Simulacrum stuff

[Dmdork]

I asked a question on the raw thread:



Quote Originally Posted by Dmdork View Post
Q287 The Simulacrum can act on my turn. Does that mean in the beginning of my turn, the end, the middle?
A287: Unless the timing is specified it’s up to the player.

I'm not sure what 'unless the timing is specified' means. Im thinking It's either before or after. How would that work in between? Ready actions?

Also, if the Simulacrum goes on my turn, how would that work with legendary actions? Legendary actions happen at the end of anyone's turn. Does that include the Simulacrum?

[Millstone85]

Im thinking It's either before or after. How would that work in between?Before, after, or in between what?

[MarkVIIIMarc]

I asked a question on the raw thread:



Quote Originally Posted by Dmdork View Post
Q287 The Simulacrum can act on my turn. Does that mean in the beginning of my turn, the end, the middle?
A287: Unless the timing is specified it’s up to the player.

I'm not sure what 'unless the timing is specified' means. Im thinking It's either before or after. How would that work in between? Ready actions?

Also, if the Simulacrum goes on my turn, how would that work with legendary actions? Legendary actions happen at the end of anyone's turn. Does that include the Simulacrum?

I think you are overthinking the "on your turn" part. As DM, I wouldn't care as long as it was on your turn.

As far as legendary actions I'd go dig and see if they have to recharge. I don't think most are spell slots that rdcharge so I'd say take em as normal?

FWIW, if a party member made a Sim of Azrael or whoever and I was DM, I might let the fun go for a session or so then rain some head dragon from hell on them or a group of arch demons. IMO it would be OP. Ingenious but OP.

[Dmdork]

Before, after, or in between what?

Before, after, or in between my turn

[Millstone85]

Before, after, or in between my turnThe simulacrum doesn't act before your turn, after your turn, or in between turns. It acts during your turn.

[Dmdork]

So I can mix up my actions and moves and interacts between me and my simulacrum?

[MarkVIIIMarc]

So I can mix up my actions and moves and interacts between me and my simulacrum?

As DM if I noticed you abusing the turn sequence my bad guys might recognize you as their strongest player and trap you in a Forcecage along with something you had a weakness towards.

SO, act accordingly and maybe try reading what your DM thinks. You're in overoptimizing fuzzy territory here.

[Sigreid]

My DM ruling would be that when your turn comes up you and your simulacrum act. As a player you can resolve the sim first or your character first, but you'd have to resolve each individual completely before resolving the other.

[Dalebert]

My DM ruling would be that when your turn comes up you and your simulacrum act. As a player you can resolve the sim first or your character first, but you'd have to resolve each individual completely before resolving the other.

That's how we've been handling any minions. You decide on your first turn whether any particular minions (familiar, undead, mounts, simulacrum) is going right before your turn or right after. For a mount that's pretty crucial. It means you can't run up on it, attack, and then have your mount disengage and run away. That would be mixing up your turns together.

I've been led to believe this is RAW but I'm mostly just taking the word of people who seem very competent on the RAW. I couldn't tell you where it says that.

[Dmdork]

Ok, great Ty

[BloodSnake'sCha]

In my table and the tables I played in the turns are in the same time.
That is like that for all minions, do you want to move some of your minions, cast a buff on thhem and then move some of them, move yourself and make them attack that is ok.

[Dmdork]

That's what I think. Note that it can get a little outta hand, cuz my sim and me both get a whole range of stuff we can do and mix it up. I guess thats where the DM steps in and says "um, no" lol

[BloodSnake'sCha]

That's what I think. Note that it can get a little outta hand, cuz my sim and me both get a whole range of stuff we can do and mix it up. I guess thats where the DM steps in and says "um, no" lol

In my table, never. In your table you will need to ask your DM how much is too much for him.

[Keravath]

That's how we've been handling any minions. You decide on your first turn whether any particular minions (familiar, undead, mounts, simulacrum) is going right before your turn or right after. For a mount that's pretty crucial. It means you can't run up on it, attack, and then have your mount disengage and run away. That would be mixing up your turns together.

I've been led to believe this is RAW but I'm mostly just taking the word of people who seem very competent on the RAW. I couldn't tell you where it says that.

Actually, this isn't RAW at all. Lots of people play this way because it is easy and convenient, especially for familiars. However, here are some quotes.

Conjure Animals: "Roll initiative for the summoned creatures as a group, which has its own turns."
Conjure Celestial: "Roll initiative for the celestial, which has its own turns."
Conjure Elemental: "Roll initiative for the elemental, which has its own turns."
Conjure Fey: "Roll initiative for the creature. which has its own turns."
Conjure Woodland Beings: "Roll initiative for the summoned creatures as a group. which have their own turns."
Find Familiar: "In combat, it rolls its own initiative and acts on its own turn."


On the other hand,
Animate Objects: States that the objects have a turn but not when it occurs. You can use a bonus action to command them. This would be up to the DM but I would probably just resolve Animate Objects attacks on the player's turn.
Animate Dead: Same as Animate Objects. Turn order for creatures not specified.
Finger of Death: Creates a zombine minion but turn order for it is not specified.

Under the general rules for initiative:
"When combat starts, every participant makes a Dexterity check to determine their place in the initiative order. The DM makes one roll for an entire group of identical creatures, so each member of the group acts at the same time."

So, in general, each unique group of creatures will have a separate initiative in combat. Presumably this would apply to player controlled undead or other creatures who were present before the combat begins. The remaining question is the turn order for creatures added later to the combat via spells like Animate Objects or another effect that creates a new combat participant during the fight.

Anyway, folks can play however they like and I know many tables just have familiars act on the owners turn for the sake of efficiency and convenience. However, this is not RAW.

