Divine Soul is terrible. Change my mind

[sophontteks]

When it comes to sorcerer archtypes, divine soul gets a lot of high regard around here for allowing sorcerers to tap into the cleric spell list, but in practice I haven't really seen any substantial benefit to this due to the low number of known spells.

First, the spell list. The spells gained don't seem to be upgrades from the sorcerer list, I don't see any great metamagic combo's from these spells, and the best cleric spells seem to work better on a class with the AC and HP to be close to the enemy. Because sorcerers know very few spells, they are really bad a branching out their spell list to cover multiple roles. The idea seems to be that, with the cleric spell list, a sorcerer can fill the roll of a cleric in the party. In practice they can only take 1-2 cleric spells until late game before they begin to seriously hurt their ability to fulfill their roll as an arcane caster. Basically they can take a healing spell, and something else. To compensate a divine soul gets only 1 extra spell, which is basically going to be their 1 healing spell every time.

Their unique metamagic is terrible. Empower spell is an amazing metamagic on spells like fireball. It gives a substantial increase to the sorcerer's spell potency on the cheap. The problem with empowered healing is that healing spells offer far fewer dice rolls, and this metamagic specifically doesn't work with AOE healing. It's nice to have, but the increase to healing is very low. Wild sorcerers, and shadow sorcerers have game-changing unique metamagics. Empowered healing, on the other hand, is practically fluff.

Favored by the gods can give a bonus to 1 save per short rest. This is great, don't get me wrong, but other archtypes have great things too. Draconic gets +1 hp per level and +3 AC. Shadow sorcerers get enchanced darkness and darkvision. Wild sorcerers get advantage on saves along with attacks and ability checks much more often then once per short rest (unless their DM is a jerk). Favored by the gods, although good, is worse then the comparable abilities of most other sorcerers. From my point of view this is the one big thing divine souls have going for them, and it still isn't superior to what other sorcerers have (except storm, because storm is terrible).

I've tried to plan out divine sorcerer spell progression and metamagic choices. I never found a selection of spells that is better then what I can take with the sorcerer spell list alone. This extra spell tree comes at a high cost. Sorcerers get a lot from their archtypes, especially draconic and shadow sorcerers. IMO the expanded spell list needs to have something substantial in order to be worth this opportunity cost rather then just be a sidegrade if the Divine Soul is to be considered a top-tier sorcerer archtype. To put it bluntly, being a rip-off cleric isn't top tier.

For those who wish to defend the Divine soul. Could you explain your metamagic choices, your spell selection through the levels, and your strategy/tactics?
I'd love to see some solid Divine Soul builds actually put down on the table, so I can put to rest if the Divine soul is actually a solid class, or a bunch of hype. It could be fun, I always enjoyed trying to devise strategies with the sorcerer's few known spells. It's always a challenge for any archtype.

[Yunru]

Divine Soul gets Spiritual Weapon.

[sophontteks]

Divine Soul gets Spiritual Weapon.
That's all they get isn't it? :smallbiggrin:

[JakOfAllTirades]

Twinned Healing Word alone is enough to sell me on the class.

Best. Healer. Ever.

[sophontteks]

Twinned Healing Word alone is enough to sell me on the class.
Best. Healer. Ever.
an extra 1d4 healing makes them the best healer?
A shepherd druid gives extra healing equal to their level to everyone when they use healing word with unicorn spirit.

[Jamesps]

I firmly believe that Divine Soul is the best support character in the game, hands down.

Combining metamagic and constitution savings throws with the ability to choose support spells off two lists (A cleric that can Haste and Counterspell? Yes please) will blow bards and normal clerics out of the water with how much they can make the rest of the team unstoppable. There aren't that many support spells that are really good, so the lack of spells isn't much of a drawback. Only basic fragility of the class is really an issue, so unlike other supports you'll have to help from the back lines.

[sophontteks]

I firmly believe that Divine Soul is the best support character in the game, hands down.

Combining metamagic and constitution savings throws with the ability to choose support spells off two lists (A cleric that can Haste and Counterspell? Yes please) will blow bards and normal clerics out of the water with how much they can make the rest of the team unstoppable. There aren't that many support spells that are really good, so the lack of spells isn't much of a drawback. Only basic fragility of the class is really an issue, so unlike other supports you'll have to help from the back lines.
That's the idea people have, but in practice I've never seen it with the few spells known. Can you show me the metamagic and spell progression to make this ultimate support?

EDIT: Actually, I think sorcerers are ultimate supports, I just don't think the cleric spell list is helping much. Of note, you didn't actually mention a single cleric spell. The best support spells are sorcerer spells like polymorph, haste, and greater invisibility.

[th3g0dc0mp13x]

Imo the best part about sorcerer is that you can choose which role to fill and the expanded spell list can help a ton with almost any role.

Damage dealing: inflict wounds is an amazing single Target damage with amazing scaling. Tack on distant and you've got one of the best ranged strikes in the lower levels. Spiritual weapon plus twinned firebolt each round is pretty damn effective.

Battlefield manipulation: Twinned command to flee puts 2 enemies out of the battle for two rounds. Spirit guardians is awesome though it is better on a cleric. Silence got an annoying caster silence them in a bubble with your barbarian.

Buffing: we have options here from both lists but some standouts Bless, no metamagic needed it's just that good. Sanctuary for yourself and another controller/buffer. Shield of faith for your front line buddies.

I'm on mobile so that's as much as I'm going to throw in.

[Wryte]

The idea seems to be that, with the cleric spell list, a sorcerer can fill the roll of a cleric in the party. In practice they can only take 1-2 cleric spells until late game before they begin to seriously hurt their ability to fulfill their roll as an arcane caster. Basically they can take a healing spell, and something else. To compensate a divine soul gets only 1 extra spell, which is basically going to be their 1 healing spell every time.

You're assuming the sorcerer is prioritizing being a blaster. What if they're wanting to play primarily as a healer and support caster with a few blasting spells?

[Jamesps]

an extra 1d4 healing makes them the best healer?
A shepherd druid gives extra healing equal to their level to everyone when they use healing word with unicorn spirit.

The idea is that you can raise two people from 0 to not-0 with a single bonus action and minimal resource use. I've actually seen this in action in a game that was headed inescapably towards TPK range. The sorceror single handedly saved the party with two twinned healing words that brought four characters back to functionality so that they could take their turns and swing the battle. (Over two turns, obviously).

[Tanarii]

Where Divine souls real shine in combining metamagic with cleric spells. Especially twin healing word or Revivify, or extending any of buffs. Extended aid is really nice, since you can cast it before your long rest.

If you're making a "go boom" sorcerer, they're not amazing. Although twin Guiding Bolt is a nice spell.

Honestly, I never get the complains about limited sorcerer spell slots. They get plenty. If you pick one sorc and one cleric spell per spell level with a Divine soul, you're good to go.

[sophontteks]

You're assuming the sorcerer is prioritizing being a blaster. What if they're wanting to play primarily as a healer and support caster with a few blasting spells?
I'm not assuming. Actually sorcerers are fantastic supports. Their known spells are so low even the blasters only pick 1-2 blasting spells. What does the cleric spell list give to this that the others don't? Is it enough to make them better then the competition?

This is why I'm asking for a real character design in the OP. Show me the spell selection and metamagic, so we can see what is lost and what is gained.

[stoutstien]

The value of the subclass is going to be based on how you view flexibility.
Being able to get two party members up from dieing with a single 1st lv slot and a few sorc points and then turn around and extend animate dead or aid.

If anything you're in the running for having one of the best undead armies on tap.

[samcifer]

Twinning LEsser Restoration was rather helpful to me. In one campaign with a zombie-like virus, I was able to use a Twinned LR on both myself as well as a loyal beast for our party after we both got bit and infected to cure us and save us from turning using only a single spell slot.

[Yunru]

That's all they get isn't it? :smallbiggrin:

That's all they need.
Ever.

Ever.

[sophontteks]

Noticing a distant lack of actual sorcerer builds here. Does anyone actually have a divine soul sorcerer build to share?

[Chronos]

Also keep in mind that most of what a sorcerer gets, they get from the base class, not from their subclasses. I mean, of the two PHB subclasses, one's major feature is that you can accidentally Fireball yourself. Compared to the other subclasses, what Divine Souls get is quite good.

[sophontteks]

Also keep in mind that most of what a sorcerer gets, they get from the base class, not from their subclasses. I mean, of the two PHB subclasses, one's major feature is that you can accidentally Fireball yourself. Compared to the other subclasses, what Divine Souls get is quite good.
Not really. Sorcerers get a lot from their archtypes. Here I'll share my shadow sorcerer build as an example.

Shadow sorcerer halfling with empowered and subtle spell.

Spell progression:
1- Mage Armor, Catapult
2- Absorb Elements
3. Phantasmal Force, Scorching Ray, Darkness, (catapult)
4. Blindness/Deafness
5. Counterspell, Fireball, (Absorb Elements)
6. Enemies abound
7. Sickening Radiance

Enhanced Darkness- Lasts 10 minutes. Can be cast on an object. Object can be put in a bag for pocket darkness on demand. Incredible dual offensive/defensive ability. The darkness can be activated/ deactivated as a free item interaction once per round.
Subtle spell + Phantasmal Force- Preemptively avoid combat encounters, or mess with social encounters. Works from stealth which is a nice bonus.
Scorching Ray + Enhanced Darkness + Empowered spell- Very high single target damage. All attacks with advantage, high chance of scoring crits. Empowered spell gives a substantial increase to damage.
Fireball + Empowered Spell- Biggest fireballs
Subtle spell + Enemies abound- Assassination tool. Cast on target in public and watch them go berserk on everyone that walks past them.
Hounds + Sickening radiance- Cast hounds next to target. They have disadvantage vs. sickening radiance save. If they fail they have disadvantage vs. hound's grapple. They continue to have disadvantage in following rounds until they die.

Blindness/deafness for non-concentration CC when darkness is up. Nice to be able to have darkness, use hounds, and blind the enemy with advantage all in one round. Mage armor is the only defensive spell because darkness is such a powerful defensive tool. Level 1 slots are mostly mulched up for more castings of hounds and enhanced darkness.


That's all they need.
Ever.

Ever.
My shadow sorcerer has hounds vs. your spiritual weapon.

[Tanarii]

Noticing a distant lack of actual sorcerer builds here. Does anyone actually have a divine soul sorcerer build to share?
You don't need builds. You need play experience. If you don't want to play one, observe someone else playing one.

[stoutstien]

Sorcerers builds are going to depend on party. We all could toss out white room builds but the party not having a source of bless alone will greatly shift how the sorcerer is planning to play.

[sophontteks]

You don't need builds. You need play experience. If you don't want to play one, observe someone else playing one.
Just show me what you got. If you have the experience you can explain how your build works.

[stoutstien]

Just show me what you got. If you have the experience you can explain how your build works.
What are the parameters for said build?

[sophontteks]

What are the parameters for said build?
1. Its a divine soul sorcerer :smallbiggrin:

If you mean a format, its whatever you want. I tend not to care about balance over level 10 personally. Sorcerers have very few known spells. I love them, but I always spend a lot of time researching their spell selection and meta-magic choices to ensure I am making wise choices with the limitations. Having 2 spell trees makes this harder. I'd love to see how some of the Divine Soul fans are progressing their characters.

[Tanarii]

Just show me what you got. If you have the experience you can explain how your build works.
I was gonna make a snarky comment about not being mine the burden of the proof, but then I just reread the thread title.

Based on a couple of PCs I've had played at my table, but off the top of my head, through level 6.

Cantrips:
Firebolt (or other Sorc or Cleric ranged attack Cantrip)
Shocking Grasp or Word of Radiance
Spare the Dying
Utility Cantrip (Guidance, Message, etc.)

Level 1:
1) Guiding Bolt
2) Healing Word
-) Bless (free law spell)

Level 2:
3) Mage Armor (extended to 16 hrs at level 3, so free on day 1)

Level 3:
4) Hold Person
Mm) Twin Spell, Extend Spell
Cantrip: choice

Level 4:
5) Aid (extended to 16 hrs at level 3, so free on day 1)

Level 5:
6) Revivify

Level 6:
7) Haste

[Mercurias]

My admittedly limited experience with Divine Soul Sorcerers showed me a few things that I liked and disliked about it. I would hardly say it’s broken, overpowered, or the only Sorcerer origin worth playing, but it has its good points.

-The old adage “versatility is power” applies even to a Sorceror’s spell list. I’m a huge fan of the Command and Sanctuary Spells. Having those two spells and Healing Word alone in my back pocket gave a lot of single-turn tactical options. A Sorcerer’s Spell list is really good as is. Having even more selection is a good thing, and Divine Soul Sorcerers can do things with metamagic and their Cleric spells that no other class or specialization is able to.
-Favored by the Gods is a fairly common “add dice to a save” feature. It’s nice now and then to help maintain concentration in a spell, but hardly gamebreaking. I like the 2d4 better than most of the “roll 1d10” options, but it’s otherwise unremarkable.
-Empowered Healing is nice for bumping up a really unfortunate Cure Wounds or Healing Word. Everybody has rolled that 1 and groaned at the waste of a spell slot. Now you can take it back! Nice, but not really broken.
-No Concentration, At-Will flight is super nice even with only a 30 foot movement. This is a level 14 feature for a reason. Yes, Draconic gets it too. It’s also really nice there.
-Unearthly Recovery is a Bonus Action second wind that recovers health equal to half your max HP. It’s a nice capstone that costs nothing to use and recharges on a long rest, which is fair because it’s a pretty powerful feature to have on-hand when you can cast Disintegrate in the same turn.

Ultimately, probably the nicest thing I see about Divine Soul is that it has very few features that are highly situational. Even if they aren’t the most powerful, you’ll use most of them over the course of an adventuring day, and most of them are easy on spell slots so you can put them towards metamagic or spell slots.

It’s also probably the strongest support origin for Sorcerors. It’s features don’t really push that far aside from offering options for support like Healing spells and Bless, but that’s still more than others get.

Divine Soul’s expanded spell list lends itself well to multiclassing, specifically because there are more options to grab. That, plus its “Angels and Demons” theme, make it a pretty strong choice for Paladins for the popular smite/caster build as well as a decent Warlock multiclass (my experience with Divine Soul was as a multiclass with Fiendlock for lots of undead-summoning and other demonic stuff).

As far as it’s weaknesses? Most of its features feel fairly generic. They aren’t especially unique or powerful in lower levels. What really defines is is the Cleric spell list and the whole flavor of being touched by something divine. I really think we see it a lot in builds because of its versatility for multiclassing and roleplay concepts over any one specific gamebreaking feature it holds over other origins.

So basically I don’t think it’s terrible. If you do? Fine. I’ve said my mind and you’re entitled to disagree. I hope you have things in D&D that you DO enjoy, and I hope you have a good day.

[Haldir]

My houserule is that Divine Souls automatically know every spell on the Healing Domain list, but don't have access to any other cleric spells.

This helps the Sorceror fulfill his role of healer, gets them extra options where they have a dearth of them, and prevents abuse of the really great cleric spells that give sorcerors extra power they don't need.

[OgataiKhan]

I play a Divine Soul X/Hexblade 3 Sorlock, and I think Divine Soul is superior for this purpose to any other sorcerous origin. Here are my reasons, some may not apply to a pure Sorcerer.

First of all, a Sorlock is already a great single target damage dealer, AoE damage dealer, buffer, debuffer, party face, and even tank to a point (24 AC with Shield with no magic items, becomes 32 with perfect magic items). Being a Divine Soul lets you add "healer" to the list.
The strength of this isn't in being a better healer than other healing classes, it's in being a healer in addition to everything else we can do. You are uniting all the possible party roles in one character, which is something a regular cleric or a non-DS sorcerer cannot do.

Favored by the Gods is, as you said, an amazing ability, and it is in my opinion better than +3 AC or Darkness + Darkvision for my build for a simple reason: I get those two anyway by going Hexblade 3 and taking Devil's Sight.

We also get wings, which is amazing. This alone would make me prefer DS to any other origin except for Draconic.

Empowered Healing is of course completely useless, but even if we didn't get the Cleric spell list at all and only got the features listed up to now and the 16th known spell... that would be enough to make me choose DS for a Sorlock. Everything else is just an extra.

So let us get to this extra. Here are the Cleric spells I selected for my build and why they are good.

Guidance: best non-combat cantrip in the game. +2.5 to every planned skill check we do? I know of DMs who ban this outright, but fortunately mine is not among them.

Healing Word: being able to bring two party members at 0 hp back up as one bonus action is extremely powerful in a difficult fight. By making your friends not waste their turn, assuming an optimised party, this is among the best "damage spells" in the game.

Spiritual Weapon: great for a Sorlock when you are running out of sorcery points. Absolutely essential to a pure Sorcerer to deal decent DPR at a low cost.

Aid: why Aid? Because at the end of the day you are often left with unused spell slots. RAW and RAI you can take the last guard shift during a long rest, use your highest level slot to cast Aid on your party in the middle of your shift, and have 25+ temporary hp for the day at no cost, because you regain that slot when you finish the long rest an hour later ( https://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/10/19/casting-a-spell-during-long-rest-breaks-long-rest/ ). Better than the few extra hp draconic grants, isn't it?

Revivify: being able to revive dead party members is an essential ability for a support. Useless to you specifically, but your party will be forever in your debt.

Conjure Celestial: and of course we get the strongest spell in the game below level 9. Why, you ask? Well, because we can use it to summon a Couatl, and the Couatl is amazing. First of all it has many great spells, including Lesser and Greater restoration, and is immune to psychic and nonmagical damage. Most importantly, however, it has a very interesting Change Shape ability.
It can use it to turn into any CR 4 or less beast or humanoid.
That means turning into an Albino Dwarf Spirit Warrior from Tomb of Annihilation and casting Pass Without Trace on the party.
It means turning into a lycanthrope and making all your true neutral, evil, or lawful good party members into lycanthropes as well, granting you immunity to nonmagical damage and other bonuses, like a Str of 17 and a bonus to Perception for the Weretiger.
It means turning into a Pudding King from Out of the Abyss and using his ability to turn into a CR 10 Elder Oblex from Mordekainen's Tome of Foes. Life would be so boring without the Cleric spell list.


I'll add some of the information you requested. I won't go into my level-by-level spell selection because it would be too long, I'll just write down my planned lvl 20 list.

Metamagic choices: Twinned Spell, Quickened Spell, Careful Spell (to use with Hypnotic Pattern), Extended Spell (for Aid)

ASI: War Caster, +2 Cha, +2 Cha, Lucky or Inspiring Leader

Spells:

0 - Guidance, Minor Illusion, Message, Sacred Flame, Mending, Booming Blade W: Eldritch Blast, Mage Hand
1 - Absorb Elements, Healing Word W: Hex, Shield
2 - Spiritual Weapon, Aid, W: Darkness, Misty Step
3 - Revivify, Fireball, Counterspell, Hypnotic Pattern, Haste
4 - Polymorph, Greater Invisibility, Sickening Radiance
5 - /
6 - Heal, Mass Suggestion
7 - Conjure Celestial
8 - /
9 - Wish



That said, Divine Soul is not strictly better than other sorcerous origins, it all depends on the build. A Sorcadin or Sorlockadin will likely prefer to go Shadow Sorcerer for the Hound of Ill Omens + Hold Person/Monster combo.

[Cikomyr]

Divine Soul has a cool role-playing concept.

I mean.. Besides that, what reason is there to pick one class or subclass over the other. The GM, if he's good, is going to adjust the difficulty and challenge to meet the power, strengths and weaknesses of your group.

[GeistInMachine]

Buffer/Support Build

Single Classed Divine Soul 1-20
Mountain Dwarf
8(10)|14|15(17)|8|12|14 -> 10|14|18|8|13|16
Wear Half Plate from Dwarven Armor Training

Progression:
4: Warcaster
8: Dwarven Fortitude
12: Inspiring Leader
16: Resilient Wis
19: +2 Cha

Metamagic

Twin
Quicken
Extend
Subtle



Cantrips

Guidance
Ray of Frost
Toll the Dead
Thaumaturgy
Blade Ward
Booming Blade



1st Level Spells

Shield
Absorb Elements
Healing Word


2nd Level Spells

Aid
Warding Bond


3rd Level Spells

Haste
Spirit Guardians


4th Level Spells

Polymorph
Dimension Door
Death Ward


5th Level Spells

Synaptic Static


6th Level Spells

Word of Recall


7th Level Spells

Conjure Celestial
Crown of Stars


8th Level Spells

Holy Aura


9th Level Spells

Wish


General Strategy

Small Fights: Twin Haste or Polymorph, followed by cantrips
Swarm/Enclosed Fights: Spirit Guardians followed by Dodge w/ Dwarven Fortitude
Serious Fight: Holy Aura, Crown of Stars, Synaptic Static

With Con save proficiency, Warcaster, and Favored by the Gods, your concentration will basically never go down unless you are stunned or paralyzed. Paralysis in particular is why you take Res: Wis

Build focuses on buffing allies, and foregoes strong Cha.

Spells that require saves like Spirit Guardians have an always on slowing effect. Synaptic Static targets Int and has a debuff. Crown of Stars is a tad less accurate, but very efficient source of damage; an upgrade from Spiritual Weapon. Could easily be Teleport or Plane Shift.

With Half Plate, AC is 17+5 with Shield. Absorb Elements for aoes. +4 Con puts you on par hp wise with most other characters

Warding Bond is further buffing. I found at higher levels, I ended up having a lot of spare hp between Dwarven fortitude and especially Unearthly recovery. If you have control over items, or are just lucky, pick up a Pariapt of Wound Closure. Additionally, i was rarely targeted due to my high ac, Absorb Elements, recovery, and ease of making concentration saves. Thus i was a bad target most of the time, and Twin Warding Bond meant i could share HP to those who needed it. This could easily be Counterspell if no one else has it, though I prefer Holy Aura for anti-spell needs.

