DPR Calculation HELP

[Bjarkmundur]

I'm really really really really bad at DPR calculations, and I would love to get some help. I've done the best I can with my (nonexistent) memory of a class I took 11 years ago, and some googling.

If we would compare the following attacks:

Attack 1
+7 vs 14
3d8+8

Attack 2
+7 vs 14
2d8+6

Attack 3
+7 vs 14
Two attacks, both 1d8+6

Attack 4
+12 vs 14
1d8+6

I did my best, but it's not even close the what I got from the Excel DPR Calculator :/
I'm definitely calculating the extra attack wrong, and I don't think I have the crit damage calculations right :(

[Deadandamnation]

I'm really really really really bad at DPR calculations, and I would love to get some help. I've done the best I can with my (nonexistent) memory of a class I took 11 years ago, and some googling.

If we would compare the following attacks:

Attack 1
+7 vs 14
3d8+8

Attack 2
+7 vs 14
2d8+6

Attack 3
+7 vs 14
Two attacks, both 1d8+6

Attack 4
+12 vs 14
1d8+6

I did my best, but it's not even close the what I got from the Excel DPR Calculator :/
I'm definitely calculating the extra attack wrong, and I don't think I have the crit damage calculations right :(

Step 1:

Calculate the 'I Always hit Average Damage'

A) 3d8+8= 4.5*3+8= 20.5
B) 2d8+6= 15
C) 1d8+6= 10.5 (*2 so 21)
D) 1D8+6= 10.5

Step 2:

Calculate the +1 hit weight (but i usually just up the Average by 5% each point)
That's not totally correct but the difference Is not that High.

Cases A, B and C are all the same:
So C get the Highest Average DPR of 21

C vs D (Assuming that the +hit Is not overkill...that happen against low AC where i would hit with a 2)

+12 to hit vs +7 Is a difference of +5

+5 Is +25% average damage
10.5 +25% = a Number near 13

C Is the best by a large margin.

Step 3:

If you want to address in Critical strike you have to take just the Dice Average Damage.

Example: 2d8+8 = Just 9 from the dices.

Than multiply 9 for 5% for each crit chance point 5% for 20, 10% for 19.
Add to the total.

[LudicSavant]

I'm really really really really bad at DPR calculations, and I would love to get some help. I've done the best I can with my (nonexistent) memory of a class I took 11 years ago, and some googling.

If we would compare the following attacks:

Attack 1
+7 vs 14
3d8+8

Attack 2
+7 vs 14
2d8+6

Attack 3
+7 vs 14
Two attacks, both 1d8+6

Attack 4
+12 vs 14
1d8+6

I did my best, but it's not even close the what I got from the Excel DPR Calculator :/
I'm definitely calculating the extra attack wrong, and I don't think I have the crit damage calculations right :(

Use this: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?582779-Comprehensive-DPR-Calculator-(v2-0)

Not only will the sheet do all DPR calculations for you automatically, but the attached Google Doc includes a mathematician's explanations of how to do all of the calculations by hand, in-depth.

[Malbrack]

Attack 1
+7 vs 14
3d8+8


Average roll of d8 is 4.5.

So average damage from 3d8+8 = 13.5+8 = 21.5

Average damage from 6d8+8 (a critical hit) = 35

With a +7 vs 14, a roll of 1-6 misses (30% of the time). 7-19 hit for normal damage (65% of the time). 20 hits for critical damage (5% of the time).

So 30% of the time you do 0. 65% you do an average of 21.5. 5% of the time you do an average of 35.

0 + 21.5(.65) + 35(.05) = 13.975 + 1.75 = 15.725 average damage

[Yunru]

Average roll of d8 is 4.5.

So average damage from 3d8+8 = 13.5+8 = 21.5

Average damage from 6d8+8 (a critical hit) = 35

With a +7 vs 14, a roll of 1-6 misses (30% of the time). 7-19 hit for normal damage (65% of the time). 20 hits for critical damage (5% of the time).

So 30% of the time you do 0. 65% you do an average of 21.5. 5% of the time you do an average of 35.

0 + 21.5(.65) + 35(.05) = 13.975 + 1.75 = 15.725 average damage

Ewwwww... I mean it works, but ew.
Just calculate damage (0.7*21.5) and extra damage from a crit (0.05*13.5).

[Deadandamnation]

Ewwwww... I mean it works, but ew.
Just calculate damage (0.7*21.5) and extra damage from a crit (0.05*13.5).

I don't understand the point of calculating chance to hit, i mean:

Strict DPR usually just factor in numbers and a more complex math in a spreadsheet bring useful matemathic informations.

But that's all, we usually do that against a patchwerk-like figth but to be honest in real games i try to think in a more abstract way.

Being able to hit more than One target, hit more often, hit from distance, hit with advantage...all of those 'circumstances' made the best DPR.

For Example:

Usually Polearms are considered the 'best' DPR weapon, when used in combination with GWM and Polearm Master.

But that's a 2 feat and One Style tax that bring just raw damage to the table.

1d10+15 Is a big hit (16 to 25 damage each) compared to maybe a S&B that's just 1d8+7 (8-15), but s&b have a best chance on land his strikes, best defense to take a valuable position.

What happen when they fight a dragon? Polearm Master should kill him faster (maybe) if he survive that long, s&b should keep fighting longer (that mean more damage from him and the others).

What happen if they fight a swarm of cobolds with 4 hp? A lot of Polearm damage Is wasted, gmw Is usless and become a waste of a feat, would be a lot Better to Just dual-wield a shortsword in that case.

