5E Transmute Rock (and other Wizard spells) are amazing for Construction

[Deathtongue]

Transmute Rock:
Wall of Stone, while convenient, leaves a lot to be desired as an actual piece of construction material. It's just way too fragile. 180 hps with an AC of 15? That baby is coming down in ten minutes, tops, by a few angry peasants with hammers.

But if you're considering Wall of Stone in your construction, you're a 9th level wizard or druid. And you have an alternative: Transmute Rock. Note that Transmute Rock allows you to target rock that's MUCH harder than Wall of Stone. Like granite. Or hematite if you're lucky.

The beauty of Transmute Rock to Mud is that as of Xanathars, it's permanent until dispelled. You can create a 40-foot cube of hematite mud, dig it out and put it on carts, then shape the mud however you want. Such as, say, into a wall. If you hurry, you can even use the Mold Earth cantrip to create the shapes you want and THEN dispel it. Bam, near-instant statue gallery. Or you can just use Fabricate if your DM is giving you grief and you're a wizard.

Transporting the mud might be a bit of a problem. However, you're a druid and/or a wizard. You can just summon workers. You can just create wagons. Do I need to draw you a diagram?

Mordenkainen's Mansion:
So you can't take things out of the mansion. But you can take stuff out of the mansion that you brought in, expose it to features of the mansion, and then take it out.

By the way, if a DM is nickle-and-diming you on some of these (i.e. if you copy a piece of fine art from the mansion onto your own canvas, the copy disappears), they should probably also make you die of asphyxiation as soon as you leave the mansion. FYI.

Create your own batch of rare cheeses by exposing your milk to certain cultures in the mansion.
Reproduce magnificent sculptures by making injection molds.
If you're in a ridiculous setting like Forgotten Realms, you can bottle your own soda pop with outside beverages or get plans for a washing machine.
Need some dry ice? No problem, have a basement full of CO2 canisters and make your own.

[Man_Over_Game]

Transmuters definitely make the best carpenters. Take a solid piece of stone, transmute it into wood, carve it however you like, and you end up with an immaculate stone statue.

You could even do something like using Transmute Rock with Move Earth, allowing you to reshape a 40ft. cube into virtually any shape you choose and then convert it back to rock.

I've always wanted to play a traveling gnomish architect transmuter, creating buildings as needed, and being a world renowned designer.

[Deathtongue]

Transmuters definitely make the best carpenters. Take a solid piece of stone, transmute it into wood, carve it however you like, and you end up with an immaculate stone statue.

I've always wanted to play a traveling gnomish architect transmuter, creating buildings as needed, and being a world renowned designer.Believe it or not, School of Transmutation wizards aren't very good at construction projects! Minor Alchemy isn't a really big help since it's a small volume and doesn't last long. It's an exhaustive list of what you can do with it, too, so you can't even create some wet etching acid.

Major Alchemy would be better, but it's too small and the 'equal or lesser value' part is way too broad. If I use True Polymorph to create a block of platinum, can I use Major Alchemy to transmute it into a brick of C4 explosive? Actually, can I use Major Alchemy to create a block of 6000'C lava? Lava is dirt cheap in value, so if I have a fancy desk I could be able to make it, right? Too ambiguous and, honestly, not really anything better than you can get out of True Polymorph and Creation.

The best wizards, strangely enough, at construction projects are Illusionist wizards. Malleable Illusions + Mirage Arcana = fully operational construction site. Imagine being able to put together any scaffolding you want -- you could even use Malleable Illusion to, say, create crude elevators by having stone spires raise and lower as you see fit.

[Unoriginal]

The issue with this is that hiring a caster to cast so many spell would end up costing much higher than just having normal employees do the job.

Not to mention that getting tons of muds into place hardly beat the ease of uses of the normal building methods.


You can just summon workers.

No you can't.



You can just create wagons.

No you can't.



Do I need to draw you a diagram?


No, but explaining which of the list of creatures that can be summoned would make adequate construction workers, given the lack of the required competency for most and the short duration of most summoning spells, would be helpful. Or how you're supposed

[Wizard_Lizard]

step aside picasso
we may not have your skillsbut we have magic rocks.

[Deathtongue]

The issue with this is that hiring a caster to cast so many spell would end up costing much higher than just having normal employees do the job.
No, it wouldn't. I'm honestly kind of flabbergasted by this response.

By FAR the longest and most tedious parts of stone construction are quarrying appropriate stone (especially if you want to work with something harder than sandstone), masoning with stone, and then doing fine shapes. You literally cut down castle construction projects from decades to months and only need a couple dozen unskilled workers once the parameters of the project changes from 'extract, move, reinforce, and shape rock' to 'extract, move, and shape mud'.

As far as your other rebuttals go:

1) Yes you can. You're a wizard, you have access to animate dead. They'll do what you tell them to do. They won't be able to do anything other than unskilled labor (like filling carts with mud, pulling carts full of mud, or patting down bricks of mud) but you don't need them to. It's a bit trickier for druids, admittedly. but they have at least 3 castings of Summon Woodland Creature/Conjure Minor Elemental. They'll think of something.

2) Yes you can. You're a wizard, you can have the Fabricate spell. Make a wooden wagon.

3) I'm breaking down the difficult parts of the construction (which would be, transporting the stone and shaping the stone) for your wizard. Creating a wall out of mud is much easier than making one out of rock, or bricks for that matter. You're a 9th-level wizard, you can cast Transmute Rock twice per day. When you get the mud in the shape you want (perhaps the DM sensibly rules you can't make stable structures out of mud more than 10 feet high) you cast Dispel Magic. The rest of it would just be organizing unskilled labor.

[Man_Over_Game]

Could an Unseen Servant be strong enough to push a cart?

[jh12]

Transmuters definitely make the best carpenters. Take a solid piece of stone, transmute it into wood, carve it however you like, and you end up with an immaculate stone statue.

Are master wood carvers really that more readily available than scupltors? I've seen many examples of stone statues that are far more intricate than anything I remember seeing carved out of wood. Plus, you lose sight of the original coloring and reflectivity when working with an entirely different material.


When you get the mud in the shape you want (perhaps the DM sensibly rules you can't make stable structures out of mud more than 10 feet high) you cast Dispel Magic.

The sensible DM should probably treat the slowly flowing mud like concrete (that doesn't set) and say you can't make any structures out of mud unless you have something containing it. Probably still easier than working with the stone directly, but not a magic bullet.

[Deathtongue]

Could an Unseen Servant be strong enough to push a cart?Afraid not. A cart is 200 lb., the maximum load an unseen servant can push is 60 pounds. While I think it'd be eminently reasonable to allow an unseen servant to push a wheeled cart, that'd only be if they were empty.

What you'd want is the Mount ritual. It doesn't tell you the strength of the horse you're using, but I think it'd be reasonable to say you're getting a draft horse. As for what four draft horses could pull:
https://modernfarmer.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/800px-Horses_pulling_sledge_loaded_with_logs_-_NARA_-_285199.jpg

If you ride along with the wagon and spend your time continually casting the 'Mount' ritual (allowing enough time for breaks, of course), you could have four horses pulling continually. Your undead crew could dash alongside you.

[Deathtongue]

The sensible DM should probably treat the slowly flowing mud like concrete (that doesn't set) and say you can't make any structures out of mud unless you have something containing it. Probably still easier than working with the stone directly, but not a magic bullet.The Mold Earth cantrip can shape and hold the mud in place long enough for you to cast Dispel Magic. Or, hell, you have the Mold Earth cantrip; you can make trenches and molds to pour the mud in yourself. If your DM is really giving you grief, you can use Fabricate to make wooden scaffolding -- which you probably want to do anyway if you want to have shapes more intricate than 'big block of rock'.

[Unoriginal]

No, it wouldn't.

Yes, it would. Sorry, but it's a fact. You don't seem to get how much magic services are worth.

Casting one lvl 1 spell can easily earn you enough money to hire 50 skilled craftsmen for one day. Even just counting the Dispel Magic to turn the mud back to stone, how many lvl 1 spells do you need to cast?

And Transmute Rock is a 5th level spell.

How many of those 40ft cubes you get from Transmute Rock do you need to make a building?



I'm honestly kind of flabbergasted by this response.

By FAR the longest and most tedious parts of stone construction are quarrying appropriate stone (especially if you want to work with something harder than sandstone), masoning with stone, and then doing fine shapes. You literally cut down castle construction projects from decades to months and only need a couple dozen unskilled workers once the parameters of the project changes from 'extract, move, reinforce, and shape rock' to 'extract, move, and shape mud'.

Oh yeah? How would you do all those things?

If you want to do that with mud, you'd need to transport the mud in appropriate containers, then have dozens of molds of the fine shapes to put the mud into. How do you get those molds? By casting more spells?

Hiring a caster to cast all those spells would costs thousands more gold than having workers cut stone.

And if you're a caster yourself, there are much easier ways to get a building. Like becoming rich by selling your services or adventuring and then paying people to build it, so you don't have to go through the hassle yourself.




1) Yes you can. You're a wizard, you have access to animate dead.

Animate Dead is not a summoning spell.



They'll do what you tell them to do. They won't be able to do anything other than unskilled labor (like filling carts with mud, pulling carts full of mud, or patting down bricks of mud) but you don't need them to.

You need to order them to do each task one-by-one, all the way.

And then you need all the logistic to make sure that you don't lose control over your undead. Oh, and you're evil, because only evil people regularly use spells that create undead.


It's a bit trickier for druids, admittedly. but they have at least 3 castings of Summon Woodland Creature/Conjure Minor Elemental. They'll think of something.

