash as a bonus action so long as your movement places you closer to the target than you started, or adjacent to him. You gain the movement capabilities of the Gaseous Form spell while moving, but retain your normal speed. To observers, you appear to move between blinks and when they're not looking.

If you have hit the target with a ranged attack since their last turn, they must make a Wisdom saving throw to be able to take any voluntary movement actions which end with them further away from you than they began their turn. This includes teleportation and other magical effects. Creatures immune to being Charmed are immune to this effect.

I'll do some Playtesting, and post the results.

I'll keep an eye on the thread for your analysis of that playtesting.

I don't think having more options for hexblade patrons would help; it's still "yeah, um, this sentient weapon is your patron, but, erm, you're not wielding him or anything; yeah, he's just that powerful, able to bless you with stuff from a distance."

If "Hexblade Patron" was going to be at thing, Pact of the Blade would probably need to be excised and wholly replaced with it, with the Patron being the bonded weapon and growing in power with the Warlock with whom it's pacted. Which would likely require 1-2 more new Pacts to be available, especially since Chain and especially Tome are weird with a gishlock.

I mean, imagine even with the current rules: What does a Hexblade-Patron Tomelock really play like? What does a Hexblade-patron Chainlock play like?

...yeesh, Hexblade Patron makes warlock a prime choice for easy multiclassing to get armor proficiencies you might not get from multiclassing into "more appropriate" classes. I'd need to check Fighter and Ranger and Paladin for what they grant in proficiencies.

Great Dragon
2019-05-20, 11:50 PM
@Segev: Humm.

I like the “exceed base roll” to negate a hit.

Maybe have that Invocation as a Reaction costing a Spell Slot and working like Adamantine?
Negates the Double Damage portion of a Critical?
Duration is until the end of the round.
(Extending it to the start of the Hexblade's next turn, might be a bit much)
"Adamant Defense"? Requires being a Hexblade.


******
Like stated above, the only difference between (regular) Hexblade and Eldritch Knight (other than base Fighter abilities - and not counting spell access) is Heavy Armor access.

And with Warlock's Slots renewing on a Short Rest, the Hexblade is quickly overshadowing the EK.

Multiclassing into both Fighter and Paladin only gives Medium Armor, shields, with simple and martial weapons. Rangers gets those and also gets +1 skill from their list. But then, Rangers only ever get Medium Armor, shields, and all weapons.

Which is why most people will take 2 Fighter, and 1 Paladin (or - rarely - 3 Ranger) at Character Creation, then go at least 3 levels Warlock (Hexblade mostly for flavor, see below), and then take more levels in the chosen Class: Fighter 2 for Second Wind, Fighter 5 for Extra Attack; Paladin 2 for Smite, Paladin 5 for Extra Attack;

(except for Saves and Skills, taking Ranger has the same effect, regardless of which was taken first - usually Hunter, although Gloomestalker is gaining popularity).

Someone that went Fighter (Paladin) / Hexblade earned Heavy Armor access, and most likely took Hexblade for the Hexblade's Curse more than anything else.


*****
My real complaint with giving (base) Hexblade medium armor is that it allows for Very High AC at Low Levels.

Which means that the PCs with High AC are able to take on CRs around Three times their level! (Like a Level One PC with AC 18-19 can easily take on most CR 3 Monsters.)


I just got done running "CR 1" Hobgoblins against a Level Two party. With the Hobgoblins having AC 18, they were a very hard fight for the Party!

I felt that base (CR 1) Hobgoblins should have AC 14, Veteran Hobgoblins AC 16 (CR 3), and Captain Hobgoblins AC 18. (CR 5)

Especially since monsters aren't really supposed to easily match PCs: just have different or interesting Abilities. And, I felt that not every Hobgoblin would have access to Chain Mail.

Now, I'm an experienced enough DM that I can adapt, but I also wanted to let New DMs know about this problem, and suggest possible ways to how it can be avoided.

Now, Armor Cost keeps all the classes to Scale Mail (50 gp. AC 14 +2 Dex +2 shield = 18) at best, until around 3rd level.

Studded Leather is 45 gold. (AC 12 +2 shield + [5] Dex = 19 max).

At 750 gp for Half-Plate (AC 15 + 2 Dex and +2 shield = 19), even the Fighter and Paladin are not really scary with Splint Mail (AC 17 +2 shield = 19) for 200 gp.

Plate (AC 18 +2 shield = 20) costing 1,500 gp means that this is normally not available until about 5th level.

Since I have Magical Armor in my games, AC can get close to 30 by 17th level!!

And the poor Mage is SOL, with Mage Armor (AC 13 + Dex) and an extra +5 from Shield a few times a day. 23 max: Forever.
(I have my own solution for this)


*****
Now, as always, the biggest part is optimization at Character Creation.

Anyone with 20 Dex (Halflings, Elves, and Goblins) doesn't need Heavy Armor, since they can get an AC 19 with just Studded Leather and shield. (55 gp) From 1st level!

But, starting out with access to Medium Armor means that even with a 14 Dex, they can still rock out with that same AC 19 as soon as they get 760 gp. (About 3rd level?)

True, Heavy Armor plus shield can get AC 20:
But, it's not like there's an Assembly Line Factory cranking Plate Armor out!


******
Shillalah being available to allow for better damage isn't really a problem. Would make even "no Martial Weapons" Hexblades suck less.

Since in my games, a shield and the Shield spell don't add together, I've taken the Shield spell off the Hexblade's expanded spell list, and put Catapult Ice Knife instead.


******
IDK. Perhaps having where there is more than one Being making Hexblade weapons? While keeping the weapon itself as the Patron as the better way to go, but adding where each weapon has individual goals and motivations - loosely based on who made it? Hexblade-crafter Beings could at least give an In World explanation on where these Weapons come from.

I have the following Goals:

(Good) "Seek out Good in all Beings, even Undead. Destroy true Fiends and Undead that seek to harm the innocent."

(Evil) "Command the Undead. Enslave the Living." (I'm thinking about changing this to Undying)


******
I also agree that both Hex-tomes and Hex-chains are difficult to figure out. But short of declaring Hexblade a Blade Pact only and making new Pacts for “Shadow” Tome and Chain Warlocks, (which I'd rather not do) I'm not sure what to do.

With access to a Martial Weapon from 1st level, taking Blade Pact also means that you can't lose your Bonded Weapon. Perhaps allowing the now Bonded Hexblade Weapon to still change weapon (and damage) type, but always doing the damage of the original Weapon?

I suppose that the Hex-chains could be considered good for recon.
Maybe have an Invocation to allow the Familiar to channel all Attack-based spells, including ranged? "Enspell Familiar"?
Requires Voice of the Chain Master.