Conjure Celestials gets a Couatl, which is an incredibly versatile Swiss army knife, Infiltration unit, Free Greater Restoration, and an effective battlefield buffer in its own right with Bless and Leadership from its transformations.

The build's biggest Trick though is Extended Aid and Death Ward. It comes online at level 10; where if you have downtime at all, you can be converting slots and points to buff the entire party with 16hr 5th Level Aid and Death Ward. These buffs can last throughout the night, so you cast them the day before, Sleep, and have all your spells back in the morning. Combine this with Inspiring Leader, and Each party member in a party of 5 can have over +30 effective HP and Death Ward for entire adventuring days. Only improves with higher level spell slots; and is a great counter to Power Words and Disintegrates at high levels. in high tier play, stack a wishcasted Heroes Feast for even more benefit.

This is a single classed build; if I were to multiclass, would go Hill Dwarf instead for even more HP with an Order Cleric dip for Armor and Voice of Authority

[Benny89]

Death Ward, Bless, Aid, Spirit Guardians, Spiritual Weapons, Heal, Greater Restoration, Holy Weapon, True Resurestion, Conjure Celestial, Antimagic Field, Silence, Divine Word. And more.

Also 2d4 on short rest to saves or attack, wings, healing bonus.

They best subclass for Sorcerers, Sorlocks and Sorcadins. It gives so many great spells.

And twin + quicken spells like that... mmmmm....

Sorcadin with Spirit Weapon + Spirit Guardians around him with extended Aid + Death Ward from previous day (16h duration so you can cast it before Long Rest to enjoy it next day with all slots)? Yes please.

Sorlock also has a lot of combos with it.

[sophontteks]

The level 20 builds are a bit difficult to rate, because by level 20 the sorcerer has no problems with known spells. This is my fault though. Most of the game is levels 1-10. All the games I play last till 10 at most. Not to downplay some of the strategies within that are really good. The hardest choices, I think, are levels 1-6. As Mercurias said, the divine soul may be at its weakest at these lower levels and that's not an insignificant problem. This especially true at level 3 and 6 where draconic and shadow sorcerers are getting some really good stuff, but there are not many spare known spells for cleric stuff yet.

I see most people are taking extended spell to extend the non-concentration cleric spells to the next day. That's a pretty good idea. I like it a lot more then twinning healing word. I get that a twinned healing word can be useful, but its not enough to make the archtype stand out on its own. Shepherd druids and life clerics got it a lot better then this. Lay on hands abilities are better too IMO. But, nothing else can mimic an extended aid spell or death ward spell. If I were to play a divine soul I think this would be my go-to for a stand out character.

Another thing I can't argue with is that this is one of the best multiclass options. A lot of the stuff that didn't work before would work if the sorcerer dipped paladin. Strongest sorcadin? Probably.

I don't think spirit guardians is a good pick for pure sorcerer. Its a great cleric spell, but clerics have the armor and the HP to be within range for the spell to work. For a divine soul it seems like a very expensive way to slow the enemy from attacking you. Since most the builds are running twinned, this runs in competition with twinned haste/greater invisibility/polymorph. I think the later is much stronger. Redundancy is a big issue if these options can be used for similar situations, at least until late game. Bless has the same problem and only lasts as an early game pick.


I was gonna make a snarky comment about not being mine the burden of the proof, but then I just reread the thread title.

Based on a couple of PCs I've had played at my table, but off the top of my head, through level 6.

Cantrips:
Firebolt (or other Sorc or Cleric ranged attack Cantrip)
Shocking Grasp or Word of Radiance
Spare the Dying
Utility Cantrip (Guidance, Message, etc.)

Level 1:
1) Guiding Bolt
2) Healing Word
-) Bless (free law spell)

Level 2:
3) Mage Armor (extended to 16 hrs at level 3, so free on day 1)

Level 3:
4) Hold Person
Mm) Twin Spell, Extend Spell
Cantrip: choice

Level 4:
5) Aid (extended to 16 hrs at level 3, so free on day 1)

Level 5:
6) Revivify

Level 6:
7) Haste
Spells can be swapped on level up and the free spell can be too. This'll help the build immensely. Hold person is also holding it back here isn't it? Prior to level 6 the only things the character can do when facing non-humanoids is cantrips, guiding bolt/healing word, and bless.

Here's what I'm coming up with as a more fleshed-out variant swapping spells, and ditching bless and hold person:

Level 1
-Healing Word
-Bless
-Mage Armor- Mage armor is too important not to pick at level 1

Level 2
-Guiding bolt

Level 3
-Spiritual weapon- Allows the build to contribute significantly more per round
-Enlarge/reduce- First good twinned spell option, and a very versatile spell to have.
-(Guiding bolt)- Losing it to make room for better spells.

Level 4
-Aid- Aid is better when we have the slots to spare at the end of the day.
-

Level 5
-Counterspell- Necessary always.
-(Bless)- We have better concentration options thanks to twinned spell, but we gotta wait till 6 for the game-changer
-Revivify

Level 6
-Haste

Level 7
-Death Ward- Essential spell to make extend spell worth it.
-Polymorph- Amazing healing spell. Turn 2 nearly-dead tanks into full health monsters
- (Enlarge/reduce)- We have better concentration options and want to use aid + Deathward.

Extend spell is alright. Guidance is a great pickup. Got the cleric spells in. It all came at a high cost still. No fireballs, no social spells, no control spells. It looks competitive, but not the best. I think it gets much better in later levels. I'd probably have to play it to see how good extend spell is.

[JakOfAllTirades]

an extra 1d4 healing makes them the best healer?
A shepherd druid gives extra healing equal to their level to everyone when they use healing word with unicorn spirit.


Nope. It's an extra 1d4 healing per spell level, per casting, as long as they've got the sorcery points.

Same goes for Cure Wounds. I love having a Divine Soul in our party.

[GeistInMachine]

I think you can pick up Haste at 5. Its so effective that it doesn't matter if you Blast. I wouldn't even have guiding bolt. Just your presence concentrating on Twinned haste means you have added more than your fair share to winning the fight.

Revivify, I don't like on Divine Souls. It works for Clerics because they can swap things as needed. Maybe prep gentle repose which is a lower level spell if anyone goes down, then prep revivify later. But for a Divine Soul, its a real costly choice to pick up for a spell that is only needed if you arn't doing your job anyways. Death Ward is essentially pre-emptive revivify in a lot of cases. Extended Aid and Death Ward make revivify a spell you will never end up using.

[stoutstien]

DS are the most flexible of the sorcerers and probably the most flexible if the classes one might expect to heal on a regular basis.

Had a hill dwarf DS that made good use of twinning warding bond. It probably prevented more damage than anything else in that campaign.

[Nhorianscum]

When it comes to sorcerer archtypes, divine soul gets a lot of high regard around here for allowing sorcerers to tap into the cleric spell list, but in practice I haven't really seen any substantial benefit to this due to the low number of known spells.

First, the spell list. The spells gained don't seem to be upgrades from the sorcerer list, I don't see any great metamagic combo's from these spells, and the best cleric spells seem to work better on a class with the AC and HP to be close to the enemy. Because sorcerers know very few spells, they are really bad a branching out their spell list to cover multiple roles. The idea seems to be that, with the cleric spell list, a sorcerer can fill the roll of a cleric in the party. In practice they can only take 1-2 cleric spells until late game before they begin to seriously hurt their ability to fulfill their roll as an arcane caster. Basically they can take a healing spell, and something else. To compensate a divine soul gets only 1 extra spell, which is basically going to be their 1 healing spell every time.

Their unique metamagic is terrible. Empower spell is an amazing metamagic on spells like fireball. It gives a substantial increase to the sorcerer's spell potency on the cheap. The problem with empowered healing is that healing spells offer far fewer dice rolls, and this metamagic specifically doesn't work with AOE healing. It's nice to have, but the increase to healing is very low. Wild sorcerers, and shadow sorcerers have game-changing unique metamagics. Empowered healing, on the other hand, is practically fluff.

Favored by the gods can give a bonus to 1 save per short rest. This is great, don't get me wrong, but other archtypes have great things too. Draconic gets +1 hp per level and +3 AC. Shadow sorcerers get enchanced darkness and darkvision. Wild sorcerers get advantage on saves along with attacks and ability checks much more often then once per short rest (unless their DM is a jerk). Favored by the gods, although good, is worse then the comparable abilities of most other sorcerers. From my point of view this is the one big thing divine souls have going for them, and it still isn't superior to what other sorcerers have (except storm, because storm is terrible).

I've tried to plan out divine sorcerer spell progression and metamagic choices. I never found a selection of spells that is better then what I can take with the sorcerer spell list alone. This extra spell tree comes at a high cost. Sorcerers get a lot from their archtypes, especially draconic and shadow sorcerers. IMO the expanded spell list needs to have something substantial in order to be worth this opportunity cost rather then just be a sidegrade if the Divine Soul is to be considered a top-tier sorcerer archtype. To put it bluntly, being a rip-off cleric isn't top tier.

For those who wish to defend the Divine soul. Could you explain your metamagic choices, your spell selection through the levels, and your strategy/tactics?
I'd love to see some solid Divine Soul builds actually put down on the table, so I can put to rest if the Divine soul is actually a solid class, or a bunch of hype. It could be fun, I always enjoyed trying to devise strategies with the sorcerer's few known spells. It's always a challenge for any archtype.

Divine soul "heals" by extending aid + death ward on the party before long rest slots reset.

Then you just rip the spells you want above level 1 or 2 out of the cleric list (we're multi'ing for these on a 1-3 level dip) and blam. Instant functional PC.

Easy pz sample.

DS1/Forge1/DS19

1- Lolclericlist
2- Suggestion, Aid
3- Counterspell, Fireball, Haste
4- Ddoor, DWard, Ginvis
5- wall of stone
6- Mass suggestion, Heal
7: Revgrav
8: Cleric list is good here.
9: Wish

Basic support skeleton.13/16 spells used, 3 open. Pick whatever. Raise cleric to 3 or take an other short dip if more spells are needed. Running this build with aby spellcasting race, Mark of Healing, or Mark of Shadow (greater) race/feat gives even more spells.

------------

That said Ravnica backgrounds are a huge buff to other origins. It sorta steps on divine soul toes.

[Tanarii]

I see most people are taking extended spell to extend the non-concentration cleric spells to the next day. That's a pretty good idea. I like it a lot more then twinning healing word. I get that a twinned healing word can be useful, but its not enough to make the archtype stand out on its own.I guess it depends how large your parties are, and how lethal your campaign is. My players can get a lot of mileage out of being able to bring 2 PCs back from 0 hps in one action. Similarly twin revivify is very useful.


Spells can be swapped on level up and the free spell can be too. This'll help the build immensely. Hold person is also holding it back here isn't it? Prior to level 6 the only things the character can do when facing non-humanoids is cantrips, guiding bolt/healing word, and bless.Cantrips are a sorcerer's bread and butter in T1 and T2. Otoh my players regularly do at least 1-1/3 adventuring days, sometimes pushing on to 1-2/3, so long rest spell slots must be stretched out a bit more.

Certainly Guiding Bolt can be swapped out, but it's upcastable and can be twinned and has a buff built in, so it's still a good attack spell in higher level slots for a few levels. Hold Person is a definite candidate to be swapped out, either to a different level 2 for utility as you get better debuffs, or a higher level spell. But it's a great Sorc spell in general, because it can be twinned for 2 targets, or upcast for more targets using spell slots.


-Mage Armor- Mage armor is too important not to pick at level 1I don't personally find that to be the case, but I definitely have some players that would agree with you.

As usual in any threads that have specific builds, I find that I'm not a particularly strong optimizer, and I don't play with them either. Some other folks are making much tighter builds than mine.

[sophontteks]

I think you can pick up Haste at 5. Its so effective that it doesn't matter if you Blast. I wouldn't even have guiding bolt. Just your presence concentrating on Twinned haste means you have added more than your fair share to winning the fight.

Revivify, I don't like on Divine Souls. It works for Clerics because they can swap things as needed. Maybe prep gentle repose which is a lower level spell if anyone goes down, then prep revivify later. But for a Divine Soul, its a real costly choice to pick up for a spell that is only needed if you arn't doing your job anyways. Death Ward is essentially pre-emptive revivify in a lot of cases. Extended Aid and Death Ward make revivify a spell you will never end up using.
I wanted to, just logistical problems since bless has to be swapped with a cleric spell (I think) and counterspell is 100% necessary to me. Revivify seems to be something everyone wants. I think I'm assuming that as a divine soul I may be the only one who can cast it at all. It is real costly though and there are some really good third level spells competing with it, like hypnotic pattern and fireball.


DS are the most flexible of the sorcerers and probably the most flexible if the classes one might expect to heal on a regular basis.

Had a hill dwarf DS that made good use of twinning warding bond. It probably prevented more damage than anything else in that campaign.
Flexible with sorcerer's is a tricky subject...
So far I think it is pretty one trick. It cost my character almost everything else for the ability to heal and extend aid/death ward. No control spells, no AOE abilities, no social spells, very little utility. Every spell gained comes at a cost. Also, most the suggested build ideas seemed to have a pretty common theme. Twinned support spells, extended cleric spells.


I guess it depends how large your parties are, and how lethal your campaign is. My players can get a lot of mileage out of being able to bring 2 PCs back from 0 hps in one action. Similarly twin revivify is very useful.

Cantrips are a sorcerer's bread and butter in T1 and T2. Otoh my players regularly do at least 1-1/3 adventuring days, sometimes pushing on to 1-2/3, so long rest spell slots must be stretched out a bit more.

Certainly Guiding Bolt can be swapped out, but it's upcastable and can be twinned and has a buff built in, so it's still a good attack spell in higher level slots for a few levels. Hold Person is a definite candidate to be swapped out, either to a different level 2 for utility as you get better debuffs, or a higher level spell. But it's a great Sorc spell in general, because it can be twinned for 2 targets, or upcast for more targets using spell slots.

I don't personally find that to be the case, but I definitely have some players that would agree with you.

As usual in any threads that have specific builds, I find that I'm not a particularly strong optimizer, and I don't play with them either. Some other folks are making much tighter builds than mine.
Like you said, it was off the top of your head. I just ironed it out. I see the main strengths everyone is pushing for.

Guiding bolt is unfortunate, but with the limited spell slots it has to go. The things that replaced it are better. Spiritual weapon is just plain stronger, and past that level 3 spells are all too good to pass up.

Twinning hold person is over-rated IMO. It is prohibitively expensive. The spell only works on one creature type. Its a save every round. This is something I thought of for my shadow sorcerer, where the hounds are making it a stronger choice, but even there I felt that I couldn't afford to burn a slot on a spell that only works vs. a limited set of targets.

[Sindal]

I can't give you a build per say, because I don't have access to it anymore, but I had alot of fun playing a divine soul sorcerer.

You get to be a supportive unit that doesn't need to speak to Jesus.
On top of metamagicing the already mentioned spells from everyone else, it's just nice to be able to pull from BOTH the sorcerer and cleric lists and pick buffs appropriately.

It's kinda like...playing a cleric is playing white in Magic the gathering. You create/buff and heal with great ease.
Playing A divine soul sorcerer is playing White/Blue instead. You combine buffs and debuffs from both of the classes.
Generally, you become a "No, screw you" unit to the enemy team. Clerics typically can't counterspell or haste, for example.
And you can double as the face of the party too.

It has it's place. If you want to buckle down on healy boy power and be just 'generally straightforward useful' then your probably better of getting a cleric,
But if you want to be a very unique support with lots of 'ways' to accomplish that goal, divine soul is pretty fun.

[sophontteks]

You get to be a supportive unit that is Jesus.

I fixed that for you. :smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin:

[qube]

1- Mage Armor, Catapult
2- Absorb Elements
3. Phantasmal Force, Scorching Ray, Darkness, (catapult)
4. Blindness/Deafness
5. Counterspell, Fireball, (Absorb Elements)
6. Enemies abound
7. Sickening RadianceBless for darkness, as per class feature. Except the divine soul
doesn't only buff himself, but others as well;
he can do it from lvl 1.
his class feature isn't dependant on it. At higher level, when you want to use concentration on something else, the shadow sorcerer is stuck with an unused feature
Guidance cantrip. Because ... it's Guidance
Guiding Bolt is superior to Catapult (0.5 more damage, but more importantly has an additional effect: it grants advantage to the enxt attack)
etc ...

in the end, I think you've made our case for us: all your shadow sorcerer got is a little combo between Hounds + Sickening radiance (and, FYI, sickening radiance also kills your hound, so it's not even that neat, considering it's been reduced to just a slightly more powerful version of Heightened Spell ) ...
Yes, the DS doesn't get that, but - with a larger spell list, the DS can pick slighty better spells (guidance, guiding bolt, ...) and he can do other things (like get a bonus to a save).

Does that make him equal? No, playing styles differ and all that.
But does that mean he warrents the label "terrible" ? absolutely not.

[sophontteks]

Bless for darkness, as per class feature. Except the divine soul
doesn't only buff himself, but others as well;
he can do it from lvl 1.
his class feature isn't dependant on it. At higher level, when you want to use concentration on something else, the shadow sorcerer is stuck with an unused feature
Guidance cantrip. Because ... it's Guidance
Guiding Bolt is superior to Catapult (0.5 more damage, but more importantly has an additional effect: it grants advantage to the enxt attack)
etc ...

in the end, I think you've made our case for us: all your shadow sorcerer got is a little combo between Hounds + Sickening radiance (and, FYI, sickening radiance also kills your hound, so it's not even that neat, considering it's been reduced to just a slightly more powerful version of Heightened Spell ) ...
Yes, the DS doesn't get that, but - with a larger spell list, the DS can pick slighty better spells (guidance, guiding bolt, ...) and he can do other things (like get a bonus to a save).

Does that make him equal? No, playing styles differ and all that.
But does that mean he warrents the label "terrible" ? absolutely not.
Wait, why am I casting radiance on my hound? I can just cast it so the target is on the edge of the AOE. The hound is still in its own square when grappling, out of the AOE.
And darkness. Its greater invisibility with 10 times the duration and the ability to be activated/deactivated as a free action. When is that going out of style?
Also, define slightly for the hounds. The ability:
- Puts a meat shield between him and the enemy.
- Does 2d6+3 per round plus chance to knock prone.
- Can detect the target even if they are invisible.
- Persists for multiple rounds.

Slightly....

[Yunru]

Bless, on the other hand, is old after level 5.


Uh... What?
Care to explain how Bless gets old? Especially at the level where it's suddenly providing twice the benefit?

[RedMage125]

Noticing a distant lack of actual sorcerer builds here. Does anyone actually have a divine soul sorcerer build to share?

I kind of feel like this is baiting a certain banned troll poster...

[Pex]

Twin Guiding Bolt
Twin Guidance
Twin Protection From Evil
Twin Sanctuary

[Ventruenox]

Currently level 5 is a homebrew campaign. Got a free UA feat at level 1. Divine Soul 3/Rogue 2. While not the damage dealer, or even the best supporting role at this table, he rocks the party face. Surprisingly, has also been the most durable (but that's probably the cowardly con man making good use of Cunning Action.)

Half Elf with 18 CHA (point buy with Everyone's Friend feat), expertise in Persuasion, Deception, Insight, and Performance. Mixing that with Guidance and Inspiration makes for pretty solid social god by level 2.

Cantrips: Firebolt, Guidance, Dancing Lights, Thaumaturgy, & Shape Water (quest reward).

Spells: Bless, Healing Word, Command, Shield, and Phantasmal Force.

Metamagics: Subtle & Extended. When was the last time you saw a resource efficient Sorcerer? Sure, not the most optimal build, but one that allows a great deal of shenanigans.

[Tanarii]

Guiding bolt is unfortunate, but with the limited spell slots it has to go. The things that replaced it are better. Spiritual weapon is just plain stronger, and past that level 3 spells are all too good to pass up.Eh, the point of guiding bolt is granting advantage IMO, at least in comparison to spiritual weapon. But yes, swapping out spells is key to advancing for a Sorc (and warlock), so if you feel it doesn't have staying power then clearly it needs to go.

[TalksAlone]

IMO Divine Soul is a really meta design for a subclass. I see it's intended niche as being cases where people just don't want to play cleric. And it's a good reason for it to exist.

Yes, sometimes you just gotta have Lesser/Greater Restoration, even just for narrative reasons. You don't also want to play into religious ideals for an extended period of time just because you want the ability not to suck when you don't save? Here you go, Divine Soul. Yes, it's a substitute/bootleg cleric. But clerics are so good when you need their class exclusive spells, that it actually makes for a good subclass to have access to them.

That is not to say the subclass doesn't have it's own branch of unique metamagic, spell and class feature interactions and combinations. You just have to do some research, since spell choices, just like with all sorcerer subclasses, are often unintuitive.

This mini-guide on the subject of a Hightened Spell Divine Soul Summoner I've found most compelling on geting this point across (and amazing food for character motivation): http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?548984-The-Divine-Soul-The-best-summoner-mini-guide

Though I have provided an example of build that's unique to the class, we still have to account for the possibility of you simply not liking what the subclass has to offer. Doesn't mean it's worthless in every possible context for every player ever.