How would 3 castings of Summon Woodland Beings/Conjure Minor Elemental accomplish anything you said? A few hours of beings of either categories wouldn't amount to much.



2) Yes you can. You're a wizard, you can have the Fabricate spell. Make a wooden wagon.

Fabricate only works on one raw material at a time, a wagon made for transporting mud can't be made solely with wood. And you'd need the wood in the first place, not to mention you'd need to know how to create a wagon in the first place.

So no, you can't "just create a wagon".

Also, again, Fabricate is a 4th level spell. Using it to build wagons or even habitations is a waste of its worth.


Creating a wall out of mud is much easier than making one out of rock, or bricks for that matter.

No, it is not. Mud is semi-liquid and is difficult to pile up into anything resembling a castle's wall. Even the real life peoples who use mud as building material don't do much than frail hut walls with it, and only in places where it can dry quickly.



You're a 9th-level wizard, you can cast Transmute Rock twice per day. When you get the mud in the shape you want (perhaps the DM sensibly rules you can't make stable structures out of mud more than 10 feet high) you cast Dispel Magic. The rest of it would just be organizing unskilled labor.

And then dealing that you have a crude 10ft high pile-of-mud shaped stone, cruder than any stone wall, without foundations or architectural features that make walls works as the basis for buildings.

[Man_Over_Game]

Are master wood carvers really that more readily available than scupltors? I've seen many examples of stone statues that are far more intricate than anything I remember seeing carved out of wood. Plus, you lose sight of the original coloring and reflectivity when working with an entirely different material.

The difference is time and skill required. I'd be able to implement intricate designs I wouldn't be able to with stone in the same amount of time. I can also work with wood, stone, iron, copper, or silver, using the special properties of each. For example, silver and copper are extremely malleable; you could make a wire design from stone>silver, and then have a unique stone sculpture that'd be impossible to duplicate without magic.

We also don't know exactly the properties of how transmuting things works. If I burn wood, that was originally stone, what happens to the ash? What happens if you make bronze from transmuted copper?

[JackPhoenix]

1) Yes you can. You're a wizard, you have access to animate dead. They'll do what you tell them to do. They won't be able to do anything other than unskilled labor (like filling carts with mud, pulling carts full of mud, or patting down bricks of mud) but you don't need them to. It's a bit trickier for druids, admittedly. but they have at least 3 castings of Summon Woodland Creature/Conjure Minor Elemental. They'll think of something.

They are even worse than unskilled workers, because the workers can at least think for themselves. Undead require constant supervising. Hire 10 workers, and they can do 10 different things. Create 10 undead, and you have to watch over them constantly. If there's any problem, they can't react to it. Plus, you know, creating evil, murderous monsters.


2) Yes you can. You're a wizard, you can have the Fabricate spell. Make a wooden wagon.

Assuming you have appropriate proficiencies. And it will be pretty small wagon. It's got metal parts, so it has to fit into 5' cube.

Edit: also: Wagon? 35 gp, so it takes 7 days for a single carpenter to make one. That's 14 gp for work, 17.5 gp for raw material. With magic, you presumably pay the same for material, and how much does the spellcaster want?


Could an Unseen Servant be strong enough to push a cart?

Unless it's very light and empty cart, it's too weak. PHB cart weights 200 lb. US has str 2, and can move 30 lb, or push double that.

[Deathtongue]

Yes, it would. Sorry, but it's a fact.

Explain yourself.




If you want to do that with mud, you'd need to transport the mud in appropriate containers, then have dozens of molds of the fine shapes to put the mud into. How do you get those molds? By casting more spells?Seriously, are you nickle and diming me over holding mud in a cart? Transporting mud seemed like such an obvious part of the plan it didn't need to be elaborated on. Okay, just to humor you: carts and wagons often have these things in them called 'walls', or if you want to be technical they're called 'box boards'. They prevent the contents from spilling out, especially loose piles of contents like apples and manure.


Hiring a caster to cast all those spells would costs thousands more gold than having workers cut stone. You don't seem to get how much magic services are worth.Yes, PER DAY hiring a caster would cost more. But you'd get your project done in months, rather than in decades. Maybe even faster, depending on what level the caster was at exactly. If I was hiring a 17th-level Illusionist who had access to all of the crazy wizard tricks like True Polymorph and Wish, I could get something like the Alnwick castle built out of hematite in a month. But this thought exercise assumes a 9th-level wizard, which are presumably more common.


And if you're a caster yourself, there are much easier ways to get a building. Like becoming rich by selling your services or adventuring and then paying people to build it, so you don't have to go through the hassle yourself.I don't want a castle in 25 years, which is how long it would take to make it with real-world material. I want a castle in three months. If I needed a castle in two weeks I'd have Wall of Stone, but I want the castle to actually be able to take a pounding, which Wall of Stone fortifications are bad at.



Animate Dead is not a summoning spell.Who cares? That's not the important part. The important part is that you have access to free labor.


And then you need all the logistic to make sure that you don't lose control over your undead. Oh, and you're evil, because only evil people regularly use spells that create undead.Ha ha, we'll just leave this one to one side for now.


Fabricate only works on one raw material at a time, a wagon can't be made solely with wood.What do you mean, can't be made solely with wood? Wagons are literally dozens of centuries old, well before the iron age. Most of them were made completely out of wood. A lot of them still are. Because even an all-wood wagon can carry literal tons of goods. And if you're making a long-distance journey, repairing wooden wagon parts are easier than repairing iron parts.


And you'd need the wood in the first place, not to mention you'd need to know how to create a wagon in the first place.Are you seriously nickle-and-diming me over WOOD? And anyway, fabricate lets you make an all-wooden bridge, a wagon isn't a much more complicated structure. And if you're a wizard that has enough proficiency to create castles, you should have the know-how to make a wagon.


Also, again, Fabricat is a 4th level spell. Using it to build wagons or even habitations is a waste of its worth.So what? Do you have a better way to transport materials long distances that doesn't require using higher-level spells? I can think of quite a few, but none that are also available to 9th-level wizards.


No, it is not. Mud is semi-liquid and is difficult to pile up into anything resembling a castle's wall.
See above responses to jh12.


And then dealing that you have a crude 10ft high pile-of-mud shaped stone, cruder than any stone wall, without foundations or architectural features that make walls works as the basis for buildings.Are you kidding me? An all-rock high pile of rock is MUCH stronger than an typical artificial wall that has foundations and structures. Because it is a uniform block of material.

[jh12]

The Mold Earth cantrip can shape and hold the mud in place long enough for you to cast Dispel Magic. Or, hell, you have the Mold Earth cantrip; you can make trenches and molds to pour the mud in yourself. If your DM is really giving you grief, you can use Fabricate to make wooden scaffolding -- which you probably want to do anyway if you want to have shapes more intricate than 'big block of rock'.

We must be looking at different versions of the cantrip, because the one I'm looking at wouldn't work at all.




You choose a portion of dirt or stone that you can see within range and that fits within a 5-foot cube. You manipulate it in one of the following ways:

If you target an area of loose earth, you can instantaneously excavate it, move it along the ground, and deposit it up to 5 feet away. This movement doesn’t have enough force to cause damage.

You cause shapes, colors, or both to appear on the dirt or stone, spelling out words, creating images, or shaping patterns. The changes last for 1 hour.

If the dirt or stone you target is on the ground, you cause it to become difficult terrain. Alternatively, you can cause the ground to become normal terrain if it is already difficult terrain. This change lasts for 1 hour.

If you cast this spell multiple times, you can have no more than two of its non-instantaneous effects active at a time, and you can dismiss such an effect as an action.

Nothing in that lets you shape the dirt, certainly not enough to work as a wall. It would help with the excavation though.

[Unoriginal]

Explain yourself.

I already have. You might have missed my edit.



Seriously, are you nickle and diming me over holding mud in a cart? Transporting mud seemed like such an obvious part of the plan it didn't need to be elaborated on. Okay, just to humor you: carts and wagons often have these things in them called 'walls', or if you want to be technical they're called 'box boards'. They prevent the contents from spilling out, especially loose piles of contents like apples and manure.

How many spilling-proof wagons would you need for one 40ft cube of mud?



Yes, PER DAY hiring a caster would cost more.

No. 50gp is how much you pay to cast ONE first level spell ONCE. How many Dispel Magic would you need to cast for your building?

How many 5th level spells (or 4th, if you want to use Fabricate too) would you need to cast for the same building?




Who cares? That's not the important part. The important part is that you have access to free labor.[QUOTE=Deathtongue;23901746]

Free, inefficient labor you must supervise at each step of the process.

[QUOTE=Deathtongue;23901746]
What do you mean, can't be made solely with wood? Wagons are literally dozens of centuries old, well before the iron age.

Humanity knew how to use metals well before the iron age.



Most of them were made completely out of wood.

Do you have any source on this?



Are you seriously nickle-and-diming me over WOOD?

All that wood needs to be cut, gathered and prepared to serve as crafting material. It doesn't magically appears ready to use without someone's intervention.


And anyway, fabricate lets you make an all-wooden bridge, a wagon isn't a much more complicated structure.

A wheeled vehicle is more complicated than a bridge by a good margin.


And if you're a wizard that has enough proficiency to create castles, you should have the know-how to make a wagon.

Fair, I suppose.



So what? Do you have a better way to transport materials long distances that doesn't require using higher-level spells?

No. And that's my point. You're declaring it's easier than it'd actually be so you can say the wizard is amazing at construction.



See above responses to jh12.

See jh12's answer to that.