Hex-Tomes are more caster-based; but still able to engage more in (melee) combat than any other Tomelock.
*******
I do agree that all Blade Pacts are intended to be Gish-ish.

Segev
2019-05-21, 10:06 AM
I like the “exceed base roll” to negate a hit.

Maybe have that Invocation as a Reaction costing a Spell Slot and working like Adamantine?
Negates the Double Damage portion of a Critical?
Duration is until the end of the round.
(Extending it to the start of the Hexblade's next turn, might be a bit much)
"Adamant Defense"? Requires being a Hexblade.As written, I have it cost no action, but it does cost you casting a specific spell and making that as one of your selections for said spell's 3 options you get. I also like the "Exceed Base Roll" the more I think about it: it matches the overall probability of the d6/4+, but makes it feel more like other "cool" abilities in D&D, and, as you alluded in your concern, makes it so that it mostly negates high rolls.

...no, wait. It's still going to be less effective than the d6/4+. The d6/4+ kicks in only when you are successfully hit. It reduces your chance of being hit by 50%. Any sort of comparison to the attack roll actually only matters when the attack roll is sufficiently high to begin with.

What this does is asymptotically approach a 50% miss chance, the more your opponent breaks bounded accuracy and can just hit you at will. The closer his attack bonus is to your AC-10, the less effective this is.

So, the question is: Is the Hexblade Patron's 50% miss chance appropriate, or should it be less likely to protect you?



Like stated above, the only difference between (regular) Hexblade and Eldritch Knight (other than base Fighter abilities - and not counting spell access) is Heavy Armor access.

And with Warlock's Slots renewing on a Short Rest, the Hexblade is quickly overshadowing the EK.

Multiclassing into both Fighter and Paladin only gives Medium Armor, shields, with simple and martial weapons. Rangers gets those and also gets +1 skill from their list. But then, Rangers only ever get Medium Armor, shields, and all weapons.

Which is why most people will take 2 Fighter, and 1 Paladin (or - rarely - 3 Ranger) at Character Creation, then go at least 3 levels Warlock (Hexblade mostly for flavor, see below), and then take more levels in the chosen Class: Fighter 2 for Second Wind, Fighter 5 for Extra Attack; Paladin 2 for Smite, Paladin 5 for Extra Attack;

(except for Saves and Skills, taking Ranger has the same effect, regardless of which was taken first - usually Hunter, although Gloomestalker is gaining popularity).

Someone that went Fighter (Paladin) / Hexblade earned Heavy Armor access, and most likely took Hexblade for the Hexblade's Curse more than anything else.Right; pre-Hexblade Patron, going Hexblade was almost a guaranteed "start with Fighter" multiclassing build. Whether you multiclass back for Eldritch Knight after getting the Pact of the Blade is an open question, but you almost had to start with Fighter to maximize effectiveness from level 1 (and not have a really weird playstyle shift forced by being a caster until level 3, then finally getting to gish). Eldritch Knights at least could start as fighters and gish at level 3, which is a slightly more natural progression.

Bolding to make sure it's seen: How do you feel about the Hexblade Patron as written granting medium armor and shields at first level?



My real complaint with giving (base) Hexblade medium armor is that it allows for Very High AC at Low Levels.Sounds like you don't care for it, is the answer to my bolded question above, but confirmation would be nice.


Which means that the PCs with High AC are able to take on CRs around Three times their level! (Like a Level One PC with AC 18-19 can easily take on most CR 3 Monsters)

Now, I'm an experienced enough DM that I can adapt, but I also wanted to let New DMs know about this problem, and suggest possible ways to how they can be avoided.

Now, Armor Cost keeps all the classes to Scale Mail (50 gp. AC 14 +2 Dex +2 shield = 18) at best, until around 3rd level.

Studded Leather is 45 gold. (AC 12 +2 shield + [5] Dex = 19 max).

At 750 gp for Half-Plate (AC 15 + 2 Dex and +2 shield = 19), even the Fighter and Paladin are not really scary with Splint Mail (AC 17 +2 shield = 19) for 200 gp.

Plate (AC 18 +2 shield = 20) costing 1,500 gp means that this is normally not available until about 5th level.

Since I have Magical Armor in my games, AC can get close to 30 by 17th level!!

And the poor Mage is SOL, with Mage Armor (AC 13 + Dex) and an extra +5 from Shield a few times a day. 23 max: Forever.
(I have my own solution for this)Valid concerns, though it's worth noting that theoretically mages having a weakness of comparatively-low AC is actually fairly appropriate to the standard D&D paradigm. 3e's untouchable mages were not deliberate design.



Now, as always, the biggest part is optimization at Character Creation.

Anyone with 20 Dex (Halflings, Elves, and Goblins) doesn't need Heavy Armor, since they can get an AC 19 with just Studded Leather and shield. (55 gp) From 1st level!

But, starting out with access to Medium Armor means that even with a 14 Dex, they can still rock out with that same AC 19 as soon as they get 760 gp. (About 3rd level?)

True, Heavy Armor plus shield can get AC 20:
But, usually not before 5th level.Indeed. Though 18-20 Dex is a significant investment.



Shillalah being available to allow for better damage isn't really a problem. Would make even "no Martial Weapons" Hexblades suck less.

Since in my games, a shield and the Shield spell don't add together, I've taken the Shield spell off the Hexblade's expanded spell list, and put Catapult Ice Knife instead. Heh. In the game I'm running right now, the party wizard has both ice knife and catapult.

And the reason I add shillelagh to the Warlock list in this "replace the Hexblade Patron" effort is precisely to make the would-be Pact of the Blade Warlock suck less until he can get his Pact, yeah.



IDK. Perhaps having where there is more than one Being making Hexblade weapons? While keeping the weapon itself as the Patron as the better way to go, but adding where each weapon has individual goals and motivations - loosely based on who made it? Hexblade-crafter Beings could at least give an In World explanation on where these Weapons come from.

I have the following Goals:

(Good) "Seek out Good in all Beings, even Undead. Destroy true Fiends and Undead that seek to harm the innocent."

(Evil) "Command the Undead. Enslave the Living." (I'm thinking about changing this to Undying)


******
I also agree that both Hex-tomes and Hex-chains are difficult to figure out. But short of declaring Hexblade a Blade Pact only and making new Pacts for “Shadow” Tome and Chain Warlocks, (which I'd rather not do) I'm not sure what to do.

With access to a Martial Weapon from 1st level, taking Blade Pact also means that you can't lose your Bonded Weapon. Perhaps allowing the now Bonded Hexblade Weapon to still change weapon (and damage) type, but always doing the damage of the original Weapon?

I suppose that the Hex-chains could be considered good for recon.
Maybe have an Invocation to allow the Familiar to channel all Attack-based spells, including ranged? "Enspell Familiar"?
Requires Voice of the Chain Master.

