Strength Based Grappler Rogue?

[Setharious]

So I have been pondering the different ways to make fun grapplers. I started with the general barbarian thing, but disliked the rage limits. Then thought about monk, but disliked the issue with having very low AC.

It hit me then that, since I was already always thinking about a rogue dip, why not just play rogue straight up with no multiclass? You lose multiattack, and the ability to deal good damage with your fists, but with tavern brawler (gotten at lvl 1 thanks to variant human) You get your 1D4 damage for punching, and grapple as a bonus action. Go into a swashbuckler to have easy disengages when you miss, and at lvl 4 get the grappler feat so once you grapple someone, you can just pound into them with all the sneak attack damage due to your advantage gained why grappling, with expertise on athletics to do much better at grappling, and light armor to have better AC than the strength monk.

What do you think of this? Is it too silly or did I miss anything that could be highly beneficial?

[Man_Over_Game]

So I have been pondering the different ways to make fun grapplers. I started with the general barbarian thing, but disliked the rage limits. Then thought about monk, but disliked the issue with having very low AC.

It hit me then that, since I was already always thinking about a rogue dip, why not just play rogue straight up with no multiclass? You lose multiattack, and the ability to deal good damage with your fists, but with tavern brawler (gotten at lvl 1 thanks to variant human) You get your 1D4 damage for punching, and grapple as a bonus action. Go into a swashbuckler to have easy disengages when you miss, and at lvl 4 get the grappler feat so once you grapple someone, you can just pound into them with all the sneak attack damage due to your advantage gained why grappling, with expertise on athletics to do much better at grappling, and light armor to have better AC than the strength monk.

What do you think of this? Is it too silly or did I miss anything that could be highly beneficial?


Lack of AC (Light Armor and no Dex).
Lack of HP (1d8 Hit Die).
Keeps enemies adjacent to you.



See, the benefit of grappling is that it keeps an enemy adjacent to you, which means that it's best used against enemies who don't want to be there. But if you're a Rogue with no AC, no Rage, and no HP, I'd say that being right next to you is exactly where I want to be.

The reason people take Barbarian is because it fixes all of those problems. Your AC is improved by getting Medium Armor. Your HP is improved by going Barbarian, combined with the fact that you take halved damage. Enemies won't want to be adjacent to you, because you're dealing extra Rage damage for being there, on top of you taking half damage.

Unless you're really lucky and somehow knock an enemy prone while you grapple them, there just isn't any good reasons to go this route. Even if you were able to do that, the Swashbuckler would no longer provide any benefits, as you can neither run away and you don't need the extra clause on Sneak Attack (as you have Advantage on your attack).

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You could talk to your DM, though. I do a lot of homebrew stuff, and the community actually had a hard time breaking the game with these changes:

"Thug: Your Sneak Attack feature no longer requires a Finesse or Ranged weapon. Instead, it now requires a Melee Weapon. You have proficiency in Medium Armor and Martial Weapons.

Additionally, you use your Constitution modifier for your features in place of your Dexterity modifier. This does not change what attribute you use for skills."

This would provide you the AC you'd need for your kind of build, allow you to move away from Swashbuckler (so you could use Scout or some other choice), and allow you to stack up on Constitution for additional benefits.

[Potato_Priest]

Additionally, you use your Constitution modifier for your features in place of your Dexterity modifier. This does not change what attribute you use for skills."[/COLOR]


What features would that even apply to for a single classed rogue? Would that extend evasion to constitution saving throws?

[JNAProductions]

Enforcer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?566793-Enforcer-A-Strongman-s-Rogue) is a class that was designed to be like a Rogue, but with a greater focus on Strength.

[Man_Over_Game]

What features would that even apply to for a single classed rogue? Would that extend evasion to constitution saving throws?

That's the intent, yes. It's a slight nerf, to compensate for the gained proficiencies, while also making you less Dexterity dependent.

[Potato_Priest]

To the OP- Rogue’s survivability problems are not as bad as they are made out to be. In my opinion, rogue is the third most durable class in the game- after the barbarian and the moon Druid. Uncanny dodge is often very undervalued on these forums, evasion is awesome, and with a single feat (moderately armored) you can be packing top tier AC from medium armor and a shield.

[stoutstien]

Straight rogue can be solid grappling characters but lack of second attack makes it very risky. I would recommend being a dwarf for the armor Prof of even better take moderately armored feat then shield master.
With reliable talent you are one of the most consistent grapplers around.

[Man_Over_Game]

To the OP- Rogue’s survivability problems are not as bad as they are made out to be. In my opinion, rogue is the third most durable class in the game- after the barbarian and the moon Druid. Uncanny dodge is often very undervalued on these forums, evasion is awesome, and with a single feat (moderately armored) you can be packing top tier AC from medium armor and a shield.

The catch with Uncanny Dodge is that it requires your Reaction.

Where someone else would be able to use it for an Opportunity Attack, Shield, or a subclass feature, you can use it to block 50% of one attack.

Assuming you get attacked twice, you're still taking 75% normal damage.

[Potato_Priest]

The catch with Uncanny Dodge is that it requires your Reaction.