[QUOTE=Deathtongue;23901746]
An all-rock high pile of rock is MUCH stronger than an typical artificial wall that has foundations and structures. Because it is a uniform block of material.

Being stronger doesn't mean it's a better piece of construction. There's more reasons why people abandoned cyclopean architecture than "it was hard to move the stones".

[jh12]

Are you kidding me? An all-rock high pile of rock is MUCH stronger than an typical artificial wall that has foundations and structures. Because it is a uniform block of material.

I certainly hope this isn't how your wizard thinks, or the whole thing will come crashing down like a sandcastle made of sand. Magic will make the wizard a good crane and excavator, but it won't make him a decent engineer or stone mason.

[MaxWilson]

Transmute Rock:
Wall of Stone, while convenient, leaves a lot to be desired as an actual piece of construction material. It's just way too fragile. 180 hps with an AC of 15? That baby is coming down in ten minutes, tops, by a few angry peasants with hammers.

But if you're considering Wall of Stone in your construction, you're a 9th level wizard or druid. And you have an alternative: Transmute Rock. Note that Transmute Rock allows you to target rock that's MUCH harder than Wall of Stone. Like granite. Or hematite if you're lucky.

The beauty of Transmute Rock to Mud is that as of Xanathars, it's permanent until dispelled. You can create a 40-foot cube of hematite mud, dig it out and put it on carts, then shape the mud however you want. Such as, say, into a wall. If you hurry, you can even use the Mold Earth cantrip to create the shapes you want and THEN dispel it. Bam, near-instant statue gallery. Or you can just use Fabricate if your DM is giving you grief and you're a wizard.

Transporting the mud might be a bit of a problem. However, you're a druid and/or a wizard. You can just summon workers. You can just create wagons. Do I need to draw you a diagram?
*snip*


Excellent point. Thanks for posting.

P.S.


Are you kidding me? An all-rock high pile of rock is MUCH stronger than an typical artificial wall that has foundations and structures. Because it is a uniform block of material.

Can you elaborate? I don't know much about how walls are structured or what makes them strong or weak; you sound like you are more familiar with construction technology than I am. What makes a regular wall weaker than a uniform pile or rock? I've been told that rebar makes reinforced concrete stronger than either concrete or iron by itself--does a similar logic not apply to walls? Why or why not?

If you could sketch out a few sentences explaining I'd be interested.

[Sigreid]

An easy think you can do for defense is use wall of stone to create two concentric rings. Use shape earth to fill in the gap between them and then cap it with more walls of stone.

Depending on the size you go for it could take many, many castings of wall of stone with may well take a very long time, but you could create a barrier that is for all intents and purposes an impenetrable barrier.

As a DM I would require knowledge of masonry and possibly carpentry for anything much more complex as it's not just getting the material into place, a much bigger challenge is ensuring that you have the right supports to support the weight of the structure you built.

[Yunru]

True Victory is using True Polymorph to build a house out of your enemies.

[Galithar]

Early wagon wheel were made of wood with rawhide used to bind them together. When applied wet the rawhide dries it tightens and pulls things together like a clamp.

I have no evidence that there were entire wagons made in this fashion, though with the wheel being the most difficult part it seems likely possible, even if not done historically. The fully wooden wagon would need more maintenance (leather washers that would need to be kept lubricated on the axle for example) but is definitely plausible to make.

In game mechanically I would require some carpentry proficiency to be able to pull this off. The wood pieces would need to be perfect, and with magic as long as you know what you're trying to make and understand it that's easily doable.

The wagon is the smallest issue.

Also the 'cost' of casting spells is if you're purchasing this from someone else. These cost the caster nothing to do. And if the right Lord wants something built faster then conventional means you would be well funded and fully capable of doing it for them. If not summons can definitely handle the mundane tasks you would need. I would use ritual cast unseen servants personally. You don't need them to lift that much at a time as you're moving it in mud form. One wooden bucket of mud can be lifted and carried. By the unseen servant. You simply say "bucket this mud to that place that's within 60 feet of me" and they go about it until all of it is moved. You continually ritual cast them (at no cost) soon that after an hour and 10 minutes you have 6 servants working constantly until the job is done. Commanding them is a bonus action that shouldn't even interrupt your ritual casting as it wouldn't break concentration.

If you need more muscle then other summons would work, but possibly be less efficient in the managing asoect. As they may need individual commands. Which wouldn't be an issue because you can easily supervise. No one said there wizard wasn't going to be there working with them after all.

As for structure, you don't need as much structural support when talking about solid stone. A solid stone wall can stand on it's own adding support only for floors and ceilings. The supports you would need could be told to you by someone else when needed. I'm assuming this proposed Wizard had a party? Maybe a Dwarf Cleric? Or as stated can sell their services once or twice and hire a master stone Mason advisor.

Why would you assume no foundation? Did I miss the is where traditional building practice would be ignored? I would start by using mold earth to clear the area for a foundation. Pour however much mud is needed to fill it and then dispell. I now have a single slab stone foundation, which would be stronger then concrete. If you want to get fancy with it you could always 'experiment' and learn to use rebar, but now we're upping the technology level and adding the costs of iron in, so let's skip that. The idea was to use something very strong, like granite. Now this of course is dependant on a significant deposit from which to gather your materials, but it's a better construction material if it was ever realistic to use. With magic it is.

So assuming access to Granite you would need fewer supports because its compression and tensile strengths far exceed concrete. Nearly 4 times that of concrete. For advanced construction note that the spell specifies 'an area of stone or mud that you can see that fits within a 40-foot cube' meaning we don't have to do the whole 40 foot cube if we don't want to. The after each added wall you transmute a portion to (DM permitting) remove the seam, or (DM more reasonable call) stagger the seams to increase strength, much like a brick wall to prevent stress on the mortar seams. This would take a lot of castings and a lot of dispels, but would increase the overall strength. Remember that if you WERE to find a full 40 foot cube of granite that's 64,000 cubic feet of mud in one go. Or 6,400 feet of one foot thick ten foot tall walls. Assume a whopping 4,000 cubic foot loss in transport and you still have enough to make a decent sized fortress in one go.
With my proposed loss that would be enough for 15 20 by 20 foot rooms (that somehow share no walls because I don't want to calculate increased yield from shared walls, though you could reasonably say the shared walls gives you enough for your foundation I'd think) And I'm pretty confident that a 20 foot square room (outer dimensions of wall, 18 foot on the interior) of granite would be self supporting.

Would it take some knowledge? Yes. Would the knowledge required be outside the capabilities of a 9th level wizard with some wood/stone working in their background? Absolutely not.

[Ventruenox]

Instead of building up, dig down.

Tongues -> Geas -> Umber Hulk. Two spells for 30 days of labor from a creature with the Tunneling trait. Good luck with the encounter, though.

[Chronos]

The hiring cost is irrelevant, because you can't play an army of hundreds of laborers, but you can play a wizard. And you can only sell out your spellcasting services for the money to hire the laborers if you can find a market: Spells would be very much a luxury commodity, at those prices.

[Cybren]

Afraid not. A cart is 200 lb., the maximum load an unseen servant can push is 60 pounds. While I think it'd be eminently reasonable to allow an unseen servant to push a wheeled cart, that'd only be if they were empty.

What you'd want is the Mount ritual. It doesn't tell you the strength of the horse you're using, but I think it'd be reasonable to say you're getting a draft horse. As for what four draft horses could pull:
https://modernfarmer.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/800px-Horses_pulling_sledge_loaded_with_logs_-_NARA_-_285199.jpg

If you ride along with the wagon and spend your time continually casting the 'Mount' ritual (allowing enough time for breaks, of course), you could have four horses pulling continually. Your undead crew could dash alongside you.

What’s the resistive force of a 200lb wheeled cart because im pretty sure the purpose of wheels is to make it less than 200lbs

[JackPhoenix]

What’s the resistive force of a 200lb wheeled cart because im pretty sure the purpose of wheels is to make it less than 200lbs

Doesn't matter, because 5e rules don't care about that.

[jh12]

I would use ritual cast unseen servants personally. You don't need them to lift that much at a time as you're moving it in mud form. One wooden bucket of mud can be lifted and carried. By the unseen servant. You simply say "bucket this mud to that place that's within 60 feet of me" and they go about it until all of it is moved. You continually ritual cast them (at no cost) soon that after an hour and 10 minutes you have 6 servants working constantly until the job is done. Commanding them is a bonus action that shouldn't even interrupt your ritual casting as it wouldn't break concentration.

Trying to have the wizard do everything entirely destroys the division of labor. Even assuming they could complete a trip in a minute, which seems absurdly fast, and working 18 hours a day with no breaks, which seems unrealistic on the wizards part, it would take about 6 months for your 6 Unseen Servants to load the 64,000 cubic feet of mud into the wagons. While the wizard is exhausting himself supervising the quarrying process (is that really the best use of a 9th level wizard), nothing is happening at the construction site because the wizard is away. And if you plan on using the Unseen Servants at the jobsite to place the mud, the process will be similarly slow (and the 60 foot restriction is more likely to be an issue).

Transportation is going to be an issue either way, but there's almost certainly not going to be a meaningful benefit from the wizard's magic. Assuming four draft horses are pulling each wagon, it will take about 2,800 wagon loads to transport the mud. There's no realistic way to have a 2,800 wagon train, so the wagons will have to be able to make multiple trips while the wizard is supervising the loading. Fabricate would let you make wagons with solid wooden wheels if you have enough wood, but that's a 4th level spell and a 9th level wizard only gets 3 of those a day (4 with the upcast) and those are very unreliable wheels. So even before he begins the six months of loading the mud, he's going to have to spend several weeks making wagons.