Hex-Tomes are more caster-based; but still able to engage more in (melee) combat than any other Tomelock.
*******
I do agree that all Blade Pacts are intended to be Gish-ish.
I feel it's important to point out, here, that the changes proposed in the opening post and discussed further in this thread are specifically designed to replace and remove the Hexblade Patron entirely as an option. They're meant to fill its function of making Blade Pact Warlocks martially competent enough to gish from level 1, so their acquisition of their Pact Blade is a culmination of the dream rather than a necessity for them to start playing the character they wanted to.

They're likely not terribly useful to those who aren't taking Pact of the Blade, but they're not useless, either. I also am more comfortable with "yeah, this Invocation is meant for somebody taking Pact of the Blade" than I am with "This Patron is custom-designed for this particular Pact."


As to your idea about multiple sentient blades to be PAtrons, that's fine and cool, but you can actually now make them each unique patrons. PErsonally, unless the character actually has the weapon in hand, I dislike the notion of weapons as patrons. And it still clashes with Pact of the Blade (and is weird with other Pacts) to have the Patron be a weapon. But with the Hexblade not a "thing" and freedom to take any Patron you want and still Gish as a 'lock, you're free to make more Patrons that fit the same concept without having to make them rehash the bonuses of the "Hexblade Patron."


I think my take-away on the armor proficiency centers around the purpose of these changes: it's meant to replace the Hexblade Patron with costs in Invocation and spell selection. Hence granting the medium armor proficiency of the Hexblade Patron through that Invocation.

Great Dragon
2019-05-21, 01:34 PM
And the reason I add shillelagh to the Warlock list in this "replace the Hexblade Patron" effort is precisely to make the would-be Pact of the Blade Warlock suck less until he can get his Pact, yeah.

I feel it's important to point out, here, that the changes proposed in the opening post and discussed further in this thread are specifically designed to replace and remove the Hexblade Patron entirely as an option. They're meant to fill its function of making Blade Pact Warlocks martially competent enough to gish from level 1, so their acquisition of their Pact Blade is a culmination of the dream rather than a necessity for them to start playing the character they wanted to.

They're likely not terribly useful to those who aren't taking Pact of the Blade, but they're not useless, either. I also am more comfortable with "yeah, this Invocation is meant for somebody taking Pact of the Blade" than I am with "This Patron is custom-designed for this particular Pact."
I'll need to spend some time reading and pondering on your original post.

But, from what I can recall, you're wanting to take Hexblade out completely, add it into all the other Patrons as “Spell plus Invocations” options. Am I close?

Sadly, I don't have a consistent group Experienced enough (and/or willing) to do Playtesting: Where different versions of a Class can be tested and then compared. (See sig)

The main questions that I think of with your option is,
(1) “How does the Hexblade options really fit into another Patron?”

(2) Shouldn't there be a difference between a normal Warlock and a Hexblade, even from the same Patron? And why would anyone want the other Pact options?

(3) What (normal) Warlock abilities does the Hexblade replace?
Just Invocation choices?
No… you're wanting the difference to be there at 1st level.


”Hit Resistence”
As written, I have it cost no action, but it does cost you casting a specific spell and making that as one of your selections for said spell's 3 options you get.

I also like the "Exceed Base Roll" the more I think about it: it matches the overall probability of the d6/4+, but makes it feel more like other "cool" abilities in D&D, and, as you alluded in your concern, makes it so that it mostly negates high rolls.

...no, wait. It's still going to be less effective than the d6/4+. The d6/4+ kicks in only when you are successfully hit. It reduces your chance of being hit by 50%. Any sort of comparison to the attack roll actually only matters when the attack roll is sufficiently high to begin with.

What this does is asymptotically approach a 50% miss chance, the more your opponent breaks bounded accuracy and can just hit you at will. The closer his attack bonus is to your AC-10, the less effective this is.

So, the question is: Is the Hexblade Patron's 50% miss chance appropriate, or should it be less likely to protect you?

Well, I was thinking that the flat 50% miss chance affecting even Natural 20s was a bit much.

Spending a Spell Slot on a 50% miss chance also seems harsh. It might be better to just allow a Reaction to impose Disadvantage, usable Cha modifier times per day.

The Adamant Defense Invocation was to allow the effects of a Critical Hit to be effectively negated, but the Warlock is still hit and takes damage. It also cost a Reaction and a Spell Slot.
Which puts a very hard (but renewable) limit.


Bolding to make sure it's seen: How do you feel about the Hexblade Patron as written granting medium armor and shields at first level?

Sounds like you don't care for it, is the answer to my bolded question above, but confirmation would be nice.
Note: all Bladelocks are nearly as powerful as both Fighter with Extra Attack (Thirsting Blade Invocation) and Paladin with Smite (Eldritch Smite Invocation) at 5th level, without needing to Multiclass.

Confirming: I really kinda don't like it (especially combined with Martial Weapons) since it greatly overshadows all the other Patron options. Having access to shields and a single weapon is still prefered, since that is only a small increase in the Warlock's versatility; and the other Martials (Barbarian, Fighter, Paladin, and Ranger) still have an edge.

Combined with Medium Armor (plus shield) means that the Hexblade is on par with all but the most heavily armored Martials. (Plate+shield)

Makes Hexblade the “go to” class (especially for Gish), and I like to see all the Classes being chosen to be played.


As to your idea about multiple sentient blades to be PAtrons, that's fine and cool, but you can actually now make them each unique patrons. PErsonally, unless the character actually has the weapon in hand, I dislike the notion of weapons as patrons. And it still clashes with Pact of the Blade (and is weird with other Pacts) to have the Patron be a weapon. But with the Hexblade not a "thing" and freedom to take any Patron you want and still Gish as a 'lock, you're free to make more Patrons that fit the same concept without having to make them rehash the bonuses of the "Hexblade Patron."

This seems to be nearly rewriting the other Patrons.
Unless there is an obvious difference between the regular Pact (say, a Great Old One) and the Hexblade option and a real benefit for taking the "regular" Pact, everyone would always choose the Hexblade option: And get "cool" Patron abilities and powers.


I think my take-away on the armor proficiency centers around the purpose of these changes: it's meant to replace the Hexblade Patron with costs in Invocation and spell selection. Hence granting the medium armor proficiency of the Hexblade Patron through that Invocation.

Which might work with how you have your version set up.


*****
I was on a different track:
Keeping the original Hexblade, adding more "Crafters", and making changes to make the Hexblade a little less OP, or being so much of a “go to” (Gish) class.

Segev
2019-05-21, 04:06 PM
I'll need to spend some time reading and pondering on your original post.