[Dalebert]

OP did a good job of reflecting my own thoughts on the DSS. I get that there are some clever things you can do with metamagics and a few cleric spells but it's not impressive enough to give up other, better archetypes for considering the extremely limited spells known of a sorc. Some of the favorites that keep coming up are first level and I just feel like a single level cleric dip is just so much more bang for the buck to grab a few cleric spells. I'm honestly surprised I don't dip a single level of cleric more often just for how meaty it is for just one level--great buffs, heals, armor, domain features. Extended spell on things like Aid and Death Ward to exploit leftover slots at the end of the day seems like one of the better tricks. A Ring of Spell Storing and some cooperation between the cleric and sorc could accomplish much of the same thing. Revivify is one of those spells that you want to have when you need it but you need it so rarely that it's sometimes hard to justify even preparing on a cleric; much less giving up an extremely precious sorc slot for. I could swear someone mentioned twinned revivify? Good grief! How murderous are your DMs that you can justify Revivify on a sorc so you can twin it?

I don't feel any need to burst anyone else's fun bubble with regard to playing a DSS. They're just not appealing to me. My mind hasn't been changed by the thread.

[sithlordnergal]

The big lure is access to the Cleric spells. While Clerics mostly have support spells they do have some very powerful spells that even a pure blaster would want. Spells like Guiding Bolt and Inflict wounds are extremely powerful first level spells, with Guiding Bolt being pretty much equal in terms of damage to Chromatic Orb without the 50gp cost. Meanwhile Inflict Wounds is an easy 3d10 touch spell in case something gets to close, and Spiritual Weapon is an absolutely amazing spell. Guiding Bolt and Inflict Wounds can easily be Twinned or Quickened to great effect.

And on the support side of things, you have spells like Sanctuary, Shield of Faith, Calm Emotions, plenty of healing, Lesser Restoration, Zone of Truth, Animate Dead, and Revivify. In fact, you could make an argument that you could Twin the "reassert control" portion of Animate Dead since you are targeting a creature, your zombie/skeleton. Though that one is more up to your DM.

And then there are multiclassing uses. Divine Soul is the best Sorcerer subclass for a Soradin, bar none. It gives you things like Spiritual Weapon and Spirit Guardians, which are flat out improvements for any Paladin, and you still get all the great Sorcerer spells like Fireball, Haste, ect.

[sithlordnergal]

I could swear someone mentioned twinned revivify? Good grief! How murderous are your DMs that you can justify Revivify on a sorc so you can twin it?

I don't feel any need to burst anyone else's fun bubble with regard to playing a DSS. They're just not appealing to me. My mind hasn't been changed by the thread.

Murderous enough that a DM had a wizard cast Meteor Swarm on a level 10 party, while a different DM instantly K.O.ed me and two other party members with a double meteor swarm on round one. Both of my paladins were Oath of the Ancients and took half damage from the spells, and the double meteor swarm even had Circle of Power up to give advantage on the save. So we weren't murdered instantly and were able to retreat. But if we had gone down, twinned revivify would have been very nice.

[Tanarii]

Revivify is one of those spells that you want to have when you need it but you need it so rarely that it's sometimes hard to justify even preparing on a cleric; much less giving up an extremely precious sorc slot for. I could swear someone mentioned twinned revivify? Good grief! How murderous are your DMs that you can justify Revivify on a sorc so you can twin it?
I probably have 2 Pcs / henchmen die in a single fight, with others surviving, around once a month. It's one of those spells you frequently want for single target casting anyway (preferably one more than one party member), and you're going to have twin anyway on a Divine Sorc ...

[sophontteks]

Nope. It's an extra 1d4 healing per spell level, per casting, as long as they've got the sorcery points.

Same goes for Cure Wounds. I love having a Divine Soul in our party.
Ok, but then it comes at the cost of higher level spells, and more metamagic. A fireball at level 3 does 8d6 to everything in the AOE. A twinned healing word at level 3 does 3d4 to two people, and costs 3 metamagic to twin.
This is where other classes really outshine the divine soul. A shepherd druid at level 5 casts 1 healing word at level 1 to heal the target for 1d4+5 and everyone else for 5. This is far and away better then the divine soul upcasting and twinning the spell.

I could just twin polymorph if I'm going to upcast and turn them into full HP monsters.


Uh... What?
Care to explain how Bless gets old? Especially at the level where it's suddenly providing twice the benefit?
Because twinned haste, twinned polymorph, and twinned greater invisibility are better. With the limited known spells bless gets the chopping block vs. these gems. Sorcerers have to make hard choices like this, and they can't afford redundant concentration options. Generally you replace lower level spells with higher level ones that fill the same role, as these do.


I kind of feel like this is baiting a certain banned troll poster...
That....is hilarious. :smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin:


Twin Guiding Bolt
Twin Guidance
Twin Protection From Evil
Twin Sanctuary
Vs.
Twin Enlarge/Reduce
Twin Polymorph
Twin Haste
Twin greater invisibility.

If we had the spells known, we could pick these. We don't. The sorcerer spell list has better options.


Eh, the point of guiding bolt is granting advantage IMO, at least in comparison to spiritual weapon. But yes, swapping out spells is key to advancing for a Sorc (and warlock), so if you feel it doesn't have staying power then clearly it needs to go.

I wanted catapult on my shadow sorcerer because catapult + subtle spell = animate objects. I could not find a way to do it without losing something I thought was even more essential. It's the same here, though guiding bolt is even better. The only thing I can think to lose is healing word, but that feels wrong. I always feel that sorcerers have 1 spell short of what I need to make my builds work, and it sucks.


IMO Divine Soul is a really meta design for a subclass. I see it's intended niche as being cases where people just don't want to play cleric. And it's a good reason for it to exist.

Yes, sometimes you just gotta have Lesser/Greater Restoration, even just for narrative reasons. You don't also want to play into religious ideals for an extended period of time just because you want the ability not to suck when you don't save? Here you go, Divine Soul. Yes, it's a substitute/bootleg cleric. But clerics are so good when you need their class exclusive spells, that it actually makes for a good subclass to have access to them.

That is not to say the subclass doesn't have it's own branch of unique metamagic, spell and class feature interactions and combinations. You just have to do some research, since spell choices, just like with all sorcerer subclasses, are often unintuitive.

This mini-guide on the subject of a Hightened Spell Divine Soul Summoner I've found most compelling on geting this point across (and amazing food for character motivation): http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?548984-The-Divine-Soul-The-best-summoner-mini-guide

Though I have provided an example of build that's unique to the class, we still have to account for the possibility of you simply not liking what the subclass has to offer. Doesn't mean it's worthless in every possible context for every player ever.
Well, that's fair. I like the warlock one more because it has the lay on hands ability as a bonus action. I think that's whats keeping divine soul from greatness.


OP did a good job of reflecting my own thoughts on the DSS. I get that there are some clever things you can do with metamagics and a few cleric spells but it's not impressive enough to give up other, better archetypes for considering the extremely limited spells known of a sorc. Some of the favorites that keep coming up are first level and I just feel like a single level cleric dip is just so much more bang for the buck to grab a few cleric spells. I'm honestly surprised I don't dip a single level of cleric more often just for how meaty it is for just one level--great buffs, heals, armor, domain features. Extended spell on things like Aid and Death Ward to exploit leftover slots at the end of the day seems like one of the better tricks. A Ring of Spell Storing and some cooperation between the cleric and sorc could accomplish much of the same thing. Revivify is one of those spells that you want to have when you need it but you need it so rarely that it's sometimes hard to justify even preparing on a cleric; much less giving up an extremely precious sorc slot for. I could swear someone mentioned twinned revivify? Good grief! How murderous are your DMs that you can justify Revivify on a sorc so you can twin it?

I don't feel any need to burst anyone else's fun bubble with regard to playing a DSS. They're just not appealing to me. My mind hasn't been changed by the thread.
Ok this is the other thing holding divine soul back. They have the AC and HP of a sorcerer with cleric spells. A lot of this great stuff would just plain work better on a cleric. It's a pretty high bar beating a cleric, and I think they just plain do a better job with their own spells.

Its the same problem the storm sorcerer's have. All these abilities that work good on a really tough character, but those AC and HP buffs are not in the base class, they are Draconic only.

I think the two best sorcerer classes are draconic and shadow. One has the AC and HP to take hits. The other has darkness to avoid being hit. The rest of the pack are more vulnerable then any other caster, given the fact that wizards can easily learn shield, mage armor, and absorb elements without sacrifice. Taking these three staple defensive spells as a sorcerer is a huge investment.

[Spore]

I tend to not look at it as a "better/other" sorcerer but rather a "cleric with cantrips/a cleric that avoids the frontlines". I am specifically thinking Legend of Zelda's Zelda here. Someone that keeps back, buffs, blesses blasts with (holy) fire. She is simply not a Light Cleric. She is a Divine Soul Sorcerer.

Mechanically such a character would cast Mage Armor and Bless. She then would Spiritual Weapon and blast with Sacred Flame (and Firebolt, and Chill Touch). She would hand out Guidance and Prestidigitations. Yes on high levels a twinned Haste is better than Bless but imho the defensive nature of bless (bonus to saves) and the wider area (3+ creatures instead of exactly two meleers) is imho better fitting for most groups.

But yes, the flavor is amazing but it does not mesh well with most metamagics.

[sithlordnergal]

Because twinned haste, twinned polymorph, and twinned greater invisibility are better. With the limited known spells bless gets the chopping block vs. these gems. Sorcerers have to make hard choices like this, and they can't afford redundant concentration options. Generally you replace lower level spells with higher level ones that fill the same role, as these do.


There's only one issue the lowest level buff spell there is Haste. The other two are 4th level spells, and depending on the DM it could be a very, very bad idea to use Polymorph in any way outside of a mediocre debuff. I've seen plenty of DMs, especially here, try to force nerfs on Polymorph like "since you have the intelligence of a beast, you don't know who your allies are" or "if your character is cowardly in my eyes, you'll turn and run from battle if you're polymorphed".

Meanwhile, many of the good buff spells for Cleric are between levels 1 and 2. And in all honesty, since the spells you compared are all 1st level, you should probably compare 1st level Sorcerer spells. So to get spells like Guiding Bolt, Guidance, Protection From Evil, and Sanctuary you lose out stuff like Sleep, Chromatic Orb, Thunderwave, or Color Spray. Which gonna be honest, you can toss out Sleep and Color Spray pretty easily since they get useless at high levels, Guiding Bolt is a better version of Chromatic Orb, and Sanctuary has more utility then Thunderwave.

[sophontteks]

There's only one issue the lowest level buff spell there is Haste. The other two are 4th level spells, and depending on the DM it could be a very, very bad idea to use Polymorph in any way outside of a mediocre debuff. I've seen plenty of DMs, especially here, try to force nerfs on Polymorph like "since you have the intelligence of a beast, you don't know who your allies are" or "if your character is cowardly in my eyes, you'll turn and run from battle if you're polymorphed".

Meanwhile, many of the good buff spells for Cleric are between levels 1 and 2. And in all honesty, since the spells you compared are all 1st level, you should probably compare 1st level Sorcerer spells. So to get spells like Guiding Bolt, Guidance, Protection From Evil, and Sanctuary you lose out stuff like Sleep, Chromatic Orb, Thunderwave, or Color Spray. Which gonna be honest, you can toss out Sleep and Color Spray pretty easily since they get useless at high levels, Guiding Bolt is a better version of Chromatic Orb, and Sanctuary has more utility then Thunderwave.
They are all higher level because sorcerers can turn a lower level spell into a higher level spell every time they level up. With all the good options divine sorcerers have access to, level 1 spells all get the chopping block unless they are absolutely essential. They should be compared to higher level spells because we are choosing between keeping the low level spell, or learning the higher level spell.

In my build I kept mage armor and healing word as my level 1 spells. I swapped bless for revivify. I already have enlarge/reduce and haste as concentration options, so its redundant.

Cast twin polymorph as a healing spell. When your tanks are about to die twin them into beasts. Their intelligence is a non-factor. In terms of HP gained its one of the best healing spells in the game.

[BillyBobShorton]

A CHA blaster with cleric powers and metamagic is an archetype that sucks???? Maybe the OP should try to convince ppl why it's terrible.....

It's a great option for any party IMO. MIC DROP

[Pex]

Murderous enough that a DM had a wizard cast Meteor Swarm on a level 10 party, while a different DM instantly K.O.ed me and two other party members with a double meteor swarm on round one. Both of my paladins were Oath of the Ancients and took half damage from the spells, and the double meteor swarm even had Circle of Power up to give advantage on the save. So we weren't murdered instantly and were able to retreat. But if we had gone down, twinned revivify would have been very nice.

I'd rather cast Twin Get A Better DM.

[sithlordnergal]

They are all higher level because sorcerers can turn a lower level spell into a higher level spell every time they level up. With all the good options divine sorcerers have access to, level 1 spells all get the chopping block unless they are absolutely essential. They should be compared to higher level spells because we are choosing between keeping the low level spell, or learning the higher level spell.

In my build I kept mage armor and healing word as my level 1 spells. I swapped bless for revivify. I already have enlarge/reduce and haste as concentration options, so its redundant.

Cast twin polymorph as a healing spell. When your tanks are about to die twin them into beasts. Their intelligence is a non-factor. In terms of HP gained its one of the best healing spells in the game.

In terms of HP it is great, but again it is DM dependent. If you get a DM that dislikes Polymorph, it can easily be made into a terrible spell. Also, who bothers with turning low level spell slots into higher ones? That's a terrible waste of spell slots. You lose, at a minimum, a 1st and 2nd level slot for a single 3rd slot. You're much better off casting effective 1st level spells then doing something like that. Haste and Fireball may be good, but they're not "trash two spell slots" good.

[Pex]

Vs.
Twin Enlarge/Reduce
Twin Polymorph
Twin Haste
Twin greater invisibility.



It's not Vs; it's And. I only mentioned 1st level spells and a Cantrip.

[sophontteks]

It's not Vs; it's And. I only mentioned 1st level spells and a Cantrip.
The cantrip is cute. I like it. I'm not sure how practical it is. The first level ones will all be replaced by better spells like above. That's why its versus. Sorcerer don't have known spells to spare for all those extra cleric spells. If you want you can show your spell progression/metamagic.

[sithlordnergal]

The cantrip is cute. I like it. I'm not sure how practical it is. The first level ones will all be replaced by better spells like above. That's why its versus. Sorcerer don't have known spells to spare for all those extra cleric spells. If you want you can show your spell progression/metamagic.

Sure, I'll go through level 1 to 8. Also, I will be using the Good Alignment for this build, but I will be changing out Cure Wounds for a different Cleric Spell. This Cleric spell will still not count against spells known though, it just has to follow the "If you later replace this spell, you must replace it with a spell from the cleric spell list." parameter. I'll mark the free spell with an *

---Level 1---
Guiding Bolt
Shield
Fog Cloud

---Level 2---
Spiritual Weapon
Hold Person

---Level 3---
Haste
Fireball
Revivify*

---Level 4---
Freedom of Movement
Polymorph

Metamagic: Twin Spell, Quickened Spell

I have a pretty decent mix of Cleric and Sorcerer spells in there. I ignored the spells I never take, like Mage Armor or Greater Invisibility, since I've found Mage Armor is complete garbage unless you're in a campaign with no feats and no multiclassing, and the few times I've seen Greater Invisibility in play it has done nothing but wasted the Caster's turn. Its usually immediately dispelled, or whatever we're fighting gets to ignore invisibility through blindsight, true sight, termor sense, ect.. From my experience, it is a trap option.

[BloodSnake'sCha]

Well, it is a way to get cleric spells with charisma.

For my Paladin it is great as I only want a few cleric spells and to stay SAD.

[Kane0]

You can play a mage even when the rest of your group whines about needing a healer.

But then again, same can be said of celestial lock.

[Nhorianscum]

It'a worth noting that while Divine Soul enjoys the extended Aid/Ward combo it'a still a sorcerer and plays as such. We're not really diving into support hard until third metamagic at 11/12. Until then out primary spell choices are those that make for a better sorcerer not a wanabe cleric.

[sophontteks]

Sure, I'll go through level 1 to 8. Also, I will be using the Good Alignment for this build, but I will be changing out Cure Wounds for a different Cleric Spell. This Cleric spell will still not count against spells known though, it just has to follow the "If you later replace this spell, you must replace it with a spell from the cleric spell list." parameter. I'll mark the free spell with an *

---Level 1---
Guiding Bolt
Shield
Fog Cloud

---Level 2---
Spiritual Weapon
Hold Person

---Level 3---
Haste
Fireball
Revivify*

---Level 4---
Freedom of Movement
Polymorph

Metamagic: Twin Spell, Quickened Spell

I have a pretty decent mix of Cleric and Sorcerer spells in there. I ignored the spells I never take, like Mage Armor or Greater Invisibility, since I've found Mage Armor is complete garbage unless you're in a campaign with no feats and no multiclassing, and the few times I've seen Greater Invisibility in play it has done nothing but wasted the Caster's turn. Its usually immediately dispelled, or whatever we're fighting gets to ignore invisibility through blindsight, true sight, termor sense, ect.. From my experience, it is a trap option.
A couple recommendations.

Counterspell is 100% required. You don't like mage armor and greater invisibility because they get dispelled, but you have haste as an option. If haste is dispelled two party members lose their whole turn. Counterspell puts an end to this and now its the enemy who wasted their turn.

Quickened and twinned is too expensive. Even at your max level if you twin poly morph and quicken in a fight, you are already down to 2 sorcery points for the rest of the day. I'd recommend taking quickened as your third option and picking up empowered early instead. Empowered is low-key one of the best metamagic choices. Roll a few fireballs and see just how much more powerful they are when you re-roll anything 3 or lower. Its a 20% increase on average. If you only empower the bad rolls it could be increasing the damage by 200%-300%. This'll allow you to use twinned in more fights.

It's interesting that you don't have a healing spell.


It'a worth noting that while Divine Soul enjoys the extended Aid/Ward combo it'a still a sorcerer and plays as such. We're not really diving into support hard until third metamagic at 11/12. Until then out primary spell choices are those that make for a better sorcerer not a wanabe cleric.

That's a big problem. Most campaigns don't even get that far. On the other hand, it is worth noting that the divine soul definitely creeps ahead in the late game. From what I've gathered, divine soul is a bit weak levels 1-6, and creeps up to a top pick level 10 and up.

[Nhorianscum]

That's a big problem. Most campaigns don't even get that far. On the other hand, it is worth noting that the divine soul definitely creeps ahead in the late game. From what I've gathered, divine soul is a bit weak levels 1-6, and creeps up to a top pick level 10 and up.

This is a sorcerer issue not a Divine Soul issue.

The class has to wait till XL7 for a power spike (the spike is absurd tho) and all but 3 origins (stone giant and Draconic) need an early dip for survivability (and even the buff sorc origins like the dip) so we come into our own for our innitial builds in mid tier 2 and blow up in tier 3 with third metamagic, 14 origin feature, and finish out our dips.

The result is a lackluster but effective tier 1, a focused but overpoweringly strong tier 2, and a tier 3 that finnaly grants versatility while improving our tier 2 tricks.

For an effective tier 1 "Divine Soul" Orzhova Stone Sorcerer is the way to go.

[sophontteks]

This is a sorcerer issue not a Divine Soul issue.

The class has to wait till XL7 for a power spike (the spike is absurd tho) and all but 3 origins (stone giant and Draconic) need an early dip for survivability (and even the buff sorc origins like the dip) so we come into our own for our innitial builds in mid tier 2 and blow up in tier 3 with third metamagic, 14 origin feature, and finish out our dips.

The result is a lackluster but effective tier 1, a focused but overpoweringly strong tier 2, and a tier 3 that finnaly grants versatility while improving our tier 2 tricks.

For an effective tier 1 "Divine Soul" Orzhova Stone Sorcerer is the way to go.
I don't play UA and can't comment.

Shadow sorcerers don't need to dip for survivability because of enhanced darkness and hounds, both of which carry defensive properties. Draconic and Shadow are the top sorcerer picks and they are winning by a large margin IMO. Draconic power spikes are at level 1 and 6. Shadow sorcerer is at level 3 and 6. Divine Souls don't have these power spikes at all. Their power is almost entirely dependent on their expanded spell list. The expanded spell list is more of a side grade then an upgrade, especially early and mid game, so the problem is definitely their own.

[djreynolds]

Buffer/Support Build

Single Classed Divine Soul 1-20
Mountain Dwarf
8(10)|14|15(17)|8|12|14 -> 10|14|18|8|13|16
Wear Half Plate from Dwarven Armor Training



This is actually a nice build. Mountain dwarves really shine as a sorcerer or wizard or warlock

__________________________________________________ _________________________________________________

Can you make a better divine soul by just going draconic sorcerer/cleric or sorcerer/bard?

And thou one could multiclass a sorcerer and cleric, you would be behind the power curve of spell access

They seem like a cool archetype, but how does divine soul compare to celestial warlock?

So the question is just how powerful is twinning spells, and twinning clerical spells?

And another question is, is access to just a few cleric spells actually enough?

[Pex]

The cantrip is cute. I like it. I'm not sure how practical it is. The first level ones will all be replaced by better spells like above. That's why its versus. Sorcerer don't have known spells to spare for all those extra cleric spells. If you want you can show your spell progression/metamagic.

1st level spells don't have to be replaced. They can remain relevant through out the campaign. We're 13-14th level in one of my games, and Bless, Sanctuary, Guiding Bolt, and Protection From Evil & Good are still commonly used. We tried Haste a few times, but the spellcaster kept losing concentration because of reasons the character would benefit one round of Haste then lose an entire turn. It was agreed to no longer use the spell. Polymorph is nice, but we'd rather have our class features. The Druid will still use it occasionally though.

For Divine Soul specifically, there's also playing the game diversity. Sometimes you just don't want to be casting Fireball as soon as you reach 5th level for the umpteenth time. Being optimal is fine but not necessary. Obviously don't be incompetent, but the best spells is not always necessary, and people have different opinions on what is the best spell anyway.