And where are the horses and drivers coming from?


As for structure, you don't need as much structural support when talking about solid stone. A solid stone wall can stand on it's own adding support only for floors and ceilings.

A solid stone wall can also collapse under its own weight or fall over if not designed and constructed properly, just like any other wall.


Why would you assume no foundation? Did I miss the is where traditional building practice would be ignored?

I don't know. It was the magic-advocate who said that stone walls with no foundation were stronger than other walls with foundations. I agree with you, somebody with all of the same knowledge that it would take to build a regular castle would have to be involved in constructing it magically.


So assuming access to Granite you would need fewer supports because its compression and tensile strengths far exceed concrete. Nearly 4 times that of concrete.

Neither granite nor concrete have set compression and tensile strengths. Granite because it's a natural product whose strength depends on factors like composition, weathering, and veining, and concrete because it's an engineered product whose strength is entirely dependent on the mix design.

[Chronos]

Oh, as for making walls out of mud: Use some other Wall spell, possibly a temporary one, to make forms to pour the mud into, like we do now with concrete.

[Sigreid]

I think if you get regular masons you could use wall of stone, layered to create the stone for them to cut into what they need. This could significantly cut quarrying and transportation time. You'd probably want to calculate at least roughly how much stone you would need and have a substantial stock of stone slabs waiting for them when they got there.

Also, you don't want solid stone structures. Thousands of years of history have shown that it's the structures with plenty of give for movement that stand the test of time.

[jh12]

I think if you get regular masons you could use wall of stone, layered to create the stone for them to cut into what they need. This could significantly cut quarrying and transportation time. You'd probably want to calculate at least roughly how much stone you would need and have a substantial stock of stone slabs waiting for them when they got there.

Also, you don't want solid stone structures. Thousands of years of history have shown that it's the structures with plenty of give for movement that stand the test of time.

Where the wizard could make his money is just a quarry operator using regular workers (it's okay to share some of the profits). Make wooden forms in a variety of the sizes and shapes that masons typically use, mudify the rock, put the mud in the forms, turn the mud back into rock, strip the forms, and presto, precast stone blocks of just the right size and shape in stock and ready to ship for your castle construction needs. Custom sizes and shapes are available--you only pay extra for the cost of the forms.

That would almost certainly be more efficient than a standard quarry operation. Of course, the mason's guilds might not appreciate it too much. And if the local crime syndicate happened to have their fingers in the pie, that could be a problems.

[Sigreid]

Where the wizard could make his money is just a quarry operator using regular workers (it's okay to share some of the profits). Make wooden forms in a variety of the sizes and shapes that masons typically use, mudify the rock, put the mud in the forms, turn the mud back into rock, strip the forms, and presto, precast stone blocks of just the right size and shape in stock and ready to ship for your castle construction needs. Custom sizes and shapes are available--you only pay extra for the cost of the forms.

That would almost certainly be more efficient than a standard quarry operation. Of course, the mason's guilds might not appreciate it too much. And if the local crime syndicate happened to have their fingers in the pie, that could be a problems.

That's another valid method. And if the stone starts getting hard to find in the area you're in, just pack everything up and move.

[Mellack]

Also the 'cost' of casting spells is if you're purchasing this from someone else. These cost the caster nothing to do. And if the right Lord wants something built faster then conventional means you would be well funded and fully capable of doing it for them. If not summons can definitely handle the mundane tasks you would need. I would use ritual cast unseen servants personally. You don't need them to lift that much at a time as you're moving it in mud form. One wooden bucket of mud can be lifted and carried. By the unseen servant. You simply say "bucket this mud to that place that's within 60 feet of me" and they go about it until all of it is moved. You continually ritual cast them (at no cost) soon that after an hour and 10 minutes you have 6 servants working constantly until the job is done. Commanding them is a bonus action that shouldn't even interrupt your ritual casting as it wouldn't break concentration.


This would be a colossal waste of a wizard. Unseen servant only has a strength of 2. That means five of them only can carry as much as a single STR 10 commoner. Hiring just two unskilled commoners will get the work done faster, with no range restriction, without constant supervision, and at a cost of just 4 sp per day. To give that a comparison, you can hire 5 unskilled workers for the same cost as just the modest living expenses for the wizard each day.

I agree that the most efficient way is not to try to build with magic at all. Use those transmute spells to shape rock "bricks" quickly and then construct normally using those.

[Unoriginal]

Building a small castle or a keep the normal way cost 50,000 gp and takes 400 days.

I'd like the calculations that indicates a wizard can do better.

[Sigreid]

Building a small castle or a keep the normal way cost 50,000 gp and takes 400 days.

I'd like the calculations that indicates a wizard can do better.

Well, there is casting mighty fortress once per week and calling it good.

[JackPhoenix]

Building a small castle or a keep the normal way cost 50,000 gp and takes 400 days.

I'd like the calculations that indicates a wizard can do better.

If we apply crafting rules to that, to get 50k gp worth of work done in 400 days, you need 25 workers. 50 workers if the 50k is the cost of the raw material instead of the final product. It is unclear if the worker salary is included in te total cost.

And you need double that (50 trained and 50 untrained workers tu RUN the castle afterwards in addition to 100 gp/day maintenance cost.

Not an answer to the question, but just some more information.

[Galithar]

Building a small castle or a keep the normal way cost 50,000 gp and takes 400 days.

I'd like the calculations that indicates a wizard can do better.

Define the size (in square footage) considered to be a small keep.

[Unoriginal]

It is unclear if the worker salary is included in te total cost.

It is included.


Well, there is casting mighty fortress once per week and calling it good.

Fair, a 9th level wizard.


Define the size (in square footage) considered to be a small keep.

Well, using the Chateau de Langeais (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ch%C3%A2teau_de_Langeais) as example, it's be:


the stone tower is 16 metres (52 ft) high, 17.5m wide, and 10m long with walls averaging 1.5m. The walls contain 1,200 cubic metres (42,000 cu ft) of stone and have a total surface (both inside and out) of 1,600 square metres (17,000 sq ft). [...] The wall enclosing the keep stretched for some 250 m (820 ft)

Note it's "a small castle or a keep", not a small keep.

Granted, the Chateau took far longer than 400 days to make, but it's just the size reference. D&D is fantasy, castles are bigger and easier to make.

[Dalebert]

A 14th level illusionist could create molds up to 15x15x15 ft in size with a Silent Image and then making it real for a minute. Might be just enough time to get the mud into the mold and cast Dispel Magic.

EDIT: OR... they could cast Creation. They can alter the creation into different things for the duration so it could be come different molds as needed. Then they can just turn it into something small an move it for the next mold. It wouldn't be good for really big molds though. I think creation is limited to 5x5x5 ft.

[Galithar]

It is included.



Fair, a 9th level wizard.



Well, using the Chateau de Langeais (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ch%C3%A2teau_de_Langeais) as example, it's be:


Note it's "a small castle or a keep", not a small keep.

Granted, the Chateau took far longer than 400 days to make, but it's just the size reference. D&D is fantasy, castles are bigger and easier to make.

So just to ball park it try to cost of 50 unskilled laborers for 21 days (putting mud in wagons and moving it to the site, if they can make the castle by hand in 400 days they are probably technically moving the material faster & building faster then close to possible in the real world, so that seems like more then enough time. I'm trying to be more reasonable.) Add in the cost of 10 wagons, I'll just straight buy them for this purpose. I'll also need wood for the frame. Let's ball park that at 10,000 gold and 21 days for 15 skilled workers for them to construct my frame. This is the same 21 days used to get the mud on site mind you. Another 14 days of the unskilled workers to get the mud into the form. Cast dispell, another 7 days of unskilled workers removing the frames.


I'm AFB so I can't do the math. I'm at 42 days, would you be so kind as to calculate my gold cost and then tell me what parts you think are unreasonable? I'm just pulling numbers out of nowhere right now, but we can polish this up to find the cost/benefit of using magic versus traditional construction.

[PhoenixPhyre]

So just to ball park it try to cost of 50 unskilled laborers for 21 days (putting mud in wagons and moving it to the site, if they can make the castle by hand in 400 days they are probably technically moving the material faster & building faster then close to possible in the real world, so that seems like more then enough time. I'm trying to be more reasonable.) Add in the cost of 10 wagons, I'll just straight buy them for this purpose. I'll also need wood for the frame. Let's ball park that at 10,000 gold and 21 days for 15 skilled workers for them to construct my frame. This is the same 21 days used to get the mud on site mind you. Another 14 days of the unskilled workers to get the mud into the form. Cast dispell, another 7 days of unskilled workers removing the frames.


I'm AFB so I can't do the math. I'm at 42 days, would you be so kind as to calculate my gold cost and then tell me what parts you think are unreasonable? I'm just pulling numbers out of nowhere right now, but we can polish this up to find the cost/benefit of using magic versus traditional construction.

I think you drastically underestimate the logistics of this process. You're talking about making a single, mud-tight, multi-story form. Two of them in fact, one outer and one inner. And it has to hold a tremendous amount of pressure--a 30' tall wall of mud (assuming a density 2x that of water) creates a pressure at the bottom of 2 atmospheres. That's enough to pose significant technical problems when it's pushing against the flat section of a board. You're looking at needing support beams every few inches. And that's going to get expensive and time-consuming fast.

Plus, how are you loading the mud into the form? You can't build it progressively, and by the time you're at the top you have to lift the last mud up 30'. That's a lot of buckets, plus making sure you don't have air pockets (which would totally ruin the whole thing.