But, from what I can recall, you're wanting to take Hexblade out completely, add it into all the other Patrons as “Spell plus Invocations” options. Am I close?Right. The idea behind this thread is to eliminate the Hexblade as a Patron.

Instead, acknowledging that the Hexblade Patron is designed to make level 1-2 Warlocks intending to go Pact of the Blade at level 3 able to gish from the get-go, the idea is to provide them a means of effective gishing for those levels without locking them into a specific patron.


Sadly, I don't have a consistent group Experienced enough (and/or willing) to do Playtesting: Where different versions of a Class can be tested and then compared. (See sig)Heh. Nor do I; I do enjoy theorycraft, though.


The main questions that I think of with your option is,
(1) “How does the Hexblade options really fit into another Patron?” I answer this with a question designed to make you analyze your assumptions: "How do Pact of the Blade and its various associated options fit onto any Patron other than Hexblade?"

Making the spell, cantrip, and Invocation replacement(s) for the Hexblade is not designed to "fit onto" another Patron any more than Pact of the Blade is meant to "fit onto" them. Or, put another way, it fits them as well as any other option a Warlock has that isn't a Patron fits those other Patrons.


(2) Shouldn't there be a difference between a normal Warlock and a Hexblade, even from the same Patron? And why would anyone want the other Pact options?What's a "normal warlock?" Without the Hexblade Patron, what's a "Hexblade Warlock?"

The Warlock who takes shillelagh and eldritch curse as first level options has greatly increased his melee capabilities, but that doesn't make him incompatible with a Great Old One or a Fiend or an Archfey, nor even the Raven Queen or the Undead Patron. Probably fits best with the Fiend, but the Fiend fits best with aggressive builds in general.

So the difference between a Warlock who takes eldritch curse and one who takes a different spell is the same as it always has been: they have different spells and playstyles based on them.


(3) What (normal) Warlock abilities does the Hexblade replace?
Just Invocation choices?
No… you're wanting the difference to be there at 1st level.In my formulation, there is no "Hexblade." There is an addition of one extant Cantrip (shillelagh) to the Warlock spell list, which he may choose if he wants, a new first level spell (eldritch curse) which gives options for improving your ability to fight a particular target, and a new Invocation (Eldritch Armaments) which gives proficiencies in armor and shields as early as 2nd level if you pick that as your first invocation.

So the costs are a different investment focus than if you're not aiming to be a meleeist or a gish.


Well, I was thinking that the flat 50% miss chance affecting even Natural 20s was a bit much.Maybe, maybe not. The current Hexblade Patron that I'm looking to excise and replace the functionality of does give a 50% miss chance no matter what kind of roll caused the hit, natural 20 included.


Spending a Spell Slot on a 50% miss chance also seems harsh. It might be better to just allow a Reaction to impose Disadvantage, usable Cha modifier times per day.I think you're misunderstanding. As I currently have it, if you have the upgrade invocation that includes this option, you can, as one of the options you get when casting eldritch curse choose a 50% miss chance on all attacks from your target. It costs a spell slot, but not per use. It does require knowing a particular spell (and casting it) and a particular invocation (and using one of its granted abilities over others the spell could give). But then it lasts for a while against the one target you cast it on.


The Adamant Defense Invocation was to allow the effects of a Critical Hit to be effectively negated, but the Warlock is still hit and takes damage. It also cost a Reaction and a Spell Slot.
Which puts a very hard (but renewable) limit.It's a different approach, and more self-contained. Not necessarily a bad invocation, but awfully situational; crits aren't that common, and being hit at all is still very disappointing. Strikes me as a very low-level invocation.


Note: all Bladelocks are nearly as powerful as both Fighter with Extra Attack (Thirsting Blade Invocation) and Paladin with Smite (Eldritch Smite Invocation) at 5th level, without needing to Multiclass.But play like casters for levels 1-2, which is the problem that Hexblade sought to rectify. And thus which anything replacing Hexblade needs to also address.


Confirming: I really kinda don't like it (especially combined with Martial Weapons) since it greatly overshadows all the other Patron options. Having access to shields and a single weapon is still prefered, since that is only a small increase in the Warlock's versatility; and the other Martials (Barbarian, Fighter, Paladin, and Ranger) still have an edge.

Combined with Medium Armor (plus shield) means that the Hexblade is on par with all but the most heavily armored Martials. (Plate+shield)

Makes Hexblade the “go to” class (especially for Gish), and I like to see all the Classes being chosen to be played.That's fair. It's not cool to so badly overshadow other gish options that they become non-options in comparison.


This seems to be nearly rewriting the other Patrons.
Unless there is an obvious difference between the regular Pact (say, a Great Old One) and the Hexblade option and a real benefit for taking the "regular" Pact, everyone would always choose the Hexblade option: And get "cool" Patron abilities and powers.Nah. I wasn't touching any other Patrons. I had thought you were proposing multiple NEW Patrons, and that's to what I was replying here.

Great Dragon
2019-05-22, 10:46 AM
Heh. Nor do I; I do enjoy theorycraft, though.
It can be interesting, but actually seeing it brought to life is lots more Fun!!


Right. The idea behind this thread is to eliminate the Hexblade as a Patron.

Instead, acknowledging that the Hexblade Patron is designed to make level 1-2 Warlocks intending to go Pact of the Blade at level 3 able to gish from the get-go, the idea is to provide them a means of effective gishing for those levels without locking them into a specific patron.

The problem there is, that all you need to do in order to make all the Patrons Gish from 1st level is just add shillelagh to all of them.

And now we have SCAG and Booming Blade, Lightning Lash, and Green Flame Blade, so Shillelagh isn't really needed, anymore.

Upon doing some research, I've noticed that even with the new options in Xanathar's, there is very little difference between Blade, Chain, and Tome Pacts when it comes to spell choices. And this is even true with Invocations, except for obvious choices.

With Tome being the least affected, since all the Book of Ancient Secrets does is give slightly better access to Ritual spells, when compared to the Feat.


I answer this with a question designed to make you analyze your assumptions: "How do Pact of the Blade and its various associated options fit onto any Patron other than Hexblade?"

Making the spell, cantrip, and Invocation replacement(s) for the Hexblade is not designed to "fit onto" another Patron any more than Pact of the Blade is meant to "fit onto" them. Or, put another way, it fits them as well as any other option a Warlock has that isn't a Patron fits those other Patrons.

The Warlock who takes shillelagh and eldritch curse as first level options has greatly increased his melee capabilities, but that doesn't make him incompatible with a Great Old One or a Fiend or an Archfey, nor even the Raven Queen or the Undead Patron. Probably fits best with the Fiend, but the Fiend fits best with aggressive builds in general.

So the difference between a Warlock who takes eldritch curse and one who takes a different spell is the same as it always has been: they have different spells and playstyles based on them.