[sithlordnergal]

Counterspell is 100% required. You don't like mage armor and greater invisibility because they get dispelled, but you have haste as an option. If haste is dispelled two party members lose their whole turn. Counterspell puts an end to this and now its the enemy who wasted their turn.

Quickened and twinned is too expensive. Even at your max level if you twin poly morph and quicken in a fight, you are already down to 2 sorcery points for the rest of the day. I'd recommend taking quickened as your third option and picking up empowered early instead. Empowered is low-key one of the best metamagic choices. Roll a few fireballs and see just how much more powerful they are when you re-roll anything 3 or lower. Its a 20% increase on average. If you only empower the bad rolls it could be increasing the damage by 200%-300%. This'll allow you to use twinned in more fights.

It's interesting that you don't have a healing spell.

I generally leave Counterspell to the Wizards and Bards, though you do have a point. Replacing Fog Cloud with Counterspell would work. And true, I did go with no healing on this build. Though I will admit, Healing Word is a spell I considered.

Heh, and I actually dislike Mage Armor because I just don't see the point of the spell. It's so easy to get Light and/or Medium Armor that it feels like a waste of a spell and spell slot. All you need is a single level in Bard, Cleric, Druid, Fighter, Paladin, Ranger or Rogue, or a single feat.

And yeah, Haste can be dispelled, but it has the advantage of not being shut down by anything with a special sight ability like Greater Invisibility. I don't know about other campaigns, but for the most part when a caster tried to make use of Greater Invisibility or even just normal Invisibility they were informed they could still be seen after they had cast the spell. They eventually gave up on the spell.

[stoutstien]

It's funny, I've always seen shadow as the most under preforming of the origins tied with storm. On paper they look great but shadow burn sorcerer points fast. Sorcerers already have a good use for them with metamagic so adding a bunch of class features that all take alot of sorcerer points is of no interest to me.

[sophontteks]

1st level spells don't have to be replaced. They can remain relevant through out the campaign. We're 13-14th level in one of my games, and Bless, Sanctuary, Guiding Bolt, and Protection From Evil & Good are still commonly used. We tried Haste a few times, but the spellcaster kept losing concentration because of reasons the character would benefit one round of Haste then lose an entire turn. It was agreed to no longer use the spell. Polymorph is nice, but we'd rather have our class features. The Druid will still use it occasionally though.

For Divine Soul specifically, there's also playing the game diversity. Sometimes you just don't want to be casting Fireball as soon as you reach 5th level for the umpteenth time. Being optimal is fine but not necessary. Obviously don't be incompetent, but the best spells is not always necessary, and people have different opinions on what is the best spell anyway.

I'm don't think you understand. I'm not saying first level spells aren't good. Bards, clerics, druids, and wizards make great use of them throughout the game. Sorcerers can't. They don't have the known spells to spare holding onto level 1 spells. They also have the unique ability to turn level 1 slots into more metamagic, so they are under no obligation to use their first level slots on spells either.

I'd be interested to see your sorcerer spell progression. I can't find a way to fit any more then 2-3 first level spells without giving up on essential higher level spells.

It sounds like you've nailed the divine sorcerer's big problem. You can't use haste because he keeps losing concentration. Draconic and shadow sorcerers have a much better time avoiding hits. In this case you are resorting to lesser spells because the class doesn't have the necessary features to make the stronger options work.


I generally leave Counterspell to the Wizards and Bards, though you do have a point. Replacing Fog Cloud with Counterspell would work. And true, I did go with no healing on this build. Though I will admit, Healing Word is a spell I considered.

Heh, and I actually dislike Mage Armor because I just don't see the point of the spell. It's so easy to get Light and/or Medium Armor that it feels like a waste of a spell and spell slot. All you need is a single level in Bard, Cleric, Druid, Fighter, Paladin, Ranger or Rogue, or a single feat.

And yeah, Haste can be dispelled, but it has the advantage of not being shut down by anything with a special sight ability like Greater Invisibility. I don't know about other campaigns, but for the most part when a caster tried to make use of Greater Invisibility or even just normal Invisibility they were informed they could still be seen after they had cast the spell. They eventually gave up on the spell.
I generally play up to level 10, so multiclassing and feats are a big investment. You are coming from the opposite point of view, so I can understand this.


It's funny, I've always seen shadow as the most under preforming of the origins tied with storm. On paper they look great but shadow burn sorcerer points fast. Sorcerers already have a good use for them with metamagic so adding a bunch of class features that all take alot of sorcerer points is of no interest to me.
This is due to bad metamagic selection, which is a common problem in builds. If a shadow sorcerer picks metamagics like quickened and twinned, they are competing with darkness and hounds. Instead of competing with darkness and hounds they should pick metamagics that work with them. Even Treeantmonk made this critical mistake in his shadow sorcerer guide. I love treeantmonk, but I don't think his shadow sorcerer build was very good.

TheUser wrote a great sorcerer guide here:
https://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/rJHwSSR0e

In it he does a great job explaining why Subtle and empowered are the strongest metamagic choices. A shadow sorcerer who picks these will have no problems using darkness and hounds through the adventuring day. Subtle will allow him to contribute outside combat and avoid counterspell. Empowered will increase the damage of blasting spells. First level spells can be mulched up to gain more castings of darkness and hounds. Doing so allows the shadow sorcerer to use more metamagic then any other archtype, as there is no ineffeciency with turning spells into more castings of hounds and darkness, and they are both much better then equivalent 2nd and 3rd level spells.

I posted my own shadow sorcerer build in the first page, and he's quite a beast. Check him out if you wanna see a good way to use the shadow sorcerer's abilities. The enhanced darkness lasts 10 minutes, so it can be cast before combat begins. I cast it on a rock and put the rock in my bag. When I want darkness I take the rock out as a free item interaction. It's incredibly strong, and hounds is even stronger. MY biggest concern is that the DM will begin scaling up encounters.

[Tanarii]

Can you even trade out the free Bless? Or is the assumption youre taking the free Cure Wounds and selecting Bless with one of your 2 first level spells you start with?

Edit: soph, part of what I'm seeing in this thread is you have some very specific ideas about the optimization value of various spells. I can guarantee that is dependent at least someone on you specific tables, but thats valid because those are the tables you're playing at. But it does mean you may not see some of the value of other builds to others at their specific tables. And of course not all tables care so much about that tight optimization.

[stoutstien]

I'm don't think you understand. I'm not saying first level spells aren't good. Bards, clerics, druids, and wizards make great use of them throughout the game. Sorcerers can't. They don't have the known spells to spare holding onto level 1 spells. They also have the unique ability to turn level 1 slots into more metamagic, so they are under no obligation to use their first level slots on spells either.

I'd be interested to see your sorcerer spell progression. I can't find a way to fit any more then 2-3 first level spells without giving up on essential higher level spells.

It sounds like you've nailed the divine sorcerer's big problem. You can't use haste because he keeps losing concentration. Draconic and shadow sorcerers have a much better time avoiding hits. In this case you are resorting to lesser spells because the class doesn't have the necessary features to make the stronger options work.


I generally play up to level 10, so multiclassing and feats are a big investment. You are coming from the opposite point of view, so I can understand this.


This is due to bad metamagic selection, which is a common problem in builds. If a shadow sorcerer picks metamagics like quickened and twinned, they are competing with darkness and hounds. Instead of competing with darkness and hounds they should pick metamagics that work with them. Even Treeantmonk made this critical mistake in his shadow sorcerer guide. I love treeantmonk, but I don't think his shadow sorcerer build was very good.

TheUser wrote a great sorcerer guide here:
https://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/rJHwSSR0e

In it he does a great job explaining why Subtle and empowered are the strongest metamagic choices. A shadow sorcerer who picks these will have no problems using darkness and hounds through the adventuring day. Subtle will allow him to contribute outside combat and avoid counterspell. Empowered will increase the damage of blasting spells. First level spells can be mulched up to gain more castings of darkness and hounds. Doing so allows the shadow sorcerer to use more metamagic then any other archtype, as there is no ineffeciency with turning spells into more castings of hounds and darkness, and they are both much better then equivalent 2nd and 3rd level spells.

I posted my own shadow sorcerer build in the first page, and he's quite a beast. Check him out if you wanna see a good way to use the shadow sorcerer's abilities. The enhanced darkness lasts 10 minutes, so it can be cast before combat begins. I cast it on a rock and put the rock in my bag. When I want darkness I take the rock out as a free item interaction. It's incredibly strong, and hounds is even stronger. MY biggest concern is that the DM will begin scaling up encounters.

Shadow make good selfish blasters. I find blasting boring. Matter of taste more than power. Any caster can play blaster but sorcerers can do buff/debuff/cc combos that no other class can do period.
I could see some interesting combos using the hounds ablity to cause disadvantage on spell saves and single target debuff/cc spells but I've yet to sit down and build one. Waiting til lv 6 for a highten spell effect. is rough but if had to chance to play a high lv one shot I'd consider it.

Trying to compare DS and shadow is like comparing Moon druids vs dream. Both are powerful at what they do but not going to fair well of they try to do both jobs at once.

[sophontteks]

Shadow make good selfish blasters. I find blasting boring. Matter of taste more than power. Any caster can play blaster but sorcerers can do buff/debuff/cc combos that no other class can do period.
I could see some interesting combos using the hounds ablity to cause disadvantage on spell saves and single target debuff/cc spells but I've yet to sit down and build one. Waiting til lv 6 for a highten spell effect. is rough but if had to chance to play a high lv one shot I'd consider it.

Trying to compare DS and shadow is like comparing Moon druids vs dream. Both are powerful at what they do but not going to fair well of they try to do both jobs at once.
Hmmm.. I only have 2 blasting spells. There is not a high investment for good blasting. Most the DS builds make the exact same investment. Shadow is just better at it. Darkness makes him a better blaster and provides a solid defense. Empowered is a minimal investment to make him a top tier blaster.

I still have what no other caster can do, to expand on your list. No other caster can subtle spell.


No other caster can stand directly in front of someone, gagged, with their arms and legs fully shackled, and cause a swarm of flesh-eating gnats to rush into all their orifices with no hint that this horrendous nightmare was actually the cause of a spell. Gotta love phantasmal force. The material component is a bit of fleece, so no problems there.

No other caster can cast spells while hiding without revealing their position. No sound, no trace. Suddenly the leader is wailing away at his former comrades. They don't even know anyone else is around. Enemies abound is great. Sure the spell may break when his friends swing back, but the drama this created is still alive and well. They don't know that one of them was influenced by a spell, so they are going to keep on fighting. Hey, why not subtle cast another phantasmal force or enemies abound for good measure.

No other caster can cause the captain of the guard to suddenly start striking nobles down in the middle of a ball until the remaining guards drag him away in shackles. Or maybe its one of the nobles we want to get rid of, or one of the servants. Swinging wildly at other nobles in a formal setting tends to land one in prison quick.

No other caster can suddenly materialize any forms of identification or object of interest as if they had it the entire time. "I am a noble from nobbleberry. Here are my papers" Hazah! The phantasm of papers proving you are a noble from nobbleberry suddenly appear in the mind of the authority. Or hey, "I have the gold you need right here." "We've found your missing child." "Would you really be so bold to attack us in front of the guard standing right there?"

All of this was another investment of 2 spells and a cheap metamagic, so I'm on a roll. I still have all the darkness shenanigans as a defensive "Now you see me, now you don't" free action, and hounds as a simutaneous detect hidden creatures, put hp between me and the enemy, free attack against the enemy every round, and persistant heightened spell.

Can you even trade out the free Bless? Or is the assumption youre taking the free Cure Wounds and selecting Bless with one of your 2 first level spells you start with?

Edit: soph, part of what I'm seeing in this thread is you have some very specific ideas about the optimization value of various spells. I can guarantee that is dependent at least someone on you specific tables, but thats valid because those are the tables you're playing at. But it does mean you may not see some of the value of other builds to others at their specific tables. And of course not all tables care so much about that tight optimization.

Yes you can. Someone else on the forums pointed it out to me the last time I slandered Divine Soul sorcerers :smallbiggrin:
"You learn an additional spell based on that affinity, as shown below. It is a sorcerer spell for you, but it doesn't count against your number of sorcerer spells known. If you later replace this spell, you must replace it with a spell from the cleric spell list."

Everything I'm saying works with the rules as intended without houserules. If you think something isn't RAW let me know. I'm pretty sure I've covered everything well in the build I'm using.

[sithlordnergal]

Can you even trade out the free Bless? Or is the assumption youre taking the free Cure Wounds and selecting Bless with one of your 2 first level spells you start with?

So, you can change out the free spell you get from your alignment, it just has to be a Cleric spell

[qube]

Wait, why am I casting radiance on my hound? I can just cast it so the target is on the edge of the AOE. The hound is still in its own square when grappling, out of the AOE.grapple?? your hound can't do that!

"On its turn, it can move only toward its target by the most direct route, and it can use its action only to attack its target"

And darkness. Its greater invisibility with 10 times the duration and the ability to be activated/deactivated as a free action. When is that going out of style?when you cast sickening radiance, for instance. Concentration, it's a thing.

The first level ones will all be replaced by better spells like above. That's why its versus. yet you ignore the fact you can cast more level 1 spells then level 4 spells.

By what level do you reckon you can cast a twinned lvl 4 spell in each of your 6 combats per day?


The cantrip is cute. I like it. I'm not sure how practical it is.it's broken AF. any skill check, any character does that you can forsee, gets 1d4.
Rogue needs to disable a trap? Here rrogue, get a +1d4.
Party needs to jump a carvern? You get a d4, You get a d4, You get a d4, ...
Bard needs to chat up ... anyone ? +1d4 right your way
might be an ambush? Cast guidance in case we need a perception check

You're "not sure" how practical Guidance is ? Sorry, what ? At this point I would ask some reflection - in that if you have this little experience, you really think you're in a position to judge divine soul?


So, you can change out the free spell you get from your alignment, it just has to be a Cleric spell holy ****, you're correct. you can even exchange it for a higher level cleric spell !

[Yunru]

grapple?? your hound can't do that!

"On its turn, it can move only toward its target by the most direct route, and it can use its action only to attack its target"

I mean, I don't agree with his conclusion, but the hound can definitely grapple (at least from what you've quoted) as a grapple is a special attack.

[stoutstien]

I mean, I don't agree with his conclusion, but the hound can definitely grapple (at least from what you've quoted) as a grapple is a special attack.
DM call. I'd allow it but a RAW DM might point out you need a free hand to grapple.

[sophontteks]

grapple?? your hound can't do that!

"On its turn, it can move only toward its target by the most direct route, and it can use its action only to attack its target"
Oh my sweet summer child. Grappling is an attack. It's a part of the attack action. There is nothing limiting how the hound attacks.


when you cast sickening radiance, for instance. Concentration, it's a thing.

I can't have sickening radiance up before the fight begins, but I can have darkness up before the fight begins. I can have it in my pocket ready to go any time I need advantage, to not be seen, for the enemy to have disadvantage. This is a minor inconvenience of recasting darkness after the fight, not darkness being useless.


yet you ignore the fact you can cast more level 1 spells then level 4 spells.

By what level do you reckon you can cast a twinned lvl 4 spell in each of your 6 combats per day?


Or I can turn them into more metamagic.
Feel free to contribute your spell progression and build. I can't fit more then 2-3 level 1 spells before I'm eating into higher level spells I deem necessary. I feel like talks without the build behind them are making more known spells magically appear. You are not showing what sacrifices needed to be made to attain that lower level spell. That's why I requested actual builds. When people are talking about having access to 5-6 first level spells with the sorcerer's 2+1 spell per level I'm a little concerned about how many other spells they even have.


it's broken AF. any skill check, any character does that you can forsee, gets 1d4.
Rogue needs to disable a trap? Here rrogue, get a +1d4.
Party needs to jump a carvern? You get a d4, You get a d4, You get a d4, ...
Bard needs to chat up ... anyone ? +1d4 right your way
might be an ambush? Cast guidance in case we need a perception check

You're "not sure" how practical Guidance is ? Sorry, what ? At this point I would ask some reflection - in that if you have this little experience, you really think you're in a position to judge divine soul?

We are talking about twinning guidance, not guidance itself. If you are going to be smart make sure you've read what you are replying to.

[Pex]

I'm not saying a Sorcerer will have 5 or 6 first level spells at the same time forever. I am saying there are plenty of first level spells to choose from a sorcerer player might want to keep as the levels progress. It's up to the individual which ones he wants. If you don't want to keep any that's fine and your business. Others differ.

[sophontteks]

I'm not saying a Sorcerer will have 5 or 6 first level spells at the same time forever. I am saying there are plenty of first level spells to choose from a sorcerer player might want to keep as the levels progress. It's up to the individual which ones he wants. If you don't want to keep any that's fine and your business. Others differ.
It's not even a matter of want.

We get 4 first level spells at level 2 as a divine soul.
-Shield/mage armor/absorb elements- That holy trio of first level defensive spells will always be a top pick. We can't even take all three of these, even 2 is tough.
-Healing word- Kind of a must pick for a divine soul. One build here didn't have it, which was pretty interesting.
-Bless- Our class spell.
-Guiding bolt- Great direct damage spell.

At level 3 we need to lose one of these. Otherwise we only have 1 level 2 spell. Spiritual weapon, suggestion, blindness/deafness, hold person are among the things up on the table.
At level 5 we have to choose between losing one of those three rocking level 2 spells, or another one of our level 1 spells. They are standing up against fireball, revivify, and counterspell here.

So we start with 4 level 1 spells. We end at 2 or 3. Keeping 3 took the loss of a second level spell. Even progressing further we'll be hard-pressed to make room for more level 1 spells, and we didn't even get to keep the essential first level spells, let alone make room for protection from good/evil, and sanctuary. Then at 10th level, when we finally have a handle on our known spells, our known spell progression is halved.

[Tanarii]

I have to say if I'm going to end up with 2* first level spells, it'd probably be Healing Word, and either Shield or (extended the day before) Mage Armor. Depending on if play shows me I have to cast 4 Healing Words per LR / convert level 1 slots to SP, or that I have level 1 slots to spare for Shield spells.

*thanks for the RAW on the freebie spell.

[sithlordnergal]

holy ****, you're correct. you can even exchange it for a higher level cleric spell !

Don't worry, I didn't realize it at first either. I had to reread the thing before I caught that little bit

[TalksAlone]

Well, I think the main problem here is this: the best spells of any one class are the best because they belong to that class. And often we think of good spells as good spells and just end the thought there.

Simple example of where this happens: Greenflame and Booming Blades are overall terrible spells for almost all Wizard builds ever, but are marvellous for EK. Because they are fundamentally different classes: the former is a long range squishy, the later a short range tank.

Why wouldn't it be the case for Clerics and Divine Souls? The pattern repeats only reversed: the former is a short range tank, the latter a long range squishy.

Take for one thing Healing Word: it will never work for Sorcerers. The main cool feature of the spell is picking up fallen allies. You are not outliving your allies as a Sorcerer. Ever. A Cleric accomplishes this by being the single most tanky caster class, so it's basically free/intuitive for them.

The way this works for Clerics is "I leverage my durability to help my allies deal damage when they would otherwise be unable to, and through them I contribute to DPR". Sorcerers are neither durable, nor lack or depend on others to deal damage. There is no reason Healing Word should be overly good for them, and never a must pick. Buy healing potions for ocasional pinches.

Controversial an opinion as it may be, the same goes for Bless: it does nothing to protect the Sorcerer, competes for the slots of spells that do, and adds damage the Sorcerer doesn't lack. It's simply not good for them.

That's why I advocate that for low levels instead of getting stuck on the Healing Word + Bless Cleric thing, we look at Sanctuary + Bane.

Bane is often overlooked because it doesn't suit the cleric as well as Bless, but it's a phenomenal spell. It protects the whole party from all attacks from 3+ enemies and craps on their saves. It targets a Cha save, wich is often very weak, and requires only one save to act for the full duration. It's a great opener when dealing with boss-type encounters and makes every other subsequent spell better. And you can get it for free from your class feature.

Sanctuary is an incredibly versatile, non-concentration buff. It can counter spells, attacks and redirect them to more resilient targets. And targets Wis, an often weak save that gets crapped on further by Bane (plus it can help keep Bane up, and therefore yourself and allies). Every once in a while it may even make enemy spells useless given that your protected target is distant enough from your party.

We can even dive deeper onto the spell combinations and go for full debuff mode. Get Frostbite as a cantrip: Deals cold damage to a target on a failed Con save and causes disadvantage on it's next attack. And/or Toll the dead for the big damage to targets with missing HP on a Wis save. Blindness/Deafness is one of the best and only non-concentration debuffs that targets saves and disturbs both casting and attacking. Traditional DPR spells are still open to us. Eyebite is overall amazing with Sanctuary. I'd have to research more to go on, but still the point is made.

IMO, Divine Soul can be extremely potent so long as you don't try to make a Cleric.

[Zuras]

This has been an enlightening discussion, but I still haven’t read anything that gets me excited about actually playing a Divine Soul.

I personally find the subclass disappointing because the access to an entire second spell list feels like it should provide significant versatility, but a Divine Soul ends up needing to be just as laser focused on its spell and metamagic synergy as any other sorcerer, if not more so.

A 5th level cleric has access to twice as many spells as a DS sorcerer, and can change over half of them as needed. If I want to play a support caster, it just seems like a cleric, bard, druid or celestial warlock will do a better job, unless I just want to play a standard sorcerer who can also cast cure wounds.