A "standard", block-built structure doesn't have any of these problems. It provides its own primary support, and you only need to build light frameworks for the people and a few blocks at a time, not holding the weight of the entire wall at once. You can also do it piecemeal, something you don't have the option for with your approach. You have to have all the mud on hand at once, all together. Otherwise you have pieces that don't meld together and have massive weaknesses.

This is indicative of why people think magic is so much more versatile. They assume the worst about mundane methods and go pie-in-the-sky for magical ones.

[Unoriginal]

So just to ball park it try to cost of 50 unskilled laborers for 21 days (putting mud in wagons and moving it to the site, if they can make the castle by hand in 400 days they are probably technically moving the material faster & building faster then close to possible in the real world, so that seems like more then enough time. I'm trying to be more reasonable.) Add in the cost of 10 wagons, I'll just straight buy them for this purpose. I'll also need wood for the frame. Let's ball park that at 10,000 gold and 21 days for 15 skilled workers for them to construct my frame. This is the same 21 days used to get the mud on site mind you. Another 14 days of the unskilled workers to get the mud into the form. Cast dispell, another 7 days of unskilled workers removing the frames.


I'm AFB so I can't do the math. I'm at 42 days, would you be so kind as to calculate my gold cost and then tell me what parts you think are unreasonable? I'm just pulling numbers out of nowhere right now, but we can polish this up to find the cost/benefit of using magic versus traditional construction.

Well so far you are at:

Unskilled laborers (total gold): (0.1*((50*21)+(50*14)+(50*7))= 210.

Skilled laborers: (1*(21*15))= 315

Wagons: (10*35)= 350

Draft horses (2 per wagons): (20*50)= 800

Wood: 10'000

So so far you'd be at 16'075 gps, if your numbers were accurate.

However, given that you'd need to fit 42000 cubic feet of mud into 10 wagons, it means that even using your 10 wagons you'd need to carry 4200 cubic feet per wagon (in total, over the course of the work). Two draft horses can pull 2160 lbs. 4200 cubic feet of granite weight 705 573.3 lbs, meaning you'd need each of your wagons to do 326.65 travels to transport the mud, assuming no spilling.

You gave a timespan of 21 days to get the mud on site. It means that your wagons would need to make 15.5 travels a day, or in other words do the whole "get fully loaded, travel, get fully unloaded, travel back" routine once 1h10, approximately, assuming a 18h work day without interruption or anything to slow the process down. I don't think 50 unskilled laborers would be nearly enough to fully load and unload 10 wagons with more than 2000 lbs of granite mud each every ~1h10, and then you have the travel distance to take into account.

What distance between the mud pit and the building site would you judge to be reasonable?

There are additional issues I haven't calculated yet, but so far that's the one I calculated.

[Galithar]

Well so far you are at:

Unskilled laborers (total gold): (0.1*((50*21)+(50*14)+(50*7))= 210.

Skilled laborers: (1*(21*15))= 315

Wagons: (10*35)= 350

Draft horses (2 per wagons): (20*50)= 800

Wood: 10'000

So so far you'd be at 16'075 gps, if your numbers were accurate.

However, given that you'd need to fit 42000 cubic feet of mud into 10 wagons, it means that even using your 10 wagons you'd need to carry 4200 cubic feet per wagon (in total, over the course of the work). Two draft horses can pull 2160 lbs. 4200 cubic feet of granite weight 705 573.3 lbs, meaning you'd need each of your wagons to do 326.65 travels to transport the mud, assuming no spilling.

You gave a timespan of 21 days to get the mud on site. It means that your wagons would need to make 15.5 travels a day, or in other words do the whole "get fully loaded, travel, get fully unloaded, travel back" routine once 1h10, approximately, assuming a 18h work day without interruption or anything to slow the process down. I don't think 50 unskilled laborers would be nearly enough to fully load and unload 10 wagons with more than 2000 lbs of granite mud each every ~1h10, and then you have the travel distance to take into account.

What distance between the mud pit and the building site would you judge to be reasonable?

There are additional issues I haven't calculated yet, but so far that's the one I calculated.

Fair enough. Let's up my timing as it is a bit short, but also remember that the base we are comparing to isn't realistic either, so take that into account.

Let's go all out though and make it two trips per wagon per day. 10 people working each wagon.

Now our mud to site time (rounding up) is 170 days.
And for funsies let's make the frame up time up to half that, so 85 days. Same number of workers. And their will always be enough frame for the dropped off mud to be deposited immediately.
And the deframing time to 30 days. A grand total of 200 days, or half the original construction time.

All the complaining about 'making the frame' drastically overestimate the complexity of such a thing. It's basically a fence with no space between the boards, and I accounted 10,000 gold for it's construction... You'll find that to be drastically over priced if you want to break it down I think. The 'difficulty' in making it with is accounted for by using skilled laborers for this portion. If I have to explain how to make a wall/fence hold in mud I have no interest in continuing this thought exercise. The mud is obviously of a decent viscosity to slow someone's movement through it by do much.

And by the way I'm not saying magic is definitely superior. I said it's POSSIBLE and likely superior in some ways (mostly time of construction), I never stated it's fully superior in all ways. I am working with (mostly Unoriginal) to calculate in what ways it could be superior.

Also I'm only using 2 spells in my process. The original transmutation and the dispell. Adding in the use of other spells I could speed this up. (Mold Earth I believe is a cantrip that could very quickly load my wagons, but I'm choosing to use 10 workers instead) also assume 4 draft horses per wagon. So 40 draft horses and their feed for the 170 days. I'm doing this to prevent exhausting them. Still 2 per wagon, but each makes only one trip per day.

If we could recalculate (I'd do it myself but I'm on break at work, I'll stay going by own calculations at home later) and give me the next hurdle I'll see what I can come up with and try to stay under budget :P

The travel distance is to be kept pretty low, just as the 400 day castle would have to have supplies basically on site in order to construct at the rate.

Edit: you can build the form progressively. You start with supports at the height the finish and add boards on as you go up. Filling each 'layer' as you go.

I believe my unskilled worker cost just went to 1000 gold and the skilled to 1,275?

I'm still doing fine budget wise. So I have room to overcome the next hurdle.

[jh12]

The 'difficulty' in making it with is accounted for by using skilled laborers for this portion. If I have to explain how to make a wall/fence hold in mud I have no interest in continuing this thought exercise.

I guess all those form work engineers out there wasted their time getting engineering degrees and professional licenses. If only someone had told them that it's just like building a fence.


This is indicative of why people think magic is so much more versatile. They assume the worst about mundane methods and go pie-in-the-sky for magical ones.

Yup.

[PhoenixPhyre]

I guess all those form work engineers out there wasted their time getting engineering degrees and professional licenses. If only someone had told them that it's just like building a fence.


Yeah. It's not a fence, it's a ship you're building. Except vertical, and not floating. That's decidedly not easy.

@Galithar
There's a reason most concrete is poured horizontally in sections, not as a whole building all at once. Doing it this way gives you one shot--if anything goes wrong, the whole thing comes crashing down and you have to start from scratch. And you won't know until you remove the forms. Someone left a nice air bubble? Oops, your whole castle is now an egg-shell. Got some foreign matter in there (ie non-mud)? It won't transmute cleanly, leaving major cracks.

You can use transmute rock to speed things up, but as @jh12 said said you'd be much better off using it to mold "bricks" of rock, all of the exact right size and shape. Basically pre-fab castle kits. Those would be moved and assembled as usual, saving considerable time and making a stronger structure (because the "bricks" fit together with less mortar).

[Chronos]

What this trick is doing, effectively, is letting you build using concrete instead of solid stone. Almost all modern masonry construction is concrete instead of stone. Why do you suppose that is? Don't you think it might have some advantages?

[PhoenixPhyre]

What this trick is doing, effectively, is letting you build using concrete instead of solid stone. Almost all modern masonry construction is concrete instead of stone. Why do you suppose that is? Don't you think it might have some advantages?

Modern concrete buildings are not poured in a single go. Most are prefabricated in slabs, blocks, and sections and shipped in. Which you can do with stone. In our world, stone suitable for building is rare and not located nearby. Concrete can be shipped in across large areas (in the dry form). The proposed technique has all the disadvantages of both techniques.

[Unoriginal]

What this trick is doing, effectively, is letting you build using concrete instead of solid stone. Almost all modern masonry construction is concrete instead of stone. Why do you suppose that is? Don't you think it might have some advantages?

Modern masonry construction involves separate sections of concrete supported by a steel frame or similar. Or a layer of concrete over bricks or similar parts with empty space in them, still supported by a frame.

Not 100% concrete poured into a mold for a whole building, after which the mold is removed.

[Segev]

Where the wizard could make his money is just a quarry operator using regular workers (it's okay to share some of the profits). Make wooden forms in a variety of the sizes and shapes that masons typically use, mudify the rock, put the mud in the forms, turn the mud back into rock, strip the forms, and presto, precast stone blocks of just the right size and shape in stock and ready to ship for your castle construction needs. Custom sizes and shapes are available--you only pay extra for the cost of the forms.

That would almost certainly be more efficient than a standard quarry operation. Of course, the mason's guilds might not appreciate it too much. And if the local crime syndicate happened to have their fingers in the pie, that could be a problems.

This is how you’d do it. And any broken bits or other shrinkage would go into a pile of sacrificial bricks on site to turn back into mud, because you’re jawing that mud as mortar between your bricks. Construct mundanely, and then dispel the transmuted mud-mortar back into stone. Now your wall is mortared in stone as hard and solid as the bricks themselves.