I still tend to see the "Hexblade" as a different Pact, especially if "added" to another Patron.

But, even the original "Hexblade" had problems really showing the difference between the Pacts.
The Blade just never lost their Weapon.
The Chain had an Invisible Familiar.
The Tome could do more Out of Combat stuff, but still Gish-ed with the rest.

Your changes don't really address this problem, and actually causes more confusion, since there is no "Hexblade" to begin with; it just means that, like I pointed out above, the Players could get all the benefits of a chosen Patron and take whatever Pact they wanted, and by simply picking Weapon Cantrip and Eldritch Curse spells, still be standing above all other Gish options.


What's a "normal warlock?" Without the Hexblade Patron, what's a "Hexblade Warlock?"

In my formulation, there is no "Hexblade."
Yes, but the original "Hexblade" still needs to be compared to, for the discussion. (Which is what I'm pointing to in my references to it)

Only by covering all that the original subclass does, can you "eliminate" it.

Ok: so the things that are really needed to focus on are:
"Armor, shield, and Weapons" and
"Hexblade's Curse"
All the other "Hexblade" abilities can be made into Invocations.

Giving shields (and maybe a weapon) at 1st Level should be ok. Especially with Weapon Cantrips added.

Blade Pact already allows changing the Bonded Weapon between Martial Weapon types.
The Improved Pact Weapon Invocation also gives access to All Ranged Weapons.

Putting Medium Armor behind an Invocation that requires either Blade Pact (or 5th level) can work.
So long as the DM is aware that this will allow PCs with 14 Dex to still achieve AC 19 easily.
Since making it have that requirement means that the PC needs to go to 5th level to get it, means that it becomes less of a choice for Multiclassing.

Note: the only real Multiclassing problem is: "Hexblade" Warlock plus Rogues.
Giving Rogues access to both (mithril) Half Plate and shield is a bit potent. But, by making Medium Armor available only at 5th level with an Invocation, this is less of a problem.
**
The "Curse" part is the hardest to work with.
Making it a spell is one option, but then that spell would almost always be chosen.
Which just leads back to the problem of what separates the Pacts.

Since your wanting to put "Curse" into all the other Patrons, I'd suggest making "Curse" it's own Pact.
With all the options (one weapon, base "Hexblade Curse" abilities, Hex Armor, Miss Chance, etc) available upon taking it.
The Player still needs to choose which option is active each round. (Take "Armaments" Invocation for Medium Armor)

This suggestion makes the Player choose between Blade (Weapon versitility) and Curse (affect other Creatures) while still allowing Chain (Familiar) and Tome (Rituals) to stand out.

It also makes Hexadins take more the just one "Hexblade" level to get Cursing powers.


*****
To me, having a Weapon being the Patron is less weird then some Near-God-Level Being(s) "randomly" giving out Power to mortals.

Making a Deal with (the) Devils is a classic trope, but doing so almost always lands the mortal in bigger trouble. Usually in the "Eternity" department.

Stealing the Power from a Patron could work, I suppose, but then the DM is considered being "mean" when they have said Being take notice and confronting the PC.


It's a different approach, and more self-contained. Not necessarily a bad invocation, but awfully situational; crits aren't that common, and being hit at all is still very disappointing. Strikes me as a very low-level invocation.

Just keep Rebuking Curse but adding that on a 20 rolled by the Warlock cancels the Double Damage of a Natural 20 - but still hits and does normal damage? (The odds of a Natural 20 being rolled by two different people is really high)


Nah. I wasn't touching any other Patrons. I had thought you were proposing multiple NEW Patrons, and that's to what I was replying here.

Well, multiple new Patrons was my original idea, but changing them to (Hexblade) Crafter Beings works better for my games.
Unlike "The Raven Queen" they can be Encountered directly.
**********
I am working on making different Warlock Pacts to see the difference (I'm very visual) between them.

Segev
2019-05-22, 11:05 AM
I think we might be cross-communicating due to terminology mix-ups.

As I understand the terms, "Pacts" are Blade, Chain, and Tome. The differences between Pacts are their specifically-granted features, and any Invocations that are exclusive to them.

What I think you're referring to half the time are the different Patrons. What differentiates them are the spells they add to the list of choices to learn, and their Patron powers (e.g. the Fiend's temporary hp on killing things, or the Great Old One's Thrall). There are no Invocations, to my knowledge, exclusive to any of them.

Spells that are on the Warlock list natively never differentiate between Patrons.

So, by eliminating the Hexblade Patron, I am deliberately aiming to grant its powers to a Warlock of any Patron. It may be feasible to lock some things behind Pact of the Blade, but they all have to be things I'm willing to make a Warlock wait until 3rd level or later for. The point of Hexblade-the-Patron was primarily to patch levels 1 and 2 for would-be Blade Pact Warlocks, hence my replacement mechanics mostly focusing on making those same patches.

Instead of "paying" your Patron choice for them, though, I'm making you "pay" a spell and at least one Invocation choice for them. And also making the use of the former Patron power of Hexblade's Curse cost a spell slot each use, and be weaker until you start upcasting it (to keep it from being too good a choice for grabbing with multiclassing or Magic Initiate).


Notably, it is available on Magic Initiate, so eldritch curse could be learned and upcast by Eldritch Knights.

Great Dragon
2019-05-22, 12:24 PM
Well, I was trying to keep Patron and Pact being noticeably different in my posts.

The original Hexblade was "curse a foe" with Pact Variants. And like you said didn't really make sense outside of Blade Pact.

With my "Curse Pact" available to all Patrons, I was trying to keep to the original "this is a Warlock thing" idea.
This way, the PC could have GoO's Thrall and Curse; but not Thrall, Curse (spell), and Blade/Tome/Chain.


*****
But, if you're cool with anyone being able to get it as a spell, and Warlock Invocation giving additional options to it - go for it.
I'll be checking for your updates on that.


*****
I figure it'll take at least a month to test the "Hexblade" changes that I made (above), and then at least another month to see if I can test the "Curse Pact" option.

Segev
2019-05-22, 02:06 PM
Well, I was trying to keep Patron and Pact being noticeably different in my posts.

The original Hexblade was "curse a foe" with Pact Variants. And like you said didn't really make sense outside of Blade Pact.

With my "Curse Pact" available to all Patrons, I was trying to keep to the original "this is a Warlock thing" idea.
This way, the PC could have GoO's Thrall and Curse; but not Thrall, Curse (spell), and Blade/Tome/Chain.


*****
But, if you're cool with anyone being able to get it as a spell, and Warlock Invocation giving additional options to it - go for it.
I'll be checking for your updates on that.