[qube]

I personally find the subclass disappointing because the access to an entire second spell list feels like it should provide significant versatility, but a Divine Soul ends up needing to be just as laser focused on its spell and metamagic synergy as any other sorcerer, if not more so.that's game balance. You can't get something without sacreficing something else.

a larger spell list is an obvious powerboost, as you can pick the better of the two spells (ex. guiding bolt over catapult).
But f you want even more - if you want versatility as well, you'd need to sacrifice somewhere else. in this case, your laser focus


A 5th level cleric has access to twice as many spells as a DS sorcerer, and can change over half of them as needed. If I want to play a support caster, it just seems like a cleric, bard, druid or celestial warlock will do a better job, unless I just want to play a standard sorcerer who can also cast cure wounds.that got me thinking on how the same could be said for the Eldritch knight... If you wanna play support caster spellcaster, play a spellcaster, not some hybrid class. The end up needing to be just as laser focused on its spell and metamagic synergy their weapon based combat as any other fighter.

The DS's job isn't to make you feel "excited" about mixing cleric and sorcerer, it's to give people who want it, the opportunity to play it. And it does so. On first glance, it's not gonna give you OP combos - but it's not gonna be "terrible"



Divine Soul: If you can't decide between playing a divine caster or an arcane caster, play a Divine Soul.
~~ rpgbot.com guide to sorcery, rating it in it's top tier with dragon & shadow; wild & storm get lower ratings

The Divine Soul provides a ton of versatility, if not a whole lot of potency, compared to other archetypes by opening your spell choices up to the entire Cleric list.
~~ Gitp's handbook to sorcerer, rating all the subclasses on equal tier

Even guru's advanced guide to sorcery, used as source by the OP, doesn't call it terrible or even bad.
The most negatve it is


This archetype takes a bit of time to take off. There are a lot
of Cleric spells that don't exactly work with the sorcerer;

Oppositely, it notes


Spiritual Weapon should also be on every Divine Soul's list
of mandatory spells. It doesn't require concentration and
scales well with higher level slots.
If you take subtle spell Silence becomes an anticasting zone for
everyone else but you, which is horrendously strong.
It gets real at level 9 when Geas and 5th level Bestow
Curse come into play. Subtle or Heightened Geas is is
immense; 30 days of a person who will join you on a quest
and Heighten Bestow Curse with a level 5 slot is a real kick
in the teeth for any big baddy.

[MrStabby]

I think I agree with many of the OP's points but can't agree with the conclusion that it is terrible. Over-rated, possibly. But not actively bad.

If we say that combat power is the average utility of the best thing you can do in combat each round, then addition of a few options can make a difference if they are useful enough and importantly different enough to the other abilities you have.

Even just throwing bless and healing word into the mix is a big shift. Bless is a great use of a level 1 spell slot and enables the PC to be proactive with little resource cost. Healing word to revive the fallen is simply superb when you need it - what can be tough on other spellcasters due to a spell as an action being a cantrip is less of an issue as a twinned firebolt is a respectable addition.


I had considered one as a character for a recent game; we were advised we could use the revised ranger so I was keen to do so. Adding some DS to boost spellcasting really appealed. Shield, Healing word, bless, enhance ability, animate dead all on top of the rangers spells is solid. It lets me play a caster whilst minimising investment in a casting stat. I can wander round with Cha 13 and have a broad choice of good spells that don't rely on a good stat.

If you are looking for a multiclass, this has some nice features.

[JackPhoenix]

Simple example of where this happens: Greenflame and Booming Blades are overall terrible spells for almost all Wizard builds ever, but are marvellous for EK. Because they are fundamentally different classes: the former is a long range squishy, the later a short range tank.

They are terrible spells for EK too, because you're losing Extra Attacks if you cast a spell instead of taking an attack action, and proper fighter attack (and stuff that key from attack action like PAM or GWM) adds more damage than the extra from the cantrips. Well, except betwen 7th and 11th level.


Why wouldn't it be the case for Clerics and Divine Souls? The pattern repeats only reversed: the former is a short range tank, the latter a long range squishy.

Take for one thing Healing Word: it will never work for Sorcerers. The main cool feature of the spell is picking up fallen allies. You are not outliving your allies as a Sorcerer. Ever. A Cleric accomplishes this by being the single most tanky caster class, so it's basically free/intuitive for them.

And sorcerers accomplish it by... not being stuck in melee with enemies. You know, like any proper long ranged caster.


Controversial an opinion as it may be, the same goes for Bless: it does nothing to protect the Sorcerer, competes for the slots of spells that do, and adds damage the Sorcerer doesn't lack. It's simply not good for them.

It protects the sorcerer (and everyone else in the party) by improving his saves, and adds damage to other party members, not just to the sorcerer. It's one of the best spells in the game for a reason. Besides, sorcerer is more likely to maintain concentration on spells (not just Bless) than a cleric by virtue of being proficient in Con saves, and not rushing into melee (not that many clerics should do that either).


IMO, Divine Soul can be extremely potent so long as you don't try to make a Cleric.

That's kinda given.

[Spiritchaser]

GFB and BB?

This is a bit of a side note, as it relates more to MC sorcerers, and only MC sorcerers not using the PHB +1 rule...

Divine Soul has a very nice contribution to GFB and BB builds that use shadow blade.

Thaumaturgy is just hands down better than control flames when it comes to dimming the lights.

[Zuras]

that got me thinking on how the same could be said for the Eldritch knight... If you wanna play support caster spellcaster, play a spellcaster, not some hybrid class. The end up needing to be just as laser focused on its spell and metamagic synergy their weapon based combat as any other fighter.

The DS's job isn't to make you feel "excited" about mixing cleric and sorcerer, it's to give people who want it, the opportunity to play it. And it does so. On first glance, it's not gonna give you OP combos - but it's not gonna be "terrible"



Divine Soul: If you can't decide between playing a divine caster or an arcane caster, play a Divine Soul.
~~ rpgbot.com guide to sorcery, rating it in it's top tier with dragon & shadow; wild & storm get lower ratings

The Divine Soul provides a ton of versatility, if not a whole lot of potency, compared to other archetypes by opening your spell choices up to the entire Cleric list.
~~ Gitp's handbook to sorcerer, rating all the subclasses on equal tier



I would agree that access to the Cleric list gives more versatility to the types of builds you can make, but you only get one extra spell-it doesn’t really let you make a character that is versatile in more situations-for any capabilities you add you will likely need to give up something else.

I agree with your point about the Eldritch Knight, and would extend that to the Arcane Trickster as well. In both cases, the subclasses under-perform unless you use their spellcasting abilities to enhance their primary class abilities.

Sure, this is balanced, but I still see many players who are disappointed when they hit the middle levels and feel the 1/3 casting progression bite at the beginning of tier 2. This was clearly felt in playtesting as well, since both of the 1/3 caster archetypes get abilities to force disadvantage on spell saves right before they hit Tier 3, and the EK gets War Magic and the Blade cantrips to help out as well.

I will also admit that my opinion of the DS is hopelessly biased anyway, since I find the Sorcerer as a whole underwhelming, and have never played one. As a DM, it is the class I have seen most commonly abandoned by players in my campaigns, and the class to most frequently feel completely ineffective in an encounter due to having no appropriate spells to cast. I normally steer players away from it until they have at least a moderate amount of system mastery with the 5e rules.

[qube]

Oh my sweet summer child. Grappling is an attack. It's a part of the attack action. There is nothing limiting how the hound attacks.sure there is. The fact that unless specified, you don't control your summoned creatures. And considering that grappling is not part of the direwolves M.O. , you're rellying on some SERIOUS DM goodwill.

... and with serious DM goodwil, anything can be OP.


I can't have sickening radiance up before the fight begins, but I can have darkness up before the fight begins. I can have it in my pocket ready to go any time I need advantage, to not be seen, for the enemy to have disadvantage. This is a minor inconvenience of recasting darkness after the fight, not darkness being useless. you do know casting darkness costs 2 spell points and only lasts 10 minutes, right?


We are talking about twinning guidance, not guidance itself. If you are going to be smart make sure you've read what you are replying to. Consider you wrote,

The cantrip is cute. I like it. I'm not sure how practical it is.
not "Twinning that cantrip", or "modifying that cnatrip" or "the use of that cantrip", ...


I would agree that access to the Cleric list gives more versatility to the types of builds you can make, but you only get one extra spell-it doesn’t really let you make a character that is versatile in more situations-for any capabilities you add you will likely need to give up something else.yes, but from my experience, I don't buy into the "OMG, sorcerer is starved for spells".


when I play sorcerer, I cover four bases first:
single target offense (ex. banishment)
multi target offense (ex. fireball)
defense (ex. shield)
offensive cantrip
3 spells. Anything else is just gravy.
want to go for utility? well, take some utility spells.
want to go offense? take some extra spells that target different saves, and/or use different elements
want to take some extra defense? take some defense spells
...
... but you'll note, whatever you want, the answer is "take some spell that does that for you". Now, your spellslot are limited, sure, but you shouldn't want to be able to do everything, anyways.

And that is essentially where the divine sorcerer shines. because, you know what's a serious boost to "take some spell that does that for you"? Getting a huge amout of additional options.

[Man_Over_Game]

This has been an enlightening discussion, but I still haven’t read anything that gets me excited about actually playing a Divine Soul.

I personally find the subclass disappointing because the access to an entire second spell list feels like it should provide significant versatility, but a Divine Soul ends up needing to be just as laser focused on its spell and metamagic synergy as any other sorcerer, if not more so.

A 5th level cleric has access to twice as many spells as a DS sorcerer, and can change over half of them as needed. If I want to play a support caster, it just seems like a cleric, bard, druid or celestial warlock will do a better job, unless I just want to play a standard sorcerer who can also cast cure wounds.

The Divine Soul Sorcerer's strength is all about how synergies work together. To give you an idea of what I mean, take this example:

Someone has Eldritch Blast. Normally, they do one blast of damage each round (BDPR).

They can double their damage with Agonizing Blast (x2), gaining +1 BDPR.

Or the can double their fire rate with Quicken Spell (x2), gaining +1 BDPR.

But if they combine both, they're now at x4 effectiveness, gaining +3 BDPR out of two features.

In the same way, Sorcerers are able to make the most out of Concentration spells, due to the fact that you can only ever have 1 Concentration slot being used, and enhancing that means you're getting more value out of Concentration than you are supposed to for a particular level. A good example is a Twinned Haste.

Divine Soul grants access to Cleric spells, which either:

Have some sort of on-hit effect, being more effective with quantity than damage (Guiding Bolt)
Rely on Concentration (Bless).


Not only that, but the Divine Soul goes even FURTHER, having features that increase their ability to maintain Concentration.

Total, you have:

A Class that starts with Constitution Saving Throws
Metamagics that enhance Concentration spells to be more valuable than they're originally designed to be.
The Class Spell List with some of the best Concentration spells.
Features that enhance Concentration checks.


Many of the non-Concentration spells of a Cleric are ones that still would greatly benefit from a Sorcerer's Metamagic. Cast Revivify as a Bonus Action or at range. Cast Guiding Bolt on two enemies, causing Advantage for allies twice (or Quicken it to grant yourself Advantage).

And I don't think any of this is unintentional. Saying the Divine Soul Sorcerer is bad is, to me, a lot like saying that an Eldritch Blast build is bad for focusing on several forms of synergy. The difference is, though, is that the Divine Soul Sorcerer synergizes with many different spells, when the EBlaster only synergizes with one.

[patchyman]

Many of the non-Concentration spells of a Cleric are ones that still would greatly benefit from a Sorcerer's Metamagic. Cast Revivify as a Bonus Action or at range. Cast Guiding Bolt on two enemies, causing Advantage for allies twice (or Quicken it to grant yourself Advantage).

And I don't think any of this is unintentional.

One last point that I haven’t seen on this thread: since both sorcerer and clerics spells are on your list, you can use both cleric and sorcerer spell scrolls, giving you access to a much larger of spells you can cast at the cost of a consumable magic item.

[Man_Over_Game]

One last point that I haven’t seen on this thread: since both sorcerer and clerics spells are on your list, you can use both cleric and sorcerer spell scrolls, giving you access to a much larger of spells you can cast at the cost of a consumable magic item.

This is even better with the fact that Sorcerers can modify scrolls with Metamagic. (https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/135630/can-a-sorcerer-use-metamagic-when-casting-a-spell-via-a-spell-scroll)

[Mortis_Elrod]

Not sure its been pointed out yet, but Divine Soul's arguably make some of the best necromancers in the game. You'd have access to all the fun necromancy spells and could even dip with synergy into Celestial Warlock for ways to heal undead. I dont think you'd have to select a bunch of spells but youd have access to all of them save the really high level ones wizards get, but thats fine you can keep you undead going longer, plus animate dead with warlock slots then Catnap for 10 minutes to do it again.

Probably one of my favorite ways to subvert both of those subclasses.

[Man_Over_Game]

Not sure its been pointed out yet, but Divine Soul's arguably make some of the best necromancers in the game. You'd have access to all the fun necromancy spells and could even dip with synergy into Celestial Warlock for ways to heal undead. I dont think you'd have to select a bunch of spells but youd have access to all of them save the really high level ones wizards get, but thats fine you can keep you undead going longer, plus animate dead with warlock slots then Catnap for 10 minutes to do it again.

Probably one of my favorite ways to subvert both of those subclasses.

Hmm...

Divine Soul 5/Undying Warlock 5? Make a ton of undead, make yourself immune to them if they ever run rampant?

[Pex]

It's not even a matter of want.

We get 4 first level spells at level 2 as a divine soul.
-Shield/mage armor/absorb elements- That holy trio of first level defensive spells will always be a top pick. We can't even take all three of these, even 2 is tough.
-Healing word- Kind of a must pick for a divine soul. One build here didn't have it, which was pretty interesting.
-Bless- Our class spell.
-Guiding bolt- Great direct damage spell.

At level 3 we need to lose one of these. Otherwise we only have 1 level 2 spell. Spiritual weapon, suggestion, blindness/deafness, hold person are among the things up on the table.
At level 5 we have to choose between losing one of those three rocking level 2 spells, or another one of our level 1 spells. They are standing up against fireball, revivify, and counterspell here.

So we start with 4 level 1 spells. We end at 2 or 3. Keeping 3 took the loss of a second level spell. Even progressing further we'll be hard-pressed to make room for more level 1 spells, and we didn't even get to keep the essential first level spells, let alone make room for protection from good/evil, and sanctuary. Then at 10th level, when we finally have a handle on our known spells, our known spell progression is halved.

The limited number of spells known is a Sorcerer problem, not a Divine Soul problem. If you're wanting to play a Divine Soul then you are wanting the cleric spells, so you pick and choose what you want. As much as Shield and Absorb Elements are good spells not every Sorcerer everywhere needs to have them. Maybe choose Mirror Image or Blur to have some defense. You can't do everything and you're not supposed to, so don't resent it.

[Mortis_Elrod]

Hmm...

Divine Soul 5/Undying Warlock 5? Make a ton of undead, make yourself immune to them if they ever run rampant?

It works. I tend to forget that warlock patron exists, it just not what i wanted, but theres nothing wrong with that, other than planning for failure.

I'd rather just go Celestial, pretend to be a really nice guy with holy powers. Look i blasted healing light into my really pale skinny bodyguard, he cant possibly be undead!

or maybe go Hexblade for the specter at 6. Be like a piecemeal oathbreaker Paladin. Get a Cloak of Flies thats like you're personal aura of stank.

[Pubili]

The Divine Soul Sorcerers are the best Necromancer.

Using Flexible casting, they can create a lot of higher level at cost of low level spells and sorcery points.
Basically a Wizard could control 8 zombies, the Sorcerer control 22 at same level.

At level 7
Also, Extended Aid (Upcasted to level 5) and Inspire Leadership (Cha based).

You basically can create a elite undead army.
Heavy Armor, Shield, Lance, Longbow, Aid, Inspire Leadership. Buy mount, Create small undead that can ride a matiff.

Still better, because The Sorcerer can disguise himself amoung the Undead Army.
Subtle Metamagic allows him to cast spells without reveal himself as spellcaster.
Subtle Bless and Spirital Weapon would be sweet.
It's broken.

It at cost of 2 spells known, It's enough be the best.

[stoutstien]

Not sure its been pointed out yet, but Divine Soul's arguably make some of the best necromancers in the game. You'd have access to all the fun necromancy spells and could even dip with synergy into Celestial Warlock for ways to heal undead. I dont think you'd have to select a bunch of spells but youd have access to all of them save the really high level ones wizards get, but thats fine you can keep you undead going longer, plus animate dead with warlock slots then Catnap for 10 minutes to do it again.

Probably one of my favorite ways to subvert both of those subclasses.
I've built a necro DS to fill in until higher lv when conjure celestial, plan binding/ally, and such come on line. Twinning dragons breath gives a solid aoe option for mobs and aid can give them a solid buff in staying power.

[RedMage125]

The Divine Soul Sorcerers are the best Necromancer.

Using Flexible casting, they can create a lot of higher level at cost of low level spells and sorcery points.
Basically a Wizard could control 8 zombies, the Sorcerer control 22 at same level.

At level 7
Also, Extended Aid (Upcasted to level 5) and Inspire Leadership (Cha based).

You basically can create a elite undead army.
Heavy Armor, Shield, Lance, Longbow, Aid, Inspire Leadership. Buy mount, Create small undead that can ride a matiff.

Still better, because The Sorcerer can disguise himself amoung the Undead Army.
Subtle Metamagic allows him to cast spells without reveal himself as spellcaster.
Subtle Bless and Spirital Weapon would be sweet.
It's broken.

It at cost of 2 spells known, It's enough be the best.

HA! I called it! I knew this thread would draw him to post something.

sophontteks, I was right. I should have made it a wager.

[Zuras]

yes, but from my experience, I don't buy into the "OMG, sorcerer is starved for spells".




What type of tables do you play at? Also, do you ever feel starved for spells on a character? In my experience, even the non-land Druids I have played end up being starved for spells known—I have literally played without a 7th level spell prepared in tier 3 before, just to keep my bases covered with lower level spells, but that is when playing as the sole full caster in a party of martials.

I can see playing a sorcerer in an ongoing campaign with a stable group, but when I play (as opposed to DM) it is almost entirely AL pick-up games, and the single-classed Sorcerers I have seen tend to fare poorly. They have their moments, but the Twinned Haste or Subtle Suggestion moments are more than balanced out by the situations where their tricks don’t work and they spend their turns impotently chucking cantrips.

[JackPhoenix]

One last point that I haven’t seen on this thread: since both sorcerer and clerics spells are on your list, you can use both cleric and sorcerer spell scrolls, giving you access to a much larger of spells you can cast at the cost of a consumable magic item.

Not entirely true. DS can't cast spells from cleric list, it can choose some spells from cleric list and put them on sorcerer's list. So the sorcerer can only cast cleric spells he already knows from scrolls.

[qube]

What type of tables do you play at?predominantly wooden ones :p


Also, do you ever feel starved for spells on a character? In my experience, even the non-land Druids I have played end up being starved for spells known—I have literally played without a 7th level spell prepared in tier 3 before, just to keep my bases covered with lower level spells, but that is when playing as the sole full caster in a party of martials.No, but it's a mindset. I'm not greedy, nor do I feel the need to optimise.

You don't need to uber effective in all fights - you need to be uber effecive in the ones where you got situational advantage, and not be useless in those where you got situational disadvantage.

Consider defense. All my base build takes is shield. "OMG, that leaves so many openings !!!", yes, but that's OK. I'm usually in the back line, and I actually don't mind getting hit. (it has to do with resource economics. better to have 2 damaged characters then 1 undamaged & 1 very damaged. from a hit die & a mass healing perspective, and a "1hp = OK, 0hp= dying" perspective )

Likewise, consider a the BBEG, for which I take banishment. "But what if he has good CHA save !?!?" Other then that being metagaming, then I just switch to my cantrip. Will I be as effective? nope. But then again, A fighter against a big AC enemy, suffers from the same problem. And you don't see those guys panicking about it.

---
For instance, I don't see the haste spell as "essential". If i were to make a sorcerer focussed on buffing, then, you know, sure, it's a good buf (esp. twinned) - but otherwise, that's graivy - that's a spell I'd only consider if I have slots left.

Likewise, counterspell. That spell is so situational I again don't consider it for as base sorcerer (and I ain't never made an anti-spellcaster spellcaster. Got mage slayer for that ;) ). Maybe on very high level, wen I got a slot left (don't get me wrong - calling out a "nope" can be fun :) ), but otherwise, Let them cast. The good spells have concentration, and there are more then enough ways to deal with that :)


... so, while I might end up with a sorcerer with haste & counterspell, I won't have the feeling of starving for spells. Oppositely, I had spellslots left which I filled with niceness.

[Nhorianscum]

I will also admit that my opinion of the DS is hopelessly biased anyway, since I find the Sorcerer as a whole underwhelming, and have never played one. As a DM, it is the class I have seen most commonly abandoned by players in my campaigns, and the class to most frequently feel completely ineffective

Sorc is my personal favorite thing to use (tied with AT) and not gonna lie... never seen these issues pop up.

Give one a shot and let go of ideas like "utility spells" or "restraint" and they're an absolute blast to play.

[sophontteks]

Well, I think the main problem here is this: the best spells of any one class are the best because they belong to that class. And often we think of good spells as good spells and just end the thought there.

Simple example of where this happens: Greenflame and Booming Blades are overall terrible spells for almost all Wizard builds ever, but are marvellous for EK. Because they are fundamentally different classes: the former is a long range squishy, the later a short range tank.

Why wouldn't it be the case for Clerics and Divine Souls? The pattern repeats only reversed: the former is a short range tank, the latter a long range squishy.