Where someone else would be able to use it for an Opportunity Attack, Shield, or a subclass feature, you can use it to block 50% of one attack.

Assuming you get attacked twice, you're still taking 75% normal damage.

Assuming you get *hit* twice, you’re correct about the damage. However, you get to use it after rather than before an attack lands.

Additionally, while as a swashbuckler with sentinel your reaction is extremely valuable, as a grappler rogue you don’t really have a better use for it.

[Talionis]

Barbarian 5/ Rogue X is pretty good. You start out with more hit points can rage for resistances that stack with uncanny dodge. Remember if you are grappling someone they can be cover.

[Setharious]

Barbarian 5/ Rogue X is pretty good. You start out with more hit points can rage for resistances that stack with uncanny dodge. Remember if you are grappling someone they can be cover.

I like the idea of the 5 lvls in barb, maybe even one more for the extra rage, but sadly the campaigns I am a part of do not go that long. I think the highest lvl I have gotten to is 6. So I always try to look for powerful low lvl builds.

As for grappled people being cover, how exactly does that work? So long as they are between me and anyone attacking me it counts?

[Talionis]

Then I’d think about Barb 2/ Rogue 1. Get the extra hit points and rage and Advantage on Attacks then Rogue 1 for Expertise.

[Potato_Priest]

I like the idea of the 5 lvls in barb, maybe even one more for the extra rage, but sadly the campaigns I am a part of do not go that long. I think the highest lvl I have gotten to is 6. So I always try to look for powerful low lvl builds.

As for grappled people being cover, how exactly does that work? So long as they are between me and anyone attacking me it counts?

Yup, that’s how it works. Unfortunately, this makes it very difficult to use except in tight corridors/ at long ranges, since there’s usually somewhere an enemy can move to attack around their pal, but it’s a situational benefit.

[Wryte]

I actually had it in my head already to play exactly this concept. My idea:

Assuming point buy, start with 15 in Str and 14+ in Con, then choose Mountain Dwarf, bumping Str to 17 and Con to 16. Additionally, gain medium armor proficiency. At 1st level as a rogue, choose Athletics and Stealth as two of your skills, and put Expertise on both.

This gives you a starting +3 in both Strength and Constitution, giving you good attack rolls and helping to prop up your lower hit die with a beefier Con bonus each level. Expertise in Athletics pumps your grapple check up to a saucy +7, and Expertise in Stealth helps make up for your likely low Dex modifier, especially if the medium armor you can get your hands on disadvantages Stealth.

Leveling up, you'll take Arcane Trickster as your rogue archetype at 3rd level, for precisely one reason: so you can learn enlarge/reduce as your off-school 2nd level spell at 8th level, allowing you to enlarge yourself to a Large creature, and grapple up to Huge creatures. A giant dwarf suplexing actual Giants? Yes please! And if your campaign manages to reach level 19, you can learn fire shield and be constantly burning anyone you've grappled to a crisp just by holding onto them!

At 4th level you'll take the Heavily Armored feat. This bumps your Strength to +4, and lets you wear heavy armor, between which and your solid Con bonus, makes you much more able to stand up to the baddies you get ahold of.

At 8th level you'll take the Grappler feat. Now you have Sneak Attacks on anyone you're grappling, regardless of what anyone else is doing!

At 10th level you can increase your Strength or Constitution.

But 11th level is when this build really becomes nuts, thanks to Reliable Talent. Now that you effectively have a skill check floor of 10 on the die for any skill you're proficient in, your grapple checks will never be below a 22 again (23 if you bumped Str at 10), and will eventually cap out at a staggering minimum 27 by 17th level. On the same note, your minimum Stealth roll - even if you dumped Dex to a -1, even if you're wearing plate armor and have disadvantage on the roll - can never be below a 21 by 17th level.

[Setharious]

At 4th level you'll take the Heavily Armored feat. This bumps your Strength to +4, and lets you wear heavy armor, between which and your solid Con bonus, makes you much more able to stand up to the baddies you get ahold of.

At 8th level you'll take the Grappler feat. Now you have Sneak Attacks on anyone you're grappling, regardless of what anyone else is doing!

At 10th level you can increase your Strength or Constitution.

But 11th level is when this build really becomes nuts, thanks to Reliable Talent. Now that you effectively have a skill check floor of 10 on the die for any skill you're proficient in, your grapple checks will never be below a 22 again (23 if you bumped Str at 10), and will eventually cap out at a staggering minimum 27 by 17th level. On the same note, your minimum Stealth roll - even if you dumped Dex to a -1, even if you're wearing plate armor and have disadvantage on the roll - can never be below a 21 by 17th level.

This is all very wonderful. I like all of the concepts you mentioned, and would love to play with them all. Sadly when I make my builds, due to the DMs I play with, it feels like I rarely ever get over level six, causing me to aim for something cool to be happening closer to level 4. So if I were to follow this same kind of route, I would have to start with grappler at 4 instead of heavily armored, or go human, and take the medium armor feat instead of the heavy. Either way still prevents me from getting to that sweet +4 strength though. But again, if ever I know I will be able to reach 11th level, I do think this is an amazing path to take!