*****
I figure it'll take at least a month to test the "Hexblade" changes that I made (above), and then at least another month to see if I can test the "Curse Pact" option.
I look forward to hearing how your tests go. I do suggest you write up the changes somewhat formally, so they can be evaluated as their own mechanics by those not engaged in the playtest. I'll probably make it easier for your playtesters to build, too.

Having a "Curse Pact" as a third-level thing in place of other Pacts is not something I'd considered, but seems to defeat the purpose of the Hexblade Patron in the first place: complementing and patching the flaws in the Pact of the Blade.


I am not in a position to engage playtesting, but my anticipation is that the spell may be useful to non-Bladelocks, but not as useful to them. The Invocation just won't be useful if the character isn't intending to go gish, and to go gish without going Pact of the Blade seems odd, as well. But the options remain. In short: I expect that most Bladelocks would take the new spell and the new Invocation, and few non-Bladelocks would, but it wouldn't be a "trap" option for the latter.

Great Dragon
2019-05-22, 07:48 PM
Having a "Curse Pact" as a third-level thing in place of other Pacts is not something I'd considered, but seems to defeat the purpose of the Hexblade Patron in the first place: complementing and patching the flaws in the Pact of the Blade.

Depends on how you are looking at "fixing" the Hexblade. With the addition of Cantrips like Booming Blade, etc means that being able to get into melee and do decent damage even at 1st level, isn't a problem.

If all your worried about is adding "Hexblade's Curse" to Blade Pact, then having the "Eldritch Curse" spell with Invocation enhancement solves that.

Just keep in mind that the spell/Invocation can also be taken by both Chain and Tome and be almost as "effective" as Blade.
*******
With the "Curse" Pact, players were able to get all the "affect the foe" Abilities of the (original) Hexblade.

And "Blade" Pact got Weapon versatility.

With maybe only needing the "Eldritch Armaments" Invocation to either of those Pacts.

With all the Patrons/Pacts still being able to "Gish" from the ability to use Weapon Cantrips, light armor, a shield, and maybe a Weapon from 1st level.
******
I'll type up the different changes so that my testing Players can read them over. I'll try to post everything, but may take some time.

I liked the debate, and look forward to seeing some Playtesting results.

Grod_The_Giant
2019-05-23, 06:49 AM
Adding Shillelegh to the Warlock list is potentially dangerous, I think-- Magic Inititiate has a lower cost than a one-level dip, and now anyone who wants can simultaneously pick up casting-stat-to-attack, the best ranged attack cantrip in the game, and the best first level damage boosting spell on the game in one fell swoop. I'd prefer to see Hex Warrior as an Invocation, to make the relative cost a bit higher.

Eldritch Curse strikes me as unnecessary-- it has pretty much the exact same thematics as Hex, but in a generally-inferior way.

Segev
2019-05-23, 07:33 AM
Keeping in mind that this is meant to replace Hexblade as a patron, does this mean you find Eldritch Curse not to be overpowered, since Hex does it better?

I do agree that adding Shillelagh to the warlock list carries risks. Putting the ability to wield a decent melee weapon in an invocation delays it to level 2, though.

Grod_The_Giant
2019-05-23, 09:26 AM
Keeping in mind that this is meant to replace Hexblade as a patron, does this mean you find Eldritch Curse not to be overpowered, since Hex does it better?
Ehh... Hex has a clear mechanical advantage on a Warlock, who doesn't want to spend multiple slots in a single encounter, while I think Curse's lack of Concentration makes it stronger on a normal caster. I don't think it's balance is bad so much as it's unnecessary. If you want to keep it in, I think it might be more elegant as an invocation, something like "you can cast Hex without Concentration, but it ends when the first target dies."


I do agree that adding Shillelagh to the warlock list carries risks. Putting the ability to wield a decent melee weapon in an invocation delays it to level 2, though.
A one-handed 1d8 weapon is a decent melee weapon; the only real reason the expanded weapon options matter is... well, I was about to say "for the visual," but a Shillelagh-whip would be pretty sweet. Other than that, there's no real mechanical advantage. I'd be inclined to fold the cantrip into the invocation, something like:


Eldritch Armament
You learn the the Shillelagh cantrip. When you cast it, you may target any weapon that lacks the two-handed property with it. If you later gain the Pact of the Blade feature, you may target any pact weapon you conjure with that feature, no matter the weapon's type.

(I'm inclined to say keep the bonus action, for what it's worth-- even as an Invocation I think casting-stat-to-attack is a little strong).

Great Dragon
2019-05-23, 09:48 AM
I do agree that adding Shillelagh to the warlock list carries risks. Putting the ability to wield a decent melee weapon in an invocation delays it to level 2, though.

This might not be a bad thing, though.
Shows a real difference between the two Gish paths: Start "Warrior" or start "Caster".

The Warlock starting with, say, Quarterstaff (two handed) plus Booming Blade at 1st level means that they are doing 1d8 blunt + 1d8 Thunder damage if the target moves before the Warlock's next turn.

Really, the only way to improve the damage is to have a versital weapon: (two handed) Longsword, Warhammer, or Battleaxe for 1d10 damage; or a Great Weapon for either 1d12 or 2d6 damage.

Sure, everyone else that has that Cantrip (Sorcerer, Wizard) can do the same, but can't Gish without Multiclassing.

Also, Grod makes a valid point, Hexblade's Curse is supposed to supplement the Hex spell.
However, I can see your point with the "Curse spell", since the effects are basically the same:
Both methods require a two-round set-up to achieve.

I do wonder if changing Hexblade's Curse to an Action so that Hex can also be used as a Bonus Action in the same Turn would be ok?

Segev
2019-05-23, 10:04 AM
Perhaps there's merit to "start caster" as the explanation for why warlocks don't start out gishing well.

However, by that token...why is Hexblade needed as a Patron?

Great Dragon
2019-05-23, 10:14 AM
@Grod:
Whip with Green Flame Blade is also cool.


Perhaps there's merit to "start caster" as the explanation for why warlocks don't start out gishing well.

However, by that token...why is Hexblade needed as a Patron?

See, that's the thing.

I see lots of DMs either modifying the (original) Hexblade, or just flat out banning that Patron from their games.

I like what the "original" Hexblade does, but I do change it so that it doesn't become the "go to" Gish class.

After all, Gish-ing isn't supposed to be (super) easy to achieve.

Segev
2019-05-23, 10:36 AM
See, that's the thing.

I see lots of DMs either modifying the (original) Hexblade, or just flat out banning that Patron from their games.

I like what the Hexblade does, but I do change it so that it doesn't become the "go to" Gish class.Those are valid solutions if you don't think it serves a good/useful/valid purpose. This thread's impetus accepts the premise that Hexblade provided a needed patch, even if it did so poorly.