There is also planar binding. Bind an Earth Elemental or two to bring bespoke stone to your job site. It’s done when it delivers the agreed upon amount of exactly what you want, and it will likely do it quite efficiently.

Creation may be an illusion spell, but it can make your wooden wagons, too. And your molds for your mud bricks.

Demiplane is actually better for transport than Magnificent Mansion; the demiplane it creates specifically persists, so you can have your quarrymen fill it up, go to the delivery site, and open it up for the builders to unload.

[Sigreid]

What this trick is doing, effectively, is letting you build using concrete instead of solid stone. Almost all modern masonry construction is concrete instead of stone. Why do you suppose that is? Don't you think it might have some advantages?

Fun fact, modern concrete has a lot of extra material in it to keep stresses from travelling too far through the material.

[Raxxius]

Few things to ponder.

Forms are incredibly easy to make with wall of stone, or stone shape.

Mould earth is a cantrip that allows you to move five foot cubed of dirt (mud) or stone five foot per turn, making digging out foundations faster than current real life technology. I mean just using one instance of the spell allows you to dig a 10 foot deep trench five food wide in 12 seconds.

This also allows you to trivially move five foot by five foot blocks of stone. That's something like 2.5 tonnes of rock being moved by one guy, probably with his hands on his pockets.

Move earth is a spell that allows you to create 20 foot high walls in ten minutes, make it from the mud and you're building really quickly. Beyond that, you can just use normal earth and turn that to soft rock for rapid scaffolding/molds.

It's not exactly established that dispelling rock to mud in parts with the parts touching each other would result in seams or seamless joining.

Moving large amounts of things is easy with pocket dimensions. A portable hole carries as much stuff as a small articulated lorry.

Construction with high magic would be on par or flat out superior to existing real life practices, anyone who thinks otherwise either doesn't understand the basics of construction or, more likely, hasn't read the appropriate spells and theory crafted this out.

One mage with a couple of lvl 5 slots and a few cantrip casters could knock up a small keep in a day. And with access to good quality materials would do a great job of fortifications, and could also make terrace houses way faster than traditional construction.

I'm not saying that the wizard wouldn't need knowledge of what he's doing, but magic just breaks so many rules of real life.

[JNAProductions]

Mold Earth doesn't let you move stone.

You can:


-If you target an area of loose earth, you can instantaneously excavate it, move it along the ground, and deposit it up to 5 feet away. This movement doesn’t have enough force to cause damage.

-You cause shapes, colors, or both to appear on the dirt or stone, spelling out words, creating images, or shaping patterns. The changes last for 1 hour.

-If the dirt or stone you target is on the ground, you cause it to become difficult terrain. Alternatively, you can cause the ground to become normal terrain if it is already difficult terrain. This change lasts for 1 hour.

Note that that only allows movement of loose earth. Not stone.

[Chronos]

Who said we needed to make an entire castle in one pour?

[PhoenixPhyre]

Who said we needed to make an entire castle in one pour?

The fact that you can only dispel it once and the whole thing turns back to stone? The fact that if you do it in sections you're leaving a huge crack where the new and the old won't bond?

[Galithar]

You all seem to forget were constructing a maybe 30-40 foot high structure. If that high. You're acting like we're building a skyscraper.

To all of you worried about air bubbles. Thaumaturgy. It can create harmless vibrations. This wouldn't damage the structure of the form (because the rules say it can't) but it would release any air pockets.

Remember the difference between real life and this. I'm using freaking magic. I don't have real life restrictions here, all I have to do is stay within the bounds of the game. Creating concrete forms for a 10+ story steel and concrete structure are way more advanced then creating a simple mold.

The reason modern construction isn't done in one big pour is because of the real life issues with the concrete setting and ensuring no air bubbles. My 'concrete' sets perfectly and instantly when I cast dispell magic on it.

Also, it is not at all like building a ship. Mud is not water. Mud has A MUCH higher viscosity, not to mention this is magical mud that is incapable of separating it's watery components from it's solid, it magically stays a mixture even though the water may naturally run out.

[JNAProductions]

You all seem to forget were constructing a maybe 30-40 foot high structure. If that high. You're acting like we're building a skyscraper.

To all of you worried about air bubbles. Thaumaturgy. It can create harmless vibrations. This wouldn't damage the structure of the form (because the rules say it can't) but it would release any air pockets.

Remember the difference between real life and this. I'm using freaking magic. I don't have real life restrictions here, all I have to do is stay within the bounds of the game. Creating concrete forms for a 10+ story steel and concrete structure are way more advanced then creating a simple mold.

The reason modern construction isn't done in one big pour is because of the real life issues with the concrete setting and ensuring no air bubbles. My 'concrete' sets perfectly and instantly when I cast dispell magic on it.

Also, it is not at all like building a ship. Mud is not water. Mud has A MUCH higher viscosity, not to mention this is magical mud that is incapable of separating it's watery components from it's solid, it magically stays a mixture even though the water may naturally run out.

"Magic" is not a blanket get-out-of-reality free. Spells do what they say they do-they don't do more or less.

[Galithar]

"Magic" is not a blanket get-out-of-reality free. Spells do what they say they do-they don't do more or less.

EXACTLY. It creates mud. That mud stays mud until dispelled. Period. Because that's what it says happens. Then it's instantly not mud when dispelled because that's what it says happens. Thaumaturgy can create tremors that don't damage anything because that's what it says it does.

Also it's a freaking game with magic in it reality is ****ing irrelevant.

[JNAProductions]

EXACTLY. It creates mud. That mud stays mud until dispelled. Period.

Also it's a freaking game reality is ****ing irrelevant.

Mud also doesn't stay perfectly in shape. It flows and moves and warps.

And you cannot simultaneously be attempting to model realistic buildings using modern-day knowledge and, more importantly, following spell abilities that are logical but not explicitly in the text AND say reality is irrelevant.

[Galithar]

The fact that you can only dispel it once and the whole thing turns back to stone? The fact that if you do it in sections you're leaving a huge crack where the new and the old won't bond?

Actually we can do it in multiple pours, just like modern construction. I'm taking to 'one pour' approach simply to say it can be fine with two spells being cast.

[Unoriginal]

You all seem to forget were constructing a maybe 30-40 foot high structure. If that high. You're acting like we're building a skyscraper.

Even a 15ft tall structure is pretty hard to do.



To all of you worried about air bubbles. Thaumaturgy. It can create harmless vibrations. This wouldn't damage the structure of the form (because the rules say it can't) but it would release any air pockets.

No? You'd need to shake the whole surface for hours to make something like that.



Remember the difference between real life and this. I'm using freaking magic. I don't have real life restrictions here, all I have to do is stay within the bounds of the game.

Magic's restrictions are what you should worry about. You can't just "It's magic" away a problem.



The reason modern construction isn't done in one big pour is because of the real life issues with the concrete setting and ensuring no air bubbles. My 'concrete' sets perfectly and instantly when I cast dispell magic on it.

No, your "concrete" turns back into stone, while keeping the same shape as the mud. You'd need to set the mud up perfectly to have a perfect result.

And then you'd have all the issues of a natural stone building without any support frames.



Also, it is not at all like building a ship. Mud is not water. Mud has A MUCH higher viscosity, not to mention this is magical mud that is incapable of separating it's watery components from it's solid, it magically stays a mixture even though the water may naturally run out.

There is no water involved, it's transmuted stone.


Thaumaturgy can create tremors that don't damage anything because that's what it says it does.

And they also can't remove air bubbles from a poured liquid because that doesn't say it can, then.



Also it's a freaking game with magic in it reality is ****ing irrelevant.

No, it is not.


Either one does a precise, detailed, replicable calculation as to how this wizard is building a castle using the spells' actual powers (aka, what is written in the spell entry, nothing more, nothing less) and the wizard's actual capacities (aka, all the limits to their powers and the normal restrictions all characters have), or you don't claim that they're "amazing for Construction" like OP did. As simple as that.


I am SICK AND TIRED of people claiming that wizards or druids or casters are "amazing" at X task because they got an idea and when asked to back it up with actual calculations they just handwave it, declare non-factual things as evidences that they can, ignore the limits of magic and when all that fails just announce that it doesn't matter because magic.


If you actually wanted to pour transmuted mud into a wooden mold and then Dispell it to get stone, and build a whole castle that way, you know what you'd need, rather than just some wood put in place? A castle-shaped, castle-sized wooden mold. Even if you do it in several parts, it'd have to be a whole castle mold in the end.


For a 3D structure on the ground with empty rooms in it, the mold would need to cover between 4 and 5 of the 42000 cubic feet's cube of the castle, so an average of 4.5 sides.

That means 32400 square feet of wooden panels, not counting anything that'd hold said panels vertically (or horizontally for the inside rooms).

In other words, to build a castle, a wizard would need to have 32400 square feet of wooden panels (or planks, or other flat wooden surfaces) built, then have people place them in a castle-shaped structure in a way that won't break or spill when filled with the liquid stone.

And that by itself is a massive construction project. Heck, regular castle-builders only use wood as scaffolding and as frame to make the stone hold, and it's still a big share of the castle's construction, without having to make either of those structures mud-thight.

So, to build a castle with Transmute stone, you need to have a structure far more complete, hard to make and costly than a regular castle's scaffolding built. It's not going to take 10'000 gp and two handfuls of workers to have it made, and it won't be fast.


D&D magic can be incredible, glorious, wondrous, wild, and a lot of other things.

What 5e made sure is that it wouldn't be good at industry or other exploits via systematic application of spells.