Take for one thing Healing Word: it will never work for Sorcerers. The main cool feature of the spell is picking up fallen allies. You are not outliving your allies as a Sorcerer. Ever. A Cleric accomplishes this by being the single most tanky caster class, so it's basically free/intuitive for them.

The way this works for Clerics is "I leverage my durability to help my allies deal damage when they would otherwise be unable to, and through them I contribute to DPR". Sorcerers are neither durable, nor lack or depend on others to deal damage. There is no reason Healing Word should be overly good for them, and never a must pick. Buy healing potions for ocasional pinches.

Controversial an opinion as it may be, the same goes for Bless: it does nothing to protect the Sorcerer, competes for the slots of spells that do, and adds damage the Sorcerer doesn't lack. It's simply not good for them.

That's why I advocate that for low levels instead of getting stuck on the Healing Word + Bless Cleric thing, we look at Sanctuary + Bane.

Bane is often overlooked because it doesn't suit the cleric as well as Bless, but it's a phenomenal spell. It protects the whole party from all attacks from 3+ enemies and craps on their saves. It targets a Cha save, wich is often very weak, and requires only one save to act for the full duration. It's a great opener when dealing with boss-type encounters and makes every other subsequent spell better. And you can get it for free from your class feature.

Sanctuary is an incredibly versatile, non-concentration buff. It can counter spells, attacks and redirect them to more resilient targets. And targets Wis, an often weak save that gets crapped on further by Bane (plus it can help keep Bane up, and therefore yourself and allies). Every once in a while it may even make enemy spells useless given that your protected target is distant enough from your party.

We can even dive deeper onto the spell combinations and go for full debuff mode. Get Frostbite as a cantrip: Deals cold damage to a target on a failed Con save and causes disadvantage on it's next attack. And/or Toll the dead for the big damage to targets with missing HP on a Wis save. Blindness/Deafness is one of the best and only non-concentration debuffs that targets saves and disturbs both casting and attacking. Traditional DPR spells are still open to us. Eyebite is overall amazing with Sanctuary. I'd have to research more to go on, but still the point is made.

IMO, Divine Soul can be extremely potent so long as you don't try to make a Cleric.
Hmmm...I'll try to make a new build based on this. I think you have some solid points. And yeah blindness/deafness is super solid.


I think I agree with many of the OP's points but can't agree with the conclusion that it is terrible. Over-rated, possibly. But not actively bad.

If we say that combat power is the average utility of the best thing you can do in combat each round, then addition of a few options can make a difference if they are useful enough and importantly different enough to the other abilities you have.

Even just throwing bless and healing word into the mix is a big shift. Bless is a great use of a level 1 spell slot and enables the PC to be proactive with little resource cost. Healing word to revive the fallen is simply superb when you need it - what can be tough on other spellcasters due to a spell as an action being a cantrip is less of an issue as a twinned firebolt is a respectable addition.


I had considered one as a character for a recent game; we were advised we could use the revised ranger so I was keen to do so. Adding some DS to boost spellcasting really appealed. Shield, Healing word, bless, enhance ability, animate dead all on top of the rangers spells is solid. It lets me play a caster whilst minimising investment in a casting stat. I can wander round with Cha 13 and have a broad choice of good spells that don't rely on a good stat.

If you are looking for a multiclass, this has some nice features.
I agree. I'm gonna try to post another build soon using some of the advice from here. Giving a sorcerer double the spells doesn't make rolling them up very easy, and its tricky to get the most out of it. I think they are a bit weaker levels 1-6 at least. They have great MC options and a good end game.


One last point that I haven’t seen on this thread: since both sorcerer and clerics spells are on your list, you can use both cleric and sorcerer spell scrolls, giving you access to a much larger of spells you can cast at the cost of a consumable magic item.
Wow great point. Noted.


Not entirely true. DS can't cast spells from cleric list, it can choose some spells from cleric list and put them on sorcerer's list. So the sorcerer can only cast cleric spells he already knows from scrolls.
Crap, nevermind.


Not sure its been pointed out yet, but Divine Soul's arguably make some of the best necromancers in the game. You'd have access to all the fun necromancy spells and could even dip with synergy into Celestial Warlock for ways to heal undead. I dont think you'd have to select a bunch of spells but youd have access to all of them save the really high level ones wizards get, but thats fine you can keep you undead going longer, plus animate dead with warlock slots then Catnap for 10 minutes to do it again.

Probably one of my favorite ways to subvert both of those subclasses.
Interesting, I'd love to see a build out of this if you feel like posting it. I would but I was working on another based on other input.


The limited number of spells known is a Sorcerer problem, not a Divine Soul problem. If you're wanting to play a Divine Soul then you are wanting the cleric spells, so you pick and choose what you want. As much as Shield and Absorb Elements are good spells not every Sorcerer everywhere needs to have them. Maybe choose Mirror Image or Blur to have some defense. You can't do everything and you're not supposed to, so don't resent it.
Having archtype abilities dependent on those limited spells known is a divine soul problem, and its more or less the point of this thread. The other archtypes have abilities that are independent of the limited spells known, while a divine soul needs to make a gainful advantage out of having another list of spells to be competitive. You've stated that your sorcerer friend has trouble maintaining concentration. Maybe its because they don't have shield. Why don't you try making a build here so I can see how you'd make your suggestions work?


HA! I called it! I knew this thread would draw him to post something.

sophontteks, I was right. I should have made it a wager.
Your right, and I'm actually interested too.


Sorc is my personal favorite thing to use (tied with AT) and not gonna lie... never seen these issues pop up.

Give one a shot and let go of ideas like "utility spells" or "restraint" and they're an absolute blast to play.
I love sorcerers, they are my favorite class, but I've also seen a lot of new players get totally screwed by them. They really benefit from a bit of research.

[sophontteks]

sure there is. The fact that unless specified, you don't control your summoned creatures. And considering that grappling is not part of the direwolves M.O. , you're rellying on some SERIOUS DM goodwill.

... and with serious DM goodwil, anything can be OP.

Another poster had a great point that the wolf doesn't have hands and I appreciate them pointing it out. FYI all creatures with hands can grapple. Bears, for example, can grapple. Fortunately this doesn't change much. Just means a teammate will be grappling instead.


you do know casting darkness costs 2 spell points and only lasts 10 minutes, right?

It only lasts 10 times longer then greater invisibility. Is this supposed to be a downside? 10 minutes is way above the curve for spells like this. The difference between a 1 minute spell and a 10 minute spell is day and night. I can cast darkness outside of combat, and it will still be active when we enter combat. You can't do that with 1 minute spells. This darkness is better then greater invisibility overall, because greater invisibility costs an action in combat. I can't fathom how you can believe this spell becomes useless. What replaces it?

2 spell points is also very cheap, the exact same cost of mulching a second level spell into sorcery points. This means its 100% efficient to turn spells into darkness castings, which is amazing. I planned for this by only having 1 first level spell, mage armor. The rest of my first level spells are used to cast more darkness and hounds. I have plenty of metamagic to spare for this, and I'll happily dig into second level spells to cast it even more.


Consider you wrote,

The cantrip is cute. I like it. I'm not sure how practical it is.
not "Twinning that cantrip", or "modifying that cnatrip" or "the use of that cantrip", ...

Your failure to read the entire conversation is not my problem. Why double down on this mistake? This is effectively trolling...Stop that.

[sophontteks]

Ok I'm pretty excited about this one. This is the culmination of all the suggestions thus far. It's unique, and uses a good amount of cleric spells without feeling at all like a cleric. Instead of healing at all, the build is about preventative measures.

Race- Mountain Dwarf- For the Armor training and HP. This really help solve the squishiness problem! The build isn't too concerned with a lower spell DC.

Metamagic- Extend Spell, Twinned Spell.

Spell Progression Level 1-7 (parenthesis show spells removed)
1. Guiding Bolt, Bane, Healing Word
2. Sanctuary
3. Spiritual Weapon, Enlarge/Reduce, (Guiding bolt)
4. Aid
5. Counterspell, Haste, (Healing Word)
6. Revivify
7. Death Ward, Polymorph, (Enlarge/Reduce)

The bane + sanctuary combo is a nice bread and butter tactic that makes the caster very hard to hit. It works on both their save to make the attack, and their chance to hit if they make the save. Awesome. The character is about buffing, and almost nothing breaks sanctuary. Spiritual weapon even allows the character to continue dealing damage while under sanctuary. Between this and the medium armor concentrating shouldn't be too difficult. If it fails there is favored by the gods to fall back on. With the added defenses I think the caster is much safer using haste.

[Man_Over_Game]

I think the official word is that Spiritual Weapon, or any damage from a spell, breaks Sanctuary. Spirit Guardians would, as well.

And I think that's fair. Sanctuary is a level 1 spell that costs a Bonus Action, lasts a minute and has no Concentration. It does what it does, and I don't think it needs to be more powerful than what it already is.

[sophontteks]

I think the official word is that Spiritual Weapon, or any damage from a spell, breaks Sanctuary. Spirit Guardians would, as well.

And I think that's fair. Sanctuary is a level 1 spell that costs a Bonus Action, lasts a minute and has no Concentration. It does what it does, and I don't think it needs to be more powerful than what it already is.
I'll happily ignore JC here, but definitely noted that there is an ettera that changed sanctuary.

[Pex]

Having archtype abilities dependent on those limited spells known is a divine soul problem, and its more or less the point of this thread. The other archtypes have abilities that are independent of the limited spells known, while a divine soul needs to make a gainful advantage out of having another list of spells to be competitive. You've stated that your sorcerer friend has trouble maintaining concentration. Maybe its because they don't have shield. Why don't you try making a build here so I can see how you'd make your suggestions work?



I never he said he was a Sorcerer. In fact he's a Land Druid. He loses Concentration because of how the DM sets up encounters, and we deal with it. The cost of losing a turn when Haste goes away is too high. My paladin suffered that, so I agreed with his decision not to use it anymore. For this particular campaign it hurts the party to use it, which is my point in that Haste is not universally good everyone should always have it.

Nothing the Divine Soul has is absolutely crucial to having particular spells. He makes saving throws all the time, and there are plenty of good attack roll spells he would like to have anyway. He doesn't need to be the one to cast a healing spell. He loves his wings and personal healing.

[Fryy]

Having archtype abilities dependent on those limited spells known is a divine soul problem, and its more or less the point of this thread. The other archtypes have abilities that are independent of the limited spells known, while a divine soul needs to make a gainful advantage out of having another list of spells to be competitive. You've stated that your sorcerer friend has trouble maintaining concentration. Maybe its because they don't have shield. Why don't you try making a build here so I can see how you'd make your suggestions work?

Emphasis mine. Respectfully, I just cannot agree that having the flexibility to choose from 2 spell lists rather than only one is a 'problem' or is 'terrible' despite the limited spells known for the Sorcerer class in general.

Please excuse the arguably extreme example but... By similar argument or logic, one could say that the Bard feature Magical Secrets is 'terrible' because Bards are forced to choose spells from any spell list but most Bards only get to choose 2 magical secret spells by level 10. By this logic, choosing Healing Spirit and Find Steed 'prevent' the Bard from choosing CounterSpell, Fireball, or Haste... thus making them really terrible at counterspell-ing, fireball-ing, and haste-ing. If Bards could only choose Magical Secrets from a more limited set (like just the Wizard spell list), they would not have the flexibility problem.

Just like with Bards and Magical Secrets, Sorcerers need to choose carefully and pick a niche. Maybe the only Cleric spells you want for your Sorcerer are Revivify and Death Ward and you don't really care about Darkness or the Hound. Shadow and Draconic origins are really terrible options for getting Death Ward on your spell list, but not terrible origins.

[sophontteks]

I never he said he was a Sorcerer. In fact he's a Land Druid. He loses Concentration because of how the DM sets up encounters, and we deal with it. The cost of losing a turn when Haste goes away is too high. My paladin suffered that, so I agreed with his decision not to use it anymore. For this particular campaign it hurts the party to use it, which is my point in that Haste is not universally good everyone should always have it.

Nothing the Divine Soul has is absolutely crucial to having particular spells. He makes saving throws all the time, and there are plenty of good attack roll spells he would like to have anyway. He doesn't need to be the one to cast a healing spell. He loves his wings and personal healing.
The thread is about Divine Souls being a top-tier sorcerer archtype. I'm glad your player is having fun, but its not really relevant.


Emphasis mine. Respectfully, I just cannot agree that having the flexibility to choose from 2 spell lists rather than only one is a 'problem' or is 'terrible' despite the limited spells known for the Sorcerer class in general.

Please excuse the arguably extreme example but... By similar argument or logic, one could say that the Bard feature Magical Secrets is 'terrible' because Bards are forced to choose spells from any spell list but most Bards only get to choose 2 magical secret spells by level 10. By this logic, choosing Healing Spirit and Find Steed 'prevent' the Bard from choosing CounterSpell, Fireball, or Haste... thus making them really terrible at counterspell-ing, fireball-ing, and haste-ing. If Bards could only choose Magical Secrets from a more limited set (like just the Wizard spell list), they would not have the flexibility problem.

Just like with Bards and Magical Secrets, Sorcerers need to choose carefully and pick a niche. Maybe the only Cleric spells you want for your Sorcerer are Revivify and Death Ward and you don't really care about Darkness or the Hound. Shadow and Draconic origins are really terrible options for getting Death Ward on your spell list, but not terrible origins.

No, its not like any of your examples at all.

We are comparing archtypes, so we are comparing the value of the second spell list to the value of the other archtype abilities. That spell list isn't "Free" it comes with the opportunity cost of not having other sorcerer abilities.

In your examples you are comparing abilities to nothing. Of course magical secrets is better then nothing.

[Galithar]

The thread is NOT about it being top tier (which it is if played right, but I'm not joining that part of the discussion because all the opposition just says nuh-uh that's bad because I don't like it) it's about it being TERRIBLE. Which it isn't. If you're struggling with this read the thread title. To convince someone that something isn't terrible is not to convince them it's the best. I think most would agree that unless you have a favorable DM Divine Soul is superior to Wild Magic. Now if you're DM let's surges happen constantly it's one if the best, if they make them happen reasonably often it's good, but if they have them rarely it's terrible.

[sophontteks]

The thread is NOT about it being top tier (which it is if played right, but I'm not joining that part of the discussion because all the opposition just says nuh-uh that's bad because I don't like it) it's about it being TERRIBLE. Which it isn't. If you're struggling with this read the thread title. To convince someone that something isn't terrible is not to convince them it's the best. I think most would agree that unless you have a favorable DM Divine Soul is superior to Wild Magic. Now if you're DM let's surges happen constantly it's one if the best, if they make them happen reasonably often it's good, but if they have them rarely it's terrible.
"Divine soul is terrible vs. the other sorcerer archtypes and I don't understand why people keep saying its the best Sorcerer archtype when I think its one of the worst." Just doesn't have the same ring to it as a title. It wasn't my intention to mislead anyone. That said, it is me you are trying to convince, so I kind of monopolize what convinces me. :smallbiggrin:

EDIT: To get into wild magic, its impossible to rate or even add to the discussion. Suffice to say that the class was written terribly. It should never have been up to the DM to determine the power of the class, and comes off to me as lazy writing. For the most part, I've evicted it from any discussion due to this, and I'd just advise anyone who wants to play a wild sorcerer to talk to their DM first, and work out when wild surges will happen. If the DM sounds dissmissive, play something else.

[Mortis_Elrod]

Interesting, I'd love to see a build out of this if you feel like posting it. I would but I was working on another based on other input.


Sure, tweak to your own desire of course but if you're gonna be a super specialized necromancy focused caster DS with Celestial is the way to go. Ideal is of course 5/5 split and from there you can fully invest in Sorcerer. I haven't really made a build per say but....

Pick your favorite Cha focused race, for me its Tieflings and they come in a variety of flavors, but you could go half elf or human or whatever you want no biggie.

Then take Sorcerer for 5 levels. What spells to take?:

Toll of the Dead- awesome d12 cantrip, right up the flavor alley,
Insert favorite other cantrips
Inflict wounds- for that nasty touch of death.
Gentle Repose- so your buddies dont smell so bad, not really needed but possible
Animate Dead- of course why we even here.
Revivify- only if nobody else is able to rez people, and only if someone really wants to keep their character
Speak with Dead- thats just flavor utility and possible info dump from GM. this should really be a ritual tho.
Catnap-short rest in ten minutes. Sometimes its redundant other times its op. User discretion is advised.

Besides that take whatever you want, and some of these aren't even necessary. Then take 5 level of Warlock(Celestial).
Spells to take:
Cause Fear- Now you be scary.
Ray of Enfeeblement- thats a fun little debuff, not needed but welcome
Vampiric Touch- I know its just...bad but i cant live without it. I love the idea of it. Use at your own risk.

Pact boon: Any work, if your gm lets you get that walking hand thingy it be really neat to chain with it, otherwise this is up to you. Personally i like Tome with this. Gives us some nice utlilty.
Invocations to consider
Cloak of Flies, Tomb of Levistus, that false life one, and anything else.


After this you can go more Sorcerer and scale pretty well, grabbing whatever else you want. Animate Dead + Catnap + Twin? + Pact Slot+ Sorcery Points = Something. Look idk the pieces are there. If my lizard folk death cleric dies on the journey to strahd ill try it out and tell you about it.

[Galithar]

"Divine soul is terrible vs. the other sorcerer archtypes and I don't understand why people keep saying its the best Sorcerer archtype when I think its one of the worst." Just doesn't have the same ring to it as a title. It wasn't my intention to mislead anyone. That said, it is me you are trying to convince, so I kind of monopolize what convinces me. :smallbiggrin:

EDIT: To get into wild magic, its impossible to rate or even add to the discussion. Suffice to say that the class was written terribly. It should never have been up to the DM to determine the power of the class, and comes off to me as lazy writing. For the most part, I've evicted it from any discussion due to this, and I'd just advise anyone who wants to play a wild sorcerer to talk to their DM first, and work out when wild surges will happen. If the DM sounds dissmissive, play something else.

True enough, but I must have missed "don't understand why people keep saying its the best Sorcerer archtype" that part being brought up. I don't think it's the most powerful. Then again I don't think there IS a most powerful. There are 3 good ones. A blaster (Draconic) a debuffer (Shadow) and a buffer (Divine Soul)

[TalksAlone]

Ok I'm pretty excited about this one. This is the culmination of all the suggestions thus far. It's unique, and uses a good amount of cleric spells without feeling at all like a cleric. Instead of healing at all, the build is about preventative measures.

Race- Mountain Dwarf- For the Armor training and HP. This really help solve the squishiness problem! The build isn't too concerned with a lower spell DC.

Metamagic- Extend Spell, Twinned Spell.

Spell Progression Level 1-7 (parenthesis show spells removed)
1. Guiding Bolt, Bane, Healing Word
2. Sanctuary
3. Spiritual Weapon, Enlarge/Reduce, (Guiding bolt)
4. Aid
5. Counterspell, Haste, (Healing Word)
6. Revivify
7. Death Ward, Polymorph, (Enlarge/Reduce)

The bane + sanctuary combo is a nice bread and butter tactic that makes the caster very hard to hit. It works on both their save to make the attack, and their chance to hit if they make the save. Awesome. The character is about buffing, and almost nothing breaks sanctuary. Spiritual weapon even allows the character to continue dealing damage while under sanctuary. Between this and the medium armor concentrating shouldn't be too difficult. If it fails there is favored by the gods to fall back on. With the added defenses I think the caster is much safer using haste.

This looks like one hell of a spellcaster. If the DM enforces Spiritual Weapon breaking sanctuary every turn, I'd go for Lesser Restoration.

You should consider your cantrip selection carefully as well. Mold Earth is nice for some cover and extra dwarveness, Minor Illusion is just great, I'd go with those plus Frostbite and Guidance.

[Galithar]

This looks like one hell of a spellcaster. If the DM enforces Spiritual Weapon breaking sanctuary every turn, I'd go for Lesser Restoration.

You should consider your cantrip selection carefully as well. Mold Earth is nice for some cover and extra dwarveness, Minor Illusion is just great, I'd go with those plus Frostbite (by RAW doesn't break Sanctuary) and Guidance.

Frostbite doesn't work with Sanctuary even without the errata ruling.

"If the warded creature makes an attack or casts a spell that affects an enemy creature, this spell ends."

Frostbite is casting a spell that effects an enemy creature. Spiritual Weapon gets ruled to bypass that by it not being that casting of the spell that effects an enemy creature. It's a pretty thin argument even then and is against the intent of the spell.

I agree with dropping Sanctuary. Unless you have an non combatant to defend or a healer/buffer that rarely attacks it's just not worth the spell slot in my eyes.

[Tanarii]

What am I missing about Enlarge/Reduce? I've never seen it worth the second level slot. (Wondering if I'm inadvertently nerfing it somehow.)

[Galithar]

What am I missing about Enlarge/Reduce? I've never seen it worth the second level slot. (Wondering if I'm inadvertently nerfing it somehow.)

If you have someone that grapples it can be used to grapple massive creatures. Enlarge the medium grappler to Large, reduce the Gargantuan creature to Huge. Now you can grapple it.

Other then that it's not amazing. An enemy with lots of attacks can be pretty damaged by the reduction in damage per hit though.

I agree that it's underwhelming in my experience.

[Zuras]

No, but it's a mindset. I'm not greedy, nor do I feel the need to optimise.

You don't need to uber effective in all fights - you need to be uber effecive in the ones where you got situational advantage, and not be useless in those where you got situational disadvantage.



I think we must have very different play styles. I get extremely unhappy when I can’t contribute effectively in a fight, to the point that I would never play a pure melee character. Most of the martial PCs I’ve played are multiclassed as a result (Paladin/Warlock, Barbarian/Rogue, etc.).