Now, there's discussion to be had over whether Hexblade really did provide a needed patch. But if it didn't, that means an entirely different approach than what I'm proposing in this thread. So for comparison's sake, if the changes made here allow the same playability of concept as Hexblade, but without the silly Patron, while still being equally well-balanced, I think they're doing the job I want them to.


After all, Gish-ing isn't supposed to be super easy to achieve.Why not? It's as valid a play-style as straight fighter or straight caster.

Grod_The_Giant
2019-05-23, 10:47 AM
However, by that token...why is Hexblade needed as a Patron?
Because Blade Pact alone was insufficient to make a competent gish. That's really the only reason I can think of for it to exist.


Why not? It's as valid a play-style as straight fighter or straight caster.
I agree that playing a gish should be just as easy and valid as a pure fighter or caster, but part of that assumption is that there are trade-offs. You shouldn't be as good with a sword as a pure Fighter, or as good with a spell as a pure Wizard. Requiring players to prioritize one stat or the other is a solid* way of encouraging that.



*Ish. I'm very much in favor of dropping ability scores from 5e altogether, but that's a different kettle of fish

Great Dragon
2019-05-23, 10:53 AM
Why not? It's as valid a play-style as straight fighter or straight caster.
Sure, but left as the Original Hexblade, means that none of the other Patrons are chosen except for flavor.

(With your "Curse spell" making it where the Player can get both their chosen Patron abilities plus Curse powers)

By that, there should also be non-multiclassing "Gish" full caster Sorcerer and Wizard options.

I suppose that Wizard's War Magic might qualify.... I haven't seen it in play, yet.

But, most players/DM don't have a problem with:
Eldritch Knight giving the Fighter/Wizard Gish option.

And Arcane Trickser giving Rogue/Wizard option.


*****
Maybe I'm just too much of a Grognard.

In a lot of Fantasy (and D&D in particular) there was a lot of "focus" on doing something:
Being a Fighter took lots of dedicated training.

Being a Mage was just as much dedicated training to truly master magic.

The Gish split their training between these two, and we're never as "powerful" as a PC that was "focused" on only one.
(For D&D, this meant that the Gish was not as "strong" in combat as a Fighter, or as "powerful" (spell level) as a Mage of equal - total - levels.)

Even RAW 5e tries to support that, which is why so many DMs disliked the "original" Hexblade.

Except for spell choices:
Made all the other options unwanted.

Segev
2019-05-23, 11:01 AM
Sure, but left as the Original Hexblade, means that none of the other Patrons are chosen except for flavor.

(With your "Curse spell" making it where the Player can get both their chosen Patron abilities plus Curse powers)

By that, there should also be non-multiclassing "Gish" full caster Sorcerer and Wizard options.

I suppose that Wizard's War Magic might qualify.... I haven't seen it in play, yet.

But, most players/DM don't have a problem with:
Eldritch Knight giving the Fighter/Wizard Gish option.

And Arcane Trickser giving Rogue/Wizard option.

I think the Bladesinger does that for Wizards, too, though admittedly any Wizard archetype doesn't kick in until level 2.

What you're arguing, here, though, is that we just don't need the Hexblade Patron at all. Which I can shrug and agree with.

My goal was to remove what I saw as a stupid bit of flavor (that comes at the expense of much better flavor) by changing the cost from the most flavorful part of the Warlock to more mechanical crunch: cantrip, spell, and invocation choices.

Great Dragon
2019-05-23, 11:35 AM
I think the Bladesinger does that for Wizards, too, though admittedly any Wizard archetype doesn't kick in until level 2.


What you're arguing, here, though, is that we just don't need the Hexblade Patron at all. Which I can shrug and agree with.
Umm. Not quite. Like I posted above, I can deal with the "Weapon Patron", but I toned down the "starting power" of the Hexblade, so that other Warlock Patrons were still viable. (Mostly just no medium armor, and not giving full access to Martial Weapons.)


My goal was to remove what I saw as a stupid bit of flavor (that comes at the expense of much better flavor) by changing the cost from the most flavorful part of the Warlock to more mechanical crunch: cantrip, spell, and invocation choices.

Now, I can agree on Fluff/flavor.
There needs to be some explaination as to where these Weapons come from.
Beyond some "mysterious" Raven Queen.

I can totally see a Holy Avenger being a Hexblade Patron, slowly revealing it's true power over 17 levels.

I'm still working on the "Evil" Hexblade, mostly on how it's different from Fiend Patron.

Most of the "common" Hexblade weapons are Awakened magical weapons.
(Work in Progress)

Great Dragon
2019-05-23, 11:56 AM
I think the Bladesinger does that for Wizards, too, though admittedly any Wizard archetype doesn't kick in until level 2.
Another subclass I haven't seen.


What you're arguing, here, though, is that we just don't need the Hexblade Patron at all. Which I can shrug and agree with.
Umm. Not quite. Like I posted before, I can deal with the "Weapon Patron", but I toned down the "starting power" of the Hexblade, so that other Warlock Patrons were still viable. (Mostly just no medium armor, and not giving full access to Martial Weapons.)

Mostly to stop V-Human with PAM at 1st level "Hexblade" Warlock.


My goal was to remove what I saw as a stupid bit of flavor (that comes at the expense of much better flavor) by changing the cost from the most flavorful part of the Warlock to more mechanical crunch: cantrip, spell, and invocation choices.

Now, I can agree on Fluff/flavor.
There needs to be some explaination as to where these Weapons come from.
Beyond some "mysterious" Raven Queen.

I can totally see a Holy Avenger being a Hexblade Patron, slowly revealing it's true power over 17 levels.

Or a Dragonslayer doing the same.

I'm still working on the "Evil" Hexblade, mostly on how it's different from Fiend Patron. I suppose "Revenger" can work, but I try to be a little less obvious.

Most of the "common" Hexblade weapons are Awakened magical weapons.
(Work in Progress)

Grod_The_Giant
2019-05-23, 12:18 PM
"Slowly revealing the power of a magic weapon" is more of a Fighter archetype than anything else, methinks.

Great Dragon
2019-05-23, 01:00 PM
"Slowly revealing the power of a magic weapon" is more of a Fighter archetype than anything else, methinks.

Would you prefer an actual Patron (like every other Warlock), as opposed to the "weapon" being that?

Like, the weapon is a gift of the "Hexblade" Patron, but the true power comes from the Being? (The Weapon is only a link)

Segev was opposed to that; seeing it as only one step away from connection to a deity. (I think)

With the exception of giving nerfed Legendary Weapons at first level, it's hard to imagine the same Weapon at 1st level being able to grant all the Warlock powers (spells, Invocations, "Hexblade" abilities) up to 20th level.