Construction with high magic would be on par or flat out superior to existing real life practices, anyone who thinks otherwise either doesn't understand the basics of construction or, more likely, hasn't read the appropriate spells and theory crafted this out.

I'd be happy to see your calculations for how easily and fast a wizard could make a castle analogous in dimensions to the Chateau of Langeais, posted earlier in the thread.

[Segev]

To be fair, a castle-sized mold could be created with Mirage Arcane, the real mud poured in, and Dispel cast on the whole thing to leave the stone castle in place.

[Unoriginal]

Also: Transmute Rock does NOT allow you to turn a 40ft cube of stone into mud.

The spell is pretty clear: the enemies are just hindered by walking through a layer of mud, not swiming in a 40ft deep pool of it. It can also transmute a layer of the ceiling if there's one 40ft above, that's all. So the mud would be a couple of feet deep.

Hell, even the "turn mud to stone" function precise it affects mud up to only 10ft deep, and it's deeper than the other option.

So, who wish to calculate how many casting you'd need to fill 420'000 cubic feet of castle?

[OvisCaedo]

Also: Transmute Rock does NOT allow you to turn a 40ft cube of stone into mud.

The spell is pretty clear: the enemies are just hindered by walking through a layer of mud, not swiming in a 40ft deep pool of it. It can also transmute a layer of the ceiling if there's one 40ft above, that's all. So the mud would be a couple of feet deep.

Hell, even the "turn mud to stone" function precise it affects mud up to only 10ft deep, and it's deeper than the other option.

So, who wish to calculate how many casting you'd need to fill 420'000 cubic feet of castle?

While it's clear a lot of these claims are ignoring the actual logistics and difficulty of construction, this feels like an iffy claim on your part, too. Or, rather, the spell is written kind of poorly and the way it functions doesn't really make any sense, and leaves some real gaps in what happens. It says it affects up to 40 foot cube, even if the results on creatures don't seem like they reflect that depth at all. Your pointing out that mud to stone specifies a limited effective depth feels like it only reinforces that point; such a note is completely lacking on the stone-to-mud version. The spell DOES seem pretty poorly thought out in how it's written in general, though; what on earth even happens with this massive amount of movement-hindering mud when you drop it from the ceiling? It does light damage, and then...? Where's it go? Should it just be hindering the area it dropped on? Should it be spreading all over uselessly? Who knows!

Maybe it's just too thick for people to sink in all the way; I'm not sure that makes any sense, but spells do what they say they do, yes? (though also by virtue of that note I still think you're right overall about magic not being some insta easy-castle solution on this one. Well, not these ones, anyhow.)

[Galithar]

Also: Transmute Rock does NOT allow you to turn a 40ft cube of stone into mud.

The spell is pretty clear: the enemies are just hindered by walking through a layer of mud, not swiming in a 40ft deep pool of it. It can also transmute a layer of the ceiling if there's one 40ft above, that's all. So the mud would be a couple of feet deep.

Hell, even the "turn mud to stone" function precise it affects mud up to only 10ft deep, and it's deeper than the other option.

So, who wish to calculate how many casting you'd need to fill 420'000 cubic feet of castle?

"You choose an area of stone or mud that you can see that fits within a 40-foot cube and is within range, and choose one of the following effects.

Transmute Rock to Mud. Nonmagical rock of any sort in the area becomes an equal volume of thick, flowing mud that remains for the spell’s duration."

It takes ONE casting. Do you see a depth in the spell description? Because what I see is "Nonmagical rock of any sort in the area..." The area being the previously described 40-foot cube. So actually it does allow that because it's literally exactly what the spell says it does.

[Unoriginal]

"You choose an area of stone or mud that you can see that fits within a 40-foot cube and is within range, and choose one of the following effects.

Transmute Rock to Mud. Nonmagical rock of any sort in the area becomes an equal volume of thick, flowing mud that remains for the spell’s duration."

It takes ONE casting. Do you see a depth in the spell description? Because what I see is "Nonmagical rock of any sort in the area..." The area being the previously described 40-foot cube. So actually it does allow that because it's literally exactly what the spell says it does.

"You choose an area of stone or mud *that you can see*". You can't see 40ft deep into stone.

The area is "visible rock or mud that fits within a 40ft cube", it is not a 40ft cube of rock.

As for the depht, while it's possible for creatures to sink into it enough to be restrained, they're at no point at risk of drowning or suffocating, which would happen if the mud was 40ft deep when they sunk into it.

Furthermore you can still fully use your arms while under the restrained condition. Again, not something that happens when you're sinking into a pit of mud deeper than you're tall.

The mud pit can at best trap your feet and such make it hard for you to dodge or do combat footwork. That's it.

[Galithar]

"You choose an area of stone or mud *that you can see*". You can't see 40ft deep into stone.

The area is "visible rock or mud that fits within a 40ft cube", it is not a 40ft cube of rock.

As for the depht, while it's possible for creatures to sink into it enough to be restrained, they're at no point at risk of drowning or suffocating, which would happen if the mud was 40ft deep when they sunk into it.

Lmao.

You can only 'see' the surface. An asininely strict reading of that implies that you can only create a thin layer of mud. Because you can't see anything below it!

Regardless, you win. I can't stomach the inanity of the arguments presented here anymore.

Edit: I can't help myself. An area of effect only requires line of sight to where it starts. For a cubic area that is any face of the cube. So do long as I can see the top of my cube I can extend it down and follow all the rules in the book. You can make up rules to say uh-uh all you want though :)

[Unoriginal]

Lmao.

You can only 'see' the surface. An asininely strict reading of that implies that you can only create a thin layer of mud. Because you can't see anything below it! .

Yes. You can only create a layer deep enough it's hard to walk in and might trap one's feet.

It's not an asinine reading, it's the actual effect of the spell.

[Unoriginal]

Edit: I can't help myself. An area of effect only requires line of sight to where it starts. For a cubic area that is any face of the cube. So do long as I can see the top of my cube I can extend it down and follow all the rules in the book. You can make up rules to say uh-uh all you want though :)

You've yet to provide ANY type of explanation as to why your 40ft deep pit of mud can only slow down people who walk through it, or apply the restrained condition (aka explicitly block their feet while leaving them free to use their hands and equipment) despite sinking into 40ft of mud being enough to drown a stone giant.

[Chronos]

You can't see the stone an eight of an inch below the surface. Does the "you can see" part prevent you from making mud an eighth of an inch thick? That doesn't seem like it'd impair movement much. Obviously it must work to some depth greater than that... but how deep? The only answer the spell provides is 40'.

[Segev]

The "that you can see" argument is dumb. You can only polymorph creatures you can see; does this mean you can only polymorph their skin? Of course not. You polymorph everything about them. When you say "you can see" something, you aren't saying you're only talking about its surface. Not even 3.5 was written that pedantically stupid, and 5e is not written with pedantry in mind.

If you can see the exterior of a block of stone that fits within a 40 ft. cube, you can transmute the whole thing to mud, according to that spell. "Thick, flowing mud," to be precise, with a description for what happens if the resulting mud is at least a foot deep: it hinders movement. It's not water; you don't sploosh into it immediately. In fact, if it's held in place by, say, being surrounded by other stone, you probably have to work to get much deeper than your waist, since it's significantly denser than water (and you are not).

After the mud falls from the ceiling (if you use it that way), it's a big pile of mud on the floor. The spell doesn't give specific rules for being smothered, but it being "thick, flowing mud" and the rules for how hard it is to move through can be easily extrapolated to working your way out of it. It doesn't pin, but it hinders movement. Rules for suffocation are given in general; it's up to the DM how deep the mud is and how long it takes to get to the edge if you're caught underneath it. But movement rules are provided, so it's not a hard guideline to follow.

If the caster is willing to put up with the rearrangement of the landscape of the underground cavern, it's a pretty lethal spell. Especially followed up by dispel magic. But in non-caverns, where you don't have dozens of feet of rock overhead, the damage may be the same or less, and it certainly isn't going to suffocate anybody as the 1-2 feet of mud slop out to 4-10 inches, and in no event is over anybody's head.

[JNAProductions]

Yeah-while I'm largely on your side, Unoriginal, that's a weak argument at best.

[jh12]

Here's the real question. What happens if the stone on the ground level is only 2 feet thick and the caster doesn't know it? Did our 40 by 40 foot swimming pool of mud just become a 40 by 40 hole?

[Xetheral]

What 5e made sure is that it wouldn't be good at industry or other exploits via systematic application of spells.

Personally, I don't consider using spells for industry to be an exploit in any way whatsoever. The world-building implications of magic are part of what makes D&D fascinating to me.

Those implications aren't set in stone by the rules either. It's entirely possible for one DM to rule that the listed construction time and price for a small castle already takes magic into account. If a player wanted to use more magic they might only be able to decrease time at the cost of increased expense, or vice versa. (Or if the player was a caster, substitute their own labor to reduce out-of-pocket costs.) A different DM could rule that the listed prices are for purely-mundane constuction, and then extrapolate possible savings in time and/or money by replacing parts of the construction process with magic. (At which point DMs will also diverge on their interpretations of particular spells.)


To be fair, a castle-sized mold could be created with Mirage Arcane, the real mud poured in, and Dispel cast on the whole thing to leave the stone castle in place.

I like this plan. Mirage Arcane can even help with lifting the mud higher than the frame in order to pour it in to the mold by creating a precipice adjacent to the mold. Combined with Demiplane for transporting up to 27,000 cubic feet of the mud all at once, this appears to be the best option for building structures in just a couple days.