Most of the time it doesn’t matter, but the times I have sat across the table from a pull-no-punches DM in a difficult module, I can’t imagine enjoying myself at all if I was reduced to sitting back and chucking cantrips. My favorite moments as a caster are when I have the perfect situational spell prepared and trivialize an encounter with water walking or send the paralyzed fighter back into the fight with Lesser Restoration. As such, I haven’t ever felt like playing a Sorcerer.

[stoutstien]

What am I missing about Enlarge/Reduce? I've never seen it worth the second level slot. (Wondering if I'm inadvertently nerfing it somehow.)
Actually works well with twin as buff and debuff in one action.
I've had one player use it on skeletons who where 2wf with short swords or zombies grappling.

[TalksAlone]

Frostbite doesn't work with Sanctuary even without the errata ruling.

"If the warded creature makes an attack or casts a spell that affects an enemy creature, this spell ends."

Frostbite is casting a spell that effects an enemy creature. Spiritual Weapon gets ruled to bypass that by it not being that casting of the spell that effects an enemy creature. It's a pretty thin argument even then and is against the intent of the spell.

I realised that shortly after posting and edited.


I agree with dropping Sanctuary. Unless you have an non combatant to defend or a healer/buffer that rarely attacks it's just not worth the spell slot in my eyes.

I meant dropping Spiritual Weapon, mostly because Sanctuary+Buffing/Debuffing is kind of the point of the build. Besides, is it just me or is Spiritual Weapon easily kited? Shooting a casual Scorching Ray does the trick just fine, if you want the damage.

[Galithar]

I realised that shortly after posting and edited.



I meant dropping Spiritual Weapon, mostly because Sanctuary+Buffing/Debuffing is kind of the point of the build. Besides, is it just me or is Spiritual Weapon easily kited? Shooting a casual Scorching Ray does the trick just fine, if you want the damage.

If enemies try to kite it, yes it's pretty easy to kite. Never been a problem in my experience though. But if they are an enemy that kites you just use a different tactic. If you're dropping a damaging spell to hide behind Sanctuary while your allies do the work while you buff them you aren't doing much to contribute in my opinion. Spiritual Weapon is far more valuable them Sanctuary in the majority of combats. Plus I typically get up in their face and also drop Spirit Guardians (Warforged in medium armor off a Warlock MC. I have the best AC in the party so I'm not afraid to get in their face despite my lower max health)

[Ritorix]

A while ago I had visions of writing a sorc guide and wrote up a number of 1-20 builds. While I never finished the guide, I did play this completely passive DS build from 1-8 and had a good time. The party absolutely loved it too. I'll leave it here as an example of a nonstandard way to play the DS. Here's the build:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23910069&postcount=95

[8wGremlin]

What is your take on twining life transference.

[GorogIrongut]

A while ago I had visions of writing a sorc guide and wrote up a number of 1-20 builds. While I never finished the guide, I did play this completely passive DS build from 1-8 and had a good time. The party absolutely loved it too. I'll leave it here as an example of a nonstandard way to play the DS. Here's the build:

I'd like to make a suggestion that you post this build to the following thread... as it seems to be appropriate.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?583957-An-Eclectic-Collection-of-Fun-and-Effective-Builds

[TalksAlone]

If enemies try to kite it, yes it's pretty easy to kite. Never been a problem in my experience though. But if they are an enemy that kites you just use a different tactic. If you're dropping a damaging spell to hide behind Sanctuary while your allies do the work while you buff them you aren't doing much to contribute in my opinion. Spiritual Weapon is far more valuable them Sanctuary in the majority of combats. Plus I typically get up in their face and also drop Spirit Guardians (Warforged in medium armor off a Warlock MC. I have the best AC in the party so I'm not afraid to get in their face despite my lower max health)

I disagree. Nothing is forcing you to cast Sanctuary. Until something is. Then you cast it and switch to buffing and concentrating on whatever you had prior. If your enemy switches targets from frustration, drop sanctuary and fire away. Nobody complains about spending 1st level slots for Shield, and it lasts a round: think o Sanctuary as Shield that lasts up to 10 rounds and play around it.

[Man_Over_Game]

What is your take on twining life transference.

That it's...kind of ambiguous.

I wrote this question a while back: https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/142042/what-happens-when-i-twin-life-transference , and it's kind of open-ended. But the most official (safest) ruling would be that it's impossible (as you're affecting both yourself and the target by dong so, making it ineligible for Twin Spell).

I like the idea, though, of a Divine Soul 3/Storm Herald 3 who Twins it then Rages to mitigate the damage being dealt to his team. So that dealing 100% damage to either of his teammates ends up only dealing 75% that's split between the Barbarian and the teammate.

[sophontteks]

What am I missing about Enlarge/Reduce? I've never seen it worth the second level slot. (Wondering if I'm inadvertently nerfing it somehow.)
Sorcerers are always in need of versatile spells that can solve multiple problems on their own. Enlarge/reduce is twin-capable buff, debuff, and utility spell.

Treeantmonk covered the spell a few months back noting that the best thing about enlarge/reduce is that it can also be cast on objects. This opens up some really crazy shenanigans, like enlarging objects overhead to make them fall on an enemy, or reducing objects so they can be moved, or hidden from view. Even crazier things were mentioned. Reduce a boulder, then ready an action to enlarge the bounder when its thrown. The readied spell breaks concentration on the previous spell, and the thrown boulder grows 64x heavier mid-air. The reduced object could also be attached to the ceiling as a trap crushing anything caught underneath when it is enlarged.

As an example. Party is defending a chokepoint. Sorcerer reduces a 200 pound boulder into a 25 pound stone and the party fixes it to the ceiling with some rope. When the enemy starts running through the chokepoint the sorcerer casts enlarge upon the stone. Instantly the stone becomes a massive 1,800 pound boulder that crushes whatever is underneath and likely blocks the chokepoint, splitting the enemy.

Twin enlarge/reduce to simultaneously make a tank 1 size large and an object one size smaller. The tank's carrying capacity is doubled, and the object weighs 1/8th of its original weight. If the tank had 20 strength he can lift 300 pounds and drag 600 pounds. Altogether we've upped this to 4,800 pounds and 9,600 pounds respectively. A tank can move 5 tons with no movement penalty.

Finally, the ability to grapple huge creatures is really awesome. Its great to be able to pin dragons down, and the extra damage is not bad either.


A while ago I had visions of writing a sorc guide and wrote up a number of 1-20 builds. While I never finished the guide, I did play this completely passive DS build from 1-8 and had a good time. The party absolutely loved it too. I'll leave it here as an example of a nonstandard way to play the DS. Here's the build:

The reflexive response is to say you are wasting twinned. You could just cast those spells twice since they aren't concentration. But twinned here is being used for a different purpose. It's 100% efficient spell conversion. Like, at level 7 you want to cast both death ward and Aid as 4th level spells, but only have 2 4th level slots. With twinned your effective slots are doubled. Since it costs 4 SP to twin these spells, you can convert lower level spells to SP without worry. This makes it very easy to upcast multiple spells.

That's a pretty solid idea, and the build is really solid overall. I think you've accomplished your goal of making something unique from both clerics and sorcerers while remaining very useful to the party. It really is a lot of free HP you are throwing around.

I would get rid of cure wounds for phantasmal force and take subtle for my metamagic over quickened. Quickened is expensive, and the build is pretty passive in combat anyway. Phantasmal force and subtle is opening up a whole new role for this character without hurting his primary role. I can go in length at just how useful this one combination can be and subtle will be really nice with some of the spells already here. It's a great creative outlet.

[strangebloke]

Enlarge is also a mobility tool. You can expand tunnels if you're in a kobold warren, or shrink them if you're in a giant's lair. You can use your large size to step over walls instead of climbing them. You can smuggle a tiny halfling assassin inside your purse.

It's absolutely a fun and useful spell.

[Zuras]

A while ago I had visions of writing a sorc guide and wrote up a number of 1-20 builds. While I never finished the guide, I did play this completely passive DS build from 1-8 and had a good time. The party absolutely loved it too. I'll leave it here as an example of a nonstandard way to play the DS. Here's the build:



Divine Support

Access to the cleric spell list can be seen in two ways. It could allow you to pick and choose cleric spells for a blaster or controller, taking a few but still leaning mostly on the sorcerer spell list. I think that might be a mistake - you might as well be a dragon sorcerer. Divine Soul also lets you do something entirely new. Now you can be a full-time support caster, with metamagic making you better at the job than a cleric. That changes everything.




I have seen similar builds in practice, which worked pretty well. I would argue that the main benefit of the build is the ability to do prototypical Cleric stuff on a Charisma based chassis, allowing Inspiring Leader to be maximally useful without stressing your stat distribution, and allowing you to be the party face.

Twin, Quicken and Subtle are all nice metamagics, but none of them take any of the support Cleric spells to a new level. Twinning Healing Word is a nice trick at 3rd level, but by 5th a Cleric can just use Mass Healing Word. A twinned Death Ward lets you get an extra 4th level spell in for 4 sorcery points, but that’s mostly efficiency. The only unique thing you can do is Revivify two people at once, which is cool but shouldn’t come up frequently in your adventuring career.

[Galithar]

I disagree. Nothing is forcing you to cast Sanctuary. Until something is. Then you cast it and switch to buffing and concentrating on whatever you had prior. If your enemy switches targets from frustration, drop sanctuary and fire away. Nobody complains about spending 1st level slots for Shield, and it lasts a round: think o Sanctuary as Shield that lasts up to 10 rounds and play around it.

Except in most cases where Sanctuary would actually be needed, it's too late to cast it. If I had to cast Shield in advance and it only lasted one round and my concentration instead of me casting it when I'm already hit I'd say that it's near useless too. So no, there are far too many differences between the two to compare one of the most situational and niche spells to one of the best spells in the game.

[JackPhoenix]

Treeantmonk covered the spell a few months back noting that the best thing about enlarge/reduce is that it can also be cast on objects. This opens up some really crazy shenanigans, like enlarging objects overhead to make them fall on an enemy, or reducing objects so they can be moved, or hidden from view. Even crazier things were mentioned. Reduce a boulder, then ready an action to enlarge the bounder when its thrown. The readied spell breaks concentration on the previous spell, and the thrown boulder grows 64x heavier mid-air. The reduced object could also be attached to the ceiling as a trap crushing anything caught underneath when it is enlarged.

Doesn't work. Readying a spell takes your concentration, so the object would go back to its normal size before the throw happened.

[sophontteks]

Doesn't work. Readying a spell takes your concentration, so the object would go back to its normal size before the throw happened.
You're right. Also time constraints of 1 minute are a problem I didn't consider. Still, making things bigger and smaller is a really nice trick.

[Fryy]

A while ago I had visions of writing a sorc guide and wrote up a number of 1-20 builds. While I never finished the guide, I did play this completely passive DS build from 1-8 and had a good time. The party absolutely loved it too. I'll leave it here as an example of a nonstandard way to play the DS. Here's the build:

...

Final spell snapshot: Absorb Elements, Bless, Cure Wounds, Healing Word, Sanctuary, Aid, Warding Bond, Counterspell, Revivify, Death Ward, Polymorph, Greater Restoration, Heroes Feast, Feather Fall, Holy Word, Mass Heal, Wish

Great build & post. If you are keeping both Cure Wounds and Healing Word... would you consider a dip in Life Cleric?
Also, have you looked at Holy Aura (8th level concentration)? It seems thematic to you build as it is a damage mitigation spell.

[KorvinStarmast]

I agree that it's underwhelming in my experience. Enlargning my Fighter against Huge Giants, when the Shield Master bash could precede my three attacks (Tier 3 play) was fantastically useful. This was useful to get me advantage and give me more crit chances, and also helped a few times when the squishies needed room to flee and also avoid OAs.

[Ritorix]

Great build & post. If you are keeping both Cure Wounds and Healing Word... would you consider a dip in Life Cleric?
Also, have you looked at Holy Aura (8th level concentration)? It seems thematic to you build as it is a damage mitigation spell.

Oops, I actually did take Holy Aura but called it Holy Word for some reason. Edited, thanks.

This build was written up to be just a straight sorc, but yeah, squeezing in life cleric at some point for all the many benefits, especially armor+shield is probably optimal. I wouldn't do it before level 4 so War Caster isn't delayed.

[Galithar]

You're right. Also time constraints of 1 minute are a problem I didn't consider. Still, making things bigger and smaller is a really nice trick.

If you want some shenanigans you just have two casters.
One reduces something, picks it up.
The second readies enlarge when the guest throws it.
One throws and immediately drops concentration, then the second casters Enlarge activates.

[Fryy]

Oops, I actually did take Holy Aura but called it Holy Word for some reason. Edited, thanks.

Cool. I see you posted your build in the 'effective builds' thread.

You mentioned taking Feather Fall due to the level 14 wings feature. I don't think you need it for yourself. The otherworldly wings are not concentration and not a spell. You could have them up 24 hours a day (not counting sleep time). So, just about the only way you fall would be when you go unconscious... at which point you can't use Feather Fall either.

About the only time you would fall with the wings while still conscious would be if you are somehow knocked prone (i.e. Eldritch Smite).

[Fryy]

Twin, Quicken and Subtle are all nice metamagics, but none of them take any of the support Cleric spells to a new level. Twinning Healing Word is a nice trick at 3rd level, but by 5th a Cleric can just use Mass Healing Word. A twinned Death Ward lets you get an extra 4th level spell in for 4 sorcery points, but that’s mostly efficiency. The only unique thing you can do is Revivify two people at once, which is cool but shouldn’t come up frequently in your adventuring career.

Twinning is nice on the expensive spells. It would cut the cost of Revivify, Greater Restoration, Raise Dead, etc. if you needed to cast it one more than one person.

Twin plus Healing Word can eliminate the need to choose Mass Healing Word rather than the reverse. MHW doesn't heal that much in a non-life cleric. Its good if everyone but you dropped after taking a Fireball or other AOE. But if only one or two or three drop then Healing Word, twinned Healing Word, or Aid can handle it more cheaply.

[Zuras]

Twinning is nice on the expensive spells. It would cut the cost of Revivify, Greater Restoration, Raise Dead, etc. if you needed to cast it one more than one person.

Twin plus Healing Word can eliminate the need to choose Mass Healing Word rather than the reverse. MHW doesn't heal that much in a non-life cleric. Its good if everyone but you dropped after taking a Fireball or other AOE. But if only one or two or three drop then Healing Word, twinned Healing Word, or Aid can handle it more cheaply.


I agree that twinning Healing Word is efficient, and gets you most of the bang of Mass Healing Word at a lower cost, both in slots and spells known/prepared, but it doesn’t get around any major limitations to let you do something a Cleric couldn’t do. Compare that with twinning a concentration spell like haste, which does give you something unique and unavailable any other way.

The Cleric Spells worth twinning are almost entirely 1st level. Shield of Faith, Protection From Evil/Good, Sanctuary, Inflict Wounds and Guiding Bolt are all good, but the next Cleric spell that looks exciting to twin is Holy Weapon at 5th level. Twinning Hold Person, Command, Death Ward and similar spells is more efficient than up-casting them or using multiple slots, but your DM will need to be really into policing the full adventuring day for that to meaningfully come into play.

[Lord Vukodlak]

So has your mind been changed yet?

[TalksAlone]

Except in most cases where Sanctuary would actually be needed, it's too late to cast it. If I had to cast Shield in advance and it only lasted one round and my concentration instead of me casting it when I'm already hit I'd say that it's near useless too. So no, there are far too many differences between the two to compare one of the most situational and niche spells to one of the best spells in the game.

If you OR an ally within 30 feet need it, it lasts 10 rounds, costs a bonus action and no concentration. Also what makes being attacked with almost anything outside of AoE situational in your eyes?

Ally is wounded and got grappled and flanked by a couple enemies. He needs to use his action next turn to escape the grapple and can't disengage to get away. You coordinate and Sanctuary him. He gets away, on the next 9 turns he still can dodge, buff, drink a healing potion, equip a shield, etc while enjoying Sanctuary's protection.

You know you are going to face a powerful spellcaster who you know rely mostly on targeted and AoE damage spells. You want to prevent his AoE of getting too much value, so you decide to Counterspell it. You cast Sanctuary on yourself and concern only with the AoE.

An ally and yourself get separated from the group. He is dominated, and attacks you: cast Sanctuary and Dodge for some breathing room. Maybe wait for your ally to succeed on his Save.

An ally got petrified, you know damage to the statue will kill him. Sanctuary it.

You walk through a crowded, chaotic battlefield. Sanctuary.

You are playing any quest where you escort a VIP in order to protect it from BBEG grunts. Sanctuary.

A Mindflayer wants your coconut. Sanctuary.

[MaxWilson]

If you OR an ally within 30 feet need it, it lasts 10 rounds, costs a bonus action and no concentration. Also what makes being attacked with almost anything outside of AoE situational in your eyes?

Ally gets paralyzed by Hold Person, and there are a bunch of monsters nearby threatening auto-crits. Run up to him and cast Twin Sanctuary on yourself and him, then Dodge.

Panic buttons are invaluable because no one plays perfectly--everyone miscalculates sometimes. Sanctuary is not as foolproof as Dimension Door but it's available a whole lot earlier and IME it saves a lot of bacon.

[Galithar]

Getting attack is not situational. Getting attacked and not attacking back yourself IS. Ten rounds it's mostly irrelevant, combats last less then 5 most of the time. If you spend 1 round casting sanctuary you didn't do something better with your bonus action, then every round your target doesn't attack is something they didn't do to help end the encounter.

If someone is in danger and you don't have a better way to get them out if it, yes, Sanctuary is helpful. But unless they after under imminent threat of death and are incapable of fighting back (or have someone worthwhile to spend an action or more on) you're often better off doing something else. That's the definition of situational. On a Cleric? Sure you get plenty of spells. On a Sorcerer? You're better off with something else.

[TalksAlone]

Getting attack is not situational. Getting attacked and not attacking back yourself IS. Ten rounds it's mostly irrelevant, combats last less then 5 most of the time. If you spend 1 round casting sanctuary you didn't do something better with your bonus action, then every round your target doesn't attack is something they didn't do to help end the encounter.

Agreed for the most part. Points where I differ:

- Ten rounds duration is irrelevant, on all but the most ungodly encounters (wich at that point shouldn't exist). Two comes into play quite a bit. I've seen three before as well.

- Still, they or myself often can't end the encounter because of resource management and/or hard disables. It's often better in these cases to go for a war of attrition, especially with potions and disable resets.

It's a judgement call not some spray and pray thing. But my fellow players are often reckless, and my DMs cruel, so to me feels quite powerful.


If someone is in danger and you don't have a better way to get them out if it, yes, Sanctuary is helpful. But unless they after under imminent threat of death and are incapable of fighting back (or have someone worthwhile to spend an action or more on) you're often better off doing something else. That's the definition of situational. On a Cleric? Sure you get plenty of spells. On a Sorcerer? You're better off with something else.

What is this something else and, failing that, why wouldn't you want a 1st level spell that can save someone's ass when manure hits the fan?

[Galithar]

The something else could be any number of things. Such as Shield of Faith, while less powerful in any single instance, is likely to be applicable for the entire combat. A guaranteed use of something for medium effect in my eyes is better then something situational. Again on a Cleric I see great use in Sanctuary. The Sorcerer, especially the Divine Soul, has a lot of spells to choose and generally wants them to be applicable more often, so I see the opportunity cost for taking Sanctuary to be much higher for the DS Sorcerer.

Obviously this is all subjective but if it came down to me being able to fit Shield of Faith, Bless, Suggestion, Fireball or Greater Invisibility into my spells known or Sanctuary. I'm going to choose one of those because they are more frequently useable. (Suggestion being campaign and DM dependant) Also if your DM allows things like Spiritual Weapon to be used without breaking Sanctuary it becomes better as a 'I dare you to try to attack' option without removing yourself from combat. Your action being used for Dodge, using Items, or healing.

Again it's not that I think Sanctuary is bad. If you have a build like the one presented before where you are wholly dedicated to supporting spells and taking few to no offensive ones, it may be worth it. But on a more typical DS that is using the Cleric list to enhance their abilities as an offensive Sorcerer I just don't think it's worth one of your limited spells known.


Edit: Also your statement of it being 'a judgement call' enforces the idea that it is a situationally useful spell. I don't think Sorcerer's have much room for situationally limited spells very often. If you're playing at a table with reckless party mates and a brutal DM you are far more likely to see that situation come up and it may be more useful to you. I still don't think it is GENERALLY worth taking in a Sorcerer though.

[MaxWilson]

The something else could be any number of things. Such as Shield of Faith, while less powerful in any single instance, is likely to be applicable for the entire combat. A guaranteed use of something for medium effect in my eyes is better then something situational. Again on a Cleric I see great use in Sanctuary. The Sorcerer, especially the Divine Soul, has a lot of spells to choose and generally wants them to be applicable more often, so I see the opportunity cost for taking Sanctuary to be much higher for the DS Sorcerer.

Shield of Faith is concentration, so you're likely to have to drop some other spell like Hypnotic Pattern or Holy Aura or Spirit Guardians in order to use it. Sanctuary doesn't have that problem, so in practice Shield of Faith is much more expensive as well as being far weaker in effect. (+2 AC will save the target from one attack in ten; Sanctuary will often save you from two attacks in three, though exact numbers depend on what you're facing.)

[Galithar]

Shield of Faith is concentration, so you're likely to have to drop some other spell like Hypnotic Pattern or Holy Aura or Spirit Guardians in order to use it. Sanctuary doesn't have that problem, so in practice Shield of Faith is much more expensive as well as being far weaker in effect. (+2 AC will save the target from one attack in ten; Sanctuary will often save you from two attacks in three, though exact numbers depend on what you're facing.)