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As for simulacrum:
"It obeys your spoken commands, moving and acting in accordance with your wishes and acting on your turn in combat."

I would interpret this to mean that you could have the simulacrum take its entire turn at any point during your turn. The text doesn't limit it to before or after your turn, just on your turn. So although you could not alternate between your actions and that of the simulacrum, I think your character could do things both before and after the simulacrum takes their turn.

So your character might be able to cast a spell, you take the simulacrums turn (whatever it does including any movement) and you could then finish you characters turn by moving or doing something else. The simulacrum could act at the beginning of your turn before your character does anything, it could act during your turn (taking all of its turn between some elements of your turn) or it could take its turn at the end of your turn after you have completed your turn.

The valid targets for simulacrum are beast or humanoid so undead, demons, angels, devils or others need not apply. :) The usual best target for this is a level 20 PC (most often I have seen it used with ranged support characters with crossbow expert and sharpshooter which tends to let them attack from far enough away that they don't take damage. Also since they don't rely on spells for their main damage they can last almost indefinitely.

As for legendary actions, simulacrum states "The duplicate is a creature". Legendary actions usually state "Only one legendary action can be used at a time, and only at the end of another creature's turn." So although the simulacrum takes its turn on your turn, it is still a creature taking its own turn and when the simulacrum completes its turn this can trigger legendary actions by other creatures even if this happens in the middle of your current turn.

[Dalebert]

Actually, this isn't RAW at all. Lots of people play this way because it is easy and convenient, especially for familiars.

True. I think lots of people decide to have them go with the caster for simplicity instead of rolling. So caster picks on the first turn whether the minion(s) go right before him or right after but what's definitely outside of RAW is mixing up turns. Everything has its own turn.

One thing that bugs me about this little shortcut is when a druid summons something and the DM decides it doesn't go until your next turn. That's actually a pretty big debuff making them not be useful for the absolute maximum amount of time whereas if I had rolled, they could be going right after me or sometime soon. I use this shortcut when I'm running and I always let the summons act immediately and continue to have their turn right after the caster.

[Zalabim]

As for legendary actions, simulacrum states "The duplicate is a creature". Legendary actions usually state "Only one legendary action can be used at a time, and only at the end of another creature's turn." So although the simulacrum takes its turn on your turn, it is still a creature taking its own turn and when the simulacrum completes its turn this can trigger legendary actions by other creatures even if this happens in the middle of your current turn.

I only want to correct this "technically," as the simulacrum doesn't say it takes a turn. It says it acts on your turn in combat, which is probably incorrect, much like the line saying "A controlled mount can move and act even on the turn that you mount it," for a mount. For the mount it should probably say Round, which is something that will come up much more often than mounting a creature on its turn, and for the simulacrum it should probably say it acts on your initiative in combat, which would mean it takes a turn either just before or just after its creator, as that's how ties resolve.

[Dmdork]

Actually, this isn't RAW at all. Lots of people play this way because it is easy and convenient, especially for familiars. However, here are some quotes.

Conjure Animals: "Roll initiative for the summoned creatures as a group, which has its own turns."
Conjure Celestial: "Roll initiative for the celestial, which has its own turns."
Conjure Elemental: "Roll initiative for the elemental, which has its own turns."
Conjure Fey: "Roll initiative for the creature. which has its own turns."
Conjure Woodland Beings: "Roll initiative for the summoned creatures as a group. which have their own turns."
Find Familiar: "In combat, it rolls its own initiative and acts on its own turn."


On the other hand,
Animate Objects: States that the objects have a turn but not when it occurs. You can use a bonus action to command them. This would be up to the DM but I would probably just resolve Animate Objects attacks on the player's turn.
Animate Dead: Same as Animate Objects. Turn order for creatures not specified.
Finger of Death: Creates a zombine minion but turn order for it is not specified.

Under the general rules for initiative:
"When combat starts, every participant makes a Dexterity check to determine their place in the initiative order. The DM makes one roll for an entire group of identical creatures, so each member of the group acts at the same time."

So, in general, each unique group of creatures will have a separate initiative in combat. Presumably this would apply to player controlled undead or other creatures who were present before the combat begins. The remaining question is the turn order for creatures added later to the combat via spells like Animate Objects or another effect that creates a new combat participant during the fight.

Anyway, folks can play however they like and I know many tables just have familiars act on the owners turn for the sake of efficiency and convenience. However, this is not RAW.

-----------

As for simulacrum:
"It obeys your spoken commands, moving and acting in accordance with your wishes and acting on your turn in combat."

I would interpret this to mean that you could have the simulacrum take its entire turn at any point during your turn. The text doesn't limit it to before or after your turn, just on your turn. So although you could not alternate between your actions and that of the simulacrum, I think your character could do things both before and after the simulacrum takes their turn.

So your character might be able to cast a spell, you take the simulacrums turn (whatever it does including any movement) and you could then finish you characters turn by moving or doing something else. The simulacrum could act at the beginning of your turn before your character does anything, it could act during your turn (taking all of its turn between some elements of your turn) or it could take its turn at the end of your turn after you have completed your turn.

The valid targets for simulacrum are beast or humanoid so undead, demons, angels, devils or others need not apply. :) The usual best target for this is a level 20 PC (most often I have seen it used with ranged support characters with crossbow expert and sharpshooter which tends to let them attack from far enough away that they don't take damage. Also since they don't rely on spells for their main damage they can last almost indefinitely.

As for legendary actions, simulacrum states "The duplicate is a creature". Legendary actions usually state "Only one legendary action can be used at a time, and only at the end of another creature's turn." So although the simulacrum takes its turn on your turn, it is still a creature taking its own turn and when the simulacrum completes its turn this can trigger legendary actions by other creatures even if this happens in the middle of your current turn.
There it is. Thank you