So I'm not saying that using a Polearm Is wrong, Just saying that 'Calculating' Is sometimes a waste of time.

[Bjarkmundur]

So I'm not saying that using a Polearm Is wrong, Just saying that 'Calculating' Is sometimes a waste of time.

It's all about gaining knowledge and applying it correctly.
Good knowledge applied incorrectly leads to incorrect conclusions.

[swamp_slug]

I don't understand the point of calculating chance to hit, i mean:

Strict DPR usually just factor in numbers and a more complex math in a spreadsheet bring useful matemathic informations.

But that's all, we usually do that against a patchwerk-like figth but to be honest in real games i try to think in a more abstract way.

Being able to hit more than One target, hit more often, hit from distance, hit with advantage...all of those 'circumstances' made the best DPR.


Accuracy matters, also DPR is an expression of the expected damage you would do in a round. The actual damage will vary on a round by round basis due to misses, crits and the actual damage roll, however, if you repeated the same round of attacks 1000 times, recorded the result and calculated the average the result would be your DPR for that attack sequence. This is what an empirical DPR calculator will do.

To show how accuracy matters take the GWM feat for example, it gives a large damage boost for the cost of an accuracy penalty, this is a balancing mechanism because both damage and accuracy factor into DPR. It also means that the AC of the target can be a determining factor as to whether it is better to use GWM or not.
Let's say I make an attack at +8 vs AC 16 for 2d6+4 on a hit. 60% of the time I deal 11 damage, 5% 18 damage for a DPR of (0.6*11 + 0.05*18) = 7.5. Applying GWM this equation becomes (0.35*21 + 0.05*28) = 8.75. So vs AC16 it is better to use GWM than not. However, let's now say that my target is in plate armour with a shield for AC 20, the comparison now becomes (0.4*11 + 0.05*18) = 5.3 vs (0.15*21 + 0.05*28) = 4.55, GWM is now a hindrance to your damage output. Without factoring accuracy all you know is that GWM does more damage on a hit than a regular attack. Most players at the table should be able to work out when to use GWM and when not to, however, the DPR calculations will aid your decision with hard numbers.

Considering accuracy also allows you to factor in conditional effects, such as GWM's bonus action attack on a crit, a Barbarian's Brutal Critical or how a Rogue/Fighter multiclass compares to a pure Rogue build for DPR (low SA damage with multiple attacks vs 1 attack for high SA damage).

All of these combined give a much clearer picture of what you can expect a character to put out in damage on a round by round basis, allowing for more informed character decisions.

[Yunru]

Especially if you also work out the variance, although that isn't needed for "bigger" just the personal view on "superior".

[Deadandamnation]

Accuracy matters, also DPR is an expression of the expected damage you would do in a round. The actual damage will vary on a round by round basis due to misses, crits and the actual damage roll, however, if you repeated the same round of attacks 1000 times, recorded the result and calculated the average the result would be your DPR for that attack sequence. This is what an empirical DPR calculator will do.

To show how accuracy matters take the GWM feat for example, it gives a large damage boost for the cost of an accuracy penalty, this is a balancing mechanism because both damage and accuracy factor into DPR. It also means that the AC of the target can be a determining factor as to whether it is better to use GWM or not.
Let's say I make an attack at +8 vs AC 16 for 2d6+4 on a hit. 60% of the time I deal 11 damage, 5% 18 damage for a DPR of (0.6*11 + 0.05*18) = 7.5. Applying GWM this equation becomes (0.35*21 + 0.05*28) = 8.75. So vs AC16 it is better to use GWM than not. However, let's now say that my target is in plate armour with a shield for AC 20, the comparison now becomes (0.4*11 + 0.05*18) = 5.3 vs (0.15*21 + 0.05*28) = 4.55, GWM is now a hindrance to your damage output. Without factoring accuracy all you know is that GWM does more damage on a hit than a regular attack. Most players at the table should be able to work out when to use GWM and when not to, however, the DPR calculations will aid your decision with hard numbers.

Considering accuracy also allows you to factor in conditional effects, such as GWM's bonus action attack on a crit, a Barbarian's Brutal Critical or how a Rogue/Fighter multiclass compares to a pure Rogue build for DPR (low SA damage with multiple attacks vs 1 attack for high SA damage).

All of these combined give a much clearer picture of what you can expect a character to put out in damage on a round by round basis, allowing for more informed character decisions.

I do agree with you basically on anything, your explanantion Is clean and correct...

I'm just trying to point out that DPR Is not something to take as a dogma.
Like in your example of GWM vs 16AC:

The difference bwtween no GWM and yes GWM Is 1/2 DPR... The calculation reccomend than using GWM coz on x strikes you deal more damage.

Let's say that we face a solitaire AC 16 monster with 75 HP.

75/7.5= 10 swings
75/8.5= 8.8 swings

You should be able to kill him in 5 or 4.5 turns, but since you are not adventuring alone you Need to be more flexible.

What if the Monster is the last to act and you the First? Killing him occasionally One turn faster just waste 3 free actions of your 4 man's party.

What if you score a Critical hit but the sorcerer had just casted haste and the Monster had 2 hp remaining?

It's a matter of style not a matter of DPR imho, if you like to play a barbarian who occasionally reap a target with his big axe instead of a precise fighter who dance around and keep them bleeding...

Sry if I went OT too far, the question was about how to calculate it but I think it's been already well answered