Using only lower-level spells, I think the proposal to use Transmute to create pre-cast perfect stone blocks and then use traditional construction techniques is likely the best bet. (Although I suspect that, with perfectly-shaped blocks, dry stone (i.e. mortarless) construction might be stronger than using Transmuted mud as mortar.) Opinions will of course diverge on how much time and out-of-pocket expense (if any) this would save, and whether the resulting product would be superior.

Edit: Using Transmute for quarrying and Stone Shape for assembly is probably better, and bypasses the issue of mortar all together. It requires a lot of castings of Stone Shape, however.

[Monster Manuel]

"Nonmagical rock of any sort in the area becomes an equal volume of thick, flowing mud that remains for the spell’s duration."


Here's something else that is going to cause us trouble, the wording "rock of ANY SORT". This is going to make it hard to transmute a 40-foot cube of granite, since the spell will catch ALL of the rock in the area, not just the granite you want. You're not likely to find a deposit of pure granite large enough to be able to transmute into a pure Granite mud, like we're proposing. You'll get a slurry of granite plus whatever other types of rock were in that deposit, and thus get a non-uniform, potentially-weaker-in-places wall once you freeze it back up.

Do we care? Is a solid wall of just "generic, mixed rock" as opposed to a wall of solid granite still enough stronger than a basic Wall of Stone to make this an issue? Is this maybe why the HP and Hardness of a Wall of Stone is lower in the first place; sure, the granite in the wall is hard, but you chip away at the sandstone surrounding it and the whole thing comes crumbling down?

I'm thinking maybe Fabricate might get around this, though. You have a vein of pure granite (surrounded by whatever else), could you use Fabricate to extract all of that raw granite into a granite slab? It could only be a 5-foot-cube, due to the limitations of Fabricate, but it would be pure granite. You would need multiple castings (likely over multiple days) to get enough for your 40 feet of granite, but it could be done. Then you use your pile of pure granite as the target for your Rock-To-Mud?

Not super-efficient, but still far more cost-effective and faster than mining it out by hand...

[Segev]

Here's the real question. What happens if the stone on the ground level is only 2 feet thick and the caster doesn't know it? Did our 40 by 40 foot swimming pool of mud just become a 40 by 40 hole?

Yes. You wind up with a hole as the mud schlorps down to the floor below.

[Monster Manuel]

Side Note: I was hoping to come up with a way to use Tenser's Floating Disk to help with transport. But, it only holds up to 500 lbs.

Given that a 1" thick granite counter top slab is about 15 lbs per square foot, you're looking at over 20,000 lbs for the 5' cube of granite.

So, that's a nope.

[Dalebert]

If the ceiling is less than 40 feet, seems like you can get both floor and ceiling.

[Galithar]

Here's the real question. What happens if the stone on the ground level is only 2 feet thick and the caster doesn't know it? Did our 40 by 40 foot swimming pool of mud just become a 40 by 40 hole?

No. It only transmutes rock. So if below the two feet of rock is 38 feet of 'not rock' then only the first two feet change.

[jh12]

No. It only transmutes rock. So if below the two feet of rock is 38 feet of 'not rock' then only the first two feet change.

I understand it only transmutes rock. But what happens to two feet of rock is above 38 feet of empty air? Note Segev's response "Yes. You wind up with a hole as the mud schlorps down to the floor below."

[Chronos]

Fabricate might be useful for other sorts of refining, but it'd take 512 castings of Fabricate to make enough granite blocks to fill a 40' cube. On the other hand, if you've got a nice vein of granite that mostly fills a 40' cube, you could instead use Fabricate to remove the impurities.

Or you could just stir the mud well before re-solidifying it. Most natural stones are heterogeneous, anyway.

[Galithar]

I understand it only transmutes rock. But what happens to two feet of rock is above 38 feet of empty air? Note Segev's response "Yes. You wind up with a hole as the mud schlorps down to the floor below."

Ah, yes. That's where I would say the spell is pretty poorly written. It would indeed create a hole, but I don't think it was ever intended to. Just like it was never intended to be used as a super concrete producer, but as written it is.

In all honesty the area of effect should never have been a cube. It should have been closer to:
"You choose a square area you can see that is no more then 40 feet on a side. Any stone in the area, to a depth of 2 feet, is transmuted to mud"

[Segev]

Ah, yes. That's where I would say the spell is pretty poorly written. It would indeed create a hole, but I don't think it was ever intended to. Just like it was never intended to be used as a super concrete producer, but as written it is.

In all honesty the area of effect should never have been a cube. It should have been closer to:
"You choose a square area you can see that is no more then 40 feet on a side. Any stone in the area, to a depth of 2 feet, is transmuted to mud"

That wording would not prevent the hole in the two foot thick stone floor. And if it’s history from prior editions is any indication, it was very much intended for creative use.

[Galithar]

That wording would not prevent the hole in the two foot thick stone floor. And if it’s history from prior editions is any indication, it was very much intended for creative use.

My bad, I originally said 1 foot and decided it was too shallow and upped it. Ideally it should have a clause that prevents it from being used to open giant gaping pits under your enemy as that isn't inline with what the spell is intended for.

I doubt it's intentional though because that would make it usable in a manner to similar to passwall which is of equal level, but creates a much smaller (though more flexible) opening.

[Xetheral]

Ah, yes. That's where I would say the spell is pretty poorly written. It would indeed create a hole, but I don't think it was ever intended to. Just like it was never intended to be used as a super concrete producer, but as written it is.

In all honesty the area of effect should never have been a cube. It should have been closer to:
"You choose a square area you can see that is no more then 40 feet on a side. Any stone in the area, to a depth of 2 feet, is transmuted to mud"

Interesting. Based on the games I've run and played in, destroying (3 floors worth of) stone flooring in a multi-level stone structure and/or destroying load-bearing stone walls and columns are the primary uses of the spell.

[Galithar]

Interesting. Based on the games I've run and played in, destroying (3 floors worth of) stone flooring in a multi-level stone structure and/or destroying load-bearing stone walls and columns are the primary uses of the spell.

That's because the spell allows it. And I could be wrong, but I don't think it was the intent. It is actually far more effective at destroying buildings then spells with specific rules relating to destroying buildings (Earth quake) that can take longer to destroy the building Transmute can destroy in it's initial action.

But you are correct that it is a common use, I just don't think that's what they were thinking when they wrote it because it's building destroying capabilities seem to be of seventh level power, not fifth. Maybe it's just me though.

[Segev]

That's because the spell allows it. And I could be wrong, but I don't think it was the intent. It is actually far more effective at destroying buildings then spells with specific rules relating to destroying buildings (Earth quake) that can take longer to destroy the building Transmute can destroy in it's initial action.

But you are correct that it is a common use, I just don't think that's what they were thinking when they wrote it because it's building destroying capabilities seem to be of seventh level power, not fifth. Maybe it's just me though.

I’m pretty sure you’re wrong: such uses we’re intended.

[Galithar]

I’m pretty sure you’re wrong: such uses we’re intended.

Sure it's possible, but I can all but guarantee if they were intended WotC would have written out what happens in those cases. Like they do for other spells like Earthquake. They may NOW support the spells use in that manner, but there is nothing that makes me think it's intentional and it's blatantly being better at it then a spell of the same level that is literally designed to make holes in walls/floors says that it's not intended.

[Xetheral]

Sure it's possible, but I can all but guarantee if they were intended WotC would have written out what happens in those cases. Like they do for other spells like Earthquake. They may NOW support the spells use in that manner, but there is nothing that makes me think it's intentional and it's blatantly being better at it then a spell of the same level that is literally designed to make holes in walls/floors says that it's not intended.

To me the level disparity between Transmute Rock and Earthquake makes sense. Transmute Mud can damage or (if you can get within range of critical load-bearing elements) destroy a single stone structure. Earthquake can damage or (depending on HP and fissure location) destroy every structure of any material in a 200' diameter circle.

Sure, sometimes the lower-level Transmute Rock is more effective because it can be targeted more precisely than Earthquake can. That's a pretty common benefit of using lower-level "single" target spells over their higher-level AoE bretheran.

[Segev]

Sure it's possible, but I can all but guarantee if they were intended WotC would have written out what happens in those cases. Like they do for other spells like Earthquake. They may NOW support the spells use in that manner, but there is nothing that makes me think it's intentional and it's blatantly being better at it then a spell of the same level that is literally designed to make holes in walls/floors says that it's not intended.

Transmute rock to mud has been used for all the things being discussed in this thread for decades. Far, far before 5e was ever printed. 5e is a game of "rulings, not rules." Spelling out the effects of the spell, and letting DMs extrapolate from there what the results would be, is exactly in the writing style for it. Earthquake has a lot of inobvious effects, and effects which would be hard to adjudicate just how far to take them, hence the extra explanation. Transmute rock turns all rock in a particular volume of space to mud; the effects of having to trek through it are inobvious, so spelled out; the effects of having that much mud fall on somebody requires a numeric judgment, so the spell provides that.

The effects of turning all the rock in a ceiling or floor to mud and having the mud fall (per the description of the spell telling us it does if cast on a ceiling) would be to have a hole in the ceiling or floor; this is an obvious and easy extrapolation. The spell specifies "thick, flowing mud," which is at least semi-liquid (since it's "flowing") and soft enough to shape (as any 5-year-old can tell you mud is), so the ability to shape the mud by mundane and even magical means (which shape other such items) is going to happen, but the effects of doing so are DM calls anyway unless they invoke another aspect of the rules. (e.g. making a mud sculpture may well be an Intelligence or Dexterity check for determining the quality of the craftsmanship and how "good" it looks).