Segev
2019-05-23, 04:21 PM
Would you prefer an actual Patron (like every other Warlock), as opposed to the "weapon" being that?

Like, the weapon is a gift of the "Hexblade" Patron, but the true power comes from the Being? (The Weapon is only a link)

Segev was opposed to that; seeing it as only one step away from connection to a deity. (I think)

With the exception of giving nerfed Legendary Weapons at first level, it's hard to imagine the same Weapon at 1st level being able to grant all the Warlock powers (spells, Invocations, "Hexblade" abilities) up to 20th level.

I don't think I said anything about a deity in this thread, connections thereto or otherwise.

I just think the notion that a sentient weapon is your distant, otherworldly Patron but not something you can or even necessarily ever will be able to wield is really, really dumb fluff and flavor. Add in that the entire Patron makes little mechanical sense for non-Bladepact Warlocks, despite its abilities technically working for them to some degree, and it's bad design, inelegantly done, with an obvious purpose that says, "We think we screwed up the Pact of the Blade by not giving it enough early level support."

So the effort here was to take what was obviously the main purpose of the Hexblade Patron - the Pact of the Blade/Gish support - and turn it into things that cost something other than the Patron choice. And ditching or setting aside as reasonably unrelated options the things that were clearly tacked onto Hexblade Patron to fill it out when they ran out of ideas that played directly to the purpose.

Great Dragon
2019-05-23, 08:36 PM
I don't think I said anything about a deity in this thread, connections thereto or otherwise.
Sorry.


I just think the notion that a sentient weapon is your distant, otherworldly Patron but not something you can or even necessarily ever will be able to wield is really, really dumb fluff and flavor.

I was more thinking that the weapon was a physical manifestation of the "contract" with the Patron, more than a direct connection.


Update
So, the player (also new 5e DM) tried my first idea, and so far has liked it. I did allow the Invocation for Medium Armor, if desired.

Winddragco
2019-06-17, 08:11 PM
One problem I can see VERY invocation taxing.
Two of the invocation to replica 1st level of hexblade, then thirtsy blade to be a competitive melee attacker. Thats already 3 invocatons, and then to reacreate the hex armor thing another one. I would rather just go normal hexblade, and deal with the ugliness just so i have the 4 extra invocation for custimization.

This fix punishes the person chosing to play a gish warlock.

Segev
2019-06-18, 09:58 AM
One problem I can see VERY invocation taxing.
Two of the invocation to replica 1st level of hexblade, then thirtsy blade to be a competitive melee attacker. Thats already 3 invocatons, and then to reacreate the hex armor thing another one. I would rather just go normal hexblade, and deal with the ugliness just so i have the 4 extra invocation for custimization.

This fix punishes the person chosing to play a gish warlock.

While I see the argument, I disagree. To illustrate my perspective, pretend that "Hexblade Patron" had never been invented. Now, say I invented this as my homebrew fix to the fact that "gish warlocks suck at levels 1 and 2." And then I expanded the options with the extra invocations.

In such a scenario, would you say this was punishing gishlocks? I don't see how it could be; it's adding options to make them better able to gish.

I do understand your position: you see this as punishing them in comparison to the Hexblade Patron. In practice, though, they get 90% of the Patron's gifts from adding shillelagh as a cantrip and the 1st level spell. At worst, they lose one Invocation to either the already-extant mage armor invocation or to the new one that gives medium armor proficiency. And they now have an entire Patron that fits however they wish to play, rather than being locked into Hexblade for wanting Pact of the Blade not to suck.

So, I think you should also consider what other Patrons can do in conjunction with the options presented here. Remember that taking Hexblade as a Patron costs you other Patron options.

Imagine, for example, a Fiend Patron on your gish with these options, adding the bonuses to saving throws and the fairly easy access to temp hp for brutally slaughtering things in melee.

...that would be an interesting next exercise, though: coming up with Patrons who are rewarding for Gishlocks without being so focused that they demand Pact of the Blade and/or gishing. Right now, Fiend is probably the best, followed by Archfey, and GOO is...not the best for gishing, no. Raven Queen also doesn't really do much for a gish. Hexblade only does because it's custom built for PAct of the Blade (and really does almost nothing for any other Pact).


Playing on "gish's" origins, maybe Gith as a Patron...?

Winddragco
2019-06-20, 05:39 PM
I will show this to our DM and hopefully I can test this. I think the reason why I find it taxing on invocation is because our party rarely has wizard. So it is more convieant if the warlock had the eyes of the ruins, and various other utility invocations to compensate for party compensation.Edit: another reason are some invocations that goes with rp.

Some thoughts:i have seen a person on another thread suggest baking the hex warrior and charisma for attack/damage ability into the pact of the blade, and making the patron a straight up curse patron. I am newish to dnd(1.5 years), so I don't think I can whip up anything good with that idea.

Edit: sorry if this post was a mess. I am on mobile with tiny tiny screen atm.

Segev
2019-06-20, 11:57 PM
Yeah, you’re not building a wizard-replacer if you’re going gish. Though you can make choices to build more caster than warrior, even here. With this, just raking Shillelagh as a Cantrip goes a long way. The curse spell isn’t crucial to effective gishing, though you’ll probably want an invocation for the armor proficiency, or for mage armor.

Segev
2020-04-24, 09:33 AM
Had some further thoughts on this inspired by this thread, and thought I'd transplant them here. Will edit the opening post later.

Instead of giving the Warlock shillelagh as a possible cantrip, just make their own cantrip and call it "hexblade:"

Hexblade
Transmutation cantrip
Casting Time: 1 bonus action
Range: Touch
Components: V, S, M (a melee weapon)
Duration: 1 minute
The weapon you are holding is imbued with your Patron's power. For the duration, you can use your spellcasting ability instead of Strength for the attack and damage rolls of attacks using that weapon. The weapon also becomes magical, if it isn’t already. The spell ends if you cast it again or if you let go of the weapon. If you have Pact of the Blade, you can cast this spell on your Pact Weapon as part of making an attack with it, and your Pact Weapon is a valid target for this spell no matter its form.


Then, add mage armor to the list of Warlock spells. This obviously is cheaper than an Invocation, and will just be "free" mage armor for a spell pick since they can cast it in the morning and then short rest to regain the spell slot, but it neatly gives them some reasonable melee defense at level 1.

Eldritch Armor can be removed; it really isn't needed to make a proper gish when they have access to Pact of the Blade and the ability to bond weapons by the time they would need something stronger than a simple weapon they can use hexblade on. Instead, rewrite Armor of Shadows to the following:

Armor of Shadows
Your Patron's power suffuses armor and shields you wear, lightening them and giving you a knack with them. You gain proficiency with medium armor and shields. When wearing them, they take on minor cosmetic flourishes of your choosing appropriate to your patron.