You don't have to drop anything, you just don't use it right now. I'm not going to Shield of Faith EVERY combat (also it was only one of many examples as something else to take) but if I am using it I can put it up for the full encounter. 10% reduced attacks is good for the full encounter. Sanctuary stops (or retargets) more attacks, but is much rarer to go for more then a round before the target wants to attack and breaks it.

For the record I probably wouldn't pick either on a Sorcerer. You'll get much more effect from a Bless in most combat encounters. Or from the other spells I suggested such as fireball or suggestion (not so much in combat, but in preventing it in the first place)

Sanctuary has its uses, but in a DS it's only occasionally worth casting. Sorcerers don't get enough spells known to take something like that. Prevent the situation proactively by killing, locking down, or buffing with something that lasts for more then a round. Yes, I know the duration is longer, but the chances of the target NOT taking a hostile action are lower than you seem willing to admit. And when they are going to go a round or more without hostile action it's very much worth using. But those are much more rare then something like 6 enemies pour out of the cavern, roll initiative. Am I going to want Sanctuary here or fireball? Again if I can have them both, great. But when I only get 15 spells at max level I'm probably not keeping Sanctuary.

So for the final time, I'm not saying it's not a good spell. I'm saying a Sorcerer likely doesn't have room in their list to justify taking something that might be useful a few times in a campaign. And again, if your party and DM make it useful more often knock yourself out. I'm not talking about a specific campaign in talking about the average DS Sorcerer.

[MaxWilson]

You don't have to drop anything, you just don't use it right now. I'm not going to Shield of Faith EVERY combat (also it was only one of many examples as something else to take) but if I am using it I can put it up for the full encounter. 10% reduced attacks is good for the full encounter. Sanctuary stops (or retargets) more attacks, but is much rarer to go for more then a round before the target wants to attack and breaks it.

Sorry, I missed the context of your "something else" which was explicitly NOT a panic button, so we're talking about different scenarios.

I would never take Shield of Faith on a Divine Soul though. Too much competition for your concentration. I probably wouldn't take Sanctuary either (too much competition for spells known) but I've often seen it be very valuable on Paladins and occasionally on Cleric 1/Wizard X front-liners.


For the record I probably wouldn't pick either on a Sorcerer. You'll get much more effect from a Bless in most combat encounters. Or from the other spells I suggested such as fireball or suggestion (not so much in combat, but in preventing it in the first place)

I don't really like Bless either on a Divine Soul.


Sanctuary has its uses, but in a DS it's only occasionally worth casting.

If your panic button rarely gets used, that's a good thing.


Sorcerers don't get enough spells known to take something like that. Prevent the situation proactively by killing, locking down, or buffing with something that lasts for more then a round.

I agree. But sometimes you miscalculate, or your lockdown fails to work, or a threat materializes from an unexpected vector, and it's really good if you've planned for that and are able to smoothly pivot to a new tactic without having to drop concentration on whatever you cast previously.


Yes, I know the duration is longer, but the chances of the target NOT taking a hostile action are lower than you seem willing to admit.

Curious. Who said anything about the target not taking a hostile action? The example I gave was about trying to prevent a paralyzed target from taking a boatload of auto-crits (i.e. redirecting the enemy attacks to someone who isn't paralyzed), not about nullifying hostile actions. While we're on the subject though, Sanctuary + grappling go together nicely for Devotion paladins though. Even if your DM rules that grappling counts as an attack (controversial), you can always grapple and THEN cast Sanctuary with your bonus action, which does go a long way towards nullifying one hostile enemy and maybe blocking a chokepoint with your own body + the body of your grappled enemy. A Cleric 1/Enchanter X can get similar mileage out of Hypnotic Gaze + Sanctuary + Instinctive Charm, which is tremendous fun.

The utility for a Divine Soul is more limited, and I probably wouldn't take it, but it's a good spell.


And when they are going to go a round or more without hostile action it's very much worth using. But those are much more rare then something like 6 enemies pour out of the cavern, roll initiative. Am I going to want Sanctuary here or fireball? Again if I can have them both, great. But when I only get 15 spells at max level I'm probably not keeping Sanctuary.

So for the final time, I'm not saying it's not a good spell. I'm saying a Sorcerer likely doesn't have room in their list to justify taking something that might be useful a few times in a campaign. And again, if your party and DM make it useful more often knock yourself out. I'm not talking about a specific campaign in talking about the average DS Sorcerer.

I don't disagree.

[Galithar]

If we're just going for panic buttons Banishment is superior. Banish your friend and they become immune to damage by being in another plane, can roll their save to break the effect that paralyzed them and you drop concentration and they pop back in. (Yes I understand that it's a way higher level slot and action instead of bonus action... I'm in my phone and blue text is harder to do :P )

And yes we're talking about difference scenarios because from the beginning I've said that Sanctuary is too situational. The situation where it's good is not relevant to it NOT being relevant the rest of the time. I used Shield of Faith because it's a level 1 Cleric buff spell. My entire point was that the something else could be useful way more often then Sanctuary. It was "something else known" not "Something else to cast in one of the few situations where Sanctuary is super good". My whole point was that other then that ONE (I'm sure there are others, but they'll all be similar) situation it's never going to last more then a round and that cuts into it's usefulness. Panic buttons are fine, but in most campaigns that's 'healing word' not Sanctuary. Lol

Bless is fantastic on anyone, but only truly valuable if you have to worry about conserving resources. A 5 minute adventuring day means their is always something better to do. I have some definite bias here because I play in a 3 man party that had long adventuring days. A full encounter buff to all of us is invaluable to me when conserving resources.

[MaxWilson]

If we're just going for panic buttons Banishment is superior.

Eh, only if you're willing to lose concentration on whatever you cast before Banishment. That's a huge downside, not even considering the action cost or spell slot cost. Dimension Door would be a better alternative than Banishment.


Banish your friend and they become immune to damage by being in another plane, can roll their save to break the effect that paralyzed them and you drop concentration and they pop back in. (Yes I understand that it's a way higher level slot and action instead of bonus action... I'm in my phone and blue text is harder to do :P )

And you know that the Banished PC is no longer paralyzed... how?


And yes we're talking about difference scenarios because from the beginning I've said that Sanctuary is too situational. The situation where it's good is not relevant to it NOT being relevant the rest of the time. I used Shield of Faith because it's a level 1 Cleric buff spell. My entire point was that the something else could be useful way more often then Sanctuary.

For a Divine Soul, Shield of Faith is terrible. Choose a different "something else."


Bless is fantastic on anyone, but only truly valuable if you have to worry about conserving resources. A 5 minute adventuring day means their is always something better to do. I have some definite bias here because I play in a 3 man party that had long adventuring days. A full encounter buff to all of us is invaluable to me when conserving resources.

Bless is still often a poor use of concentration on long adventuring days. You lose an action and a spell slot, gain +20% more damage... Web is far more tactically impactful. And don't try to tell me that casting Web implies a five-minute adventuring day. If you can afford to cast Bless, you can afford to cast Web, unless you're in Tier 1.

[8wGremlin]

I actually play a Divine Soul Sorcerer, at low levels twining Shield of Faith has been excellent.

I stand at the back and as a bonus action boost my two front lines meat shields AC an extra 2 point, they have the understanding that if I get hit, they might loose the bonus, so they do their upmost to use tactics, terrain and movement to control the battlefield so that I don't get hurt.

As an action I let loose with a cantrip, and make sure I move into a safer location every turn.

Granted as we have levelled I have thought to switch it out, but haven't done so yet.

[JackPhoenix]

If we're just going for panic buttons Banishment is superior. Banish your friend and they become immune to damage by being in another plane, can roll their save to break the effect that paralyzed them and you drop concentration and they pop back in. (Yes I understand that it's a way higher level slot and action instead of bonus action... I'm in my phone and blue text is harder to do :P )

It's worse than just action economy. You can't willingly fail save, so you risk wasting the slot and action and leaving the friend still in trouble.

[Galithar]

Bless is still often a poor use of concentration on long adventuring days. You lose an action and a spell slot, gain +20% more damage... Web is far more tactically impactful. And don't try to tell me that casting Web implies a five-minute adventuring day. If you can afford to cast Bless, you can afford to cast Web, unless you're in Tier 1.

The whole first paragraph was only a joke.

And it's not an action and +20% damage. It's an action and an average increase of 12.5% on Hit Chance (or just DPR) AND the same increase in making saves.

Just for fun a fireball deals 8d6 damage, or average of 28 damage. If all three are in the area that averages to a reduction of... surprisingly to be only 5.25 damage mitigated... And that's across all targets. I don't care I still feel good about bless lol. It may not be optimal, but I'll keep using it because it FEELS more effective to me then it may actually be.

But more in line with this discussion my something else would likely be more like Thunder Step. I kept using level 1 Cleric buffs to keep symmetry with what I was arguing against, which honestly was probably a bad move because it didn't highlight my point of the opportunity cost of what your spell known could have been nearly as well. Thunder Step isn't a bad panic button itself, but doesn't work as well if you're not a front line DS Sorcerer like my build is.

[Galithar]

It's worse than just action economy. You can't willingly fail save, so you risk wasting the slot and action and leaving the friend still in trouble.

Again read the portion in parentheses. It was just a joke! Lol I just didn't list ALL the reasons why it was dumb and a bad comparison.

[Fikogu]

Maybe It can change your mind!
The strongest single class!



https://i.pinimg.com/originals/dc/3f/0d/dc3f0db53c3a3d8cca5435bc4fd700d0.gif



https://i.pinimg.com/564x/e7/67/d9/e767d953ed332be069a4f1c1e3ae3d40.jpg
I'm the Sorcerer King! The WARBRINGER!!



Divine Soul Sorcerer 20
Medium humanoid (V.Human), Lawful Neutral
Armor Class 27 (19 Plate Armor +2 Shield +2 Haste +2 Ceremony with his Simulacrum+2 Shimmering Shield), 32 If he uses Shield spell. 37 with 3/4 cover of Giant Eagles
Hit Points 229 (+20 Aid+ 11 (2d20, Heroes' Feast) +18 Inspire Leadership)
Speed 30ft, Fly Speed 50ft
B]
Passive Perception 35 +2d4 (Bless and Battle Inspiration)

The Sorcerer King steals a Warlord's Body (Detail below).
V. Human
STR
20 (WL)
DEX
16 (WL)
CON
18 (WL)
INT
14
WIS
16
CHA
16 +4 (Dark Gift)

Proficiency +6

Saving Throws STR +9 (Warlord), DEX +7 (Warlord), CON +10, Cha+11
+2d4 on saving throws (Bless and Battle Inspiration)


Damage Resistance: Piercing damage, Slashing (Genie's wish)

Damage Immunity: Poison damage

Condition Immunity: Frightein

Spellcasting: DC 19 (8 +6 Proficiency +5 Cha)
Spell attack +11 (+6 Proficiency +5 Charisma)

Attack roll: +11 (+6 Proficiency +5 Str)

The Sorcerer King is an 20th-level caster . Its spellcasting ability is Charisma (spell save DC 19, +11 to hit
with spell attacks).

Cantrips (at will): guidance, mending, resistance, sacred flame, thaumaturgy
1st level (4 slots): Sanctuary, Shield
2nd level (3 slots):
3rd level (3 slots): Haste, Glyph of Warding, Nondetection, Counterspell, Dispel Magic
4th level (3 slots): Freedom of Movement
5th level (3 slots): Planar Binding, Holy Weapon
6th level (2 slots): Heroes' Feast
7th level (2 slots): Conjure Celestial, Regenerate
8th level (1 slot):
9th level (1 slot): Wish, Time Stop, Gate


ACTIONS


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Multiattack = 2 weapon attack, Haste 1 extra attack, Reaction 1 extra attack (Warlord's Legendary action), Warlord's Legendary action +3 extra attack
Total of 7 shots per round. Each hit apply disadvantage on concentration check
The Simulacrum duplicates his attack

Oversized Longbow 600' 1d20 +12 hit +2d4 (Bless casted by Minion, Battle Inspiration by Minion) +2d4 Favored of the Gods
A Coualt change shaped casts Magic Weapon to add +1 hit and damage.

Damage: Average 63 damage per shot, total of 441 average damage per round. (The Simulacrum duplicates it)
Applying Purple Worm Poison (12d6 poison damage)
Oversized longbow (2d6 + 5 STR)
Holy Weapon (2d8)



Coualt's Bless +1d4 attack and saving throw
Coualt's Battle of Inspiration +1d4 attack and saving throw (from Change shape shenanigan)

Items:

Oversized Longbow
Purple Worm Poison



Feature and Spells known:

Some Background Feature
Flexible casting (The Sorcerer can convert spells and/or sorcery points to create higher level spells slots/Sorcery Points)
Metamagic
MM: Quicken Spell
MM: Subtle Spell
MM: Twin Spell
MM: Extend Spell
Divine Magic
Favor Of The Gods
Empowered Healing
Sorcery Recovery
ASIs: Inspire Leadership feat, Observant (Wis, +1 WIS), Prodigy (Perception), Mage Slayer (Applying Disadvantage on CON saving throw), Weapon Master (+1 STR, Longbow), Sharpshooter
Sorcerer 16 (15 +1 Divine Soul Spells Known)



The WARLORD BODY and MOTHER DROW BODY



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Warlord's Body

- The Sorcerer King uses Contact other Plane to know the Name of the creatures that He will summon (Gate).

- Gate, call an Humanoid. Calling a Warlord (Knowing Its name, It’s from Volo).

-Subtle Suggestion allows to cast Subtle Suggestion or Mass Suggestion (Upcasted) to control his mind without reveal spellcasting or an hostile act.

-Take a long rest and cast WISH: Duplicate Magic Jar to steal his Body.

-Share Wish with your Find Greater Steed and to steal a second body.

The Find Greater Steed can steal the body of the Mother Drow.



The CELESTIAL ARMY!!


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-The Sorcerer King has acess to Conjure Celestial, Glyph of Warding Spell, Planar Binding and Subtle Metamagic
-The Sorcerer King casts Glyph of Warding to avoid Conjure Celestial concentration, It costs 200gp.
-The Sorcerer king casts Subtle Wish to duplicate Upcasted Planar Binding Spell, without reveal spellcasting or hostile act. It avoids hostility of the Binded Creature.
-The Sorcerer King calls a Coualt and bind it subtly for 180 days.
Repeat that to create your own army.

Coault Highlight
Damage Immunities Psychic; Bludgeoning, Piercing, and Slashing From Nonmagical Attacks
Innate Spellcasting. The couatl's spellcasting ability is Charisma (spell save DC 14). It can innately cast the following spells, requiring only verbal components: At will: detect evil and good, detect magic, detect thoughts 3/day each: bless, create food and water, cure wounds, lesser restoration, protection from poison, sanctuary, shield 1/day each: dream, greater restoration, scrying
Magic Weapons. The couatl's weapon attacks are magical.
Shielded Mind. The couatl is immune to scrying and to any effect that would sense its emotions, read its thoughts, or detect its location.
Change Shape. The couatl magically polymorphs into a humanoid or beast that has a challenge rating equal to or less than its own, or back into its true form. It reverts to its true form if it dies. Any equipment it is wearing or carrying is absorbed or borne by the new form (the couatl's choice). In a new form, the couatl retains its game statistics and ability to speak, but its AC, movement modes, Strength, Dexterity, and other actions are replaced by those of the new form, and it gains any statistics and capabilities (except class features, legendary actions, and lair actions) that the new form has but that it lacks. If the new form has a bite attack, the couatl can use its bite in that form.


Change Shape. The Coualt assumes really powerful humanoid and beasts
-Warlord of the Archfey ( for Summoning an Annis Hag with Conjure Fey)
-Nilbot (For at will spells)
- Knight (For Inspiration)
- Annis Hag (Really versatile and powerful using Coven Spells to smash the enemies, Wreac Havoc with their spells)
- Quetzalcoatlus (Used As mount, It’s Huge Flying)
- prepared action Darkness spell is useful against "you must see" spells.

Each Coualt calling a Annis Hag to share spells is just scary and versatile!!
The Sorcerer King uses Extended Seeming Spell on them to disguise himself amoung them, Inspire Leadership, Aid and Heroes’ Feast to buff his Army.



The ANIMAL ARMY


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The Sorcerer King uses Wish to duplicate Awaken Spell on a Bat or Stirge. Creating your own army of Tiny Flying creatures.

The Sorcerer King casts Wish duplicating Animal Shapes with DISTANT SPELL.
It allows him to create 8,5x more Giant Eagles than a normal Animal Shapes Spell.
The Simulacrum duplicates it.
The Giant Eagles are mounts of the Sorcerer King and his Celestial Army.
The Sorcerer King uses Inspire Leadership to buff them.




COMBOS

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The Twin Simulacrum

It allows the Sorcerer King to create a Simulacrum of himself and another powerful humanoid (Another Warlord or Mother Drow).

Find Greater Steed and Magic Jar (Personal Spell that shares with it)
It allows him to steal a body of a Warlord or a Mother Matron Drow.

Faultless Tracker
Summon Servant (1/Day). The drow magically summons a retriever or a yochlol. The summoned creature appears in an unoccupied space within 60 feet of its summoner, acts as an ally of its summoner, and can't summon other demons. It remains for 10 minutes, until it or its summoner dies, or until its summoner dismisses it as an action.
Faultless Tracker. The retriever is given a quarry by its master. The quarry can be a specific creature or object the master is personally acquainted with, or it can be a general type of creature or object the master has seen before. The retriever knows the direction and distance to its quarry as long as the two of them are on the same plane of existence. The retriever can have only one such quarry at a time. The retriever also always knows the location of its master.
It allows the Sorcerer King to know the location of the creature that he wants to defeat

Subtle Metamagic allows him to cast spells without reveal himself, Subtle Glyph of Warding allows him to avoid Concentration Spells.

Other allies
Twinned Simulacrum (Himself and a Warlord), Find Greater Steed that assumes a Mother Matron Drow.

Warlord and Mother Matron Drow legendary actions


The warlord can take 3 legendary actions, choosing from the options below. Only one legendary action can be used at a time and only at the end of another creature's turn. The warlord regains spent legendary actions at the start of its turn.

Weapon Attack. The warlord makes a weapon attack.

Command Ally. The warlord targets one ally it can see within 30 feet of it. if the target can see and hear the warlord, the target can make one weapon attack as a reaction and gains advantage on the attack roll.

Frighten Foe (Costs 2 Actions). The warlord targets one enemy it can see within 30 feet of it. If the target can see and hear it, the target must succeed on a DC 16 Wisdom saving throw or be frightened until the end of warlord's next turn.


The drow matron mother can take 3 legendary actions, choosing from the options below. Only one legendary action can be used at a time and only at the end of another creature's turn. The drow matron mother regains spent legendary actions at the start of its turn.

Demon Staff. The drow makes one attack with her demon staff.

Compel Demon (Costs 2 Actions). An allied demon within 30 feet of the drow uses its reaction to make one attack against a target of the drow's choice that she can see.

Cast a Spell (Costs 1–3 Actions). The drow expends a spell slot to cast a 1st-, 2nd-, or 3rd-level spell that she has prepared. Doing so costs 1 legendary action per level of the spell.







NO MAGICAL ITEM, NO DM Dependence, NO Infinite Loops

[MaxWilson]

It's worse than just action economy. You can't willingly fail save, so you risk wasting the slot and action and leaving the friend still in trouble.

That's one opinion, but the rules never say this, and gameworld logic suggests that it cannot be strictly true. A saving throw represents some kind of action that you're taking to mitigate a threat, and if you opt not to take that action, it would be reasonable for a DM to say you auto-failed your save.

If someone Fireballs me and I opt to face it head-on not to dive for cover or look away, because I want to take full damage for some reason (maybe to make the caster feel bad for hurting me), what reasonable DM is going to rule that I somehow take half damage anyway just because I have a high "Dex save bonus"?

Again, the rules never say "you cannot willingly fail a saving throw." Neither do they say you can. It's up to the DM to make a ruling.

[Galithar]

That's one opinion, but the rules never say this, and gameworld logic suggests that it cannot be strictly true. A saving throw represents some kind of action that you're taking to mitigate a threat, and if you opt not to take that action, it would be reasonable for a DM to say you auto-failed your save.

If someone Fireballs me and I opt to face it head-on not to dive for cover or look away, because I want to take full damage for some reason (maybe to make the caster feel bad for hurting me), what reasonable DM is going to rule that I somehow take half damage anyway just because I have a high "Dex save bonus"?

Again, the rules never say "you cannot willingly fail a saving throw." Neither do they say you can. It's up to the DM to make a ruling.

In defense of the 'choice to fail' many abilities that are positive when you are willing have a clause to resist if unwilling. Polymorph, for example, only calls for a save when trying to force it on someone.

I take this to mean that you can't fail to make a saving throw, but if you aren't trying to resist an effect you instead make no saving throw and simply accept the effect.

Banishment for example says "The target must succeed on a Charisma saving throw or..." Thus in my reading if a creature chooses not to make that saving throw then they obviously cannot succeed.

My counterpoint to my own argument however is spells such as Fireball that says "Each creature in a 20-foot radius must make a Dexterity saving throw." Which the RAW lawyer in me says that, at least for this spell, not attempting the save is not allowable under the rules. It says you MUST make A Dex saving throw and then continues with the outcomes of successful and failed rolls.

The anal rules lawyer in me would say that spells like Banishment, that say you must succeed or X, can be accepted. Whereas spells like Fireball, that say you MUST make a saving throw, force you to make a save and then give the outcomes based on the result.

I hope I confused as many people as I helped with this! Haha